Posted by Helen on: 06.07.2006 /
I received an e-mail recently which included the following statement:
I think you [...] know in your heart[] that God is truth, and the farther you move away from that the more adamantly you have to deny it, more to convince yourself than to convince others.
What I thought I knew about myself was: I don’t know whether God is truth or even whether God is.
Evidently, this person thinks they know me better than I know myself.
Comment by: Eliza
1Does my mom count? ;) Otherwise, if it has happened it has been someone I thought was totally off-base. (I can’t think of any recent examples, but I think there are some from years ago.)
I’m one of those ornery types. I’m an introvert, & self-reflective to an extent, and I’m pretty darn sure I know myself better than anyone knows me…especially someone outside my family. Unless there really seemed to be a kernel of truth right off the bat in what someone told me about myself, I’d decide that they were…well, off-base. If they were using their assumption about me to make a pointed comment I thought was not valid, like your example Helen, I’d think they were full of it (or, at least, rhymes with “it”). I might think about why they came to that conclusion – did they misinterpret what they saw/heard in me, or perhaps I wasn’t clear in something I said, or…perhaps they are projecting their own bias/worldview on me. Anyway, that’s my take on it!
Comment by: Eliza
2The comment you received by email can never be wrong, in the writer’s view, can it? “Methinks thou dost protest too much.” The person knows you know that God is truth, and any denial you might make is simply your attempt to convince yourself, despite what you really know to be true. Now, try to deny that! You can’t, at least not in the set of conditions the emailer has set up for you.
I don’t know what this email was in response to, but in what I read that you’ve written, Helen, I don’t hear you “more adamantly” denying God…but instead wondering, not convinced either way necessarily. So, making my own psychological evaluation of the email writer (possibly unwarranted, but hey that’s the way it goes) – I’m thinking this person is feeling threatened.
Comment by: Helen M.
3Let’s think things about the person and stubbornly hold to what we think whether the person thinks they’re true of himself/herself or not! ;)
Comment by: Helen M.
4The comment was part of a general plea to me to ‘return to God’, from a person who has read some of my posts/comments.
I respect that they are well-intentioned and care and want what they believe is best for me.
I was a bit taken aback when they got to the point of sharing that they think they knew me better than I know myself. Oh well.
Comment by: isaone
5I actually would say that yes it is generally true that other people’s view of me is more exactly clear than my own since their vision is not clouded by my efforts to view myself as I “should’ or “want to’ be, however I must add two caveats.
1. This is only true if the other person is giving an honest evaluation and not driven by their own motive to slant in one direction or the other. I completely agree with Eliza that your writer is frightened to admit to the chance that their own beliefs might not be correct. Their opinion is not honestly given and therefore not to be listened to.
2. Anytime such information is given without being asked for it is useless. Even if it is technically correct and clearer than my own understanding it is only when I have openly asked for someone’s advice that there is any hope of me actually hearing what is said deeply
Comment by: Eliza
6I think part of what strikes me here is not just that someone is saying they know you better than you know yourself, they are presuming to tell you “what you know in your heart”. OK, so that might be a trite phrase, but still it seems like an unsupportable claim. Someone else can make an observation about you, but that’s different than telling you what you know deep in yourself. That’s just projection, or wishful thinking, or a thinly disguised admonishment, imo. And I say phooey to that!
Going to “the Edge” in the conversation – I’ll comment that a belief system in which responses to non-belief or doubt are already figured out, is one which has really figured out how to keep itself going (using a meme analogy). Non-belief or serious doubt is said to be (1) an impossibility (as the emailer indicated to you – your doubt cannot be real doubt), (2) evil (from the devil, etc), or (3) not to be done (don’t test God, worst sin is blasphemy, etc). It’s supposed to be hard to against those iron-clad truths, especially given the possible consequences, eh? ;)
Comment by: Helen M.
7I maybe should mention that the original comment was applied to ‘atheists’ as well as me. I [...]ed that part out to keep it simpler.
I’ll send the person a link to this thread so they can see how people are reacting to their comment. I don’t know whether the person will respond or not.
Comment by: julie marie
8ack! the only person who has ever done this with me was so off base it was shocking. I find it a very arrogant thing to do, actually. Easier and less bothersome, internally, to pronounce the “Truth” of someone elses heart than really get to know them, and then, once you do…if you believe they are being self deceptive, talk to them, help them out with questions, so they can discover, for themselves, what they really believe/think. For myself, I know when I am confused and when I am clear about something.
I’ve had, thus far, two friends who have taken the questioning approach when they were concerned about where my heart has gone lately. both have come away from the conversations at peace.
and as far as someone who knows you only from the DB…not qualified to pronounce truth about you. even for someone who has been as open as you have been on the board, Helen…it would be presumptuous of anyone to claim you are being self deceptive. imo. Those kinds of insights are hard enough to come by when you are in living, breathing relationship with someone. And to then generalize an insight to an entire population, well, that is just a lazy excuse for psychological input.
Comment by: Karen
9Helen,
This reminds me of the kind of situation I used to run into where another person presumed to give me a “word from god” (usually about my conduct or attitude) that I basically HAD to accept unless I called the person a liar. Which I couldn’t do to a brother or sister in Christ.
And I would have had the same problems with boundaries here as I would have had once with the “prophetic team” that you encountered at the Vineyard.
When you’re in a very stringent, authority-controlled belief system, it’s second nature to concede power to others. That’s why it was difficult for me to set boundaries when someone told me “God told me to tell you (yadda yadda).”
Now, I would say to your email buddy: “I really know myself quite well, thanks very much. But if I want your opinion on what’s in my heart, I’ll ask!” ;-)
Comment by: Doreen
10Helen,
When I first read your post, I was very taken aback. I would be really uncomfortable with someone telling me that he/she thinks he/she knows what is in my heart. That is so personal, much more so than saying that he/she knows what’s in your head!
The only 2 people I know who know me as well (and sometimes better) than I know myself are my mom and my partner. And I’m not sure they would say they always know what’s in my heart!
True friends may sometimes “call me” on what’s in my heart (or my head for that matter), but it would never be via email.
This whole business of claiming to know someone else is a slippery slope. I mean, how many times when they ask the neighbor of the murderer does the neighbor say, “Oh yes, he was weird. I knew he was sick. He was a walking timebomb.” The neighbors always say what a quiet person or nice person the accused is.
I might be tempted to say “a couple of ventricles, an aorta….”
:
doreen
Comment by: Bruce
11I had a conversation today with my friend (and coach). He made a comment about me and how I process the information he gives me. What he said might have been considered to be a judgment, because I’ve never actually said how I felt about that.
But, he was dead right. I thought to myself, “Wow, he really knows me.”
A guy that was a member of the last church I was at recently told me that he never imagined that I would be doing what I am doing right now–starting a new church. His assumptions about me were dead wrong.
This blogversation has made me ask what the difference was between the two assumptions/judgments made about me. Both people know me and have observed my life. But both really knew me to wildly varying degrees. And I think the difference is a matter of listening.
I would never take the second person seriously. If I wanted someone to assess my character or performance, I’d go to the first person. He really knows me.
Bruce L.
Comment by: Helen M.
12I agree that it’s often a matter of listening.
In the situation my blog entry is about, the other person did listen, but only long enough to dismiss and disagree with what I said about myself.
I don’t know if there’s a word for that other than ‘listening’. Maybe there should be! ;)
Comment by: julie marie
13I’ve heard that kind of listening called
waiting to talk
Comment by: Helen M.
14Yes, me too. In fact maybe you heard it from me! I think I did post about that on the eBay atheist blog recently.