Posted by Helen on: 06.05.2006 /
In comment #19 of “I’ll Pray For You” SezMe wrote the following:
I nearly always receive such a statement as an expression of caring and accept it for that alone.
As an atheist, however, I find Jim and KSG’s statements that they would pray behind my back as quite infuriating and insulting. If, as posited, you know my position about god, how about caring about me by respecting my beliefs (or lack thereof). Praying behind my back is deceitful and I think your religion frowns on that. Just leave me out of your conversations with your god.
Of course, I can’t speak for all atheists, but I suspect most would feel as I do.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
1OK you’re off my list
Comment by: Peter Walker
2Anyone: do you think it’s deceiful to pray behind someone’s back?
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I’m really glad SezMe posted this feedback because I think we Christians need to be very cautious about how we word “Praying for others.” It can seem VERY subversive, and I would venture – inappropriate – at times.
I’m reminded of the debacle the Mormon Church got itself into years ago, baptising Jewish Holocaust victims – name by name, checked off of lists from WW2. It was quite an outrage for the Jewish families – for someone to have the audacity to cover a loved one with your own religious spirituality without any permission or even any direct connection!
I don’t want to suggest that praying for an atheist friend is the same as baptising holocaust victims, post-mortem, but it’s a stark reminder of what one’s religious zeal can feel like from the outside.
Really I think it comes down to semantics and the spirit behind it. If I asked a friend if I could pray for them (to be blessed, etc…) I can’t imagine any of them saying “no.” But if I told them I was going to praying each night that they would be converted to my religion – well, that’s a whole different story. Even knowing me, I can’t imagine any of them like that very much.
It’s all about stepping outside of our own paradigms and seeing through the world’s eyes…
Comment by: Peter Walker
3Jim my friend,
Don’t you think the wording “praying behind their backs” is unnecessarily volatile?
Comment by: KSG
4Here’s my response that I posted in the I’ll pray for you” thread
I don’t think praying behind one’s back is deceitful. To deceive is to say one thing and do another.
Comment by: Helen M.
5That’s an excellent point, Peter.
My atheist husband was quite taken aback recently when I mentioned hearing Christians pray that God would make people who aren’t Christians miserable until they ‘come to him [God]‘. Obviously that was behind his back since he never heard them pray it.
I didn’t feel entirely convinced about that prayer myself because if a prayer made my husband miserable, that was not going to have a beneficial impact on my life. It’s hard to be happy if your spouse is miserable (as I expect some of you are aware).
Comment by: Julie Marie
6Wow, Helen – those kinds of prayers stink! Back when I used to pray daily for my sister’s salvation, I would pray that God would send loving people into her pathway, that he would wrap her securely in a safety zone (she lives in Manhattan)…stuff like that. And when she had troubles, I would pray that she would seek him during those times.
But to actually pray for misery – that is really warped ends justifying the means thinking. I can see, if someone thought we were praying like that, they’d ask us to leave us out of their conversations.
Praying for someone without their knowledge does not strike me as decietful (unless, as noted above, your prayers are for misery – that is inappropriate at all times). But of course, if I knew someone really had an aversion to being prayed for, I wouldn’t do it. I’ve got enough people and things to pray for to keep me plenty busy without butting my prayers in where they aren’t wanted.
Comment by: Steve
7I think you could look at this from the point of view of a patient in a hospital. Perhaps there is some new, unproven treatment. The patient thinks it’s a bunch of bunk, maybe even harmful, and refuses it. The family, however, goes behind the patient’s back and asks the doctors to do the treatment. Just because the family thinks the treatment is right doesn’t give them the right to force it upon the patient (I would say).
Comment by: Julie Marie
8I would say you are right Steve
Comment by: Jim Henderson
9No – I think it’s funny and playful
I mean, in reality I would never tell an atheist or anyone I knew it would offend that I would be praying for them behind their backs but I would not hesistate in the least in practicing that- If I wanted to let them know I was praying for them I would ask them or tell them – if they asked me to not pray for them ( like above) I would cease and desist (even in private) but for the most part atheists dont care what we do anyway and one other thing – Since what you and I believe is just a fairytale anyway who cares who we pray to.
I mean hey – this is America – everybody take a deep breath and say thank god and her godless brother that we can all do what we want
Comment by: Peter Walker
10No – I think it’s funny and that some of you take all of this way too seriously
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Touche’ Jim. And when you put it in that light, I have a much easier time swallowing it :) Just remember that there are plenty of Christians who are not only subversive, but manipulative, condescending and underhanded. We probably DO take these issues to seriously, but no more seriously than fundamentalists who have pounded “turn or burn” tactics into the collective subconscious of both believers and those formerly known as “lost.”
Love you man,
Peter
Comment by: Pam Hogeweide
11the way i see it is that sometimes when i have communicated to someone that “I’m praying for you” it can come off as arrogant and uppity…the unspoken message being Dude, you’re a screw-up but don’t worry, I’m talking to Management about you to get you straightened out.”
Having said that, there have been many times that revealing I’ve offered prayers for someone who’s in crisis has communicated care and concern for that person. It’s a gesture of goodwill.
I had a satanist ask me to stop praying for him one time (there’s an interesting story to that). I could not stop praying for him anymore than I could stop the wind from blowing – and that it bothered him was an interesting, perhaps even revealing detail, about his understanding of prayer.
i agree with jim – for an atheist to ask christians not to pray for them is kind of giving power to christian belief in an invisible God. Why does it matter if I sit in an empty room talking out loud to a Being I can’t see about another human being?
Comment by: David S
12If you think being prayed for behind your back is annoying… the Mormons wait until you’re dead and then baptize you into their church.
Comment by: Helen M.
13Btw Peter also mentioned that in comment #2.
Comment by: Eliza
14When prayer is an appeal from one person to God, in private, then while I don’t really want to be prayed for, I have no problem with the person who wants to pray going ahead, by all means. After all, each of us is free and able to think whatever thoughts we want. I would nope that they were kind thoughts and prayers! :)
When prayer is out loud or public, asking a group of people to pray for the “lost” person by name, whether it be to help in a crisis or to have that person be “saved”, then I object to going ahead if the person being prayed for does not want it, or could reasonably be thought not to want it (atheist, Jew, whatever reason)…that goes beyond a one-to-one communication & personal thoughts.
Comment by: Michael H.
15I respect SezMe’s wish not to be prayed for, but Jim’s right – the “pray for X behind her back” thing is just a playful way to describe a good alternative to braining someone with a calfskin-bound Bible.
The thing that should control HOW we pray for people, behind their backs or to their faces, is Jesus’ Great Commandment – treat others as we’d like to be treated. Peter and Helen are on to something valuable – although pain, so says C.S. Lewis, is God’s megaphone, I think it’s unneighborly to ask God to make someone miserable so that they’d become a Christian. And to tell someone that you’re doing so is pretty unwise.
Comment by: Peter Walker
16the “pray for X behind her back” thing is just a playful way to describe a good alternative to braining someone with a calfskin-bound Bible.
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And that playfulness “plays out” much better in a real life, fleshy conversation. In the blogosphere, a glance at that wording can be quite startling, even for churchified-me.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
17Eliza –
What specifically about this Christian practice do you find complicating?
This is a practice they believe is making the world a better place by asking God to help someone they perceive to be in trouble of some sort.
Since all of us hold varying opinons of each other and think others would be better off if they viewed reality thru my eyes and then on what objective basis would you object to this innane (from an atheists perspective) and harmless practice.
I mean I agree with you about the ill conceived intentions of Cs and all but they really believe this stuff so how would you go about coinvincing them to stop doing something they think they are doing an act of obedience to their god?
I guess bottom line I think these kinds of things are side issues. but maybe they arent
Comment by: Helen M.
18I can understand a person not wanting to have other people pray that they will change their beliefs.
But I’m not sure why a person would object to having people pray that they would receive help in a crisis.
Maybe the person would be annoyed if people were only praying and not also helping them – I could see that. But if people were doing both, it’s hard for me to see why the person would mind.
Feel free to explain it to me :)
Comment by: Eliza
19Taking prayer out of the private realm into the public, when the recipient doesn’t want it, could be “dissing” the recipient…imo. Even if the intent is positive.
Extreme example, but it’s the difference between a Mormon sitting at home praying name by name down a list of Holocaust victims – or everyone at their church praying out loud, name by name, down the same list. One is a personal touch, done privately. The other is a statement…even in cases in which it isn’t intended that way…imo of course!
Comment by: KSG
20If praying behind someone’s back is all one can do I’m fine with it but if praying behind someone’s back is all one is willing to do…I think they should just skip. I’ve received the ‘I’m praying and believing God with you’ thing when I had a very real life need and the sympathy giver had at least some ability to help me out and the comment by itself sounded really hollow and very religious.
Comment by: Doreen
21Kind of an aside, but I don’t think the LDS baptize sitting at home quietly. I’m fairly certain they baptize the dead at their temples, which of course are closed to non-Mormons.
Comment by: NCxian
22Having sat through a “prayer meeting” or two where some of what was going on was basically gossiping (“pray for Mary Susan who is having . . . .marital problems” silent oohs and ahhs) I would say there is a huge difference between privately praying behind somebody’s back (which I don’t have any problems with) and publicly praying behind somebody’s back. Most people, even those who believe in prayer, don’t really want their personal stuff aired among people who don’t know them. Even if there is nothing about the request that is a bad reflection on the person being prayed for. It’s just a personal privacy thing, it seems to me.
Comment by: Helen M.
23I suppose that if a person’s wishes are known – and doable – and people publically disregard the person’s wishes, that would be a mark of disrespect towards the person.
Comment by: Karen
24Great point, NC. I’ve seen that too. We’re not supposed to gossip, but if the juicy kid-got-kicked-out-of-school news slips out during prayer time – Oh Well! ;-)
I can remember praying for god to “let Sandy X hit rock bottom if it will get her attention and bring her to the lord” (only, of course, if it was His will. It always felt a little icky to me at the time, and I certainly think it is terrible now.
One more comment: My Jewish cousin came out to California from Connecticut to attend my uncle’s funeral. My uncle’s second wife and daughters are strong fundamentalists, and the funeral was run like an evangelistic service. At one point, everyone was asked to bow his/her head and some people started to pray out loud (this is in a chapel). One of the daughters started to pray for my cousin by name to “accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.”
My cousin grabbed my knee and held it. I looked over at her, and she was white as a sheet, completely mortified. Afterwards, she told me how uncomfortable it was to hear her religious beliefs disrespected in public: “I felt like the Only Jew In the Room.” That, to me, was completely uncalled for, and hurtful to boot.
Comment by: NCxian
25I’ll weigh in to say that I don’t believe I have ever heard anybody pray for something bad to happen to anybody else, even if it was for “evangelistic” reasons. Thanks goodness. That would have applied some mighty slippery grease to my bench!
Comment by: SezMe
26I was a bit surprised by the playful aspect of some of the comments. For me, doing something (just about anything) “behind my back” carries with it a connotation of unhealthy serriptiousness (sp?).
But that is one of the problems with blogging. Text does not carry the full range of meaning that in-person conversation does, even with those annoying, painful emoticons.
Remember my original post said I almost always take a “I’ll pray for you” or “Bless you” in the spirit it is given – meaning, basically, the person cares. No harm, no foul. But, as noted, prayer that becomes prosyletizing or is different. Sounds like none of you here are of that mindset.
We’ll get along famously, then!
Comment by: Helen M.
27Hi SezMe,
I’m glad you came back to find out that the original comment was playfully intended.
We often are playful around here.
Yes indeed.
Not only that but we’re often talking to strangers on the Internet, so we can’t bring prior experience to the interaction that would help us know whether others are being serious or playful.
We’re more of the mindset that it’s up to us to treat you with respect whatever you do or don’t believe. And it’s up to you whether you want to ask those people here who pray, what they believe.
I hope so! You’re certainly welcome to stick around and see.
Comment by: Peter Walker
28Glad to see SezMe back for a little resolution. I agree – text is a pain to decypher.
Comment by: Matt Casper
29Hello,
Matt Casper, Jim’s co-author, here…I can’t say whether or not I agree with SezMe. I, too, am an Atheist (which I grant title-case capitalization just as I do other philosophies/worldviews: Christian, Jew, Hindu, Secular Humanist, etc.).
My response to someone who says “I’ll pray for you,” has typically been “Thanks. ” (Full disclosure: it’s usually my mother–Catholic–who prays for me.) I have never taken it for more than what it is, as I see it: someone thinking about me.
As a non-beliver, I see prayer as a form of meditation beyond anything else. A mantra repeated that soothes one’s emotions, a mental exercise that clears one’s plate, as it were. IMO, getting angry about someone praying for you makes no sense if you’re truly an Atheist…
But for those that invest more in the process of prayer, i.e., my Christian friends, I ask this: how would you feel if a Muslim prayed for you to embrace Jihad? Or if a Jew prayed for you to see that Jesus was not the Messiah?
As a Christian and someone who believes in the power of prayer, how would that make you feel? Would you ask them to stop, or would you feel that, as they don’t follow your rules of God, their prayers are not prayers at all…?
Always Curious,
Matt
Comment by: Helen M.
30Hi Matt – welcome to CatE and thanks for your comments.
SezMe posted an update in comment #26, by the way.
That makes sense to me.
Comment by: Matt Casper
31Hi Helen,
Thanks for the welcome. I am really, really curious about how Christians would feel about, e.g., Jews praying for them to see the light.
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you…”
And for anyone else who’s still reading, in my opnion, Mormons baptising you after you are dead is unrelated to praying for someone.
In the latter case, you’re asking God to act; in the former, you’re doing the acting.
And no one can be baptised without their personal consent (one of the things I get and respect about being “born again”: you make the choice).
Anyway, more later, I hope…
Matt
Comment by: Marty
32I am a Christian – my Mother is a Christian and she is always saying that she is praying for me. I am aware that Mother spends much of her time praying that I will become her kind of Christian – which does not please me. I have suggested to her – that if she is praying for my spiritual direction – that she pray for the highest and best for me rather than praying that I become her kind of Christian. I am keenly aware (and frustrated) that she will still pray for me to be her kind of Christian – deciding that she knows my highest and best – rather than being willing to leave that to God.
Comment by: Peter Walker
33I am really, really curious about how Christians would feel about, e.g., Jews praying for them to see the light.
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Matt, it’s a great question.
I used a similar line of questions to show some Christian high school students why it was unethical to be someone’s friend for the sake of converting them.
“But how can that be bad?” They asked. Of course their intentions were: if Christianity is good, and we believe it is, then being someone’s friend to show them that good is… well… good!
So I flipped it on them:
“How would you feel if you had a Mormon friend (have to be realistic, they have no Buddhist or Muslim classmates in their conservative, rural highschool) who chose to spend time with you BECAUSE they wanted to convert you?”
They didn’t like that.
“But what if they really DID like you and really DID want you be your friend. But along with that friendship, they hoped that someday you might come over to their religion?”
The kids didn’t seem to mind this.
“So it’s ok,” I suggested, “To desire for someone you care about to come to the spiritual conclusions you’ve come to… but maybe it’s NOT all right for you to choose your friends with the INTENTION of changing them.”
I hope it clicked, but I’m not sure.
To answer your question directly, Matt – yes, I believe in the power of prayer. And I even have a tendency to believe God hears everyone, not just Christians (heresy!). Now, whose prayers carry weight, and whose don’t isn’t for me to say. I approach God through Jesus Christ, he is my salvation, and I respectfully pray that truth will set us free – even when it means changing some of our minds (myself included).
I have no problem with my Jewish and Muslim neighbors praying for me or even about me, but like Marty said above, I would hope they would have the RESPECT to pray for my greatest good – not to pray through their motives or intentions.
Comment by: Andrew
34I pray “behind peoples backs” all the time and make no apologies for it.
I don’t think praying for someone without their knowledge comes anywhere near the Mormon baptism for the dead thing.
My private prayers are between me and my God and I will pray for whoever I want or feel led to pray for. :)
BTW I agree – any prayer asking someone to suffer stinks.