Posted by Helen on: 07.05.2006 /
A few weeks ago one of the local newspaper editors invited me to write about why I don’t go to church anymore for their ‘readers viewpoints’ section. He said it might help other people who could relate. It seemed like a neat opportunity - basically, it was an invitation I couldn’t resist :).
So I wrote an article and it’s in this week’s edition.
Here’s my article.
I used to love going to church. I was there every Sunday, ready to worship God with my Christian friends and learn more about how to be a faithful Christian. I volunteered at church as much as my family circumstances would allow. I was “one of the faithful”—not perfect but doing my best to seek God and go in the direction he wanted me to go.
Sometimes as I read the Bible, or observed the world around me, it was hard to understand God’s ways. I always gave him the benefit of the doubt, though. I assumed that my inability to understand was because he was God, and I was only human.
I thought I was open enough to give any evidence for or against God a fair hearing. Yet how could I have been open when I responded to everything by trying to make it fit what the Bible said? If I couldn’t make it fit, I’d shrug and assume it was because I couldn’t see things from God’s perspective. So much for me being open. In fact my belief system was an impenetrable fortress.
A few years ago some difficult personal circumstances drove me to ask new questions. I started wondering, “Can I afford to be this trusting and accepting about everything concerning God and the Bible? Is it wise of me to so heavily discount what I see and hear just because it doesn’t easily fit what the Bible says? Maybe what I should be discounting is what the Bible says, not the evidence of my own eyes and ears.”
I knew I was venturing into territory where Christians warn each other not to go. Yet rather than turning back, I continued on. I began evaluating the God of the Bible according to my human standards. Why? Because I realized I needed my God to exceed the best standards I could imagine.
How did God do? Not so well. I finally admitted that an all-powerful, all-knowing God who hadn’t been able to figure out how to save most of humanity from eternal torment seemed meaner than I was.
I was no longer sure I liked, trusted or believed in God enough to want a personal relationship with him. I decided that I needed to stop trying to have one, so I could find out if I missed it. From then on I stopped all my attempts to talk to God (personal prayer) and listen to him (personal prayer and Bible reading).
I barely told anyone and especially not my Christian friends. I didn’t want to go from being “one of the faithful” in their eyes to “a problem that needed fixing.” I went to church and outwardly participated as I always had. It made me feel like a hypocrite, and I would rather have been honest, but I was afraid of the repercussions.
My desire to be a better person was as strong as ever. And I couldn’t help thinking that if God did exceed my own standards, surely how I lived was what really mattered to God—not what I believed.
Surely such a God wouldn’t mind that I wasn’t praying or reading the Bible. He’d say, “Hey, don’t worry about it. I understand. You do what you need to do. I’m here if you change your mind.”
I was happy not praying or reading the Bible. I loved the freedom of simply doing what I felt moved to do. I no longer had to conform to “what the Bible teaches,” yet was free to if a passage came to mind which I liked. I was pleased that now I wasn’t trying to guess at God’s will. I’d eradicated any risk of confusing his with mine.
These days I think I could convince people I’m an atheist. Yet I still want to live according to what I saw in Jesus’ life. I still remember what the Bible says and feel called to “respond Biblically” when I face challenging situations. Sometimes I wonder whether my strange, un-Christian practice of deliberately not cultivating a personal relationship with God hasn’t actually given him more freedom to work through me, not less.
I finally stopped going to church last year. I’m in the process of “coming out” to my Christian friends. Some people (not Bible-believing Christians) have suggested I try a more liberal church. But I don’t want to belong to any group claiming their way to God is superior to some other group’s way.
All I want to do is get on with my life and respect how other people get on with theirs—as long as they’re trying to make the world a better place.
Church wasn’t helping me do that. That’s why I’m not going any more.
Comment by: Julie marie
1 07/5/06 4:54 AM | Comment Link |Was ‘outing yourself’ a good idea? Hmmm…depends on your objective. If your objective was a smooth ride on glassy water…nope. If your objective is to be real and honest about your experience then yes. Your article will not allow anyone who reads it to hold mistaken assumptions about you anymore! I would be quite interested to hear what happens next, Helen…
The paradox you mention in also quite interesting to me. I have refrained from saying this for fear of being presumptuous, but since you “went there” I will agree, and have thought so for quite some time.
I contrast what you have written, especially this:
with literature that came from Dobson over the weekend, literature that was so alarmist and hateful–even the envelope was covered in rabid speech and I think:
who is full of fear here? who has no peace of mind? who has the gentleness?
Comment by: Doreen
2 07/5/06 8:03 AM | Comment Link |Wow Helen, I think that was very brave of you to write that.
I’m a seminarian, and I don’t attend church regularly. How about that? I alternate attendance among a Unitarian Universalist fellowship, an African Methodist Episcopal Church, whatever type service is going on at seminary in a given week, and Cedar Ridge Community Church (AKA the church Brian McLaren founded).
None of these “work for me” on a regular basis. This is one reason why I don’t know if I’ll ever get ordained or be the minister at a particular place. I think my calling is more to social justice. I think church attenders can pick and choose what they follow/agree with of any given church; kinda hard to do that when you are “the” minister!
This fall I start a seminary required 2-year part-time internship. I selected a United Church of Christ that does a lot of social justice. So soon I’ll be going to church every week. It frankly scares me.
Comment by: Helen M.
3 07/5/06 10:12 AM | Comment Link |Julie Marie wrote:
Indeed.
I’ll keep you posted…
Re: Dobson literature - I have never much cared for the tone of their activist writings, although I have appreciated some of their family materials.
Comment by: Helen M.
4 07/5/06 10:17 AM | Comment Link |Doreen wrote:
Thanks Doreen.
It didn’t seem as brave when I was writing it as now I see it in print!
Sounds familiar :)
Indeed - the leaders are expected to role-model upholding the doctrines of the church.
Thanks for your honesty, Doreen.
When I was going I built a sort of invisible shield around me so nothing could get in I didn’t want to get in. Seriously. It was helpful to realize that I didn’t have to let it get to me. (I mean, I don’t have total control over my emotions but I also don’t need to let them be at the mercy of other people and situations)
Comment by: Eliza
5 07/5/06 12:45 PM | Comment Link |Wow! Nice article, Helen. Does this paper print letters to the editor? It’d be interesting to hear what they hear back about your article. I bet readers’ reactions are all over the map, but it’ll be mostly those who strongly agree or strongly disagree who would most likely respond.
I especially liked how you wrote it about your own experience and reflections, not trying to generalize to other people - who can argue with that?! And I’d hope your focus on MTWABP as still-a-goal would help open some people’s eyes, that it can be separate from church attendance.
Again, nice job!
Comment by: Keith
6 07/5/06 1:12 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for writing your article, Helen. I thought it was interesting to hear your thoughts that “most of humanity” would end up in eternal torment (if eternal torment exists). How much did your thoughts on hell - or others’ thoughts on hell - contribute to the terrible taste the church left in your mouth? I would love to hear you address that sometime.
As always, your willingness to expose your thought life is greatly admired by me, and I’m sure by others. Thanks for your willingness to be honest and personal. Thanks, Helen.
Comment by: Les
7 07/5/06 2:55 PM | Comment Link |It seems to me that one is not a Christian b/c they live to all the standards in the Bible. The Bible, in essence, is not a list of rules or things that we must understand or line up perfectly too but is rather a story of a gracious and grand God interacting with mankind.
My experience with God goes beyond the intellectual pursuit of answers to life’s questions and it surpasses my need for emotional answers as to who am I and what am I doing on this rock travelling so quickly in space.
Life with God is something that I may be able to think my way out of and I can definitely feel my way out of it yet always and always I know that he is real…he is out there and right here. I cannot get away from that.
And when the Bible is read as a story of this God who created all and is all and loves all then all that I experience in life, including the pain, the doubt, the fear, the religious junk, and the hate, begins to line up to the truth that rings eternal.
The spiritual community in which I live I also die…that is the nature of being with people. In this community things are removed from me and other valuable things are added to me. It is a place of great vulnerability as well as fantastic friendship. It makes me even more appreciate the creativity, the beauty, the intellect, and the humor of our physicl creator and our spiritual father.
As a side note, it interests me that we’ve created a language that makes the ‘church’ the dangerous place to be when in fact, as believers we are the church. We are them and they are us. We are at the same time the ones who have been betrayed and the ones who are betraying…or are about to betray someone. We are the church and in abandoning it or describing it in consistently negative terms we describe ourselves and add very little to the solution of how to bring others to a living, vibrant relationships to an incredible Christ.
Comment by: Helen M.
8 07/5/06 4:21 PM | Comment Link |Eliza wrote:
Thanks, Eliza!
People write to the editor and the newspaper prints them. I’ll be interested to see if anyone writes in response to my article. I figure that people who know me might contact me directly if they want to respond.
Thanks - yes, I thought carefully about what angle to take and decided that the best approach was simply to talk about me. It really wasn’t about my specific church and that’s why I didn’t even name it. (Having said that, the editor knows which church I used to attend and he put a photo of it by the side of my article in the printed newspaper.)
If anyone learns anything useful from what I wrote, then that would be great as far as I’m concerned.
Comment by: Helen M.
9 07/5/06 4:34 PM | Comment Link |Keith wrote:
Thanks, Keith!
How about I address it now? :)
I wouldn’t say church left a terrible taste in my mouth. It’s more that it didn’t taste good enough use up some of my daily calories on, since I have only a finite number of them. I decided to eat foods I was sure I liked or I was sure were good for me instead.
About hell: it wasn’t just the doctrine of hell that was problematic for me, by any means. This epic which I wrote a few months ago goes into more detail about various things that troubled me: My Story: The Questions Which Didn’t Have the Right Answer.
You’re welcome!
Comment by: Helen M.
10 07/5/06 6:46 PM | Comment Link |Les, welcome to CatE.
Thanks for your comments about the Bible, God and the church.
I’m not sure which part of my article your comments were addressing. If you have any specific questions or comments about my article, I’ll do my best to respond to them.
Comment by: Siamang
11 07/6/06 9:57 AM | Comment Link |Please share with us whatever comments you get on the article. I’d be interested in reading what letters the paper gets, or if you have anyone who knows you comment on it to you.
Comment by: Helen M.
12 07/6/06 10:24 AM | Comment Link |I’ll definitely let you know, Siamang.
Actually, I can share a few family responses: my (atheist) husband read it before I sent it in to the newspaper and he said it was good.
My husband’s parents are staying with us for a visit. They both read it in the newspaper yesterday and both said it made sense to them. Neither of them find particular value in organized religion so that was about what I expected.
Comment by: Karen
13 07/6/06 11:14 AM | Comment Link |Absolutely fantastic article, Helen! You’re really a talented writer.
You’re also incredibly courageous. I haven’t “come out” as an atheist to more than a few people, and here you are declaring yourself publicly in the newspaper! That’s amazing. :-)
You’re a role model for me, truly. I hope you get lots of good feedback, and that you don’t take any negative feedback “personally” - though that’s certainly tough to do when you’ve written about yourself so personally.
Comment by: Eliza
14 07/6/06 11:41 AM | Comment Link |Just wanted to point out that Helen has never said she is an atheist.
From her article: “These days I think I could convince people I’m an atheist….Sometimes I wonder whether my strange, un-Christian practice of deliberately not cultivating a personal relationship with God hasn’t actually given him more freedom to work through me, not less.”
There was a discussion in April here, at the ebay atheist site titled “Jim wants to know: Is Ir [Helen's screen name there] an atheist?” (Be prepared, that discussion has 73 comments!) And this morning, Helen responded here on the CatE Discussion Board to Marty’s comment/question which assumed she was an atheist.
Comment by: Helen M.
15 07/6/06 11:42 AM | Comment Link |Thanks Karen :)
I’ve had lots of practice in learning not taking things personally so I hope I’ll remember how if publication of this article causes me to need to do it again!
Comment by: Helen M.
16 07/6/06 11:43 AM | Comment Link |Thanks, Eliza!
Comment by: Helen M.
17 07/6/06 12:11 PM | Comment Link |Let’s see what they think on IIDB
Comment by: Helen M.
18 07/6/06 7:15 PM | Comment Link |I posted a new blog entry with a little local feedback.
Comment by: Karen
19 07/6/06 8:04 PM | Comment Link |Yes, you’re right - my bad. I know she has said she’s not necessarily an atheist.
I was thinking more about Helen’s courage in “coming out” in terms of being honest about her whole journey, and about leaving church. Not about being an atheist specifically. But yours is a good point, and thanks for making it.
Comment by: Helen M.
20 07/6/06 8:17 PM | Comment Link |Oh…to be honest I didn’t realize what Eliza’s comment was in reference to; I just agreed with her because she was right! :)
In fact I didn’t think you were saying I was an atheist, Karen. I assumed you were simply saying that you are. You’re right to compare coming out as an atheist with whatever it was I came out with :). I think there are definitely similarities.
Comment by: Eliza
21 07/6/06 8:28 PM | Comment Link |Karen, I didn’t think you were necessarily saying Helen was an atheist, but wanted to point it out just in case anyone took that conclusion from her “coming out” (as….a churchgoer-no-longer ;) ) in this article. Marty thought she was an A, just yesterday on the DB, & I didn’t know if it was news that was spreading but wasn’t really news!
Comment by: Bill Lee
22 07/6/06 9:25 PM | Comment Link |I strongly agree.
Absolutely.
Comment by: jim
23 07/6/06 9:31 PM | Comment Link |I am so proud of Helen. She is articulate and kind, two attributes I strive to emulate.
Comment by: Helen M.
24 07/7/06 6:41 AM | Comment Link |Hey look - my Dad posted! (Bill Lee) Thanks Dad :)
Comment by: Helen M.
25 07/7/06 6:41 AM | Comment Link |Thanks Jim - your consistent support and affirmation over the last few months have meant a great deal to me.
In fact, I probably couldn’t have written this article without them.
Comment by: Marty
26 07/7/06 9:02 AM | Comment Link |Ir - who many thought was a man, revealed that she is a woman and then revealed that she is Helen and now indicates that I had misinterpreted that she is an Athiest - that she has not defined herself as such.
Many of us claim that we would like to get rid of labels while at the same time we (at least me) seem to somehow cling to/want to/need to have labels.
Maybe Helen will be the first truly labelless person.
Have a great vacation Helen. Thanks for all your hard work with these blogs.
Comment by: Helen M.
27 07/7/06 11:19 AM | Comment Link |Thanks Marty. I realize it was just a mistake on your part that you called me an atheist.
Yes indeed. Until a woman (I think it was Esther) realized I was female and I admitted I was, I had a good laugh to myself every time someone referred to me as ‘he’! :)
Comment by: Daughter
28 07/17/06 2:41 PM | Comment Link |Hi Helen,
I was puzzled by your conclusion: “All I want to do is get on with my life and respect how other people get on with theirs—as long as they’re trying to make the world a better place.
Church wasn’t helping me do that. That’s why I’m not going any more.”
Up until that point, it seemed like your move away from Christianity was due to the fact that you had questions and doubts about the Bible and God that Christianity didn’t answer to your satisfaction. You didn’t say anything until the end about dissatisfaction with the effect of Christianity on whether or how you made the world a better place, so the conclusion seemed disconnected. Would you be willing to expand on your conclusion? Thanks.
Comment by: Helen M.
29 07/17/06 5:40 PM | Comment Link |Hi Daughter,
Thanks for your thoughtful question.
I’ll try to tie things together better…let me know how I do…
When I believed that me living the Christian life was the only way I could make the world a better place, I was fully committed to living the Christian life so I could achieve that end.
As my doubts developed I came to think: Christianity sometimes seems to be a means by which people make the world a better place, but at other times it seems to be making it a worse place. So it’s not a reliable way of making the world a better place. That meant that to do so through Christianity necessitated me sorting through what seemed to work and what didn’t. I found this emotionally draining and harder than simply removing myself from the Christian framework and pursuing what seemed to me to make the world a better place in the most direct way I could.
So I did remove myself. The following thought, which was in my article, gave me further incentive to do so:
In other words, why stay within the Christian framework if it seemed to me that surely it wouldn’t really matter to God whether I did or not, as long as I was making the world a better place?
It’s as if I believed for a long time that there was only one road from Chicago to Rockford. So that’s the way I went. One day I found another road - not only that but it seemed to be shorter and have less traffic. When I didn’t know about this other road I couldn’t take it, but once I found it, it didn’t make sense not to try it. And if it really was shorter and less busy, why would I go back to the other way?
Does that make sense? Does it fill in any of the gaps in my article?
Comment by: Daughter
30 07/18/06 7:30 AM | Comment Link |Yes, it did. Thanks for your clarification.
Comment by: Helen M.
31 07/18/06 8:54 AM | Comment Link |I’m glad it was helpful. Thanks for checking back!
Comment by: Juli
32 07/21/06 9:05 PM | Comment Link |Thank you for that article, Helen. I can relate so well to what you said. I’ve been through many changes over the past few years - from a somewhat conservative/fundamentlist background, through “more grace - less legalism” steps, to sovereignty of God, and even on to believing in the reconciliation of all through the cross. But, now I find myself pulling away almost completely from any association with Christianity. There are times that I feel I am communicating with God, but most of the time I am unsure of what to believe about any of it. I just know that I’m not nearly as frustrated as I was when I was in church!
Comment by: Helen M.
33 07/22/06 3:45 AM | Comment Link |Hi Juli, welcome to CatE!
I’m so glad my article was helpful to you.
I’ve been finding over the last six months that how much I pull away depends on how open the Christians/followers of Jesus I’m associating with are.
When I’m among Christians/followers of Jesus so open that they can say “Hey, wherever you’re at is completely fine with me” rather than “I’m deeply concerned about you, Helen…” then I don’t need to pull away. I can say “I think I might be a ‘non-traditional’ Christian”. I have enough room to find that that may be true of me.
But when I’m around Christians who say “This is what being a Christian has to look like. No ifs, no buts” then I have to pull away. What I think is “ok, fine, then I can’t say I am one. You may as well think of me as an atheist because that’s the closest label you have for me”. I don’t usually say it because it doesn’t usually seem like saying it would achieve anything worthwhile.
Anyway, I hope you can find some people - no matter what their profession is - accepting enough of where you’re at that you won’t have to pull away. And you can see ‘where you land’, as it were. Maybe it will be away from Christianity and maybe it won’t. I think it’s actually more important that you can find a place to rest, than what label that place has. Because pulling away takes a lot of emotional energy that, speaking for myself, I really need to invest in other ways.
You said you’re less frustrated than you were, so it sounds like you’re going in the right direction - congratulations!
Comment by: SezMe
34 07/22/06 11:33 PM | Comment Link |Helen, in spite of what Marty said, you are a Humanist. Take a look at their worldview and let me know what you think.
Comment by: Helen M.
35 07/23/06 3:38 AM | Comment Link |Thanks SezMe.
Here’s the AHA’s definition of Humanism:
I could probably say I’m a humanist were it not for the ‘without supernaturalism’. I would rather be more open than that. Apart from that I like the rest of the definition.
I read some other definitions/statements by humanists and it seems common to take a stronger stand for naturalism and against supernaturalism than I want to take.
But as for my values, yes, they do seem to be very similar to humanist values.
Comment by: Andy M
36 08/18/06 5:06 PM | Comment Link |Hi Helen,
I happened upon your story on the doable evangelism blog and had a few comments and questions.
As I posted over there,
It’s interesting that you say:
I say it’s interesting because it seems like you may have gotten the impression that “making the world a better place” is the goal of true Christianity (defined as Christ-likeness). While I see that as the goal in the definition of humanism as described in the previous post, it really is not the goal, the end-all be-all, of Christ-likeness. Rather making the world a better place is a by-product of the real reason Jesus says he came. Jesus said while praying (talking to God-the-Father) in the garden before he was betrayed and crucified, that he came that we (you and I)might know the Father God and be one with Him even as Jesus is one with him.
One result of being like Christ is that we live in a way that positively impacts the lives of those around us (makes the world a better place). However, to say that is the goal of being like Christ is to miss why Jesus said he came. If we get the cart before the horse, i.e. attempt to make the world a better place by reading the Bible and praying rather than doing those things to simply know God-the-Father as Jesus knows him, we will undoubtedly (and I believe as you have experienced) be frustrated as that is not the inteded result of living a Christ-like life. Jesus life was defined by his relationship with his Father/God.
You also say:
Jesus said, I am the Way. . . no one comes to the Father except through me.” He didn’t say “I am the only way to lead a meaningful, ethical life capable of adding to the greater good of humanity.” I would posit that there are many roads to that destination, some easy, some hard, some reasonable, some circuitous. That however is not a destination in the life of a Jesus follower, it is part of the path but not the destination.
The desitnation of the life of the Jesus follower is to be one with the Father. Most Christian teachers throughout history agree that this oneness with God ultimately happens (the destination) in the next life. However, a life of following Jesus offers not only this ultimate one-ness with God in some afterlife, but also truly offers an incredible journey in this life. A journey defined by Christ-likeness from wherever we are to Who, What, and Where God is. For me, I serve God (share his Love with others) because I love him, and I love him because I know him and I know him because I spend time with him.
Honestly if Jesus said he was the only way to the Father and that God is Love, and those things are not true by our own observation, then by our own observation he’s a liar and not a good man or prophet of God or anyone to be trusted. I’m afraid however that what you’ve observed is not Jesus as described in the Bible, but rather people who claim to represent him and painfully miss what he is all about.
Those are my observations. My questions are:
What do you think about knowing God being the primary goal of living a Christ-like life? If more people lived like Jesus, do you think the world would be a better place? Is making the world a better place more important than knowing God?
All the best in your journey.
Comment by: Helen
37 08/18/06 7:24 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for your response, Andy.
I’m familiar with that teaching. I’ve read a number of Larry Crabb’s books, for example, and he emphasizes that as the goal of the Christian life.
These days I’m trying to be honest and, being honest, I have no clue what “knowing God” means. How do I know if I’m getting to know God better? Is it because some other Christians say I am? What are the signs that someone knows God well? What difference does it make?
Well…I hope so.
Making the world a better place is a concrete goal. I can look around me and see how it’s going. Knowing God on the other hand - how does anyone know who knows God well? How does anyone assess it except by using circular arguments that if you do what I think means you know God well, then you know him well?
Comment by: Andy M
38 08/19/06 1:09 AM | Comment Link |Hi Helen,
I’ve been considering your answers and questions. I actually haven’t read any of Larry Crabb’s books. I was thinking of Jesus’ prayer in the garden (John 17) where Jesus says, “And this is the way to have eternal life — to know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.”
I would say that your relationship with God can be and is personal. To give power in that relationship to what some other people (Christians too or perhaps especially) say is to diminish the personal nature of that relationship. Please understand that although the Christian (Christ-like) life is personal, it is not private. At least there are no examples in the bible of a God-seeking or Jesus-following Lone Ranger. (Well come to think of it, even the Lone Ranger had Tonto):) The Jesus following life is always lived out in the context of a community. For sure there are lots of communities out there who say they represent Jesus, but, by our own observation we can see that they do not.
As to the signs that some one knows God well, I would say the signs are a life with marked similarity to Jesus’ life, an honest pursuit of him, a desire and an honest attempt to do what he taught, and not just what feels good, easy or convenient, but the hard stuff too.
What difference does that kind of knowing God make? Well we both agree that if more people lived like Jesus the world would be a better place.
Back to my answer to the first question what is really important is that I know about my relationship with him. Honestly, my assessment of how well you know God doesn’t help you our me know him better. Unfortunately, that opinion (if you or I allow it to) has the potential to hinder my and your ability to know him better. For example: my preoccupation with my assessment of your relationship with God, or your preoccupation wth my assessment of your relationship with God could be distracting (not helpful/even harmful) to either of us.
I’m attaching a copy of what Jesus said in the 14th chapter of John which I think succinctly illustrates what Jesus has to say about knowing God.
Comment by: Helen
39 08/19/06 2:23 AM | Comment Link |Andy wrote:
Not to set myself up as perfect or anything, but - that sounds pretty much like my life.
(Btw I’m leaving on vacation this morning and will be gone until August 28)
Comment by: Rachel
40 08/19/06 10:39 AM | Comment Link |I agree, Andy. And the community of those who follow Jesus needs to be willing to welcome people at all different points on their journey of faith. That includes people like Helen and myself and others who have been completely immersed in evangelical culture for many years and have heard all the right answers but still have deep, unresolved doubts. Can the church embrace and accept people who are in the midst of a crisis of faith? Can they resist the urge to bombard us with prepackaged answers? Can they accept those of us who seek to follow Jesus in spite of the questions? Or will they drive us away as too unorthodox for the community?
Helen has chosen to leave the church, rather than continue to pretend. I still go to church but keep many of my doubts and beliefs hidden from those around me. Who is more honest and authentic? I admire Helen for having the courage to be real.
Comment by: Jerry
41 08/20/06 12:20 PM | Comment Link |Rachel wrote:
There is a third option: Find a church where you can be open and honest about your doubts and beliefs rather than hiding or pretending. There are poeple all around you ina church who may have been down the same road and could really help you out but you’ll never know if you hide or leave.
Comment by: Rachel
42 08/20/06 2:48 PM | Comment Link |That’s a good point, Jerry. And my husband and I do plan to leave our church in about a year. Some close friends of ours are planning to plant an emerging church in our town, probably starting next summer, and we have committed to participating right from the beginning. So it’s probably easier for me to stay at my church, knowing that it is temporary.
But for now, I feel that God wants us to stay where we are. One reason is that I do have an influence there because I organize social justice oriented service projects for our Sunday School class every other month. I started this a year and a half ago and I hope to pass it on to someone else when we leave.
But I also feel that God is using this situation to teach me to love my more conservative brothers and sisters in Christ. I can’t claim to believe in a gospel of reconcilation and yet be unable to stand fundamentalists. So I know that my job now is to love and embrace them and recognize Christ in them. Then when we do move on, it will be because we have a new opportunity to serve, not because we left feeling disgusted or resentful or thinking we were superior.
Comment by: Rachel
43 08/20/06 3:09 PM | Comment Link |More thoughts about keeping my doubts and beliefs to myself… I do bring certain things up in our Sunday School class and try to push people outside their boxes a little bit. But I also feel that it is not appropriate for me to be continually challenging things. I know what my church believes and it is my choice to attend there. So I need to show a certain amount of respect and not be disruptive.
Another reason I rarely bring up my doubts at church is that previous experience has told me that people will respond with the same prepackaged answers that I have heard before and found unsatisfying. People will present these answers as if they are brilliant and self-evident and totally convincing. Then when I am not persuaded, they feel angry or disappointed or confused themselves. I find it frustrating and discouraging to cover the same ground again and again.
So for this season, it is best to learn patience and humility - oh, what fun! :) - and keep my big mouth shut most of the time. But I really look forward to another season where I will experience more freedom. And this blog is certainly a place of honesty and freedom!
Comment by: Eliza
44 08/21/06 8:15 AM | Comment Link |I’ve posted part of Andy M’s comments above about a Jesus-following life as a new discussion topic this morning. Thanks!
Comment by: Andy M
45 08/28/06 12:32 AM | Comment Link |Hi Helen,
I hope your vacation was enjoyable. Yellowstone is a beautiful place.
Earlier we wrote,
In considering your comments, I have a few observations.
It seems to me that you may be equating (saying the each are essentially the same) the signs that some one knows God well with knowing God. I have to say these two things are different and distinct as I believe our own experiences tell us.
The key difference between the two can be illustrated by the symbolism of a wedding ring. My wedding ring is an expression (evidence) of my relationship with my wife, Amy. I think we can agree that that evidence is not the same thing as my relationship with her. Also if I were not married (had no marital relationship) but chose to wear a gold ring on the third finger of my left hand, that ring would simply be a gold ring on the third finger of my left hand rather than a wedding ring. What makes that ring a wedding ring (what defines it as such) is my relationship with my wife.
Earlier you wrote:
In the context of the wedding ring illustration, I would say that knowing God is all about a relationship with Him. Just like for me, knowing my wife is all about my relationship with her.
I could study my wife. I could do what she says. I could learn what she likes and dislikes. I could tell everybody I meet what an amazing, loving, kind, forgiving, selfless person she is. I could recount her life and deeds to people who had never met her. I could do all of these things without being her husband. What makes her truly special to me however is the relationship we share as husband and wife. Imagine the previous scenario if Amy were simply a friend/acquaintance of mine, perhaps someone I had met at a party or seen out with friends a few times. What real difference would all of that study and learning and following really make in my life (aside from a possible restraining order and the social awkwardness of apparent stalking :) )? What makes the previous scenario real (gives it power) in my life (the defining characteristic of all things good about that scenario) is my relationship with her as her husband.
The same is true with our relationship with God. As I mentioned earlier, Jesus’ life was defined by his relationship with his Father/God. The works (evidinces) that Jesus knew God were just that. . . They were evidence, a side-effect, an out-pouring, a natural result of a life spent pursuing a relationship with God (who Jesus also was or at least claimed to be.)
For us (you and me), to know Jesus is to know God. How do I know him? I know him in much the same way I know my wife. When Christians talk about being born again or “getting saved” or having a salvation experience, for many of us it is very much like “getting married.” Did I know my wife well before we “got married.” I would like to think so. However, did I know her as well as I do now almost 11 years later? I must say that I have really gotten to know her since we’ve been married. Did I love her when we got married? Absolutely. Do I love her more today than I did 11 years ago? Absolutely. I met my wife before I married her. I observed her, I talked to her, we hung out. We were friends. But my life forever changed when I married her.
A relationship with God is similar in that it is just as dynamic . I heard about him. I saw him work in other people’s lives. I saw evidence of his love for me. I talked to him. I longed to know him better. He proposed a way to know him better, to really know him, and I accepted. And today can say I know him better than I did that day and I love him more than I did that day.
Anyway that’s my observation.
Do you think we can know God (relate to him) in an intimate way (one to one)? Do you think that we can have a relationship with him that is personal (not defined by the actions or attitudes of others?) Do you think God is real and that he loves you?
Comment by: Mike O
46 08/28/06 10:12 AM | Comment Link |Andy, that was beautiful. I had an idea once to write a short drama about what it would be like to be married without relationship. You do all the things you’re supposed to do for her “because it’s mandated by law that you do them,” not because you’re in love with her.
I think it’s so easy to get the cart before the horse and say because we do certain things, then we must love God. But really it’s because we’re in love with God that we do certain things for Him.
If anyone missed Andy’s post (#45), be sure you go back and read it. Whether you buy into the whole Christianity thing or not, Andy did a beautiful job of describing what a relationship with Christ should be like for those of us who do. Thanks Andy!
Comment by: Helen
47 08/28/06 5:55 PM | Comment Link |Andy wrote:
Thanks - we did enjoy it and as you say, Yellowstone is beautiful (in many places - some do look rather like an alien landscape)
You were told and/or you read things about God and you believed them. Me too.
You believed you saw him work in other peoples’ lives. Me too.
You believed you saw evidence of his love for you. Me too.
You believed you talked to him. Me too.
Me too.
You heard about a way to know God better, you believed it and you tried it.
Me too.
That was what I said also, from about 21 to 6 years ago.
Then I became unsure of what I believed. And here I am.
6 to 21 years ago my answers were all “yes”.
My answers now are all “I’m not sure”.
Comment by: Benjamin Ady
48 10/7/06 10:56 AM | Comment Link |Helen,
Thankyou for sharing. You have had a very similary experience to mine, and I guess you’ve been hearing that from others as well.
You spoke of finding it easier to understand and assess “making the world a better place” than “knowing god”. This also makes a lot of sense to me–it is my experience also. I did have this thought…does this mean that in this case I find it easier to be modern than to be postmodern? I think the answer is yes, and this is intriguing to me, since I generally find the postmodern more appealing than the modern. I must ponder this further…
Comment by: Helen
49 10/7/06 11:27 AM | Comment Link |Hi Benjamin,
Thanks for your comments. Yes, it seems that others have had similar experiences to mine, which is reassuring!
I visited your blog yesterday after I saw your comment on the rev conf blog. I love the title of your blog: “oxymoronredundancyparadoxtrap” - LOL
I don’t often think about whether I’m modern or postmodern. I do know that I find a good story moving and inspiring whether it’s true or not, which seems rather postmodern to me.
In general I tend to find labels are too limiting…
Comment by: Rachel
50 10/7/06 6:36 PM | Comment Link |Hmmmm…interesting question, Benjamin. Personally I see the emphasis on MTWABP as a postmodern concept because postmodern thinkers will determine the rightness of a belief system based upon the results. Postmodernity rejects the idea that something is right because the right person says so. And postmodernity recognizes that not all truth can be proven or disproven scientifically. So the rightness of something is demonstrated by its results. As Jesus said, “A good tree bears good fruit.” So you find it easier to determine if something is good for humanity, than if it is right on an abstract level. And that makes you a postmodern thinker!
OK, now I have confused myself. I have no clue what I just said. Let me know if you have better luck with your ponderings, Ben. :-)
Comment by: Benjamin Ady
51 10/7/06 11:18 PM | Comment Link |hehe. May I be slightly obnoxious and rephrase your statement? “In general I find generalities too limiting”? I see this everywhere, and know that I fall prey to it, and realize that that’s ok, because it’s an escapable part of being human/using langauge. Hence the name of my blog. That’s kind of what Godel proved. Have you seen Douglas Hofstadter’s pulitzer prize winning “Godel, Escher, Bach, An eternal Golden Braid” (published 1980) which talks a lot about this phenomenon which he calls “stange loopiness”?
Comment by: Benjamin Ady
52 10/7/06 11:33 PM | Comment Link |Rachel, I actually still can’t quite get my head around “exactly what is postmodernism again?” But I know that I have felt connection with bits and pieces here and there which were self described as “post modern”. But I’m thinking that the ideas that MTWABP A. is a possibility and B. is a statement which has objective meaning seem to fall more into the modern side of the whole thing.
Comment by: Rachel
53 10/8/06 10:18 AM | Comment Link |Ben, I see your point. Whether we MTWABP can be measured qualitatively, such as what percentage of children now live in extreme poverty, or numbers of new infections of AIDS, or how many people now have access to clean water. And that would be a very modern way to access value or results - with measurable facts. I see Bill Gates as sort of the ultimate modern MTWABP activist, because he uses tons of statistical information to determine how to spend his Gates Foundation money in the way that achieves the greatest results for the investment. And that is very wise.
But then there is this other thing we are talking about - how we determine if our religion/faith tradition/moral belief system is right and good. Medieval thinking based the rightness of something on who said it was so (the pope, the king, etc). Modern thinking determines truth based upon objective facts (science, legal proofs, etc). Postmodern thinking rejects the idea that truth is based upon authority - we only need to read our history books to conclude that idea is fatally flawed. And postmodern thinking recognizes that rationality, though it has improved our lives, does not provide answers for some of life’s deepest mysteries.
Postmodern people are very interested in spiritual matters, at the same time that they have radically lost faith in authorities and institutions, and even to a degree, in science. So how does one evaluate the truth of a religion if you acknowledge that you cannot rationally, scientifically “prove” that your faith is valid? It has to be assessed by the results it produces for the benefit of humanity. As Brian McLaren says, if more people becoming Christians doesn’t make the world a better place for everyone, Christian or not, then something is seriously wrong with our religion.
Comment by: Helen
54 10/8/06 5:53 PM | Comment Link |Benjamin, I read Godel, Escher and Bach years ago when I was in college - great book!
Comment by: DoableEvangelism » Blog Archive » Conservative Christian changes mind
55 10/12/06 9:47 AM | Comment Link |[...] It didn’t take too long, however, for me to discover that Off The Map and I were not exactly on the same page theologically. While I valued the idea of Ordinary Attempts, as I got to know people, I began to discover that my conservative views were not exactly in line with Off The Map. I didn’t mind Eliza and Siamang and others saying what they said because they aren’t Christians, and they aren’t supposed to think like me (notice who I’m comparing them to). But with Helen writing articles like, Why I don’t go to church any more and other articles like Jim’s call to arms and 10 reasons why your Church Sucks and others, that’s where I started running into trouble. [...]
Comment by: Cryton Chikoko
56 01/8/07 3:17 PM | Comment Link |Hi Helen,
I am a theological student with special interest in postmodernism. I really find the discourses on your site theologically interesting. I have asked some friends to feast on them.
Its encouraging to know that Bible characters did question God. I have always beleived in questioning ones faith. A true faith sure be able to survive scrutiny. However I beleive God is not bound to give all answers.
Comment by: Helen
57 01/9/07 10:52 AM | Comment Link |Thanks for your comments, Cryton.
Comment by: andrea useem
58 05/21/08 2:22 PM | Comment Link |Finally got around to reading this — though i don’t have time for reading the many many comments. i will have to catch up with some of your other writing to see where you have been since writing this. i’m interested in how your feelings about church/faith tie in with the emergent church movement. anyways, thanks for the thoughts.
FYI, you might be interested in my article last week in slate about Muslim women who remove their headscarves: a similar kind of transformation:
http://www.slate.com/id/2191103/
Comment by: Helen
59 05/21/08 5:42 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for your comment and the article link, Andrea! I don’t think my views have particularly changed since I wrote this, but I often hang out with Christians and people sometimes think I’m a Christian because I don’t say that I’m not one.
I don’t say it because I generally would prefer to talk about other things with Christians. I’ve learned by experience that talking about my failure to embrace their beliefs can be an awkward, frustrating, not-fun experience. (Depending which Christians I am talking with) I don’t expect Christians who believe like I used to to understand because I wouldn’t have understood it myself ten years ago. But that still doesn’t help me not be frustrated if/when they put me in a box that doesn’t fit, because they have no box for someone like me.
Comment by: Emergent Islam? Surfing toward an Ultra-modern American Faith Life : ReligionWriter.com
60 05/22/08 6:53 AM | Comment Link |[...] posts ever (originally a column for a local newspaper), entitled, self-explanatorily enough, “Why I Don’t Go to Church Anymore.” It’s an amazing concise description of how she lost her faith while being very [...]