I think one of the distinctives of a Jesus-centered faith is that the teachings and example of Jesus are given the highest authority. McLaren makes the statement that we interpret Paul in light of Jesus and not Jesus in light of Paul.
I think another thing that distinguishes Jesus-centered faith is seeing Christ in the Bible rather than just a bunch of inspirational stories. For example, in Bible-centered faith the story of David and Goliath is a story of how God will help us through trying times if we only trust Him. In Jesus-centered faith David prefigures Christ as the one who rises up and delivers the nation of Israel.
I’m not sure we should see these as alternatives or in conflict with each other. Faith involves lots of things and it is more a matter of achieving the right balance rather than of emphasising or highlighting one thing over another.
How do we know anything about Christ? If someone claims that Jesus taught something, how do we know whether or not their claim is true or not? People can make Jesus out to be whoever they like - or even claim to be Jesus! We need the Bible.
For me faith is about relationship as well as about beliefs. So the Bible alone is not enough.
Traditionally we have God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 22:36-38 talks about loving God and loving your neighbour. So are we to have a Jesus centred or God centred faith or a people centred faith? Are we to focus in on ourselves, “upwards” to God or outwards to others? Again, these are not mutually exclusive - we need the right balance.
I’m a son, husband and father. So am I parent centred, wife centred or child centred? Or employer centred, friend centred, computer centred etc etc? I’m sure I do fail to get the balance right but balance is what I need to seek rather than to emphasise one thing over another.
The Bible portrays Jesus’ own faith as being Bible-centered (where to him, Bible= Septuagint version of the Old Testament) so I would say anyone who says they have a Jesus-centered faith but not a Bible-centered one needs to deal with that.
(It is possible to deal with - after all, it’s a rather circular argument to say: the Bible is true because the Bible says Jesus says the Bible as true)
Having a Jesus-centered faith may give helpful room to people who have trouble with parts of the Bible which imo, make little or no practical difference, but become a big deal if one ‘has to believe they are literally true’
I think one of the distinctives of a Jesus-centered faith is that the teachings and example of Jesus are given the highest authority. McLaren makes the statement that we interpret Paul in light of Jesus and not Jesus in light of Paul.
Interesting point, Rachel.
We’ve already had some discussion of the emphasis on Paul’s teachings vs Jesus’ teachings in Christianity, here and on the discussion board. Ok, found it:
I think another thing that distinguishes Jesus-centered faith is seeing Christ in the Bible rather than just a bunch of inspirational stories. For example, in Bible-centered faith the story of David and Goliath is a story of how God will help us through trying times if we only trust Him. In Jesus-centered faith David prefigures Christ as the one who rises up and delivers the nation of Israel.
Bob, it doesn’t have to be one or the other, right? Presumably seeing Jesus prefigured in David doesn’t preclude us being inspired by the story of David and Goliath, that God will help us through trying times if we trust Him?
I’m not sure we should see these as alternatives or in conflict with each other. Faith involves lots of things and it is more a matter of achieving the right balance rather than of emphasising or highlighting one thing over another.
I like your approach, JG.
How do we know anything about Christ? If someone claims that Jesus taught something, how do we know whether or not their claim is true or not? People can make Jesus out to be whoever they like - or even claim to be Jesus! We need the Bible.
I take your point but - one possibility in the universe of all possibilities is that Jesus is real and the Bible comprises human attempts to describe Jesus which are not 100% correct.
For me faith is about relationship as well as about beliefs. So the Bible alone is not enough.
With the Bible and without relationship I think someone would end up living a very empty, rule-driven, left.
Traditionally we have God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 22:36-38 talks about loving God and loving your neighbour. So are we to have a Jesus centred or God centred faith or a people centred faith? Are we to focus in on ourselves, “upwards” to God or outwards to others? Again, these are not mutually exclusive - we need the right balance.
Jesus says (according to the Bible ;)) that those two commands to love are ‘alike’ which I interpret as meaning, they are the same: you can’t love people and not love God and you can’t love God and not love people.
I’m a son, husband and father. So am I parent centred, wife centred or child centred? Or employer centred, friend centred, computer centred etc etc? I’m sure I do fail to get the balance right but balance is what I need to seek rather than to emphasise one thing over another.
I absolutely agree (she says, as she lurches from one state of imbalance to the next ;))
I’ve observed that the “bible believers” can quickly develop a “tone” that is condemnatory and off putting.
I agree that the bible is an important guide to our faith, and as I read it now I try to read it with a spirit of grace.
Seeing how much my thoughts have changed over the last six months also helps keep me humble about how I use the Bible. IMO I wasn’t “wrong” before, but I think I have more insight now…even if the result of that insight has been a paradoxical confusion.
sigh. there is certainly something comforting about absolute certainty.
I think for me, the problem is not with the Bible but with the way people seek to use - as with so many other things.
A sharp instrument in the hands of a caring and skilled surgeon can bring tremendous benefit - and save lives. That same instrument in the hands of a mugger, or poor surgeon, can bring death. The problem isn’t with the instrument but with the hand wielding it!
I like the image of the Bible as a map - perhaps because of the amount of time I have spent in the past orienteering. We use the map to help navigate our way. I have absolute confidence in the map but not in my map reading abilities. There are some symbols of the map which don’t mean a thing to me. There are many features on the ground where I haven’t got a clue how they would appear on the map. And there are things on the ground which don’t appear on the map at all.
Sometimes, I have thought I have been at one place on the map and matched everything on the map to what I found around me only to later find I was completely wrong and I had been wandering around looking in the wrong place.
Believing in divine inspiration, I do have absolute confidence in the Bible but absolutely NOT in my ability to understand it.
Helen: “… as she lurches from one state of imbalance to the next ” - yes -you and me both! It is one thing knowing what we should do, quite another actually achieving it!!
I think for me, the problem is not with the Bible but with the way people seek to use - as with so many other things.
A sharp instrument in the hands of a caring and skilled surgeon can bring tremendous benefit - and save lives. That same instrument in the hands of a mugger, or poor surgeon, can bring death. The problem isn’t with the instrument but with the hand wielding it!
In my view, part of the issue here is: who (or what) do I worship? I worship Jesus; I do not worship the Bible. That does not diminish the importance of the Bible and, as an evangelical, I do believe that the Bible is inspired. But Jesus is the center of my faith; he is the object of my worship and devotion. Without Jesus, there is no Christian faith.
Remember, for the first couple of centuries of the church, Christians did not have the Bible as we know it today. And I would argue that the first 300 years of the church (pre-Constantine) was one of the most vibrant periods of radical and devoted Christian witness. Again, that is not to diminish the importance of the Scripture but to recognize that it is possible to worship the Bible, to worship Paul or Peter without realizing it. And thus to dethrone Jesus as our King, our rabbi, our master, our guru (as Christians in India have called him), as the object of our devotion and our supreme example.
I am really interested in comments in this thread and agree with most of them.
I think though, there is a disturbing trend emerging in some quarters of the “emerging” church, doing away with Biblical authority, yet claiming to be totally Christ centred. I see this as a reaction to blind faith Christianity, but am troubled by it and unsure of how to counter it.
I think that in an effort to avoid old fashioned propositional evangelism/apologetics, we are perhaps dangerously close to abandoning objectivity altogether. At the end of the day Christianity is highly objective (at least it should be) and highly propositional - e.g. Jesus Christ did die on the cross as a sacrifice for sin etc. I think we are leaning towards wanting our cake and eating it too which can be a dangerous path to follow.
I read a testimony from an “ex-evangelical” linked from the Off the Wall site and can see a whole succession of bad teaching that lead her to the point that she abandoned an ostensibly objective faith to follow her gut instead - right out the church door.
I think that this where it is important to still be able to “give the reason for the hope that is in you” in objective terms. It is still important to have the answers to things like evolution, death, the Bible as God’s word - even though they may not be needed in the early days of reaching out to someone in agape.
Of course we need to be Christ centred, but in being Christ centred we also need to be Biblical, at least if we are going to grow our new converts to maturity.
Any ideas for addressing the move away from the Bible I am seeing in some of the communities I am currently working with?
Comment by: Rachel
1 07/27/06 7:51 PM | Comment Link |I think one of the distinctives of a Jesus-centered faith is that the teachings and example of Jesus are given the highest authority. McLaren makes the statement that we interpret Paul in light of Jesus and not Jesus in light of Paul.
Comment by: Bob
2 07/27/06 8:10 PM | Comment Link |I think another thing that distinguishes Jesus-centered faith is seeing Christ in the Bible rather than just a bunch of inspirational stories. For example, in Bible-centered faith the story of David and Goliath is a story of how God will help us through trying times if we only trust Him. In Jesus-centered faith David prefigures Christ as the one who rises up and delivers the nation of Israel.
Comment by: JG
3 07/28/06 4:27 AM | Comment Link |I’m not sure we should see these as alternatives or in conflict with each other. Faith involves lots of things and it is more a matter of achieving the right balance rather than of emphasising or highlighting one thing over another.
How do we know anything about Christ? If someone claims that Jesus taught something, how do we know whether or not their claim is true or not? People can make Jesus out to be whoever they like - or even claim to be Jesus! We need the Bible.
For me faith is about relationship as well as about beliefs. So the Bible alone is not enough.
Traditionally we have God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 22:36-38 talks about loving God and loving your neighbour. So are we to have a Jesus centred or God centred faith or a people centred faith? Are we to focus in on ourselves, “upwards” to God or outwards to others? Again, these are not mutually exclusive - we need the right balance.
I’m a son, husband and father. So am I parent centred, wife centred or child centred? Or employer centred, friend centred, computer centred etc etc? I’m sure I do fail to get the balance right but balance is what I need to seek rather than to emphasise one thing over another.
Comment by: Helen M.
4 07/28/06 5:19 AM | Comment Link |The Bible portrays Jesus’ own faith as being Bible-centered (where to him, Bible= Septuagint version of the Old Testament) so I would say anyone who says they have a Jesus-centered faith but not a Bible-centered one needs to deal with that.
(It is possible to deal with - after all, it’s a rather circular argument to say: the Bible is true because the Bible says Jesus says the Bible as true)
Having a Jesus-centered faith may give helpful room to people who have trouble with parts of the Bible which imo, make little or no practical difference, but become a big deal if one ‘has to believe they are literally true’
Comment by: Helen M.
5 07/28/06 5:24 AM | Comment Link |Rachel wrote:
Interesting point, Rachel.
We’ve already had some discussion of the emphasis on Paul’s teachings vs Jesus’ teachings in Christianity, here and on the discussion board. Ok, found it:
Did Paul have Higher Standards than Jesus?
Comment by: Helen M.
6 07/28/06 5:26 AM | Comment Link |Bob wrote:
Bob, it doesn’t have to be one or the other, right? Presumably seeing Jesus prefigured in David doesn’t preclude us being inspired by the story of David and Goliath, that God will help us through trying times if we trust Him?
Comment by: Helen M.
7 07/28/06 5:33 AM | Comment Link |JG wrote:
I like your approach, JG.
I take your point but - one possibility in the universe of all possibilities is that Jesus is real and the Bible comprises human attempts to describe Jesus which are not 100% correct.
With the Bible and without relationship I think someone would end up living a very empty, rule-driven, left.
Jesus says (according to the Bible ;)) that those two commands to love are ‘alike’ which I interpret as meaning, they are the same: you can’t love people and not love God and you can’t love God and not love people.
I absolutely agree (she says, as she lurches from one state of imbalance to the next ;))
Comment by: Julie Marie
8 07/28/06 5:37 AM | Comment Link |I’ve observed that the “bible believers” can quickly develop a “tone” that is condemnatory and off putting.
I agree that the bible is an important guide to our faith, and as I read it now I try to read it with a spirit of grace.
Seeing how much my thoughts have changed over the last six months also helps keep me humble about how I use the Bible. IMO I wasn’t “wrong” before, but I think I have more insight now…even if the result of that insight has been a paradoxical confusion.
sigh. there is certainly something comforting about absolute certainty.
Comment by: JG
9 07/28/06 6:11 AM | Comment Link |I think for me, the problem is not with the Bible but with the way people seek to use - as with so many other things.
A sharp instrument in the hands of a caring and skilled surgeon can bring tremendous benefit - and save lives. That same instrument in the hands of a mugger, or poor surgeon, can bring death. The problem isn’t with the instrument but with the hand wielding it!
I like the image of the Bible as a map - perhaps because of the amount of time I have spent in the past orienteering. We use the map to help navigate our way. I have absolute confidence in the map but not in my map reading abilities. There are some symbols of the map which don’t mean a thing to me. There are many features on the ground where I haven’t got a clue how they would appear on the map. And there are things on the ground which don’t appear on the map at all.
Sometimes, I have thought I have been at one place on the map and matched everything on the map to what I found around me only to later find I was completely wrong and I had been wandering around looking in the wrong place.
Believing in divine inspiration, I do have absolute confidence in the Bible but absolutely NOT in my ability to understand it.
Helen: “… as she lurches from one state of imbalance to the next ” - yes -you and me both! It is one thing knowing what we should do, quite another actually achieving it!!
Comment by: Helen M.
10 07/28/06 6:23 AM | Comment Link |JG wrote:
Excellent point, JG!
Comment by: Rachel
11 07/28/06 6:59 AM | Comment Link |In my view, part of the issue here is: who (or what) do I worship? I worship Jesus; I do not worship the Bible. That does not diminish the importance of the Bible and, as an evangelical, I do believe that the Bible is inspired. But Jesus is the center of my faith; he is the object of my worship and devotion. Without Jesus, there is no Christian faith.
Remember, for the first couple of centuries of the church, Christians did not have the Bible as we know it today. And I would argue that the first 300 years of the church (pre-Constantine) was one of the most vibrant periods of radical and devoted Christian witness. Again, that is not to diminish the importance of the Scripture but to recognize that it is possible to worship the Bible, to worship Paul or Peter without realizing it. And thus to dethrone Jesus as our King, our rabbi, our master, our guru (as Christians in India have called him), as the object of our devotion and our supreme example.
Comment by: Andrew
12 07/29/06 12:38 AM | Comment Link |I am really interested in comments in this thread and agree with most of them.
I think though, there is a disturbing trend emerging in some quarters of the “emerging” church, doing away with Biblical authority, yet claiming to be totally Christ centred. I see this as a reaction to blind faith Christianity, but am troubled by it and unsure of how to counter it.
I think that in an effort to avoid old fashioned propositional evangelism/apologetics, we are perhaps dangerously close to abandoning objectivity altogether. At the end of the day Christianity is highly objective (at least it should be) and highly propositional - e.g. Jesus Christ did die on the cross as a sacrifice for sin etc. I think we are leaning towards wanting our cake and eating it too which can be a dangerous path to follow.
I read a testimony from an “ex-evangelical” linked from the Off the Wall site and can see a whole succession of bad teaching that lead her to the point that she abandoned an ostensibly objective faith to follow her gut instead - right out the church door.
I think that this where it is important to still be able to “give the reason for the hope that is in you” in objective terms. It is still important to have the answers to things like evolution, death, the Bible as God’s word - even though they may not be needed in the early days of reaching out to someone in agape.
Of course we need to be Christ centred, but in being Christ centred we also need to be Biblical, at least if we are going to grow our new converts to maturity.
Any ideas for addressing the move away from the Bible I am seeing in some of the communities I am currently working with?
Your servant,
Andrew
Comment by: Helen M.
13 07/29/06 3:12 AM | Comment Link |Hi Andrew, welcome to CatE!
Thanks for your thoughtful comments and question. I reposted them above as their own blog entry:
Bringing Emerging Churches back to the Bible