Posted by Eliza on: 09.07.2006 /
I’m thinking about signing up for an autumn “Adult Information Class” offered by a local Lutheran church, and was wondering what advice you all might give me.
Here’s where I’m coming from: I was raised without religion, don’t see evidence leading me to believe God exists, and am comfortable with my atheism. I used to avoid any conversation about religion, but over the last 6 months this site has really helped me understand how to have those conversations, and even seek them out. I’m still really interested in figuring out how people come to such divergent beliefs, even within one “belief system” like Christianity. Reading and blogging have been educational, but I like live interaction too. I think this year I could take more away from the classes, and could interact more openly yet more respectfully, than I could have last year (thanks to you all!).
So, this church recently sent out a mass-mailing brochure for their upcoming 15-week evening class series. They offered the same series last fall; I was tempted to sign up then but decided against it in part because I didn’t want my participation - including questions for the instructor - to detract from the experience of others attending. I have to also admit that I was scared that someone would try to convert me - a conversation I really did not want to enter.
(The course is free, with refreshments provided and with child care offered free at the church upon request. That suggests to me that the church feels it is important to have this course be accessible to people who otherwise might have practical and financial barriers to attending, but presumably also people who are more likely than I to become members.)
The outside of the brochure says: “Adult Information Class. A free 15 week course on basic Christian teachings provided by Messiah Lutheran Church as a service to our community.”
On first opening the brochure, this comes into view:
Do you ever wonder…
“Is there a God?”
“Why is Jesus Christ so important to me?”
“Does God care about me?”
“Why is the world so full of problems?”
“What is the purpose of life, my life?”
“Why are there so many kinds of Christian churches?”
This is your opportunity to find answers
Well, other than the second one, these are questions I wonder about, especially the first and last. I’d be interested in hearing what the instructor has to say, though also leery about anyone claiming to offer ready “answers” to most of these questions.
Further down, there’s a quote from the reverend who instructs the course (emphasis added by me):
The Adult Information Class is a safe, non-threatening environment to learn about the meaning and importance of Jesus Christ and the teachings of the Christian church. Questions are encouraged. Here is the opportunity to have your questions answered concerning spiritual/religious aspects of life. There is no obligation to join Messiah Lutheran Church. I promise you a beneficial learning experience.
Further inside, there’s more information on the weekly topics, the pastor-instructor, and this church. I won’t list all 15 topics here, but several are subtitled with questions. For example, week 2 is “God and Creation (The God of creation or evolution?)” and week 13 is “Prayer (What is it? Does God answer?).” Again, these questions are great, but I wonder whether the purpose is to give “the” answer from this church’s point of view, or to explore the topic from a Christian point of view.
Comment by: Paul
1Just my own rambling thoughts…
1) you have questions that you’d like to discuss and they are promising to cover those areas and want Qs - i’d say you were the ideal person to go
2) you of course won’t know what you think of the answers or the perspective given for the answer (their church versus a more generalised christian view) unless you go and ask and interact
3) go, you’ll be someone answer to prayer :)
4) I ran a course like this once and i so wanted people with Qs as everyone was pretty much signed up and wanted a refresher - i thought man this is so boring where are the fun people with questions i can’t answer but are gonna like them so much for asking them… that’s just me but you never know…
5) is it going to be a mutual learning experience - i hope so - the church could probably learn a lot from you, worth maybe asking up front?
:)
Comment by: Helen
2Paul, I love that you said this:
It’s so encouraging to hear that there’s a teacher out there who likes people who ask questions he/she can’t answer!
Comment by: Helen
3Hi Eliza,
I hope you’ll go because:
1) Like Paul, I think it can be a mutual learning experience. The church has probably never had someone like you at a course like this. And I think it will help keep what you think and say about Christians and their beliefs real because it will be based on first-hand experience. I’m sure you WILL learn things (although they may not be what the class organizers and teachers intend you to learn ;)).
2) I’d love to read your feedback on how it is for you, being there. Which will only happen if you go!
3) I doubt you’ll be taking someone else’s place. These sorts of classes usually don’t need to have a strict limit on attendance. But if you wonder about that, you can just ask the church if there’s a class limit and if you signing up makes the class full.
If they’re asking people to actually sign up in advance, rather than just show up, the reason is probably so they know a) how much childcare to provide b) how many refreshments to bring. And maybe also to increase commitment and ensure they have some contact info for the people coming, so they have the possibility of following up if they drop out/after the course is over.
4) I don’t think you need to be afraid of whatever conversations might arise there - you always handle dialog with Christians so graciously here!
I recommend: manage your expectations. Based on my experience, you are unlikely to find people in or teaching this class who will, or even can ‘go there’ with you, to see things from your point of view. I hope they are respectful and they listen to you anyway. And - if they are open and try to understand where you’re coming from - that’s wonderful. Manage your expectations - but I hope they’re exceeded!
Comment by: JG
4I really hope the course is helpful. I have led several groups of this nature and support Paul’s comments. With mind, it was a meal, followed by a talk followed by group discussion.
Two groups particularly come to mind. The first worked really well because the people in the group interacted well and responded to each other’s thoughts and questions. The second group was much harder because it felt as if I was carrying on separate conversations with each person in the group. It was really hard to get the people in the group to interact with each other.
I would hope this course you’ve mentioned would include group discussion - simply listening to talks may not be so helpful. I would also hope the intention is to explain the church’s position on each of the subjects and why they believe what they believe - whilst giving opportunity for discussions and questions. In my experience it is only when you get interesting questions that you begin to get to grips with some of the real issues involved. It is definitely a two way process.
If you go, hope it proves to be time well spent. Even if the first one or two sessions prove disappointing, I’d suggest continue going at least for 1 or 2 more sessions because I have found things can change - eg group discussions can take a while to deevlop whilst people get to know each other so the real value of the discussions only begins to materialise after a few sessions.
Comment by: Karen
5Eliza, do you still feel that you would be very uncomfortable if someone attempted to convert you, or asserted that s/he had all the answers? Because I think that may be what you’ll find in this class.
Churches don’t hold courses like these primarily to educate the community about their religious doctrine (though that may be a side benefit, that education can be found in a comparative religion course at an educational institution). The primary purpose is to “bring sinners to Christ” and add new members to their congregation.
I’m not saying there’s anything at all wrong with that. It’s the church’s right to do it, and it’s probably fairly effective or else they wouldn’t spend the time and money to offer the class.
But you will likely be presented with the gospel at some point and asked if you want to “make a decision” for Christ. Lutherans (think Garrison Keillor) don’t tend to be aggressive evangelists in my experience, but you might feel rather pressured about disappointing someone who’s very invested in saving you from hell.
If you’re okay with that possibility, I would say Go For It! :-)
I think both sides in the equation would learn a lot from your attendance and participation (and I do hope there’s a chance for participation, though you’d probably benefit from listening to their perspectives too). And, like Helen, I’d be interested in your feedback if you’d be willing to write about it here.
Comment by: Eliza
6Wow! I did not expect to be encouraged so strongly - especially from people like Paul and JG who have taught courses like this - it’s interesting to think my questions might make it less routine & dull for the instructor, I hadn’t thought of that possibility!
:)
I wouldn’t go with the expectation that the pastor or church would be learning alot from me, though you never know - and you have all mentioned that discussions like this are a 2-way process. Paul, how would you envision my asking “up front”? I’m not sure quite what you mean by that…thanks.
That’s a good point, to be sure to acknowledge the points of view of the other “students” & work toward an interactive group discussion. It’s probably pretty easy for the members of the class to simply look to the pastor-instructor for expert answers to questions. It probably also depends on his style, I’m sure - not ever having been to religious education (since a few sessions of Sunday school at age ~9) it’s a little hard for me to envision what the dynamics could be like.
That’ll be very important for me to do, ahead of time and during class time. I can imagine picking my questions carefully (mentally) before asking them. Questions have all sorts of purposes and flavors, don’t they? Some ask for clarification, some for basis of an interpretation just made, & some challenge the whole framework. I’d try to avoid the latter kind of question, unless the tone and topic pretty clearly allow for & encourage it. I’d be joining this Lutheran class on their open invitation to learn more, not to argue the basis for the entire premise. (Keep reminding self…! ;) )
I’d have to really think about whether and how to speak up if I have questions about Biblical interpretation. Those who know me (from the Discussion Board, especially) may recall that I can get hot and bothered at times about sections that seem to me internally inconsistent. I think that may be the hardest part for me to let pass…
Comment by: Eliza
7Karen - good question, and one I’ve thought about even before this mailing came out. I think I feel comfortable now with the possibility that a person, or several people, or a pastor might try to “bring me to Christ”, and with ways I could respond. I really have to credit my interactions with people here, and on the Discussion Board, over the last 6 months for that. I haven’t had the opportunity yet to try this out (this class may be my chance :) ), but I’d basically plan to (1) own my own beliefs, (2) politely decline to accept the premise of the attempt, (3) acknowledge and respect the evangelist’s beliefs and his/her concern for my soul.
And I will certainly write about my experiences here, if I do go!
Comment by: Mike O
8You should definitely go! I think it will be very interesting for them as well as you. As Paul said, you may be the one that keeps it from being boring. And if it helps, you’ll probably cause the ‘true seekers’ you worry about nudging aside to engage even more passionately, thus helping them with what they came to learn. I don’t see you being in the way at all.
1) Even if you were taking someone elses place (which you won’t be), they opened it up to people in the community. They likely would rather have you there.
2) You should expect to be somewhat noticed for your non-belief. It will seem odd to them to have an actual atheist in their church, and that will generate attention towards you. Turn the tables and put a Christian in an atheist group. The Christian would naturally tend to get attention. You should be OK with that because they probably don’t mean anything by it …you’ll be a bit of a curiosity.
3) Don’t be too quiet. Your perspectives are what they are looking for. While it is true that they will want you to come to Christ (I would!), they will be very interested in your reasons for not coming to Christ. That concept may blow their mind a bit. Declining their offer can be done respectfully. In fact, it would be a good experience for them.
4) Remember that you are going to learn their perspective. Hopefully they will be interested in yours, too, but in all honesty, the purpose has to be for them to give theirs. And that’s as it should be.
5) This will be hard, but don’t argue. Debating can be fun (I love it), but is seldom productive on the spot. They may not be ready to handle someone who doesn’t ‘come over to the light side,’ and their reaction may be to argue their point. You have the ability to manage that. Don’t fault them for it … they may not know how to act and may go into convert mode.
6) This one is a bit counterintuitive, and I hope you take this right coming from an Evangelical Christian … don’t shut them down before it even starts. That’s the rap Christians are getting (they don’t care about anyone elses beliefs), so don’t do it to them. It is possible that they are right, and to be intellectually honest about your reasons for going, you have to open yourself to the possibility that they may be right. I don’t say that in hopes that they’ll convert you. I’m just saying approach them the way you want them to approach you … listen to their ideas and if there’s merit to be given, give it.
7) You can always stop going if it doesn’t go well. I appreciate that you want to give them a fair shot at it, but if they screw it up, stop going. You don’t want to be disruptive, so if they can’t handle you being there, then maybe you should leave. But judging by their words, they’re looking for people like you, so I wouldn’t worry about it.
Comment by: Mike O
9Also, I wanted to add that I, too, am starting a similar community class next Wednesday. It’s for new christians, non-Christians and anyone who just wants to know more about the more difficult questions. Very similar to the ones listed in your Lutheran brochure.
For me, I WANT non-Christians there. Yes, I would love to see them eventually come to Christ … but just the life that they will add to the discussion will be unbelievable! I would LOVE to have you in my class! Can you be in Minneapolis next wednesday at 7???? [winky-face]
Please go … you’ll make their day. You would have made mine. If their motives are similar to mine, they want to connect with you. Even if they can’t convert you, they want to mix with you. I know I do.
Comment by: jim
10As long as you understand this going in (and maybe ask them to clarify their real goals up front and in public) - you will be fine
As Karen points out Lutherans are pretty much like Garrison Keillor so you should be cool
Comment by: Paul
11Hi Eliza
I was thinking that there might be some contact info where you have any Qs etc you can get in touch - you could talk about some of your concerns up front - I know if i was doing the course I’d be encouraged that people wanted to get in touch to find out more and if i can find out about the people coming in adance I can do a better class… Up to you of course, i just like finding things out :)
Comment by: Paul
12Helen, it’s one of the best ways for me to learn/think, most people just ask the same Qs with standard answers… much more fun to have questions where I don’t know… :)
Comment by: JG
13If Jim’s “judgment” of this church is correct then I would not encourage anyone to attend. I don’t know the church and don’t feel qualified to form a judgment - perhaps Jim knows the church better than me. I hope and suspect however that his judgment is wrong and that the church is not selfishly pursuing its own interests but has a genuine interest in interacting with people.
I know with the courses I’ve been involved in, if people did chose to pursue things further then great but that has not the primary purpose. I see great value in giving people opportunity to ask questions, understand what Christians actually believe and why they believe it rather than the “images” of Christians people are usually presented with. If Christians are to be effectively involved in the community it is important that others involved in the community have a better understanding of Christians - and vice versa.
Also, even if someone did want to pursue things further, if a different church was better placed to help that person, or was more on their wavelength, nearer to where they moved etc etc I would encourage them to get involved in that church rather than my own.
Comment by: Eliza
14Well, I did it - I signed up. The first class is not for 3 weeks.
I emailed the church office today to sign up, as their website said to do. I included this comment, after saying I was interested in the class series & giving my contact information:
An hour later the phone rang & it was Pastor Lassman. He said he thought it would be better to talk than email a reply, said I was welcome to take the class, no problem about any of the things I’d listed (atheist = fine, etc), but did basically say the class was a low-key form of evangelism, people who didn’t plan to join were welcome but they do give an opportunity for people to join the church at the end of the 15 weeks. Well, that’s not a surprise. He also cautioned me that it will be more “teaching” on Lutheranism than “discussion”, questions are welcome but he tries to keep them on the topic of the week, otherwise may defer them till after class. He says each week’s topic is based on Bibilical text, not a surprise but something I’ll have to watch my response to.
I’m thinking Brian McLaren’s A Generous Orthodoxy would be good to read before this class starts, to have a better idea of some of the differences between denominations, in an upbeat positive way.
Comment by: Eliza
15Mike O, thanks for your tips - this one in particular grabbed me.
It’s not clear to me that there’s any way to determine what is “right” when it comes to matters of faith. I read a whole bunch of apologist literature within the past year, and came to the conclusion that I don’t think there’s going to be any fact or argument or persuasive discussion that changes my beliefs, though I will certainly listen to what people have to say. (Giving my counter-viewpoint if the goal of the discussion is “lets convert Eliza” not just “here’s what I believe.”)
I think it would take a spiritual experience, actually an entire new “world” of spiritual sensation, to convert me - and even then my first response would be to question the situation & myself to look for the cause, rather than look outside of the natural world for an explanation.
I remain fascinated that people can come to such very different conclusions - beliefs - in the face of similar “data”. Sitting in a room of Christians and nearly-Christians, hearing a pastor speak about Christian beliefs, would give me some more experiences with how to listen to, talk to, and hopefully understand better, people who believe different things than I do.
Comment by: JG
16Eliza,
Really impressed with your approach to this, if only everyone who attends this sort of thing showed your wisdom and sensitivity.
Also pleased with way the Pastor has responded to you though disappointed it will be more teaching than discussion.
Comment by: Marty
17I think it is great that you are planning to go to a Christian Class. You are no doubt aware that there are Christian groups/pastors where you would be very welcome and add a great deal to the class and there are others who will only want to convert you and convince you of there dogma. We are fortunate on this board to have some of the former.
I would encourage you to go to the Pastor and have a totally open discussion - let him know that you want to come to learn, while at the same time, you don’t want to be uncomfortable and you don’t want to make others uncomfortable.
I have become involved with the Humanist Society here in Santa Barbara and have very much enjoyed their programs and have developed personal connections with a couple of their leaders. I think you know that I am very much wanting to create an Atheist/Christian dialogue here in Santa Barbara and am making some progress in that area. At this point I am not pushing it very hard - as both groups look at me a bit strange when I describe what I hope to do - but the seeds are planted and growing (slowly). This board has provided great dialogue, learning and respect. What I hope to do is to move beyond the virtual world and be able to do that in the real world. If we can do that - I think we will be contributing greatly to helping make the world a better place.
I don’t know if you tracked the discussion of FX-30 Days and a show they put on where a Atheist woman in went and lived 30 days with a fundamentalist Christian family, went to church with them, Bible study, etc. It may be a great primer for what you are planning to do.
I personally will look forward to your feedback - as you have proven yourself to be a respectful and smart person. You could well be the very best thing that could happen to that class.
Comment by: Helen
18Marty wrote:
Marty, did you see that Eliza did talk to the pastor by phone today, about the class? It’s in comment 14 of hers.
Comment by: Eliza
19Thanks for your comments, Marty and JG. I know that it’s easier to come across as sensitive and respectful when there’s a time delay between typing and posting, and I can edit what I say! We’ll see how it goes in “real life”. The phone conversation today with the pastor went fine, though I did get the sense that he’s used to having the last word. He did seem welcoming, and not phased by my self-description as an atheist interested in the class but not in becoming Christian. (Of course, he may be hoping that he can convert me.)
Marty, thanks for the reminder about the FX-30 days show - people have said on the DB that every episode of it has demonstrated people with major differences in situations where they have to find common ground. I’m no good with trying to figure out how to watch TV shows - we don’t watch TV, don’t have cable - but Karen had suggested on the DB that the season’s shows would be coming out on DVD before long. I’ll see if I can watch that episode before plunging into this class, also as background preparation!
Marty, it’s interesting to hear that the groups you’re working with in Santa Barbara are looking at you funny when you tell them of your vision - good for you for keeping the pot simmering even though it hasn’t come to the full boil you were hoping for, yet! I wonder how much of “talking across a divide” has to come because the discussants want to be reaching out & understanding each other, or (as in FX-30 days) in a situation where they really have to do so. Otherwise, it’s probably alot easier just to maintain the status quo!
Comment by: Eliza
20I forgot to mention - in the phone call, the pastor said something like “we won’t talk about politics, but some material will come up that’s not very P.C.” I can only guess at what he means - well, guess I’ll find out! Actually, I appreciate that - as long as it’s part of the package deal this church feels is important, it should be presented (not covered up or changed for the presentations to non-members).
Comment by: Mike O
21jg said: Also pleased with way the Pastor has responded to you though disappointed it will be more teaching than discussion.
My thoughts exactly, but at least he was up-front about it.
Pastor Lassman said: we won’t talk about politics, but some material will come up that’s not very P.C.
I think it is wise of him not to tweak his presentation to be more paletable to an atheist. Hopefully this means you will get an accurate picture of him as a real person saying teaching what they really believe, and not working it to make it sound more pleasing to a potential convert (in their eyes).
Comment by: Helen
22Eliza wrote:
I can only guess too, of course - but I do have some guesses. If he’s a conservative Lutheran he probably believes such things as “good people don’t go to heaven unless they believe in Jesus” and “sex between two people of the same gender is always a sin” and considers those beliefs not to be P.C. Conservative Christians do often say that their beliefs are not P.C.
On the other hand maybe he meant something completely different - I guess, as you said, you’ll find out!
Comment by: Eliza
23That’s interesting - I hadn’t heard people saying that before about their own beliefs. (I’ve only heard people saying it about other people’s beliefs. May be the P.C. circles I travel in!)
Why do you suppose CCs often say this? Is being non-PC something to relish? Just wondering…
Comment by: Helen
24Eliza wrote:
Yes, it’s something to relish. It means you’re not letting pressure to be P.C. (from the environment you’re in) push you into compromising on your beliefs or obedience to God.
Here’s one article about how Christian belief is not politically correct:
This is not politically correct by Roger Carswell
Comment by: Rachel
25I think that would be a great idea, Eliza. McLaren does a good job of summarizing the various streams of Christian tradition. And he is not dogmatic - I think you would enjoy his writing style.
Comment by: Karen
26Eliza wrote:
Girl, you absolutely crack me up… You could do circles around all of us with your math puzzles and science experiments, but when it comes to TV viewing - too complex!
:-)
The first season is out on DVD, and at the top of my Netflix queue. Here’s the link to order it if you want to buy:
http://www.foxstore.com/detail.html?title_id=1450&item=2338
Comment by: jim
27I agree about Brians book - Good readable and entertaining overview of the primary streams of Christianity today
Comment by: JG
28I haven’t been sure about posting this, not wanting to distract from this particular course, but if anyone else is interested in a course looking at Christian basics which does include group discussion you may like to look at the Alpha website.
http://www.alphausa.org/courses/search_os.asp
provides details of courses being held in USA.
I assume the book is available in Christian bookshops but can be ordered online (for anyone simply wanting to read about it rather than or before attending a course) at:
http://www.alpharesources.org/stores/1/The_Alpha_Course_Manual_P824C44.cfm
NB The course is generally regarded as evangelical and charismatic (though labels such as these can be misleading) so this will put some people off.
It all depends on the way the individual church runs the course. It will be very varied so if someone is interested find a church you feel comfortable with and attend their course. I think Eliza would feel comfortable with the ones I’ve experienced but I’m aware other churches approach the course in a very different way.
With the ones I’ve been involved with, typically we would have say 40 on a course, roughly a third of whom would be Christians. Meal, then a talk, then small group discussion. Say 6-8 in a group, one leader, say 1-2 other church members and 4-5 guests/enquirers. Some of those in my groups certainly regarded themselves as atheists with no intention of becoming Christian but interested in learning more, just like Eliza. I simply led one of the small groups each time.
Any Christian activity tends to attract criticism. Here is one article that is very negative about Alpha.
http://www.galha.org/briefing/alpha.html
I don’t agree with the article and its description bears no resemblance to the courses I’ve been involved with. But that is how some people feel about the course. Again I would say it all depends on the particular church AND the particular people within the church involved in the course AND on the mix on people attending the course. As mentioned in a previous post, even the courses I’ve been involved in have differed greatly because of the different group dynamics.
Having read this article, I have checked the Alpha course booklet and this makes no reference to homosexuality at all save for a reference at the end to “Alpha resources” which refers to “Searching Issues” and lists the “seven issues most often raised by participants of Alpha. I don’t believe the issue was even raised in any of the courses I’ve been involved with whereas reading the article, you get the impression almost the whole course is a rant against homosexuality.
Comment by: Helen
29Thanks, Jeremy. I’ve heard of Alpha but have no first-hand experience with it. Is this originally a UK course? Do you think it’s bigger in the UK than the US? Somehow I’ve got that impression but I might be wrong.
Thanks for being sensitive about not distracting from Eliza’s question. I appreciate you mentioning alpha courses. Who knows: maybe Eliza will have so much fun at the Lutheran course that she’ll be looking for another one to do and will try an alpha course next!
Comment by: Mike O
30Eliza said: Is being non-PC something to relish? Just wondering…
Absolutely! As a CC, if someone told me I was being PC, that would bother me. I don’t want to be PC.
Comment by: Helen
31Thanks Mike. Yes, if you want to annoy a CC, accuse him/her of being PC :)
Comment by: Helen
32I’ll add my recommendation for Generous Orthodoxy also. I enjoyed both the style in which it was written and the content.
I do want to point out that it’s not especially specific about Lutherans, as best I can recall. I think they are discussed along with other mainline protestant denominations. But that may well be helpful.
Comment by: Helen
33I’m glad JG posted about Alpha Courses in the context of courses offered for people who aren’t Christians/church attenders.
I’ve reposted those comments as a new blog entry so that people can discuss alpha courses without detracting from the discussion of Eliza’s issues concerning the specific class she’s signed up for.
Alpha Courses
Comment by: NCxian
34I’m reading A Generous Orthodoxy with a mostlyChristian group right now. It is generating a lot of interesting discussion. So I agree with those above who recommend it.
Comment by: Mike O
35What is it??? I’ve got such a list of books to read and I’ve never heard of this one until a couple days ago.
Comment by: Helen
36A Generous Orthodoxy by Brian McLaren
In the book he gives an overview of various Christian traditions and what he likes and what concerns him about each of them. He’s generous in the sense that he likes something about every tradition and his way of saying that is “Why I’m a Protestant…”, or whatever.
Comment by: Eliza
37Thanks for the link, Helen. I ordered it last night online (since my county’s library system doesn’t have a copy). Alert to anyone who might want to read it, several of the reader writeups on amazon.com suggest skipping the introduction (”chapter 0″), or at least not starting there.
To get some background on Lutheranism, I did some reading online last night…now I know why “Concordia” is such a common name for Lutheran schools & what it refers to, aha!
Karen, your comment in #26 must have taken the back road, I didn’t see it last night:
Wellllll, the thing seems to be plugged in, but I can’t find the switch to turn it on [/blush] :) :)
Comment by: Helen
38Actually I enjoyed chapter 0. I think you might too, Eliza.
Comment by: Helen
39Eliza wrote (in the Alpha course comments):
Eliza my comments are about the Lutheran course so I’m responding to something you wrote on the Alpha Courses blog entry over here.
You said “I’m more interested in learning what people believe & how they come to those beliefs”. I expect the Lutheran course will be way less ‘pushy’ in an evangelical sense than how the Alpha course was described in those newspaper articles I linked to. I expect it might well be evangelical in a much lower-key “It would be best for you if you’d believe this” way.
On the other hand, I’m afraid it won’t be nearly as in-depth as you might be hoping for, regarding what Lutherans believe and why. I suggest that you go to the pastor after class, if you find yourself repeatedly wanting more in-depth information, and ask him if there are any books you can read/borrow to go more in-depth. And you can also ask if you can discuss questions arising from those books with him at some point, one-on-one. (If you feel that would be worthwhile)
I’m not saying it would be inappropriate to ask questions in class. I’m just guessing that your questions will be different from other class members and your interest in learning details/historical context will go beyond most of theirs - so, beyond a certain point it’s probably best to get the further information you want by asking the pastor after class. I hope if you do this he will respect that you are not trying to take the class places he doesn’t want it to go and that the other class members are not interested in going.
Comment by: Eliza
40Thank you for the additional tips, Helen. I figure I can find sources to read if I want details and historical context - or, as you say, I can ask the pastor after class. But being in a room with people who are interested in Christianity, are almost-Christians, to hear a Christian pastor talk with them and hear what they ask and say - that’ll be quite an experience.
I may not have made clear the lengths I used to go to, to avoid being in a room of Christians, or to avoid being with people who were talking about religion! A course like this would be mundane for many of you, but is going to be a totally new experience for me, no matter what it’s like. I’ll probably start off in fly-on-the-wall mode, watching to see what the dynamics are like, before considering asking any questions. (Maybe I can pretend that I’m a journalist, just observing.) And there is a chance I’ll find it too difficult to be there & not probe in directions that really aren’t appropriate for that gathering, in which case I’ll stop going.
Comment by: Karen
41I think it certainly will. :-) It’ll be very interesting to hear your thoughts, because they will truly be from an “outsider” perspective that’s pretty rare to find. And, of course, because you’re interesting all by yourself.
Comment by: Helen
42Eliza wrote:
Yes indeed. I hope it’s an enjoyable one for you!
I’d be really surprised if you found it too difficult to be there, now you’ve had quite a bit of interaction with Christians online.
It’s usually pretty easy to be in a taught class - it requires little active participation. They might have each person introduce himself/herself at the beginning - and you’ll have the choice to say as little as you want - but then you’ll probably spend most of your time listening. Which is perfect if you’re thinking you want to be a fly on the wall!
Comment by: Helen
43Further thoughts…I think what will strike you about the class is how the other people in it are much more accepting of what is taught than you.
If the class is difficult for you, I think it will probably be because you get frustrated by seeing others accept what you find insufficiently supported by the evidence, or, outright wrong.
On the other hand, you might enjoy that this an opportunity to role-model asking authority figures appropriate questions, to people who seem to be overly accepting of what authority figures say.
And I don’t mean to stereotype class members in saying this; maybe there will be other skeptics there. However, I think there will be some very accepting people also, based on my experience of seeing how many questions Eliza asks and how few most other people I’ve encountered in Christian circles ask. Or - if they do ask them, then they tend to accept the authority figure’s response and not ask any follow-up ones. Which I can’t imagine Eliza doing! (Unless she’s saving her follow-up questions for later, out of politeness, because she doesn’t want to get the class way off track)
Comment by: Eliza
44Helen said:
Ah, Helen, how did you discover my secret? I look mild-mannered, but have a low threshold for questioning authority. And here I thought I was hiding it so well. ;)
No, I wouldn’t want to sidetrack everyone down the garden paths I might be interested in following, and will try to be sensitive to that. Also, often times there just doesn’t seem to be any point to pressing further with questions. And, sometimes it seems just like a bad idea (politically) to irk the big cheese. While that’s an important one to keep in mind in certain situations (like at work), I don’t see that happening in this class, since I’m not a member of the church.
I was raised without religion, but my father had been raised Quaker, including years at a Quaker boarding school. Maybe he was raised to “speak truth to power”, then raised me with a reduced inclination to defer to authority. I’ll ask him next time we chat.
Comment by: Mike O
45I think as long as you don’t try to correct him in front of the class, it will go fine. From the sounds of it, your intent is to understand where he’s coming from, not to make sure he’s right or wrong. I think as long as you keep your questions passive (seeking to understand rather than correct him), and perhaps set up separate times with him if you wish to push harder, he’ll be more open to your input.
Think of it as you being the door knocker and you’ve gone to his house. How receptive will they be to conflict during their class?
Comment by: Julie Marie
46I like the way you put this Eliza. As one who has only recently (maybe last 3-4 years) started questioning authority I am wistful over the years of deference. Good for your Dad, and good for you! You have a very diplomatic way of questioning, imo…I am trying to learn that. Right now I’m more of a sledgehammer…I shifted erratically from from one end of the spectrum to the other, and I’ve imparted a few bruises along the way. Not exactly Christlike…*sigh* I’m working on being elegant about it now.
Comment by: Helen
47Mike O wrote:
Mike, I think this is a helpful distinction and I agree that teachers generally like those who want to understand, whereas few will put up with someone who wants to ‘correct’ them, especially if the person trying to correct them won’t back down.
It’s rather one-sided really because - even if he’s not pushy about it - the class teacher will presumably be hoping to ‘correct’ Eliza’s ‘misconceptions’ which are causing her to be an atheist and will hope she’s open to such correction. But he probably won’t be interested in having an atheist ‘correct’ the ‘misconceptions’ which are causing him to believe in God.
Comment by: Rorgg
48I think it would be interesting to go for the first classes, where you start with the fundamental questions, like you said:
“Is there a God?”
There could very well be an interesting discussion on the topic. The problem is that the rest of their curriculum will be based on the assumption that you agree that there IS a god (implicitly that it’s the god of Abraham) and then at some point, agree that Jesus was divine.
What happens if you don’t? There probably won’t be much for you. You can either go to just learn what their doctrine is, which is an interesting topic in itself, but maybe not what you were shooting for. And at this point, your questions and discussion become redundant, since they eventually roll back to that first question.
I might go with that in mind, and figure that all I’d be good for would be one or two sessions.
Comment by: Eliza
49The first session is “Christ and The Bible: The importance of Jesus Christ and the Bible as God’s Word and what is means to me” - starting off with a bang, with a bunch of assumptions I don’t share! (The second week is “God and Creation: The God of creation or evolution?”)
But I’ve realized from thinking about what people have said in this discussion that I’m not going to learn doctrine - I can read that information. I’m going in order to purposefully put myself in an uncomfortable position - in a room of Christians discussing their religion, while I (pleasantly) acknowledge being an atheist & deal with whatever that brings out. (And, as the first class draws closer, the discomfort factor is looming larger for me!)
I hope to practice listening to discussion I don’t agree with, perhaps presenting my own questions & thoughts as/if it seems appropriate to the discussion, & if need be fending off attempts to turn me into a Christian.
I’ve started reading Brian McLaren’s A Generous Orthodoxy (very much enjoying chapter 0, thank you Helen :) ) & find the first several chapters quite interesting, including his chapter “The Seven Jesuses I Have Known” complete with chart of the ways different branches of Christianity view Jesus - what is/was most important about his life and death, & what it means. Helps me understand better some of the differences in core beliefs among Cs. Also, I’ve recently watched some of the FX 30 days episodes, including the one in which an atheist woman lives for 30 days with a Christian family, and the one in which a pro-choice woman lives for 30 days in a Christian home for unwed mothers (complete with the pastor and wife who run the home & used to be members of Operation Rescue). Very interesting & thought-provoking - and in each case good modeling of interpersonal connection despite differences, & discussion of beliefs without rancor & without agenda to convince the “other side” to change their beliefs. I’m going to watch them again before this class starts.
Well…they did promise free parking and refreshments! ;)