Posted by Rachel on: 08.03.2006 /
Since summer is family reunion time, we often find ourselves in contact with our extended family and those encounters can be challenging. Do you have family members who have values, philosophies, goals or beliefs that are significantly different from your own?
If so, how do you handle these differences? Do you follow the traditional advice to avoid talking about politics and religion (or other controversial matters) or do you wade right in?
Do you have family members who try to “convert” you to their point of view? Do find yourself trying to change their minds?
Comment by: Helen M.
1 08/3/06 2:01 PM | Comment Link |Some of my extended family are Christians; others are not.
Those who have strong viewpoints, if asked their honest opinion, would probably say “I would like to see more other family members sharing my beliefs (lack of beliefs)”.
Nevertheless, I don’t recall anyone obnoxiously trying to change the viewpoint of anyone else.
When we get together we focus on what we have in common rather than on what is different and that has worked pretty well.
I don’t think anyone wants to have a ‘debate’ about who is right.
There have been enough young children around the last several times we’ve been together that achieving in-depth conversation between the adults has mostly been impractical anyway ;)
Comment by: Julie Marie
2 08/3/06 2:01 PM | Comment Link |Family stuff is hard. I’ve been guilty of trying to change minds in the past, but have been put in my place. Now that I’m less the CE/FE it doesn’t matter and we’re more open with each other all around. I do have one extended family member I have avoided altogether for quite some time; the values are just so different and the attitudes are, quite frankly, offensive. Its funny, you’d think a FE and an atheist would be so far apart as to have nothing to discuss, but acutally, I am much closer, philosophically, to the As here than to this particular family member. And, this particular family member does swagger around with the thought that the correctness of the stated viewpoint should be intutively obvious to the most casual of observers.
*sigh* When I can’t avoid this person, I just infold. There is no point to discussion, and I wouldn’t want to do anything to make life harder. I try to keep things as superficial as I can.
Comment by: Helen M.
3 08/3/06 2:14 PM | Comment Link |Thinking about all my relationships and not necessarily family - I never like the ‘keep things as superficial as possible’ approach but it does seem to be the best available option sometimes.
Comment by: Julie Marie
4 08/3/06 2:31 PM | Comment Link |yeah…I’ve asked myself if I’m just being a coward by avoiding confrontation, and I have to say no. If this person were in my social circle but not connected to my family, I’d confront the arrogance and let the chips fall where they may.
I chose to hold my tongue because, as you say, its the best available option at this time.
Luckily, there are lots of kids running around, and that is quite the diversion! And it is a welcome point of common ground. We all love the new generation !
Comment by: Doreen
5 08/3/06 2:32 PM | Comment Link |My family and I don’t generally discuss politics or religion. We tend to discuss one another. I don’t have much of an extended family.
I only bring up politics or respond to my “right of Reagan” father when I want to get him going. It doesn’t take much. Here are 2 of my all-time favorites:
1 - Going with dad to pick up his paycheck, years before I came out of the closet. He gets back in the car shaking his head. “Damn gays,” he says. “You get one in there and they start hiring only their own kind.” Me, “Oh, sort of like straight white men have been doing for decades?”
2 - Mom mentions a TV Guide article where Maya Angelou states that many game shows, including “Jeopardy” are biased against women and minorities. “Isn’t that ridiculous?” dad asks. “No,” I say, “I agree with her.” (I was fairly neutral but just wanted to start something.)
Comment by: Rachel
6 08/3/06 3:21 PM | Comment Link |Ah, yes. I have a family member like that. And if you disagree with his brilliant and self-evident statement, he repeats it because clearly you must not have heard it correctly. I have learned to simply say, “I know we don’t agree and we will not change each others’ minds. So can we talk about something else?” And we have gotten to the point where he will agree to that. Oh, hallelujah!
LOL! I love it, Doreen! If you don’t mind me asking…how DID your dad react when you came out?
Comment by: Doreen
7 08/3/06 5:33 PM | Comment Link |I don’t mind at all Rachel. I was 28 at the time (I’m almost 48 now) and it is still the only time my dad ever told me he loves me. Right after I said it my mother started to say something (I told my siblings ahead of time and asked them to be in the room with me when I told my parents). My father interupted and said, “Well, you’re still our daughter and we still love you.”
Did I mention I came out the night before my mom’s cousin the priest’s 25th ordination anniversary party?
Do I have timing or what???
:)
p.s. It was actually less traumatic than mom’s elderly aunt asking me at the party, “Doreen, how much DO you weigh now???”
Comment by: Eliza
8 08/3/06 6:56 PM | Comment Link |Funny, but poignant too, Doreen!
One side of my biological family is stoic German, the other side is stoic Yankee. Religion is Not Discussed - it’s as if it doesn’t exist, or at least is ignored like other deeply personal topics in our family interactions. Politics, however, fills the gap - the entire lot (ok, it’s small family) is liberal, ranging only in how far left they are. As an example, my dad is in his 70’s & is white; he volunteers at Planned Parenthood and has been a member of the NAACP for decades.
A few months before I found the Off the Map ebay atheist site, I broached the topic of religion with my father, and (a separate time) with my uncle (one of my mother’s brothers) - each time in a one-on-one conversation, with trepidation, to feel out what they believed and also to practice having a conversation about religion (for which I had no role model, really). Interestingly, they are both unsure but basically are deists. My uncle has been going to UU services and Friends meetings, trying to find something that fits for him, also in his 70’s and wondering what the future holds.
The family I married into is more mainstream - a bunch of Episcopalians, with an offshoot of Lutherans in one branch, and a sister-in-law who married a Catholic and joined his faith. I think my husband (a former altar boy) is the only atheist on that side. When we get together with his family, they mention what their church groups are doing, but noone tries to convince us of anything. (In fact, I think they mention it less than they might if we were more like them - my mother-in-law and another sister-in-law sometimes say “I know you don’t believe in this, but…” before telling me some event or project their church is working on. I’m starting to wonder if someone painted a “don’t talk about religion” sign on my forehead?) As another reflection of their being closer to mainstream, they are more conservative than my husband and I are, and more so than any of my biological relatives. (Bush probably won the vote on that side of the family.) My husband speaks his mind, politically; points out what he sees as inconsistencies in what they believe and how they vote, though I don’t think he’s changed anyone’s vote yet. He and his mom can have pleasant arguments about political and religious topics; again, not something I really have any other model for, so I keep my mouth shut. Not sure where the line is, don’t want to offend!
Comment by: Eliza
9 08/3/06 7:07 PM | Comment Link |A few months ago, my mother-in-law was doing a crossword puzzle in the newspaper & was stuck on a few clues near the end. She asked, “Four letters, the clue is ‘Follows John’. Who follows John?” And I (known to them as Someone Who Does NOT Go To Church) created great confusion by piping up, “Acts! Acts follows John!” And then, to add to the amusing scene, I-the-atheist had to explain that those were 2 of the books in the New Testament. (Wouldn’t you know, Acts was the answer, and the rest of the crossword puzzle fell into place from there.) Also amusingly, none of them has asked how it is that I knew that!
Comment by: Julie Marie
10 08/4/06 3:57 AM | Comment Link |LOL Eliza, I love the irony in your story!
Comment by: Helen M.
11 08/4/06 5:03 AM | Comment Link |Me too, Julie Marie!
Eliza, I find it fascinating how incurious (is that a word?) people are at times.
Sometimes it’s annoyed me; at other times it’s been useful, like when I was going to church and didn’t believe what everyone else believed. I kept thinking someone would notice, but, either they didn’t or weren’t curious enough to pursue it.
Occasionally I’d say something in a one-on-one conversation and then think “ooops…now I’ve let the cat out of the bag!” only to have them not respond to what I said at all. Having realized that I probably didn’t want to go there anyway, I didn’t pursue it.
To this day I don’t know whether that happened because they lacked curiosity, were distracted (i.e. not listening) or because there was nowhere for such an off the map thought to attach to in their mental framework, it just sort of fell right out of their brain and was missed entirely. Maybe it was a combination of all three.
Or - a fourth option - what I said seemed revealing to me because I knew what it meant - but maybe it was in fact too subtle to give clues to someone convinced I had the same beliefs as them.
Anyway - in many ways my relationships with my friends are similar to those with my family. I want them all to go as well as possible. But here’s the difference - ultimately, if I lose a friend because I can’t accept their terms of ‘friendship’, so what? But I don’ t feel that way about my family. I don’t ever want to do anything that would strain my relationships with family members to the breaking point.
One reason is: when that happens, the next generation suffers by not being able to see grandparents or cousins or whatever. I don’t think that’s fair.
Comment by: Julie Marie
12 08/4/06 6:27 AM | Comment Link |I’ve found this to be true. With one friend, I think I’ve been quite clear about where I “am ” now. Or actually, maybe where I am not, because where I “am” in a fluid state. So we were talking the other day and she prattles on through a thick stack of ultra conservative judgemental opinions that are “biblical” and clearly, she was unaware that not only do I not agree, I think those thoughts are an unbecoming representation of Christianity.
Its not that she wasn’t listening to me all along. I think she just doesn’t get it. she loves me, and knows, without a doubt, that I love the Lord. And loving the Lord, for her, means xyz. She can’t move beyond that.
Comment by: Helen M.
13 08/4/06 6:34 AM | Comment Link |Julie Marie wrote:
Exactly. And that’s precisely what scares me about evangelical Christianity - the way it seems to place such rigid limits on how many people think.
I’ve read many stories on IIDB that made me sad, by children whose parents weren’t able to accept/handle their rejection of their parents’ faith. I expect the parents having ‘no mental box to put the information in’ was a factor. As well as the intense emotions inherent in the child-parent relationship, with parents tending to take things personally and feel like a failure if their child rejects their faith. Not to mention the “this means my child will go to hell” and all the heartache associated with that.
It’s things like this which make religion hard to discuss in families. Imo.
Comment by: Eliza
14 08/4/06 6:58 AM | Comment Link |Excellent insights!
An adult (or teen) child coming out as gay seems like the other major development that can create a long-lasting rift in parent-child relationships, so one that adult/teen children go to lengths to avoid bringing up, knowing their parent may reject them. Anyone know whether non-observant or atheist parents tend to be any different in whether they accept the news of their child being gay? (Or, how long it takes to accept it?) This is probably an area that hasn’t been studied much.
Comment by: Helen M.
15 08/4/06 7:12 AM | Comment Link |Yes, I definitely think there are parallels in children coming out as gay or coming out as atheist to very non-atheist parents.
As I recall I’ve seen discussions on IIDB as to which is harder and I’m sure some people said “atheist”. Whether that’s true or not, it does emphasize that coming out as an atheist can be quite hard.
Comment by: Eliza
16 08/4/06 7:50 AM | Comment Link |How about saying grace before meals? How is that handled in family get-togethers for people here, when there are a mix of beliefs in the group?
Comment by: Helen M.
17 08/4/06 8:16 AM | Comment Link |Ohhh…that reminds me of something that happened recently.
We never have said ‘grace’ even when I was ‘more traditionally Christian’, since my husband’s an atheist.
But if grace-saying people are guests I’ve often said “Do you say grace?” and invited them to say it if they want to. My change in beliefs hasn’t changed me being fine with with other people saying it if we’re eating with them.
Anyway we had some guests over a couple of months ago who I figured would say grace. We were about to start and the wife hesitantly said “Can we say grace?” I said “Sure - sorry, I forgot”.
What I meant was, “I forgot to ask, since we don’t usually say it ourselves” - but after I went out with our guests later to go to church with them (I wrote about that church experience here) the rest of my family was laughing about me pretending that we usually say grace and I just ‘forgot’ that evening.
Well, at least they laughed…
Comment by: Julie Marie
18 08/4/06 8:24 AM | Comment Link |I have never pushed “grace” in someone else’s home, although I think in respect of me and my husband, our family members have asked us if we’d say grace, from time to time. We try to keep it simple and short and focused mostly on being thankful for the opportunity to be together and enjoy each others company.
Its funny, years ago, my in laws, who are not religious, brought a form of grace to the table that made me uncomfortable as it involved kissing the hands of the person to the right and to the left of you. After the first brush with that, I carefully seated myself between husband and my son. I felt bad for the other folks at the table who were also uncomfortable with this — our German neighbor, for one, and my father, for another.
That experience has led me to perform the “silent prayer” practiced by a former quaker friend of mine. I had always appreciated the gentleness and the non intrusiveness of that practice.
Comment by: Doreen
19 08/4/06 10:40 AM | Comment Link |Julie Marie wrote
Oh my goodness! I’d have to get up and run from the table!
My immediate family said grace back when we kids were all 13 and under or when we went to visit my grandparents. We don’t say it anymore.
It doesn’t offend me if people want to say grace before a meal but when they want to hold hands and do so, that crosses a boundary. So the kissing part, eeekkkk!
Comment by: Julie Marie
20 08/4/06 11:02 AM | Comment Link |I’m so glad to hear you say that Doreen! I sort of felt like a grinch for having my “cringe” response. But it was what it was. I didn’t want to kiss or be kissed.
Comment by: Helen M.
21 08/4/06 11:16 AM | Comment Link |Julie Marie and Doreen, I’ve come across the holding hands grace and I don’t like it either. It crossed boundaries for me too.
I don’t mind the words but I’d rather not hold hands as well.
Helen
Comment by: Marty
22 08/4/06 2:02 PM | Comment Link |Interesting comments for me to reflect on - as my wife and I do the Quaker Silent Blessing before dinner most nights (during the summer usually in the back yard looking at the birds flying and the wonder of nature, holding hands and sort of centering and connecting.). When we have guests, we hold hands and before the silent blessing I take the opportunity to acknowledge each person that has joined us, thank them for being with us and then have the Silent Blessing. My sense has always been that holding hands added a positive dimension - but I guess I need to reassess that.
Comment by: Helen M.
23 08/4/06 2:57 PM | Comment Link |Marty wrote:
That sounds beautiful, Marty.
All I know is, I feel a little weird holding anyone’s hand who isn’t my husband or my child.
Comment by: Julie Marie
24 08/4/06 3:41 PM | Comment Link |I don’t mind the hand holding, actually I like that part…I just didn’t like the kissing part. but now that I see others see this as a boundary thing…I won’t presume.
Comment by: Marty
25 08/4/06 3:55 PM | Comment Link |For a number of years I was quite active in Unity Church. At the end of each service, everyone would form a large circle - hold hands and sing “Let There Be Peace on Earth - and Let It Begin With Me.”
When I was a teen, I remember going to a Baptist Camp and holding hands with the Afro American’s around me and singing “We Shall Ovecome.”
I had sung “We Shall Overcome” many times in other situations - but it took on a far deeper meaning to me holding the hands of Afro Americans.
In both cases holding hands added a special dimension for me.
Comment by: Kathleen
26 08/4/06 6:43 PM | Comment Link |“Its funny, years ago, my in laws, who are not religious, brought a form of grace to the table that made me uncomfortable as it involved kissing the hands of the person to the right and to the left of you. After the first brush with that, I carefully seated myself between husband and my son. I felt bad for the other folks at the table who were also uncomfortable with this..”
I’ve always felt fairly uncomfortable doing any sort of hand-holding thing. My church does nothing of the sort, but at a near-by church (they have the latest Mass in the area, so if I don’t make it to church in the morning, I usually end up at this other church at night), everyone - and I mean everyone - holds hands during the Our Father. They all move so they can hold hands across the aisles, and reach in front/behind if they’re on the end of a pew. There is NO way to escape it. I’m not a fan. It’s also pretty much the kind of place where they’d be incredulous/offended if you declined the hand-holding bit. I mean, why WOULDN’T someone want to hold hands with people they’ve never seen before?
And to top it off, as I said above, I’m only there in unusual, I-overslept situations, so it’s not like I’m ever anywhere near anyone I know. Holding hands with complete strangers is not something I normally do. I don’t particularly like to be touched.
Comment by: Helen M.
27 08/4/06 6:54 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for your comments, Kathleen.
It’s a shame they can’t just let you do what is comfortable for you, instead of forcing you to fit their ways of doing things.
Comment by: Rachel
28 08/4/06 6:57 PM | Comment Link |Growing up in the Baptist church, we do lots of standing in circles and holding hands to sing or pray. I’ve never been bothered by it at all but then I’m also a pretty touchy-feely person. I’ve always thought the symbolism of love and unity is very beautiful.
Comment by: Eliza
29 08/4/06 7:31 PM | Comment Link |My husband’s folks like to have everyone hold hands around the table during grace. Grace makes me a little uncomfortable, but the hand-holding doesn’t, except it starts to feel weird if the person saying grace goes on for a while. (Now, these are people I know - my acquired family. I would feel uncomfortable if it were a table full of people I had just met.)
Comment by: Rachel
30 08/5/06 11:30 AM | Comment Link |Eliza, I’m just curious…from your standpoint as an atheist, do you feel like it is disrepectful of you for people to expect you to participate in a prayer like that?
Comment by: Helen M.
31 08/5/06 2:25 PM | Comment Link |Rachel,
I find these sorts of things get into ‘guest philosophy’. I’ve heard people say “They’re guests in my house so I expect them to go along with the customs we observe in my house.”
Comment by: Eliza
32 08/5/06 3:38 PM | Comment Link |I don’t see it as disrespectful to me, but it is uncomfortable for me - it’s speaking thanks to God, who I don’t believe in. What am I supposed to do - agree and say “Amen”, or stare blankly ahead and try to ignore the entire process? I’d sort of rather sit it out - push back my chair a few inches and sit quietly, not part of the group saying grace - but that seems like being unnecessarily obvious. It’s just easier to go along & wince a bit.
I’m interested that grace seems to be something that my in-laws say only when there’s other family (besides just my husband & me & our son) present, or when there are other guests over, or on special occasions. I never see them pause in prayer before they eat solo, or when it’s just the 2 of them. That makes me wonder what the purpose of grace is, for them - maybe a way of acknowledging or celebrating the group gathering, rather than really giving thanks for the food? (Giving thanks for the food is usually part of what’s said.)
In contrast, I’ve noticed Jewish friends unobtrusively bowing their heads, moving their lips in a silent prayer, and washing their hands before eating - whether at our house, or in a restaurant, or even in the food court at a mall. I feel better able to understand “grace” given that way, as a consistent personal observance, rather than when it seems like it’s being offered up just for groups - & for everyone’s participation, whether they want to participate or not.
Comment by: Kathleen
33 08/5/06 7:36 PM | Comment Link |I thought I’d reserve comment on the original topic until after my family reunion today. There was no mention whatsoever of religion, that I caught, at all. I’m sure we don’t all believe the same things, but honestly, I’m not even sure what different members of my family believe, especially the extended family who was there today. I know one relative is somewhat must have some, at least nominal, connection to the Church, because he referred to me as a “Jesuit girl,” ’cause I go to a Jesuit school, but that says next to nothing about what he believes.
I have an aunt who left our church recently for another one (the hand-holding one I mentioned above), and it rarely comes up - it did once recently when she ran into a friend who had done the same, and she peppered the conversation with “it was right for us, even if it’s not right for everyone”s and “we’ve had such a great experience since we left, not to say anything against people who stayed”s for my benefit.
There’s slightly more tension on the other side:
My grandmother has said she’s uncomfortable in my aunt’s house (one of her daughters) because she has nothing religious there at all. I don’t think she’s said anything about it to that aunt, though. Last time we were there, she picked up a prayer card at church and surreptitiously slipped it under a vase or behind a picture or something. I think she worries for them because they don’t go to church, etc., though I don’t know to what extent she actually thinks a hidden prayer card will help. A few of my more athiest and/or abstract cousins have had loud discussions about what they believe, and it’s made some of my more religious relatives very uncomfortable. On the other hand, some of my more religious relatives make a point of sending religious Christmas cards, etc., which some of my less religious relatives are inclined to make fun of.
Comment by: Helen
34 08/13/06 3:07 AM | Comment Link |The August edition of our e-zine is now out!
It features comments by Rachel along with a link to this blog entry.
E-zine visitors, please feel free to join the discussion on “Family Ties” already underway.
Read the new e-zine and subscribe here:
Off The Map e-zine - August 2006