Posted by Helen on: 06.06.2006 /
David S wrote this on the discussion board yesterday:
Atheists don’t have a story that explains all the evidence. We live in doubt and uncertainty because we’re not willing to accept explanations that appear no better or different than wishful thinking. Almost nothing we believe is held sacrosanct. We keep an open mind knowing anything might change as logic, reason, observation, etc. leads us to new conclusions. This is because we know we don’t have an objective basis for The Truth so must use the best tools we’ve found to help us find truth.
You might think we both just believe our own “stories” but I don’t see these positions as even remotely similar. One believes a fixed “story”, the other accepts doubt and uncertainty to embrace a continually evolving process of discovery.
Comment by: Julie Marie
1I don’t see anything “fixed” about my Christianity. As my understanding of God changes, the story evolves - for example, my understanding of the Abraham/Isaac story has evolved from the difficult to swallow “God was testing Abraham’s obedience” to a view that God stopped Abraham from carrying out a culturally acceptable but abhorrent practice, provided a substitute, and thus created a teaching moment upon which he could later build as he taught humanity what worship and sacrifce really entail.
I live with plenty of uncertainty about the mystery of God, the crucifixion, resurrection, the trinity..the thought that I’ve got all that hammerred out and fixed in my mind in an orderly fashion is erroneous.
The only thing fixed about the story is the main character. As my understanding of him grows, my story evolves.
Comment by: David S
2Julie Marie, it sounds like it’s your understanding of the story that’s growing, not the story.
Comment by: Helen M.
3Good point.
David, what if a Christian responded: “Yes, that’s exactly what happens. The story is perfect but our story changes as our understanding of The story improves.”
Comment by: Eliza
4that’s what I’d say a skeptic’s view is - not that our story is doubt and uncertainty, but that there is A (The) truth (set of rules) of how the universe works, and A (The) true history of the universe, and our story of it changes as our understanding of The story improves…
Comment by: Bob
5Don’t mean to argue but the Christian Story is not a set of rules or an explanation of how the universe works. If we’re looking at it that way we’re missing the point, IMO.
Julie alluded to it in her original response (emphasis mine),
The Christian Story isn’t about explaining all things, it is about understanding and being transformed by the Main Character.
Comment by: Bob
6I like Helen (#3) and Eliza’s (#4) summaries to this point.
But I would point out that the Christian story is about understanding the Main Character (as Julie alluded in comment #1) and the atheist story is about understanding the universe/physical world.
Not an apples to apples thing…but not necessarily incompatible.
Comment by: KSG
7This reminds me of a Native Studies class in university… the prof asked us to define fact and truth and to relay to the class which had greater value in society. It was an interesting exchange as students divided themselves between either FACT or TRUTH. Some students said that the truth was a subjective opinion based on observation while the facts relayed a more acurate assessment since it couldn’t be manipulated by people’s observations. Other students said that truth was beyond people’s opinion and that the facts while accurate were continually changing. In other words all the students essentially agreed with each other, just that they were using different definitions to come to the same conclusions.
This seems to be a similar exercise…
My definition of the truth is… an absolute, uncorruptable by either time or circumstance. The truth never changes, it is simply my understanding of the truth or interpretation of the truth that changes.
So as an Xian I would say I have an evolving understanding of the truth.
Comment by: Lisa W.
8KSG: very articulate. thank you for putting your thoughts into words.
Comment by: Helen M.
9Interesting. I hadn’t thought of it that way. Thanks Eliza.
Comment by: Helen M.
10Bob, isn’t it a both/and rather than an either/or, to some extent?
I’m not trying to say that the Christian story exhaustively explains all things. But Christians do believe it explains some important things, don’t they? About humans, for example?
Comment by: Michael H.
11I really appreciate David S’s willingness as an atheist to say that he doesn’t have a story that covers all the bases.
On a hot summer day in a dusty classroom, a professor convinced me that truth is most often found in the tension betweeen what appear to be two opposite ideas. So I think the Christian story is, in a sense, fixed. God existed before time and space. Then God created all that is seen and unseen. God acted in history. Jesus was born, lived, died and rose. The church has a history. But the Christian story is also very dynamic and everchanging. It’s up for grabs HOW God made all that is seen and unseen. It’s easy to see the evolution of human understandings of God, both in the Bible and other sources. And for more than 2K years now, people have been trying to understand and express in their lives the meaning and significance of Jesus’ life, death and resurrection. So I vote for “fixed and evolving
Comment by: Michael H.
12Doubt is good. For me, doubt has been an important source as my spiritual faith has developed. According to James Fowler, everyone (Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, atheist, etc.) goes through stages of faith development. From acceptance of faith transmitted by authority figures (parents, clergy) we pass into a stage of doubt and rejection of inherited faith. And by a process of questioning and doubting, we arrive at a faith we own.
I think this applies to everyone, not just theists. But if the process is different for atheists, please set me straight on that.
Comment by: Bob
13Helen in #10 wrote:
The Christian story explains a human’s relationship to the Main Character and how that plays out in his/her relationship to others and creation. If you’re referring to that as “some important things” then I agree. Those elements are very clear (fixed?) in the Story.
As long as we stay founded in this context, we can begin to explore the both/and elements of explanation of the universe and sets of rules. But outside of that context, we begin to get into trouble–intolerance, forced ignorance, legalism, etc.
For example, take the charge given to Adam and Eve in the garden to rule over all the animals of the earth and subdue them. Taken out of the context of the Story, this could mean exploit natural resources and animals as lesser entities and use them for whatever you want. Taken in the context of the Story, it means you are responsible for the health and well-being of all of creation. Care for it and make sure that all life is honored.
IMO, the atheist story is concerned with physical evidence, observations, measurements, and mechanics. The Christian story is concerned with how those elements are to be treated. (Not to say it hasn’t been improperly applied at times…)
Comment by: Julie Marie
14David S writes:
I guess that is a fair statement. But growing understanding does change the story too, I think. In my earlier example of Abraham/Isaac my interpretive change altered completely the nature of God from a God obsessed with blind unthinking obedience to a God who was making his first dramatic step in moving barbaric people away from their detestable rituals.
The meaning of the actions changed, and for me that changed the story itself. And of course, that has implications for my story as well.
Comment by: Helen M.
15Hi Michael - thanks for your comments and welcome to CatE.
In my experience, people who start with similar beliefs in God can end up in very different places spiritually as a result of going through a time of doubt. Some find a resolution to their doubt which restores their former faith - and probably deepens it. Others find no resolution. Their doubt increases and solidifies into a settled rejection of what they used to believe. Their doubt may not take them all the way to atheism; they may end up agnostics. Or they may continue to believe in God but their belief will look much different from how it used to.
I’m would be surprised if atheists would be happy with saying they own any faith ;) You’d probably need to find a different way of saying that even if they agree with you that a process of questioning and doubting led their thinking to where it is today!
Comment by: Peter In PA
16Well, for me… I think the “Story” is finished, and it will take me all my life to “read just a little of it.” My faith isn’t necessarily evolving, but it does change and grow over time. I believe some things differently as a Xian than I did 25 years ago.
I love the opening verse of U2s “City of Blinding Lights” on this topic.
Comment by: TxNewswoman
17Howdy:
The cover story of the Spring 2006 issue of the UU World (magazine of the Unitarian Universalist Association) was The Wonder of Evolution,” and features a look at Michael Dowd and science writer Connie Barlow, the Unitarian Universalist husband-and-wife team who call themselves evolutionary evangelists. For the last three years they have been on the road, telling what they call the Great Story, (TheGreatStory.org) the 13.7-billion-year story of the evolution of the universe, based on science yet infused with sacred meaning and awe.
Comment by: TxNewswoman
18Article link got dropped off
http://www.uuworld.org/ideas/articles/thewonderofevolution2679.shtml
Comment by: Helen M.
19Thanks for that link, TXNewswoman. Welcome to CatE!
Comment by: Eliza
20Yes, thanks - that’s a neat article!
Comment by: Julie Marie
21very interesting article, thanks! I’d like to hear them speak in person.
Comment by: NCxian
22From TxNewswoman’s article:
I think these guys are onto something with this. So many times, our discussions here and on the DB wind up with some discussion of the awe of “creation”/”natural world”, and both As and Cs seem to find something in that that feels right to them.
I am surprised that I have never heard anything about this Great Story movement, given its apparently long history.
I will definitely be trying on the “nesting doll” view of God for a while to see how it fits into my personal theology.
Thanks, TxNw, and welcome!