Posted by Helen on: 07.06.2006 /
Eliza has kindly agreed to be our fourth online interview candidate.
The purpose of this interview is to give you the opportunity to listen to Eliza as she shares her thoughts and opinions with you.
If you want to discuss whether Eliza’s views are correct, we invite you to do that here on the discussion board. Eliza is welcome to participate in discussions there about her views if she wants to. If she doesn’t have the time or inclination that’s fine with us - we don’t consider doing so ‘part of the interview’.
I’d like to post more online interviews. If you’d like to send one in, you can find the instructions and questions here.
What screen name do you post under — so we know you when we see you?
Eliza. It’s a variant of “Elizabeth” which, ironically, means “devoted to God.” My parents chose it, never knowing it would be my “screen name” on a Christian-atheist discussion site years later. :)
Would you like to share any of the following so we can know you better: your age range, whether you’re married or single, have children, what kind of work you do, what area of the U.S. (or other country) you live in?
I’m 43, married for 12 years (together for 22 years), live near Seattle. We have one child who turns 8 in a few weeks, and a 13-year-old dog. I am a physician (an internist, which is a “doctor for adults”) and an assistant professor of medicine at a university.
What do you like to do when you have some time to yourself?
It doesn’t happen much these days, but when it does I like to read, swim, bike, and garden. (As my various body parts allow, see below!)
Please share with us something you really enjoy about your life.
Spending time with my family, whether it’s quiet time at home or out having some adventure. I especially like sharing a laugh with my husband, or with my son, or with both of them. Humor — about everyday observations - has been a wonderful part of my life, from childhood to present.
If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about you or your life, what would it be?
I’d choose a more robust body. I seem to get weird injuries & things happening to me — luckily, they’re annoying and limiting but not serious medical conditions. (Knock on wood!) To run the list:
I’ve had 3 knee surgeries (two for a torn cartilage that occurred while I was simply walking at age 11, and one for a benign but unusual synovial tumor). I’ve had 2 knee/leg injuries for which I didn’t need surgery — a partial tear of every ligament in one knee from tripping on an IV line at work, and a fibular fracture from slipping & falling on glossy newspaper inserts in my living room. I’ve had one knee injury for which I chose not to have surgery - a torn ACL from when my dog ran into me at full speed 7 years ago. I still get knee pain, am probably getting early arthritis, and also my right knee is lax & gives out from the unrepaired ACL tear.
I’ve had chronic abdominal pain for more than 10 years and have had 4 surgeries for severe adhesions. The clues suggest that my appendix ruptured in early 1996 & I didn’t know it. In 1998, I had a C-section for a not-so-common reason — my son was found late in pregnancy to be a “footling breech”. Because of that positioning, he could have died from cord prolapse if I’d gone into labor. I still have daily abdominal pain, though it isn’t nearly as bad as it was before my last surgery in 2003.
I’ve had shoulder pain in my dominant arm for 15 years, worse for about 3 years. MRI shows a torn cartilage, kind of unusual problem to have in the shoulder, most commonly seen in ball players. It’s not clear how it happened. It’s the cartilage that the biceps tendon attaches to, so it’s pretty limiting. I had already figured out how to live life & be reasonably active without relying on my knees or abdominal muscles, but to have pain with use of the biceps of my dominant arm has really thrown a wrench into my available activities. (The orthopedic surgeon I’ve seen says “you don’t have a problem” because my range of motion and strength are intact — it’s “just” pain. Luckily, I’m pretty used to pain. ;) )
The silver lining is that all this history and experience has been invaluable at helping me see the medical system the way patients experience it - especially how hurtful and uncaring physicians can be, and how easily medical errors can occur (though I haven’t had anything bad happen, I can see how it could). I think it has made me more empathetic and caring, and I hope that has helped my patients.
How did you find Conversation at the Edge (or, the eBay atheist blog) and what drew you to post in the comments section?
I ran across a link to the Wall Street Journal article about “the ebay atheist,” Hemant Mehta, the day before it came out in print. I was fascinated that an atheist would offer to spend time with Christians, or in church, and in a kind of horrified fascination I went to Off The Map’s eBay atheist blog to see what was up. There, I found really interesting conversations going on. I read for a while before I decided my viewpoints wouldn’t be too out of line & I got up my nerve to post.
Is this the first time you’ve participated in any online discussions on the internet? If not, could you share with us what other sorts of online discussions you like to participate in?
Yes, it’s the first time I’ve participated in anything online (reading, or posting). Since getting comfortable here, I’ve started reading and posting a bit at a skeptics’ discussion board, but I don’t find it nearly as interesting.
Has posting on Conversation at the Edge (or the eBay atheist blog) changed you in any way?
I feel like I have a much better understanding of Christianity now, especially the diversity of beliefs that umbrella term encompasses — though it’s still an outsider’s understanding, which is necessarily limited. (For example, I had somehow thought that all Christians were evangelical, except my in-laws). I feel far, far more comfortable talking with people about Christianity and religion in general now. I’ve learned a lot, including books and other resources (new to me) to find out more about religion and spirituality beyond the apologists-versus-skeptics literature. All in all, it has been very thought-provoking, and that has been wonderful.
Were you raised going to church and are you currently a church attender?
Neither, but keep reading. When I was 8-9 years old, I told my parents I wanted to go to church. I picked one out and went for a few weeks; they would drop me off and pick me up, were very matter-of-fact about it but didn’t join me. I found the regular service daunting and difficult to understand. The Sunday school stories just didn’t make sense to me. I have been to Friends Meetings (Quaker services) a few times over the years, but some people at those meetings were clearly Bible-oriented; that pokes the argumentative part of me. (Internally, at least. ;) )
Today, July 2, I went to a small, local Unitarian-Universalist church for the first time and I really liked it. I’m planning to go back, and I can imagine joining. We’ll see!
What is your main reason for choosing to be a church attender/not to be a church attender at present?
I’m an atheist, which usually is considered incompatible with being a church member :). However, this UU experience today impressed me quite a bit. The sermon was about the universe; the speaker (a guest minister) and the audience all clearly accepted current scientific knowledge, including the Big Bang and evolution, and used that as a basis for discussing our place in the universe — one of the thoughts being, as I’ve heard said before by reflective scientists, that we are the way in which the universe has become conscious of itself and responsible for (at least part of) itself. There was no mention of God, or any supernatural power, or prayer, or heaven, or an afterlife. (So…is it really a church? That’s a rhetorical question, BTW :))
The service closed with a song called “Ye Earthborn Children of a Star” — which fit perfectly with my husband’s discussion with our son last night that we are stardust — that the heavier elements in us, including iron in our blood and calcium in our bones, were made in the nuclear reactors that are stars, then spread through space as those stars went supernova. Overall, this was a spiritually-relevant session that relied upon and meshed perfectly with scientific knowledge.
The two main reasons I would keep going, if I do, would be (1) to have some place to encourage and structure my thinking and activities in humanism and in spiritual considerations stemming from science, and (2) to join a community with similar interests.
Apart from church are there any groups you participate in regularly for faith-based, social and/or self-improvement reasons?
I belong to a book club. I like the social contact, and it gets me reading at least one book a month, even if I feel like I don’t have time. (We’ve also read some books that I never would have picked up on my own, and that’s been great.) I belong to a bunch of professional medical organizations; there’s some social aspect to the meetings, but they’re mostly educational.
Is there anything else (outside work and family) which you devote significant time to? Or used to, or hope to in the future? (We understand that for some of you, work and family takes up almost all your time at present)
Work and family take up almost all of my time at present, and I have also been *ahem* spending too much time reading and conversing on the blogs associated with off-the-map! And reading books stemming from recommendations and discussions on these sites, and walking around thinking about the points that people bring up. My husband and I have spent ~5 hours this past week on our tandem bike; we used to bike a lot “B.C.” (Before Child) & it would be nice if we can get back to doing more of that together again.
Please answer the following questions if your beliefs differ in any significant way from this: “Every human being has a “sin’ problem separating him/her from God and the only way to resolve my own sin problem is to believe that Jesus is God and Jesus took care of it for me”.
Has anyone ever called you “lost”? Have you heard or read anything which tells you that some people talk about you like that behind your back?
No-one has ever called me that to my face, but I would imagine I fit the definition of “lost” quite well. I have been asked if I’ve accepted Jesus, but the old me mumbled something and ran away from the conversation as quickly as possible, so it never got to the point of anyone calling me “lost”!
How would you/do you feel about being called “lost”?
I’d be pissed off, if it were said to my face. (Behind my back, *shrug* can’t do much about that.)
Do you feel “lost” in any way — is there anything you’re trying to find, or is anyone trying to find you, as best you can tell?
Nope, I don’t feel lost. I’m right here, have been all along. (Bah-boom.) I feel secure in who I am and what I believe, which doesn’t mean that my thoughts and considerations can’t change — but anything that might make me change would have to fit with my worldview, which is that of a scientist and lifelong skeptic, or it would have to blast that worldview to bits with something amazing that I totally can’t explain. Someone telling me what they believe, & what they think I should believe, isn’t going to do that.
Are you aware of any assumptions people make about “the lost” which don’t apply to you?
I have to say, I haven’t been thinking about what people think about “the lost” — it seems to me a made-up classification which has no meaning outside their belief system, which I don’t share. I have heard people saying that I, and others who are open to talking about religion here, must be “seeking” — as in, seeking God/Jesus - otherwise, why would we be here? Which suggests to me they are operating from a limited data set; perhaps they haven’t read our posts before arriving at that assumption?
How do you like to describe yourself regarding what you believe or have no belief in?
I’m a skeptic, and I enjoy being that. As a skeptic, I require proof before belief, and I do not see anything that necessarily serves as proof for God’s existence — so, I don’t believe God exists. Because of this view, I describe myself as an atheist. (If God exists, I picture a noninterventional god who created the universe then skedaddled. That would make me a deist, if I felt there were sufficient proof for that type of god.)
Since I acknowledge that I do not know for certain whether or not God exists, it would be more accurate to say I’m agnostic — “not knowing”. But, then, I really don’t think anyone can say for certain whether or not God exists. But, then, I’m sure there are many who would disagree, and who would not want to be called agnostic. And, I’m not sitting, wavering, on any fence. So, I’ll stick with atheist.
What (else) would you like to tell the people who call you “lost” if you thought they were listening?
Go bother someone else :) - or, drop the divisive terminology & we have a better chance of having a conversation. (Not a conversion, mind you. A conversation.)
Do you own a Bible? Do you ever read the Bible or look anything up in it? If so, what is your main reason for doing so?
Yes. I started reading it (again, after 33 years) one year ago, wondering (again) what people see in it, why it’s so important. The same questions came up again the second time around, but at least I got farther! I’m still reading sections periodically — maybe twice a week — just to become more familiar with the text — but more often I go to the Bible now to look things up as the interest arises based on discussions here and, more often, on the CatE Discussion Board.
As best you know, has anything in the Bible influenced you in a good way (directly or indirectly)?
The stories of Jesus — his teachings and his actions here on Earth — are inspiring. They provide a model for living a life of nonjudgmental acceptance of, and meaningful assistance towards, others.
As best you know, has anything in the Bible influenced you in a negative way (directly or indirectly)?
Negative as defined by me, or by others? ;) Apologies to the many people who don’t like to hear this, but for me reading the Bible has significantly strengthened my skepticism about anything based upon literal readings of it.
Has anyone expressed disapproval to you about your own personal opinion, or use, of the Bible? What would you like them to understand better about you and the Bible, were it possible?
I know that my “use” of the Bible bothers at least some Christians (this has come up on the CatE Discussion Board, not elsewhere so far to my knowledge). I’ve been reading the Bible and questioning what seem like internal inconsistencies, or inconsistencies between sections that are frequently quoted and parts that are rarely quoted, with a “naïve” eye and interpretation. It’s interesting what you see if you haven’t already been taught what the meaning is. And there are so many different interpretations that it’s awfully hard, imo, to say that any one is “right” — gosh, it sure seems like different groups within Christianity don’t come close to agreeing on a lot of it.
I started doing this when a few posters on the eBay atheist blog would pop in to say that finding God was easy, just read the Bible. I’d like them to understand that for someone like me, the Bible doesn’t — and can’t - serve as proof. In this case, faith and belief would have to come first. And I’d imagine it would have to come from God, not from another person trying to convince me.
I’d also like them to understand that I’m more likely to be positively influenced by someone who is following Jesus’s example in his/her actions, and life, than by someone who is talking about “finding” or “accepting” Jesus.
Is there anything I forgot to ask that you’d like to tell us?
Only that my parents and uncles are in their 70’s, none of us is Christian or “religious” but my father and one uncle have been exploring religion recently, as they age. (They’re also UU types, but with some hope for existence after death, which I don’t share.) We’ve had some good discussions, and finding out more about what they’re going through has been another impetus for my being involved here.
Comment by: Julie marie
1thanks for doing the interview, Eliza. I enjoy the fruits of your biblical exploration and the direct, honest questions you have about what you read. You have shone (shined?) the spotlight on some troublesome areas and that has been beneficial to me; thinking things through (even when I don’t come to a satisfying answer) stretches me. I’m at a stage where a little stretching is good. (mentally and physically ;))
The empathy you have for your patients comes through when you write about your practice. Not that I’d wish pain on all MDs or anything, but a short walk through some sort of encounter with the health care delivery system in this country-as a receiver-would be useful, I think. the MD who told me an endometrial biopsy would “pinch a bit” needed some empathy!
I’m glad you feel you are taking something away as well as giving, here. Sometimes I wonder if I’m the one doing all the receiving!
Comment by: Keith
2Eliza,
Thanks for doing the interview. Your thoughts on Scripture and other topics have been valuable for me and I have always appreciated our discussions whether we agreed totally or not. Thanks for “spending too much time reading and conversing on the blogs associated with off-the-map” because many of the rest of us are better off for your investment. Thanks.
Comment by: Helen M.
3Eliza, I’m sorry to hear about all your physical pain. I agree that the empathy it gives you is very valuable to your patients, but for your sake, I wish you could have come by the empathy a less painful way!
Comment by: Eliza
4Thanks for your comments! I was a little nervous about sharing so much personal physical stuff. (It’s funny - when docs get together, or write to alumni newsletters to give updates, they include alot of medical info about any significant diagnosis and treatment they’re getting. A doc’s obituary always includes the terminal diagnosis, as least all of them that I’ve read so far.)
Re experience and empathy - I coincidentally took on a research project a few years ago, giving 2-week placebo regimen of triple-antiretroviral drug therapy (placebo anti-HIV regimen, 9 pills a day at different times and with different instructions on how to take which ‘medication’) to medical students, using a before and after questionnaire plus an interview to assess for change in their understanding and empathy about how difficult it was for patients to take complicated drug regimens. The group was small enough, ~50 students, that it was hard to measure a difference between the half that took the medications and the half that didn’t, but the interview comments were rich, deep, and enthusiastic about the experience. (The paper was published last year in the Journal of General Internal Medicine, & that journal’s editors named it as one of their picks for the best paper of the year from their journal, along with ~25 other papers. That was a very pleasant surprise!)
As part of background research for writing the paper, I found out about a family practice residency program in California (where else ;) ) that admits their incoming interns to the hospital, incognito with assumed names and medical histories, for a few days so they can see what it’s like to be a patient. They fix it somehow so the “patients” don’t actually get surgery or medications, but they do dress them up - like, putting a cast on or having an intern be unable to walk & only able to use a wheelchair. (The only ward they don’t send interns to anymore is the psychiatry ward - first, confidentiality issues for the other patients, and second they had a problem a few years back with an intern insisting he or she wasn’t really a psychiatry patient but was really a healthy person pretending to be a psychiatry patient & if they would just call hospital administration they could confirm this…you can imagine how long it took for the psychiatry ward staff to believe that.)
I also found a book, now out of print, that’s a collection of docs recounting their own illnesses and injuries and what they learned from the experience. But unfortunately, it’s really not something you can appreciate just by reading about it, and most docs don’t seem to have any real sense, until late in their practices & lives, what it’s like to be a patient in our system, and to have health problems. Anyway, that’s more on that topic!
Comment by: Eliza
5Also - I realized after doing this interview that I was interpreting “lost” as I imagine an evangelical might use it, not as Jim and off-the-map seem to use it. I’m guessing here, but it seems like the meaning in the first situation is “you are lost & I know how you can be found”, while the meaning in the second case is “we lost you & we’d like to know how to be able to get you back, to include you”. Now, this is my unchurched brain coming to these conclusions, mind you, so please correct me if I’m wrong - on either!
Comment by: Helen M.
6Eliza, I was trying to define ‘lost’ as an evangelical would when I set up the interview questions, so you interpreted it the same way as me!
Comment by: Karen
7Thanks, Eliza! I really appreciate your honesty and am sorry to hear about your physical problems.
Comment by: Eliza
8It’s funny, my varous aches and pains are such a part of me that I’ve really come to accept them, work around them when possible & put up with them when it’s not. It’s just that the interview question asked what one thing you would change about your life, and while others might have picked different things about me that could stand to change :) , this is the one I’d vote for. It’s kind of odd to have highlighted it in the interview, because I don’t talk about it much, so only my closest family and 2 friends know the full story & that’s it a daily ongoing thing.
Y’all just make it so easy to share those secrets I wouldn’t tell anyone else!
Comment by: Julie marie
9well, I am glad to hear about your study Eliza! I am not surprised to hear it is well received and up for an honor.
I got to thinking, I shouldn’t have singled out MDs. RNs can be pretty oblivious about pain - my worst sufferring came post fusion when the RNs misunderstood the MDs pain managment instructions and left me clock watching all night long. I was in too much pain to advocate for myself, or even to think to call my husband to advocate for me. It was awful. I did get an apology from the charge nurse the next morning, after I had told my MD about my previous evening and asked that he make his orders very clear. I suspect my husband also gave them a piece of his mind after he found me in the morning with dark circles under my puffy eyes from being up in unrelieved pain all night long. So RNs could use some exposure to the other side of the bed too. the only person who showed me any caring was the aide who came around to take vitals. :(
My takeaway from that situation though? Have a family member spend the first postop night in your room. They will be able to think clearly and advocate for you when you can’t do it for yourself.
Comment by: Eliza
10Yikes, what an awful situation, Julie! Good suggestion, having a family member stay as your “pain doula” or even “oversee care” doula. I did that for my mom when she had back surgery at a hospital…on the day a nursing strike started. She had a per diem RN who usually worked in Emergency Departments providing her postop neurosurgery care…it was a yikes experience.
RNs are probably more likely than MDs to be patient-sensitive, but some RNs are pretty strict. Likewise, some aides are really attuned to patients and some aren’t. It doesn’t help when they are all over-worked, running from one patient to the next just trying to get the basics done. It’s a rough job, as I’m sure you know!
Comment by: Karen
11Oh my goodness - that’s excruciating just to read about, Julie. I can’t imagine how horrible that night must’ve been for you.
Very good reminder, and I will take it to heart next time anyone I knows has surgery. Thanks!
Comment by: Julie Marie
12Yikes indeed. she’s lucky you were there for her. I’m sure the per diem nurse was grateful too.
so true. thats one reason I left acute care. I believe health care delivery as profit making enterprise is a really bad idea. capitalism works for many things, and it has worked to advance medical knowledge as well…but it also sets up a difficult paradox. my first job as an RN was in a not for profit chain. I didn’t know how lucky I was to start there, at the time. I know that now.
we really need to look at what we value in this country. we say we value justice, equality, blah blah blah but our actions indicate we value entertainment more. but i’ll save that thought for another post on another day.
Comment by: David H
13I’m not sure you will get back to this, Eliza. But I just read the interview and wanted to express my appreciation for your openness.
I was raised Evangelical, Fundementalist or what ever the term of the moment might be. From that experience I have developed much more empathy for those who are searching than for those who are “found.” Too many who have found it (whatever that means) have stopped searching. If God could be so easily found, then you would think everyone would not only have found him/her/it, but they would all have found the same entity.
As for the term lost, it has taken on an all new connotation for me. My older brother committed suicide when 20 after a bout with mental disorders and drugs. To me, he was lost, not only in that he was no longer with us, but also in that his problems in part grew from him not knowing himself or his place in the world. Having spoken to convicts and drug addicts, as well upright citizens through my work as a journalist, I’m pretty convinced there are lots of people who are lost. I have met many people who aren’t sure how they arrived where they are and don’t have a clue where their going even for the next step in their life. That’s lost.
Most of the good aetheists I know are like the good believers, they never stop looking. They aren’t necessarily looking for God or proof, they are just constantly examining themselves, the world around them and the things they are told and determining how those things do or don’t fit into their belief system. And they are willing to consider change if something comes along that indicates they should. If there are misdirected non-believers, I think many would insist there are just as many misdirected believers.
From reading this, I am guessing you are over-burdened, like me, with books you wish you could read. I will recommend just one that is relatively short. The book is “The Jesus I Never Knew,” by Philip Yancey. Yancey is a recovering fundementalist and the book takes a look at how Church tradition and modern culture have colored the biblical story of Jesus. It also examines how Jesus has been adapted for a variety of other purposes — especially in movies. It was one of the books that helped me see that the faith under which I was raised wasn’t the end (maybe not even the beginning) of my search.
Comment by: Richard Kindig
14Hi, Eliza,
I appreciate your thoughtful comments…I’d love for you to meet my daughter Becky who is an occupational therapist and a public health grad student at UW. She lives in Seattle too, obviously.
In my website above I present the view that the Lutheran pastor along with the main stream of Christianity is wrong in thinking that atheists, Jews, and most of the rest of the world are lost if they don’t accept Christ in this life. I think you’ll find the approach reasonable and a much more rational explanation of the real facts we can all see around us. Keep thinking and questioning!
Richard
Comment by: Helen
15Hi Richard,
Thanks for your comments.
You wrote:
With all due respect I think it’s rather unlikely that Eliza would consider what your website says ‘a rational explanation of the real facts we can see all around us’ since she’s an atheist. It says she is in the interview but perhaps you missed that, since it’s quite long.