Posted by Helen on: 06.05.2006 /
This blog entry was written by Eliza.
From a post by Tom in Sacramento on the DB:
I think my biggest beef with some of the questions atheists throw up (pardon the pun) is that they are just soooo simplistic in their analysis. And my biggest beef with the theology of much of conservative Christendom is that they are just soooo simplistic in their analysis.
Each of us (Atheist, Christian or otherwise) probably has some simple, or at least simply-stated, questions we can’t answer. For many of those questions, it seems to me that people with other beliefs (C or A or other) may find those questions simplistic, and easy to answer…but they probably have different simple/simply-stated questions themselves…that we (A or C or other) would in turn find simplistic and feel we could dismiss with just as quickly.
Trying for an example from “the middle’…Agnostics ask: Does God exist? There may be people here who feel they can answer definitively…some of those (some Christians) would say “Yes!” while others (some Atheists) would say “No!” — and each would presumably feel their answer was so obvious and true. (Many of the atheists here might actually answer something more like “not to my knowledge’ but please bear with this as something of an example.)
I’m guessing that for many of the atheists’ questions, Christians might answer “God” (or something closely related, like: God did it, or the Bible explains it, etc). I’m guessing too that for many of the Christians’ questions, atheists might answer “Nothing” (or something closely related, like: No-one, that’s a myth, etc).
For me as an atheist, some of those simply stated questions are: What caused the big bang? What existed before it? What is the universe expanding into?
And, imagining that some people will be certain the answer is “God”, my next question to them might be: What/who created God?
And one that has me (& maybe others) blogging here, which I’m sorry to state so bluntly but it really is something I can only glimpse the answer to: How can you believe that? ;)
Don’t answer my simple, simply-stated, perhaps simplistic questions. Instead, tell us:
Comment by: Bob
1Mine would be a question that came out of an off-line conversation between TXatheist and me. How can I (xian) read the Bible and find God and you (atheist) read the same Bible and find nothing?
There’s an easy answer that I am wholly uncomfortable with: God revealed Himself to me and not you.
Comment by: Eliza
2Bob, would it be fair to say that’s another question for you? “Why did God reveal himself to me and not to you?”
Comment by: Eliza
3(Sorry! no offense intended w/ lower case h - should have typed: “….Himself…”
Comment by: Bob
4Right, Eliza. Thus easy answer.
Comment by: jim
5Eliza- great question “Why did God reveal himself to me and not to you?”
This proposition that god reveals himself to some and not to others is born out of a hyper deterministic view of reality which while some (and millions do) may find intellectually workable - I don’t
I can only offer half of an answer…
Although I haven’t thought about it that way my answer would have to be (sorry Helen, i know we’re supposed to be asking questions) - when I intuited that god was purusing me I responded -
I did however (voluntarily) place myself in an environment where I perceived I could test the possibility of his/her existence for a limited amount of time which of course is not required to “run into god” but I did it because some friends wanted me to and I wanted to hang out with them.
Comment by: Helen M.
6This is an interesting topic - thanks Eliza.
When I was thinking more often about God’s role in my life and those I cared about, I often had ‘Why?’ questions that I could state simply, but didn’t have easy answers to. ‘Why did God reveal himself to me and not to this person I cared a lot about’? was definitely one of them. Also, ‘Why did God allow this suffering in someone’s life?’
For me the answers were so hard that I preferred to take refuge in “The more you trust, the less you need to know”. I do believe this is true. But I also believe it’s wise not to trust unless we have at least some basis for trusting.
Recently I have had many questions along the lines of “If the Bible is true, why…?” or “If what Evangelical Christians say is true, why…?” I know many Christians have answers to these and I know the answers (I say this because when they tell me their answers, I’ve heard them before). But their answers just don’t work for me the way they used to.
Comment by: Bob
7Just thinking out loud…
Are there any “why” questions that have an end? It’s so easy to play the 3 year old and ask “why?” ad infinitum. No matter how much theology or science you quote along the way, there are only two destinations for this, IMO: “I don’t know” and “that’s just the way it is”. (Which really are the same answer; differing only in degree of humility.)
Comment by: Jim Henderson
8Casper and I went to church TWICE this weekend. Both times we were approached following the service by people who wanted to know why we were typing so furiously on our laptops ( I wanted to say - have you ever heard of a DEADLINE).
Our response is - we’re writing a book together - He;s an atheist and I’m a christian and we’re writing about what it’s like to go to church together - how our experiences are similar and different.
At that point they began to “go to work” on Casper ( not sure why they ignore me) and I start taking notes.
One team of three used the bible to reason with Casper (who doesn’t think it is any more special than a telephone book) - Look right here in John 20:?? it says “If we wrote down all that Jesus did there wouldn;t be enough room in the whole world for all the books” ( the WHOLE world- I thought), am supposed to take THAT literally?
It’s interesting to hear people say the very same things I once said in a very convincing tone and know how unconvincing it sounds to Casper-
Too many simple answers - they asked Casper enough questions to make him “feel” iike they cared and theyn went into preaching mode
Comment by: Helen M.
9Jim, it’s interesting to hear a quick update about how your project with Matt.
Hopefully that difference between his and your church experiences is going to get mentioned in the book ;)
Comment by: Julie Marei
10I’m thinking now the expectation that we can hit on just the right answer is missing the point. In other areas we’ve (as humans) found that the journey is more than half the fun.
If we can tolerate only simple answers then we don’t get much of a journey, do we?
My question now is why are so many people (and I include my former FE self) willing to settle for the simple answers someone else gives? Answers that make big questions little.
Comment by: Eliza
11Great comments, you guys!
Julie Marie, I like the way you’re looking at it - differently than I did - probing & exploring can be more interesting than getting a simple answer - & you wonder too
I like that - why settle for answers that make big questions little? I wasn’t wanting anyone to argue over “the” answers, but…maybe people (all of us) have different comfort levels with whether or not their questions have straightforward answers…and also which of their questions have straightforward answers.
Comment by: Eliza
12Bob said in #7:
Yes, that’s a very good point. But does that mean we shouldn’t ask them (well, at least the first round or two ;) )? It’s seems like part of being human. And sometimes the 3-year-old human has “simple questions” that, again on the first round or two at least, really get to the heart of something - they ask about things we take for granted, that we don’t even question any more or that we think we know the answer to (but then realize it’s hard to explain). “Out of the mouths of babes…” :)
Comment by: Jule Marie
13that phrase has made me smile now for the last 3 years. I have a VERY smart, strong willed, niece who, at the time, was 3. She has an equally smart, older brother. The ONLY person my niece will take anything less than a fully explanatory answer from is her brother. (they keep my sister on her toes!) I’ve heard it:
but WHHHYYYY Nathan?
that’s just the way it is Maggie.
Oh. Ok Nathan.
Comment by: Bob
14To beat the 3 year old analogy to death… When a 3 year old asks, they want to know. When adults ask, we often already know the answer–or the lack thereof–and we’re just seeking to upset (as in “tip over their apple cart”) the other person.
We need to ask these questions and spend time pondering their answers but only in a way that changes us rather than challenges another.
Both answers–”I don’t know” and “that’s the way it is”– can have a profound impact on a person’s life.
Comment by: KSG
15Hey Jim, Two church services in one day? That must have been tough for a OAMC guy such as yourself.
Re. Bob’s comments in #14… It’s interesting to notice that motives are attached to questions. Jesus often responded to questions with questions because he knew that the questioner’s motives were (ironicly) questionable.
I recall hearing two preachers make comments regarding questions…
…the 1st preacher said that Xians are answering questions that non-Xians aren’t asking (Xians are answering the wrong questions)
…the other preacher made the comment (in reference to counselling) that people should ask the councellor “If you were me, what questions should I be asking?”
I’ve often wondered if…
A) I’m giving answers to questions that are not being asked
B) I’m asking the wrong questions
Comment by: Eliza
16I feel like the questions I ask myself, or of my “faith” (science, skeptical inquiry) are the ones in the opening message of this thread:
And those feel basically like the questions of a 3-year-old - because in my “faith” system, we don’t just know.
But the question I added, which would come to mind if someone answered my “simple” questions with an answer clear to him/her but not to me, is different - it’s not a question of mine at all, but, as Bob said, a challenge - a question asked because I already have a point of view:What/who created God? And, as written and especially if stated in certain tone, each of us can challenge anyone different with:
(Hopefully we don’t, too much, since we’re here to talk all this over!)
And then Jim points out in #8 another kind of simple questions - an overture to a listen-to-me lecture!
Jim - I could imagine people asked questions, with both of you tapping on your laptops during church! Is that something that is “done”? ;)
Comment by: KSG
17Sorry, I’m not Jim, but I had to respond
In my church… all the time. (sometimes I think it’s a gadget war).
Comment by: Jim Henderson
18Tell me about it - I told Casper that by the time we get done with this we;ll both be glad that we are getting paid to do this
Helen - Yes Caspers experiences will be the primary feature of the book
KSG - If you come to our conference in Seattle it will look like a laptop conference- the thing thats cool about that is people can check what your critics are saying about your big idea while you talk and then IM them to us and we ask the speakers to respond
Comment by: Eliza
19At a conference in Seattle, I can see it as a good use of technology. But in church? Now I’ve heard everything!
Simple question KSG ;) - what are people using their laptops for at your church? (The ones who aren’t gathering info for their book, that is!)
Comment by: Eliza
20looking back - glad I didn’t ask it as “why are people using their laptops during church?” because then someone would have said “that’s just the way it is, Eliza…” :)
Comment by: Jule Marie
21certainly it must be to check the biblical references and compare translations to ensure they are getting the proper message intended for them.
I’m sure thats it. Yeah, I’m sure.
Comment by: KSG
22Ha ha ha, I’ll just choose to believe that they are taking study notes and using it for their Bible.
Comment by: Helen M.
23Maybe they’re reading and posting on blogs on the Internet ;)
Comment by: KSG
24Hey, speaking of doing other things with your time while in church… that reminds me of a story my dad told me.
As a teen my dad sang in the choir of his Mennonite church (which his dad pastored), so he was sitting in the choir during the sermon and the guy beside him was using the sermon time to catch up on some sleep, so my dad (being the joker he is) elbowed the guy and whispered that the pastor had just asked him to say a closing prayer… so right in the middle of the sermon this guy stands up and starts to pray the closing prayer.
Needless to say it was an embarrassing moment, but I doubt that the guy slept in church again (at least not for a while, or at least not while sitting beside my dad).
Comment by: Matt Casper
25Hello…
Yeah, Jim and I had a great time at the mega and mini-mega.
We talked about assumptions people make (”you’re in church…so when did you come to Christ?”), songs people sing (”Hope Is Everything…” it is? does hope MTWABP?), and things people say (”I became a Christian because I can go to heaven my first time around; if I stayed a Hindu, I’d have to wait a billion years”… “Wow: sounds like you’re switching health plans or something”).
To me, I realized that saying “I am an Atheist” is HUGE. So many visitors who have not joined the church are on some sort of spiritual mission–I was raised Catholic and am seeimg what this new church is all about…I am not sure whether God exists anymore…I am a seeker.
To say, “I don’t believe in God at all” in the House of God really seems to shock people: A LOT.
It made me think about this: when did I start calling myself an Atheist? Why does the word still sound so “dirty” to people, myself included (to a lesser extent, of course). It’s a worldview, not a curseword, right?
People seem to want to hear that you’re Agnostic, not Atheist. But I always honestly leaven my statement by saying “I am currently an Atheist.” Why? Because I am open to learning something that changes how I feel.
And I think that’s what any open-minded, thinking person would say about most any philosophical/political position they take…
More later, of course…
Open-mindedly, currently Atheistically yours,
Matt
Comment by: Lisa W.
26I think it is interesting that Xians are more comfortable when Atheists are more uncertain (agnostic) and Atheists are more comfortable when Xians are more uncertain (open and questioning). The difference, it seems to me, is that Xians see the uncertainty in others as a weakness and an opportunity to change the other’s mind/heart where as the Atheists/Agnostics see uncertainty as a strength and just want to have a sane conversation.