Posted by Helen on: 06.22.2006 /
Lisa posted the following comment today on “How to Irritate an Atheist“:
I would like to see a list of the 10 things Atheists LIKE hearing from Christians… sincerely.
Conversely, I would like to see a list of the 10 things Christians LIKE hearing from Atheists… sincerely.
So, what you all think? (You don’t need to come up with 10 things each)
If you don’t fit neatly into ‘Christian’ or ‘atheist’ that’s fine (I can relate ;)). Just share what you’d like to hear from someone who believes (or doesn’t believe) differently from you.
Comment by: Helen M.
1I’d like to hear from anyone something like: “Wow - that’s interesting. I’d never thought of it that way before”.
Because it means they’re listening to what I say and they’re open to learning what could help them understand me better.
Comment by: Helen M.
2Reply from cautious posted on the other thread
not-too-serious list off the top of my head…
1) Yeah, that Left Behind book series is trash.
2) Well of course the Earth is billions of years old.
3) The church I’m in believes very strongly in improving the community and does so by supporting (lists off a string of humanitarian causes)
4) …and we do all this without trying to convert anybody.
5) It’s interesting that so many people believe in so many different things
6) …and I find it difficult to believe that my loving God is going to punish people forever for believing differently.
7) Abortion is wrong but it’s better to keep it legal.
8) Who cares if gay people get married?
9) No we shouldn’t be in Iraq.
10) I voted for Kerry.
I guess that sorta transformed into a political bit, but…as is being discussed here, I don’t really care what people think religiously as long as they have ethics or viewpoints (whichever they proclaim the loudest) that I can either agree with or at least see the validity to.
Comment by: Peter Walker
3I love these! Especially the following…
1) Yeah, that Left Behind book series is trash.
Amen! It’s even worse prose than The Da Vinci Code!
2) Well of course the Earth is billions of years old.
Heh heh.
4) …and we do all this without trying to convert anybody.
Now THAT would be a miracle!
7) Abortion is wrong but it’s better to keep it legal.
Especially when we aren’t providing any viable (realistic) alternatives.
8) Who cares if gay people get married?
Or more importantly (to Christians) how does gay marriage pose a threat to your comfortable middle class way of life?
9) No we shouldn’t be in Iraq.
We should be in Iraq… taking care of the poor, the sick, and the widows. Not waging wars (cough cough, for oil)…
10) I voted for Kerry.
Yes, but only because Barak Obama didn’t run.
Comment by: Peter Walker
4Oh, and by the way, I posted my affirmations above as a committed evangelical Christian.
Comment by: Lisa W.
5As a Xian, these are a few things I would love to hear from an Atheist:
1) It sounds like God is a very meaningful and valuable part of your life.
2) Why do you do “that’ during your church service?
3) Isn’t it interesting how we can look at the same thing and come up with different conclusions?
4) There have certainly been many people who have accomplished great things in part/or primarily because of their faith.
5) It’s kind of you to want to pray for me but frankly it has no meaning for me. thanks anyway.
6) May I buy you a cup of coffee?
7) That’s interesting. Tell me more.
8) I don’t know how it all works.
9) Thanks for listening
Comment by: Lisa W.
6Peter, I’m SO with you on Barak Obama!
Comment by: isaone
7That is an interesting list Lisa and with the possible exception of #8 ( more of a personal ego problem than anything else) (LOL) I would have no trouble saying them.
The number one thing I want to hear from a Christian would be.
“You know after thinking about it, I see that there is no logical way for me to explain what I believe in or even why I choose it over the other available choices. I can certainly see why a neutral observer would find that it makes very little sense. On that basis I cannot support any effort to have any public policies put into place that are based on my religion. I guess the bottom line is that I believe as I do because I like the results that I get in my own life but I can see that carries little weight in anyone else’s life. “
Comment by: Helen M.
8Most Christians do have some reasons why they chose Christianity over the other options.
I could envisage a Christian saying “I realize that my reasons/beliefs don’t hold water in your eyes/don’t make sense to you/aren’t sufficient for you” but I’d be surprised if you could find one who would agree that there’s no logical way to explain what he/she believes or why he/she chose it over the other available choices beyond “I like the results I get”.
Comment by: isaone
9I am sure you are right ( i have not suceeded yet) but what of my key point? The key to my posistion is that they realize/admit that since their arguments have little if any externally verifiable evidence they can carry no weight in determining public policy.
Comment by: cautious
10We should have stayed in Afghanistan where we were fighting a religious regime. But your point is very valid and true too.
Lisa, I appreciate your list. A few of those I’m willing to say quite openly, #4 and #8 for example. #5 is a tough one. I for one don’t know what precisely to say if someone says they’ll pray for me (maybe because I haven’t put any religious folks close enough to me to say that!) and I think that just saying “frankly it means nothing to me” is a bit harsh. …even if it is true.
And that’s it, I’m going for the political ad that no one expects, Chomsky 2008. Go Noam or go home.
Comment by: jim
11isaone - I am cool with your statement about what you wish Cs could say
It is of course not 100% accurate of my feelings as a C but similar to “cautious” comments per preferring to not have to affirm prayer in ANY way I think I could live with your hoped for affirmation.
I do not feel that I have logical reasons (using your definition of logic) for believing and following Jesus but then I am so underwhelmed and unimpressed with what humanity has done using logic anyway that I really don;t feel like I need to defend or explain my illogical decisions :-)
Comment by: Helen M.
12There are Christians who recognize that just because they think something is wrong, that doesn’t mean they have a right to expect public policy to make it illegal for people who don’t think it’s wrong.
I don’t think it’s because they believe their arguments aren’t externally verifiable. I think it’s because they understand it’s unreasonable to expect people who don’t believe something is wrong to adopt a rule that it is, just because some Christians say so. But maybe that reason is related to the lack of external verification.
Comment by: jim
13Helen
Can you give an example of what you are descibing
Comment by: Helen M.
14Ok. First I’ll try to rephrase what I said then I’ll post a quote. What I was trying to say is that many Christians would like the government to affirm and support their values. But they realize that forcing those values on people to whom they mean nothing would achieve little. These Christians therefore believe their calling is not to force public policy changes, but to dialog with people who don’t share their values, in the hope of bringing others to share their values. And if/when that happens, public policy changes that affirm Christian values will easily be voted in because enough people will want them.
Ok, here’s a quote which reflects what I was trying to say:
I don’t like the way this quote says “the work of the church is to change hearts and minds” as if the church’s heart and mind is fine and all the fault lies outside the church.
However, it does illustrate what I’ve often come across in Christian thinking - that if we want public policy to reflect Christian values, the way to achieve it is to get to a place where enough people want it that it gets voted in.
Comment by: Karen
15Jim wrote:
Why are you so underwhelmed and unimpressed with what humanity has done using logic? Logic is a big part of science and it informs the scientific method. Are you underwhelmed and unimpressed with what’s been achieved in the field of science over the last 300 years or so?
Comment by: jim
16I am not able to answer your questions because I have not studied science but I have been a human being and observed the advances and inevitable backwards steps science makes possible as human beings vie (using their so called logic) with each other to see who will control the discoveries.
I have lived in community with other human beings and observed how illogical they/we all are and how because of pride we tend to hide our dysfucntions behind explanations that appear logical to some and illogical to others ( war in iraq?)
The enlightenment project fails because it cannot even factor in broken humans trying to survive and using power over each other to accomplish that even in the face of logic.
I have also purchased cars I shouldn’t have because they made me feel cool or they smelled new.
Im sure someone else can answer your question more intelligently but I did expect someone to come after me for my playing fast and loose with sacred logic
Comment by: Karen
17Jim, I certainly didn’t mean to “come after you,” and I apologize if my question came off that way. Your comment about logic seemed so uncharacteristically adamant that I was curious to hear more of your thinking about it.
And, I agree that people surely are not logical most of the time, myself definitely included! ;-)
That said, I don’t consider logic “sacred,” but I do respect its use in making logical projections and hypotheses that can be tested and verified (or not) both in science and in life - whenever we illogical human beings can remember to do that.
Comment by: jim
18me too
Comment by: isaone
19Thanks Jim, hey darn it! You have spoile my perfect zero for several thousand records. From now for all eternity I will have to say “almost no one “. Of course that you do agree is no real surprise. I seem to recal saying something to you during our interview along the lines of “If all christians were just like you …….” Of course I met another Christian with whom I can pick almost no bones on Saturday. I even started a thread about it