Posted by Helen on: 07.03.2006 /
In the discussion board thread Friendliest Atheists in the World, Siamang wrote:
My thought is, atheists won’t be listened to until christians speak out for us.
Otherwise we cannot cast our point of view in a way to gain sympathy.If I say, “I don’t think public policy X is fair to atheists” people will answer, “well, of course you say that, you’re one of those godless atheists!”
Once others fight for our rights, we gain more than an ally, we gain credibility.
I’m for civil rights, but I’m not a minority.
I’m for gay rights, but I’m straight.
I’m for the rights of the poor, but I am not poor.
I’m for freedom of religion, but I am not religious.What you helped me to see is that this isn’t a struggle we can overcome alone. Luckily, we don’t have to.
The path of the friendly atheist is to find and make friends of Christians who can help.
Then Marty wrote:
I think that Siamang is probably right that it will take the Christians to lead the way in bringing equality and respect for the Atheists - and again, I would be most pleased to help in that effort.
I think this is a really important discussion and I hope that we will collectively continue to share/brainstorm on what can be done. I wonder if this might/could be the reason that Jim and Hemant brought us all together. If we collectively can do something practical to break down these barriers and overcome the prejudices and bring about true equality and respect - I will consider all of this a major success - and we will have indeed help make the world a better place.
I hope Helen will pick up on this and create a blog thread that will focus on developing practical ways to do something tangible together.
Good idea, Marty!
Comment by: Marty
1There have been a number of insightful comments on this topic on the discussion board that Helen references. It may be useful to first read those comments and then build upon them in this blog.
Friendliest Atheists in the World
Comment by: Doreen
2>
My view of Christianity tells me it is my responsibility to see that ALL people are respected. I do not feel any “super” responsibility to help atheists in this regard above what I already feel about ensuring respect for all.
The practical ways we can work together include finding areas of commonality. The other key way is to make genuine friendships with those who don’t think like you and the both of you introduce each other to your friends. I say this because many studies have shown that a person may be very anti-gay until they actually KNOW someone who is gay. I think this board has demonstrated the same is true of atheists and Christians.
It is easy to dislike a “category” or a “label.” It is more difficult to dislike a caring, thoughtful, cool person who happens to be atheist or Christian.
Similarly, we must speak up when we hear others being disparaged. Silence = agreement.
doreen
poetcomic.blogspot.com
Comment by: Helen M.
3I understand what you’re saying. Speaking for myself, I would like to help atheists in particular, probably for a number of reasons that have to do with my personal situation.
Good point.
Yes indeed.
I wouldn’t say silence always = disagreement. Sometimes silence = “I have to choose my battles and this isn’t one of them” or “speaking up would achieve nothing even though I absolutely don’t agree; so I am going to remain silent”.
Comment by: Helen M.
4Actually I also would like to help gay people in particular.
Maybe there are lots of other groups of people I’d like to help in particular too that just aren’t at the front of my mind right now.
Comment by: Julie Marie
5I’ve found that, within the circles I’ve traveled, the word atheist is tough to get around. I was speaking to one of my closest friends about the separation of church/state re: school prayer and she commented on “that awful man who is trying to make it so our kids can’t pray in school.” Th”awful man” she was referencing was Herb Silverman, leading atheist about town here.
I explained that no one was trying to take away a childs right to pray at school, the issue is the teacher or the school appearing to support prayer in general and prayer to a specific God in particular. she had no problem with that.
So it appears the way the issues are framed is a problem. I reframe the issues when I can. Believe it or not, there are many christians who find the Falwell/Dobson agendas vexing. The RR has framed this as an us/them with them as “awful.”
One thing atheists can do is reframe the issues as well. Herb Silverman had a debate with the religion page editor re: find God in the contsitiution. It raised awareness. I think it helped. The RR has created a strawman of atheists against a childs right to say grace before eating lunch in school. I suspect most atheists would not agree that forbidding a child to pray privately is appropriate.
And then there is the creationism thing. I didn’t realize what creationists really believe until I read pastor Tims paper. My friend who used to say she supports ID doesn’t say that any more…now that I’ve told her about the big water bubble theory of the great flood.
I’m willing to do more, but don’t have an outlet now…I can only talk one on one, when appropriate, and reframe the issues. But yes, Christians can and should help, imo.
Comment by: Helen M.
6I do hope that talking one-on-one and reframing the issues/challenging wrong stereotypes and misconceptions will help, if enough non-atheists join atheists in doing it.
Comment by: Marty
7You may need/want to read from the discussion board to get the context of the below http://off-the-map.org/ebayatheist/viewtopic.php?p=6333#6333
My guess is that Conservative Christians are not likely to help bring about respect and equal rights for Atheists no matter what.
I believe that people of good will and openness to looking at their own prejudices (which I think many moderate Christians are - or may already not be prejudice relative to Atheists) are very taken with what Gates and Buffett are doing - regardless of their previous roles with a company they may not like (although I think most like what they perceive Microsoft to have done to make computing far easier on a grand scale - I do) or whether they are pro choice (as I am - and I don’t know how many people would know that Buffett was either pro choice or pro life. If it was reverse and I found out that Buffett was pro life - I would still have emmense respect for his new level of charity - although I must admit I would not like it if his money was being used to promote pro life).
I wouldn’t think that the Religious Right will try to take on Gates and Buffett when these guys are doing more tangible things that there Bible tells them to do than probably all of the Religious Right (and probably all of Christiandom) collectively are doing.
For me - Atheists have got to bring up and refute Madeline. She is many/most of our images of what an Atheist is. Five months ago most of my image of Atheists was my view of Madeline. If the Atheists had waited for me to ask a question relative to Madeline I would have never asked it and never been open to Atheists. If I read something from Atheists that clearly refuted her and then went on to tell me about the positive things relative to Atheists - I would have been all ears.
Refuting Madeline, imbracing and revealing that Gates and Buffett are Atheists, making statements that help overcome the fears that many have relative to Atheists and telling of the positive things that Atheists do and believe I think makes a powerful case for people to be able to more objectively examine Atheism - not to convert to it but to give it proper respect.
Comment by: isaone
8Thanks for the excellent comments.
Marty I see your concept on the points to be made clear but there is a lot of editing required. Certainly I agree that it is all about fear on both sides
Cautiousmaniac (I do love your screen name) I could not agree more [quote] I don’t think that an America more tolerant of atheism is going to happen if we are afraid of offending the first group by pointing to extraordinarily generous people who have (gasp!) supported causes they don’t.[/quote] This problem is why the far right has been able to take over American politics in the last few years
Helen I agree with Doreen. In my experience silence is agreement with the loudest and the majority. So since most people think we Atheist are not even fit to hold government office and cannot possible be patriotic (including our president if you recall) anyone who stays silent is in effective agreement with. It is exactly equivalent to not voting. Anyone who does not vote actually voted for whoever won the election.
Julie Marie [quote] word atheist is tough to get around[/quote] yep I totally agree. That is why I am working on being a Bright. That term may have some bad connotations to Supers but compared to the baggage that “Atheist” carries it is a breeze.
So can anyone come up with anything practical that we are willing to actually do? I think the concept is very exciting and I would be willing to work to help it become reality but how?
Comment by: Doreen
9Julie Marie wrote
Please do not underestimate the power of one-to-one. I am more and more convinced this is the only way we can overcome prejudice, whether against Atheists, Christians, G/L/B/T, African-American, Immigrants, you name it.
Comment by: Doreen
10Speaking of respecting others, I’ve been following the story of the Wiccan soldier killed in Iraq and how the government will not allow a Wiccan symbol on his grave. They do, however, allow an Atheist symbol.
Fallen Soldier Gets a Bronze Star but No Pagan Star
By Alan Cooperman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, July 4, 2006; Page A02
At the Veterans Memorial Cemetery in the small town of Fernley, Nev., there is a wall of brass plaques for local heroes. But one space is blank. There is no memorial for Sgt. Patrick D. Stewart.
That’s because Stewart was a Wiccan, and the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs has refused to allow a symbol of the Wicca religion — a five-pointed star within a circle, called a pentacle — to be inscribed on U.S. military memorials or grave markers.
The department has approved the symbols of 38 other faiths; about half of are versions of the Christian cross. It also allows the Jewish Star of David, the Muslim crescent, the Buddhist wheel, the Mormon angel, the nine-pointed star of Bahai and something that looks like an atomic symbol for atheists.
Comment by: Keith
11Julie Marie is right on when she points out the need to “reframe” the issues. I agree that the power of one-on-one conversation is great. However, is there anything more significant that anyone had in mind?
Siamang, if you could have one Christian willing to do exactly what you wanted to help with this issue … what kind of Christian would you look for, and what steps would you want them to take? (Anyone else can answer this, too). Thanks.