Posted by Helen on: 07.19.2006 /
There was one newspaper response in last week’s edition, in response to my article, while I was on vacation:
Progressive Christians are Real Christians Too
Marty kindly posted a link to it last week in the comments to Local Feedback on my Article and there has already been some discussion of it there.
This week there are more responses. This is an encouraging one!
Mildenhall’s article on struggling with faith is appreciated
I think this poem may be a response to my article, although it makes no reference to it:
The most substantive response is from someone, now retired, who was pastor of one of the local Lutheran churches for over 40 years:
Going to church anyway … and why
I haven’t met him but I met his daughter through being in Bible study with her some years ago. I enjoyed being in the study with her: she’s a thoughtful, smart woman whose comments I appreciated.
I really like his opening comments:
Helen Mildenhall’s thought-provoking July 5 Viewpoints article about why she no longer goes to church calls for serious reflection as she tells of her struggles with God, Jesus, and the church—matters of ultimate importance in my view. The temptation is to either dismiss her concerns or rush to a defense of God without first pausing to think about what she is saying and taking her words not as a reason to argue, but a call to the church to realize that she speaks for many. We do well to listen carefully and go about our calling in our congregations with deepened awareness of how much is at stake. Here, after a bit of my own reflection, is an effort to shed light rather than heat on not only going to church but why I do.
This is awesome too — I’m so glad he’s open to it:
Sometimes there are the surprises of God’s love at work through those who make no claim to any faith whatsoever.
He also says:
The church, as I know it and love it, is not the 100 percent club of those who have God all figured out, but instead is the food repository where one beggar helps another find the bread that lasts. It’s the hospital where those broken on the wheel of life find healing and hope and the gathering of the forgiven who are learning how to make forgiveness stronger than hate in the daily rounds. It’s the community of those who are glad to come together for Sabbath worship and fellowship, not because they are required to but because they get to.
To him church is a hospital…interesting. I’m glad that’s been his experience.
He closes with:
All that notwithstanding, when faith becomes unambiguously transparent in works of love that show through in the congregations of our communities, then those who have opted out in disillusionment might find good reason to think again on what they are missing.
Indeed.
He seems like a nice guy and I’m impressed by his article in response to mine. I’ll probably write to the newspaper in response to him.
I’ve had other local feedback which I’ll write about soon — this seems like enough for one blog entry!
I’m wondering why no pastor from my ex-church has responded to the article either in the newspaper, or to me personally. They must be aware of it. (By the way, three friends from there did send me personal letters in response to it which I’ll say more about soon)
I wonder if the pastors interpreted my choice to write what I did in the newspaper as proof that dialog with me is a waste of time. I guess I won’t know unless I ask. I’ll ask.
Comment by: Julie Marie
1 07/19/06 5:07 AM | Comment Link |I am very impressed by these thoughts. I think this congregation has a worthy pastor.
Comment by: Julie marie
2 07/19/06 5:19 AM | Comment Link |wow, Helen. This time I hope you give yourself permission to terminate the conversation if the response to your quesiton if inappropriate. I think you are very strong.
Comment by: Helen M.
3 07/19/06 5:35 AM | Comment Link |Thanks Julie Marie. Good idea about giving myself permission to discontinue any conversation which is too difficult!
Yes, I am impressed with what that pastor wrote. He’s actually retired now - hopefully his successor is filling his shoes well.
Comment by: Helen M.
4 07/19/06 7:10 AM | Comment Link |Julie Marie, I’m glad I asked. Now I know - or at least have some idea - instead of guessing.
I appreciate that the pastor I asked responded and took time to write me an honest reply. He has done his best to be kind since I first knew him.
I say this as respectfully as possible: as best I can tell, they didn’t respond because they figured the kindest thing they could do was not tell me how they felt about the article.
I don’t think it’s going to be discussable (so, no need to make decisions about ending any discussions) and I don’t like to guess about other peoples’ thoughts and motives so that may well be all I can say on the matter.
Comment by: Julie Marie
5 07/19/06 7:44 AM | Comment Link |so much kindness flowing around up there. Yuk.
obviously I have my own baggage, and I haven’t been brave enough to haul it into the church office and open it up. I doubt I ever will. I just need to keep movin’ on.
Comment by: Helen M.
6 07/19/06 8:52 AM | Comment Link |Sometimes it’s a wise decision just to move on. I find a lot of wisdom in the Bible verse:
When I didn’t have freedom not to agree with it, I found a lot of comfort in the italicized part, because sometimes we do all we can, and yet because it doesn’t just depend on us, we are not able to resolve a situation or reconcile with someone else.
Comment by: Julie Marie
7 07/19/06 9:19 AM | Comment Link |I think the beginning of wisdom is identifiying that point - when there will be no peace, because it does not depend on you. Forgiveness without reconciliaton is sometimes the only workable solution.
Comment by: Helen M.
8 07/19/06 9:26 AM | Comment Link |Yes indeed. We do need to forgive and/or let go to gain our own freedom back. As someone said, the other person did it to you once. But each time you think about it, you do it to yourself all over again.
Comment by: Doreen
9 07/19/06 2:41 PM | Comment Link |It’s nice to know there are those who “got” what you wrote.
It should give us hope.
Comment by: Helen M.
10 07/19/06 2:48 PM | Comment Link |Doreen,
“If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.” - Jesus.
Comment by: Peter Walker
11 07/20/06 10:17 PM | Comment Link |I’m confused by the comment from Audrey deCoursey… what in your article is she taking offense to, Helen?
Comment by: Helen M.
12 07/21/06 4:49 AM | Comment Link |Good question, Peter.
We discussed her letter a little where Marty posted the link to it originally.
Anyway this is my best guess:
a) she reacted negatively to my saying I didn’t want to go to a different religious community because they still present their way to God as superior
b) she is generally sensitive (with good reason, in fact) about how liberal Christians are constantly being described as ‘not real Christians’ by conservative Christians. I’m not sure why she thought I was doing that - perhaps because my article was mostly about me and conservative Christianity. But that was because that’s what my experience has been, not because I think she is ‘not a real Christian’.
In fact I share her annoyance at the arrogance of Christians who say “We have the right to claim the name Christian and you don’t”. How can they be so sure they have Jesus’ stamp of approval more than she does? I don’t see how.
I thought it was rather ironic that (and maybe I will tread on some toes here) she calls herself a progressive Christian yet is objecting to me thinking her church would present their way to God as superior. Maybe I misrepresented the specific superiority problem - however, I do see a superior attitude implied by someone feeling they have to add the adjective ‘progressive’ to ‘Christian’. Because it implies “I am more progressive than some other Christians”. I don’t know how not to regard the use of a term like this as asserting superiority in progressiveness over other Christians.
One on one this may well not be an issue. But my comment was about avoiding groups and I certainly want to avoid a group whose very label is likely to make it irresistible for them to pat themselves on the back for being more ‘progressive’ than other Christians. Since that’s the sort of thing groups tend to do.
Anyway I sent a response to her to the newspaper editor but after the Rev Lueking’s article was posted I wrote a response to that too and said to the newspaper editor I’d rather have that published, of the two of them. Since the Rev Lueking’s article was much more substantive and related to mine. And I think that’s what he’s doing to do.
Comment by: JG
13 07/21/06 9:13 AM | Comment Link |You say: “All I want to do is get on with my life and respect how other people get on with theirs—as long as they’re trying to make the world a better place.”
You have also said on Jason’s website: “But does universalism stop you caring about other people and wanting to make the world a better place?”
(http://www.jasonclark.ws/2006/07/15/the-evangelical-universalist)
I respect your position and appreciate your honesty as to where you stand. I am saddened that you have become disillusioned with church but have some understanding of how and why this can happen.
I can see the genuine desire to “make the world a better place” and to “care about other people” and take nothing away from that at all.
But merely as a thought to think about. What if your belief about what makes the world a better place conflicts with what some else believes? Some people believe the world would be a better place if there was no religion eg John Lennon. Marx believed his theories, if practiced would make the world a better place. Terrorists believe the world will be a better place if they pursue their campaign of terror.
Some believe that happiness comes through having multiple sexual partners and see exclusive relationships and marriage as “the enemy” to be opposed. Others have been left broken by being loved then abandoned.
Even if we leave God out of the picture altogether and all seek to make the world a better place, we will still have just as many conflicts. And many of the arguments that arise in relation to religion will continue to apply eg why should you seek to impose your views on what will make the world a better place upon others? What if what someone else is doing does not accord with your ideas of what will make the world a better place?
The difference is that if God is left out of the equation, it is purely your view against someone else’s with no way to evaluate relative merits. Whereas with God, it is not my views or the other person’s views that ultimately count but God’s view which we are both seeking to understand.
JG
Comment by: NCxian
14 07/21/06 9:33 AM | Comment Link |It is hard to know what to call yourself when you are a Christian who is not a FE (fundamentalist evangelical). When many people hear Christian, they think FE because that is all they know. We have heard many people say that in this discussion and over at the Discussion Board. So how do you “unlabel” yourself without applying another label? What do you think would be good? I sometimes think of myself as a “Real Christian”, but that has some seriously bad connotations (like other people are not real Christians), so I never say it outloud. “Liberal” is a word that has been so vilified you can hardly say that! What would work?
Comment by: Doreen
15 07/21/06 10:45 AM | Comment Link |I use this one:
non-traditional Christian
It makes others curious rather than defensive or angry. Then when the next question is asked (it always is), “How do you define that?” you can state your views and they are yours, not necessarily tied to a label, a denomination, a minister, etc.
If anyone tries that, I’d love to hear the result!
Comment by: Helen M.
16 07/21/06 11:03 AM | Comment Link |NCxian wrote
Those are great questions, NCxian. I think labels are always problematic. Perhaps (and I’m just making this up as I go along ;)) pragmatically the best option is to choose one which is non-offensive and intriguing and enigmatic enough (hopefully) to entice people to ask you what it means. And then listen when you tell them, and then the label won’t matter because they won’t rely on it anymore to tell them about you.
Doreen, I like ‘non-traditional Christian’.
Comment by: NCxian
17 07/21/06 11:20 AM | Comment Link |I do too. It is “enigmatic” enough, as Helen’s suggests, to start a conversation instead of end it.
My only hesitation, and its just an “on principle” thing, is that I am not sure I am willing to cede the word “traditional” to the FE crowd. I think there is a lot of Christian tradition that would include me (or that I would include in me?). Just not the current, highly visible “traditional” of the FEs. For instance, the current “traditional” view on final things would be the Left Behind/end times thing. And we know, from the dialogue going on on the DB, that that is a fairly recent development in Christian thought. It would be more “traditional” to have a very different reading of Christian (and Jewish) apocalyptic literature. IMO.
Comment by: Helen M.
18 07/21/06 11:22 AM | Comment Link |JG, welcome to CatE! Thanks for your response. I reposted most of it as a new blog entry, for comments.
Comment by: Audrey deCoursey
19 09/6/06 8:52 PM | Comment Link |Audrey deCoursey’s Response to Discussion on “Conversation at the Edge’
—–
I am grateful for finding this discussion page, because I certainly could not have expressed my full views on this subject within the limits of the newspaper’s guidelines for letters. I’m sure no one wants to see the Wednesday Journal turn into a mag accounting the full faith journeys of Audrey or Helen, so it is much more appropriate to continue this conversation online where we are freer to focus on ourselves.
I regret that my letter had the sharp tone it ended up with. It didn’t include enough expression of my sincere appreciation for the self-work Helen has clearly engaged in through her struggles, and for her courage in putting herself out as a “doubter’ or however we might call her state of questioning the faith. The publication of her story has surely changed her social relationships with fellow congregants at her former church, and as one coming from a “traditionally-progressive’ Christian community, I can hardly fathom the pain conservatives might inflict on one who falters from their ranks. So I ought to have begun my letter with my deep thanks to Helen for raising the discussion.
In retrospect, I am rather surprised at myself for the vehemence of my public reaction to her article. I know I always react strongly INWARDLY to mis-categorizations of Christians as uniformly conservative and close-minded to other faiths and non-faith traditions, but usually I keep these irritations to myself. This time I was sparked to outrage not only by the article’s general characterization of all Christians as conservative as the ones in her church (without introducing the article with the disclaimer that many other sorts of Christians are out there) - but also by the article’s blithe dismissal of those other sorts of Christians in the closing paragraphs, when all of us were lumped in with those conservative Christians who we work very hard to be different from! We liberal/progressive/nontraditional/nonReligiousRight Christians were acknowledged for once, but then we were cast aside as no more relevant or mature than the Christians of Helen’s home church, without being seriously posited as an alternative! Helen didn’t take time to explain the differences among Christians and why she rejects all kinds of Christians, yet she took the time to point out that she did reject even the more liberal incarnations of Christianity. Of course, she does not have to do her research and try out every sect of Christianity before she decides to defect from the church - but she DOES have to do so if she is going to claim she knows enough about every sect enough to sweep them into the classification of “claiming their way to God is superior.’
Now for the personal bit. I and many of my friends here at seminary are devoting our lives to what we see as the ministry Jesus calls us to: justice-making, creating communities of hospitality for people of all sexual orientations and races and classes, ending war, supporting women and men making tough reproductive choices, and teaching humanity ways to live sustainably with the rest of our Earth community.
Unfortunately, that ministry rarely looks like the sort of ministry many North Americans and Europeans expect. We are saddled with the stereotypes of Christians that our conservative fellows have done a fine job instilling in the public mind: that to be Christian is to vote for GW Bush, bomb abortion clinics, deny civil rights to gay couples, and await gladly the coming apocalypse signaled by violence in the Middle East.
Not only conservatives have been responsible for the inculcation of this stereotype, however. Secular leftists, and even liberal Christians anxious to proclaim their belief in separation of church and state, have ceded the claim of “religious’ to the “right.’ Progressive Christian communities (such as the online ones through Sojourners, Faith in Public Life, the Beatitudes Society, and Progressive Christian Witness) regularly bemoan this fact, and the way this acceptance of equating religious with rightwing manifests itself in liberal activists being afraid to “come out’ as Christians in their leftist communities.
I feel that this is a small concern compared to the challenge of our common struggles for liberation — fighting corporate globalization, ending imperialist wars, addressing the impacts of global climate change, etc. — but I am saddened because it is such a NEEDLESS one that only misdirects our negative energy against each other instead of against the real forces of oppression. We progressive Christians have not only the real oppressors to work against, but also the baggage of labels our oppressors have perverted successfully enough that even our allies for justice use them against us, as distancing mechanisms that prevent our work in solidarity.
As for labels, I use progressive Christian because “progressive’ has more positive connotations than “liberal,’ I am told, and because “progressive Christian’ is a commonly used descriptor by those of us who discuss ourselves as such, when we need to distinguish ourselves from the more conservative or any other Christians. Generally, we refer to ourselves simply as Christian, but when we communicate outside our faith groups, especially in secular media, we need to qualify our Christianity, exactly because of the unfortunate baggage I have detailed here. I also feel that my form of Christianity is extremely traditional, in that I believe in the simple, nonhierarchical, communalist, pacifist Christianity the early Jesus Movement and the 18th-century reformers of my denomination historically ascribed to. I won’t call myself non-traditional, then, but I recognize that since tradition is never one thing, I do practice differently than many Christian traditions, and thus I am both traditional and non-traditional.
I recognize the pain Christianity has caused so many people, throughout the world and its history. I fully acknowledge the right of individuals and peoples to reject Christianity from their spiritual journeys. I do not believe every person on Earth needs to claim the name of Christian, for my sake or for their sake or for Jesus’ sake. I trust people to make their own choices about their own religious practices, so long as their choices leave me free to live fully human and to practice religion as I choose, too.
BUT! I do hold my peers in liberation movements and in interfaith dialogue accountable to take “my Christianity’ seriously — for my benefit, and for the movement’s (liberation movements suffer when the tired simplification of religious=rightwing is sustained by our own lack of imagination or tolerance). I do demand that if they intend to tell me who is a Christian and who is not, that they consider fully the consequences of that imposition. I do expect them to get beyond the stereotypes, to recognize the diversity within Christianity, to see the progressive Christians who are important players in justice work as they are and BECAUSE OF their faith.
I do hope, with all my being, that I can make others understand that this work that I do IS Christianity, too, and I hope that those others who I am reaching out to will take my outstretched arms as a sign of peace and trust and will honor my honesty enough to believe me and ask me serious questions and not sit contended with their arms wrapped tightly around their comfortable assumptions about my faith.
When I am let down by those who I expect more of, I get very frustrated, and I do not always respond as peacefully as I am told Jesus might have. I become saddened by the reminder that Jesus continues to suffer the embarrassing pain of having the message of peace he lived and died to bring us contorted and exploited to further violence that directly counters his message. Jesus was not only killed for his radical teachings, but his death and teachings continue to be used to kill and to support institutions his teachings meant to bring down.
Remembering this is not easy, but it is the fuel for me to keep struggling through this life as a progressive Christian witness. Reclaiming the name and ministry of Jesus is a challenging, constant mission, but I can’t imagine a better one for this life.
Comment by: Helen
20 09/7/06 5:05 AM | Comment Link |Thanks for taking time to post your comments here, Audrey. I’ll respond more specifically to what you wrote when I have time.
Comment by: Helen
21 09/7/06 11:16 AM | Comment Link |Audrey wrote:
Yes it has.
Actually, on the whole they have shown kind concern.
It’s hard to explain where I’m at and that’s frustrating. It probably isn’t possible for them not to be concerned about me spiritually, given what I wrote, so me saying “I’m fine, really” doesn’t really get us anywhere.
It’s fair to say I didn’t exactly realize what I might be getting myself into when I accepted Ken Trainor’s invitation to write about why I don’t go to church anymore. Now when I’m out and about Oak Park I wonder who has read what and what they think. It would be impossible for me to go to my former church now and not wonder what everyone was thinking. Evidently some people there were upset about the article but they seem to have adopted a “If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all” approach. So I’m not sure who they are and haven’t heard first-hand exactly what upset them. I didn’t think about all those ramifications beforehand.
In a way I’m glad to have got it out in the open and if someone were to say to me “putting it in the newspaper was not the kindest way to let me know” I would probably agree. But I didn’t intend to hurt anyone.
Thank you for saying that.
I think this is a ‘genre’ issue - I wanted this to be a personal story that was simply told and widely accessible.
And my personal story is about being a conservative Christian in a conservative church, and then finding I was developing very significant doubts and questions about those beliefs, and eventually leaving.
I actually do sympathize with you about how when people hear “Christian” they tend to think “evangelical Christian” and not realize there are progressives out there. I didn’t intend to further that misperception. I’d like to see it change, just like you.
But - with all due respect, my story was not the place to point out all the different kinds of Christians that are out there. That simply is not what it was about.
Audrey, “their way to God is superior” was perhaps an unwise choice of words.
What I meant by that was not that progressive Christians have beliefs as exclusive as conservative Christians.
On the other hand, my experience is that when any like-minded group gets together on the basis of their like-mindedness, group dynamics tend to foster an environment of “we who are in this group are better than those who aren’t in it”. That is what I’m disinclined to participate in. And I do have first-hand evidence as well that, yes, it does happen in liberal Christian communities also (and in online nontheist communities).
Anyway, if you call yourself progressive, thereby implying other Christians aren’t progressive, am I not right that you are saying you’re better than them by being more ‘progressive’?
To pick up on this in particular, from the above paragraph:
With all due respect, I’m not convinced that all progressive Christians are more relevant and mature than all conservative ones, or that their groups are more relevant and mature than conservative groups, period.
I simply don’t draw lines like that. I think maturity and relevance vary from individual to individual and the group dynamics of any like-minded group seem as likely to bring out immature as mature behavior.
Did I seriously consider a liberal church as an alternative? To some extent but - as well as being wary of the group dynamics of like-minded groups, I also wasn’t convinced I wanted to be at any sort of religious meetings. It’s just not something I want to spend time doing right now - it doesn’t fit with my life priorities. Bottom line: I’d rather be with my family at weekends, who have no interest in being at religious meetings.
At Off The Map we share your interest in furthering such things. We want to encourage people to be out there, living out their beliefs in a way that makes the world a genuinely better place for all the people who live in it. If you read more about us I hope you’ll see that.
We agree that the type of ministry you and your friends are devoted to seems closer to simply following Jesus than some of the other things [some types of] Christians are out there doing today.
We do understand that it is.
We are interested in peoples’ own testimony about themselves, what they believe (or don’t believe) and what they do. Our goal is to ask them questions and listen when they answer - rather than labelling them at the outset and assuming we already know all about them so, why ask questions or listen?
I’m sorry I let you down. It was not my intention to marginalize you as a Christian.
Anyway, Jesus got angry too, sometimes ;-)
Many here would echo what you said. I think you will find like-minded people here (but hopefully a group of them who are trying their best not to form a self-congratulatory in-group ;-))
Thanks for your comments. Feel free to join other discussions on here if you wish.