Posted by Helen on: 06.12.2006 /
Matt Casper first posted this as comment #25 of Simple Questions
Hello…
Yeah, Jim and I had a great time at the mega and mini-mega.
We talked about assumptions people make (”you’re in church…so when did you come to Christ?”), songs people sing (”Hope Is Everything…” it is? does hope MTWABP?), and things people say (”I became a Christian because I can go to heaven my first time around; if I stayed a Hindu, I’d have to wait a billion years”… “Wow: sounds like you’re switching health plans or something”).
To me, I realized that saying “I am an Atheist” is HUGE. So many visitors who have not joined the church are on some sort of spiritual mission—I was raised Catholic and am seeimg what this new church is all about…I am not sure whether God exists anymore…I am a seeker.
To say, “I don’t believe in God at all” in the House of God really seems to shock people: A LOT.
It made me think about this: when did I start calling myself an Atheist? Why does the word still sound so “dirty” to people, myself included (to a lesser extent, of course). It’s a worldview, not a curseword, right?
People seem to want to hear that you’re Agnostic, not Atheist. But I always honestly leaven my statement by saying “I am currently an Atheist.” Why? Because I am open to learning something that changes how I feel.
And I think that’s what any open-minded, thinking person would say about most any philosophical/political position they take…
More later, of course…
Open-mindedly, currently Atheistically yours,
Matt
Comment by: Helen M.
1 06/12/06 4:42 PM | Comment Link |Posted by Lisa W. on Simple Questions comment #26 as a response to Matt:
I think it is interesting that Xians are more comfortable when Atheists are more uncertain (agnostic) and Atheists are more comfortable when Xians are more uncertain (open and questioning). The difference, it seems to me, is that Xians see the uncertainty in others as a weakness and an opportunity to change the other’s mind/heart where as the Atheists/Agnostics see uncertainty as a strength and just want to have a sane conversation.
Comment by: Helen M.
2 06/12/06 4:46 PM | Comment Link |Very interesting - thanks, Lisa.
Comment by: Pam Hogeweide
3 06/12/06 8:54 PM | Comment Link |hey matt, well at least you’re not introducing yourself as a satanist! i think that would illicit an even stronger reaction than you are already experiencing.
I wonder if the responses are somewhat determined by geography, and even denomination.
So Matt, has anyone tried to preach at you and convert you when you reveal you don’t believe in God?
Comment by: Peter Walker
4 06/12/06 11:13 PM | Comment Link |hey matt, well at least you’re not introducing yourself as a satanist!
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Funny, I had a friend in high school who was a Satanist… or at least, he claimed to be for shock value. Really, I think he just enjoyed Marilyn Manson and resonated with a slightly post-Cobain disillusionment.
I’ve met a couple teenage Wiccans who seemed to use their newfound beliefs as more of a “safety test” for others: if you don’t blink or recoil when they tell you they’re Wiccans, then you might be safe to talk to.
It is interesting, what Lisa said, Matt. In reading your comments here, I have no doubt that you are a thinking, flexible, open-minded atheist. But I will say that in my experience, my friends who are atheists are as “fundamentalist” as my… well… fundamentalist friends. Though I am a “lifer” Christian, I tend to have more in common with my agnostic friends than the polar Christians and anti-religious… but that’s the difference: my experience with the word “atheist” has most commonly been “anti-Christian.” Not that I can blame them, but it’s a good reminder of how much baggage words carry.
Thanks for your comments about Saddleback. Good stuff to ponder. I have to admit (probably judgmentally so) that trading Hinduism for Christianity seems like a fairly shallow way of getting a bigger bang for one’s buck.
Comment by: Doreen
5 06/13/06 9:00 AM | Comment Link |Thanks for your post Matt. It reminded me of the reaction I got at seminary before I accepted Christ when I told people I was not a Christian. One student in my convenant discipleship group asked the prof to move to a different group because she didn’t want to be in a group with a non-believer. (Much to his credit, the prof said no.)
I’m still more questioning than many other students. For example, last fall in “teaching the Bible” class I asked my prof “If the Bible is supposed to be the word of God, why is it contradictory in so many places.” She snapped back, “It IS the word of God!” Needless to say, that answer was not helpful.
My limited experience with self-described atheists has not been positive, so I am enjoying “meeting” atheists here.
doreen
Comment by: Helen M.
6 06/13/06 9:29 AM | Comment Link |I just listened to the recordings of Pastor Tim talking with Hemant (which were very interesting - I highly recommend them).
Near the end of the third conversation, Pastor Tim commented that his experience of/assumption about atheists had been that they were more dogmatic than Hemant.
I suppose maybe that’s why, Matt - i.e. Christians assume agnostics are open to the possibility God exists and they assume atheists aren’t.
Comment by: Matt Casper
7 06/13/06 4:33 PM | Comment Link |There seems to be a theme here…
Pam: yes, they have. It was basically flinging verse at me, and it was a prime example of talking AT someone rather than TO someone. It was ineffective and, IMO, obnoxious.
Doreen: your prof delivered a prime example of “circular logic.” E.g., it’s true because it’s true, and because it’s true, it must be true. Yep! No arguing with that!
Peter: it’s true, some people confuse being Atheist with being “anti Christian,” or “anti-religion.” I’m neither of those. That would imply that Atheism is some sort of belief system, when it’s not. It’s simply non-belief.
More later, as always…
Comment by: Peter Walker
8 06/13/06 10:40 PM | Comment Link |Peter: it’s true, some people confuse being Atheist with being “anti Christian,” or “anti-religion.” I’m neither of those. That would imply that Atheism is some sort of belief system, when it’s not. It’s simply non-belief.
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Thanks Matt. Good stuff.
Comment by: Eliza
9 06/16/06 2:29 PM | Comment Link |Doreen in #6 above said:
And Matt in #7 above said:
Besides experience with strident anti-religious atheists, it seems to me that the negative view of atheists may stem right from the Bible…imo. Psalms 14:1 and 53:1 say “the fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’”, but the later epistles get pretty vituperative. My understanding is that these were written to warn early Christians against “false” Christian teachers, including gnostics, but they can be read as warning about anyone other than true believers.
For example, 2 Peter 2 is an entire chapter about false prophets and blasphemers, & paints a bunch of negative pictures (for example, 2 Peter 2:22: “what the true proverb says has happened to them: ‘The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.’”
1 John 2:22 says, “Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.”
2 John verse 7 says “For may deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.”
3 John talks about “wicked nonsense” from someone who does not acknowledge the Church’s authority. And the Letter of Jude talks about “scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.”
I don’t know how much “coverage” these passages get in the various Christian churches, but anyone who has been through seminary would probably have read them, & I wonder if these passages influence their portrayal of atheists in their teachings of others…