Posted by Helen on: 09.08.2006 /
In comment #28 on “An atheist in a religious education class?” JG wrote:
if anyone else is interested in a course looking at Christian basics which does include group discussion you may like to look at the Alpha website, which provides details of courses being held in USA.
I assume the book is available in Christian bookshops but can be ordered online (for anyone simply wanting to read about it rather than or before attending a course) at:
NB The course is generally regarded as evangelical and charismatic (though labels such as these can be misleading) so this will put some people off.
It all depends on the way the individual church runs the course. It will be very varied so if someone is interested find a church you feel comfortable with and attend their course. I think Eliza would feel comfortable with the ones I’ve experienced but I’m aware other churches approach the course in a very different way.
With the ones I’ve been involved with, typically we would have say 40 on a course, roughly a third of whom would be Christians. Meal, then a talk, then small group discussion. Say 6-8 in a group, one leader, say 1-2 other church members and 4-5 guests/enquirers. Some of those in my groups certainly regarded themselves as atheists with no intention of becoming Christian but interested in learning more, just like Eliza. I simply led one of the small groups each time.
Any Christian activity tends to attract criticism. Here is one article that is very negative about Alpha.
A critique of the Alpha course’s attitude towards homosexuality
I don’t agree with the article and its description bears no resemblance to the courses I’ve been involved with. But that is how some people feel about the course. Again I would say it all depends on the particular church AND the particular people within the church involved in the course AND on the mix on people attending the course. As mentioned in a previous post, even the courses I’ve been involved in have differed greatly because of the different group dynamics.
Having read this article, I have checked the Alpha course booklet and this makes no reference to homosexuality at all save for a reference at the end to “Alpha resources” which refers to “Searching Issues” and lists the “seven issues most often raised by participants of Alpha. I don’t believe the issue was even raised in any of the courses I’ve been involved with whereas reading the article, you get the impression almost the whole course is a rant against homosexuality.
Comment by: Helen
1 09/8/06 3:28 AM | Comment Link |FYI: the Wikipedia entry on Alpha Courses
Comment by: JG
2 09/8/06 3:37 AM | Comment Link |Helen, thanks for this.
On the previous thread you asked:
I think your Wikipedia link answers this but yes, very much a UK course that has been exported to the US. I suspect most people have heard of it here in the UK. I think the USA site says 1.5 million people have attended courses in the US which sounds alot to me but perhaps not in US terms.
Comment by: Helen
3 09/8/06 3:39 AM | Comment Link |In particular I found this first-hand account of taking an alpha course (linked to at the bottom of the Wikipedia entry) interesting:
Catch me if you can - part 1
Catch me if you can - part 2
Comment by: Helen
4 09/8/06 3:40 AM | Comment Link |Thanks for answering my question, JG.
Comment by: Mike O
5 09/8/06 12:19 PM | Comment Link |We were going to offer Alpha this fall, but couldn’t quite pull it off because our church isn’t quite big enough. You need lots of volunteers (cooking, coordinating, leading, small group facilitators, etc.) My wife is the small groups pastor and this would have fallen under her leadership, and we decided that with the 13 other groups we’re having (attendance runs around 175 on a Sunday), we just didn’t have the manpower for it.
Me and another pastor went to the intro training for it and it looks excellent. They highly recommended that we use the DVDs right from the UK (I can’t remember the speaker’s name) and that we follow their ‘recipe.’ I agree that that would be the right approach, even for a small church, because it gives it a better feeling of being a global effort rather than just another attempt by a church to draw people in (which isn’t a bad thing, just less effective).
Instead, we’re doing one called Starting Point that was put together by Northpoint Community Church in Alpharetta, Geortia. This is a very large church pastored by Andy Stanley (Son of Charles Stanley). I just got done listening to all the audios for the course and they’re quite good. But I’m a big Andy Stanley fan anyway.
But back to alpha … My parents are Lutheran and they had alpha. I’m Assembly of God (more pentecostal) and we would have done Alpha. My understanding is that it is an excellent course that is fitting for any Christian denomination. Didn’t get far enough into it to know anything about the Charismaticness of it, but my understanding was that that was only one part (although a main part) of the course.
Comment by: Karen
6 09/8/06 7:52 PM | Comment Link |Yikes. That sounds like a very uncomfortable experience, and one that would really freak Eliza out. As I understand it, the Toronto Blessing connection doesn’t necessarily follow the Alpha course outside of the UK.
I had (mercifully) few experiences as a Christian with feeling pressured to speak in tongues or manifest other “gifts of the spirit.” When it did happen, I always felt inadequate and kind of panicky (”should I just stand here like a lump, or make something up , or ??). I always wound up just riding out the service on the sidelines.
Charismatic churches or groups never had any appeal for me because of those unhappy feelings they evoked.
Comment by: David H
7 09/8/06 9:33 PM | Comment Link |I read through the article about Alpha and it left me with mixed feelings. Is the phenomena real? I can’t say, but I have seen things like it. However, my uncertainy has more to do with not knowing the people involved. Salesmen and flim-flam artists (as well as many leaders of mass movements) have used some of these techniques to manipulate people, but I have also seen therpists and counselors employ similar “tools” to help people reach a place where they could gain a new perspective on life and its problems.
First a little history to provide a basis for m mistrust. My father was ordained a Southern Baptist minister and I spent some time in charismatic churches and at revivals while young. I have seen pastors and leaders at such events “convert” people to things I am pretty sure had little to do with real Christianity. I personally attended a 3-day revival and saw many of the same people answer the altar call each night. But what surprised me, was I was one of those people. Odder, I was highly resistant to what was happening, but what the pastor said and how he said it brought me such a feeling loss and such a desire for the promised eternal love that I ended up weeping each night. When the altar call came I could not resist. I was swept up in an emotional tide of wanting to be part of something, of wanting to show God what I really felt. As a result I found myself stumbling to the front for laying on of hands, prayers of salvation, etc. The downside: there was no follow-up and the feeling didn’t last long in the real world.
Also, through my church background and work as a journalist I have met many charming individuals from the church and politics. However, not all were good. My father, as the most extreme example, is considered a fantastic person, pillar of the community, and wonderful spiritual leader by almost everyone who knows him. I know he is a child molester, but I didn’t get very far in trying to convince anyone else of that for quite some time. Fortunately, he got caught.
All of this is just to say that the Alpha experience triggers a gut reaction in me that is not completely positive. If Nicky Gumbel is a truly good man — and by that I mean he isn’t doing things that are bad while thinking he is doing good — then perhaps Alpha is something that can truly help people learn about faith and God. But the emphasis on “gifts of the spirit” evidenced as a group experience by people who have been prepped for conversion seems odd at the very least. Also, the meditation technique mentioned by the UK journalist is very suggestive of a type of low-grade group hypnosis.
Obviously, I’m not really comfortable with most of the demonstrative gifts of the spirit. I have seen them trotted out like circus acts for no good purpose. I have seen church leaders employ them as a way of gaining greater control over their flock. I understand the fruits of the spirit concept, but find myself drawn toward the more mundane things — like how one attempts to live a Godly life every day. Someone who cares for the sick or feeds the poor or embraces the untouchable seems much more spiritually practical then someone who speaks in the tongue of angels. The latter is easy and emotional but does little to directly guide participants toward being Christ’s heart and hands in the world.
Maybe Alpha is a good thing. I’m not sure I could tell even if I was inside (perhaps especially from the inside). But to me the proof is not in the numbers of conversions or the number of butts in the pews or the number of dollars (pounds) in the collection plate. The proof is in the lives of the converted. Are they living lives of service, are they living lives of forgiveness, are they living lives of love (for God and people, especially unlovable people). In short, are their lives bearing fruit.
Comment by: Eliza
8 09/8/06 9:50 PM | Comment Link |I wouldn’t have signed up for an Alpha course - as far as I can tell, its purpose is overtly evangelical - to explain why the attendee(s) should want to follow Jesus. I’m not interested in hearing people try to convince me of that. I’m more interested in learning what people believe & how they come to those beliefs, having no background in any religion & still finding it all kind of foreign - that’s it, it’s like learning a foreign language! And it’s time to go out and try speaking it with the natives. :)
I would probably have agreed with the attendees who saw the weekend retreat/speaking in tongues thing as cult-like & an attempt at hypnosis. Sounds like the healing event could well have been the kind of tricks psychics use - “cold reading” the attendees (or even warm readings, since he’d gotten to know them over the preceding weeks), guessing common problems, leaving predictions vague and letting the attendees fill in the blanks & only remember the comments that seemed amazingly accurate. I am not meaning to offend anyone here, but that would be my skeptical impression of the event.
But I probably wouldn’t have made it as far as the weekend retreat. This comment by Nicky Gumbel from the first session, as reported in the first “Catch me if you can” link, would have had me raising my hand, or at least biting my tongue pretty hard:
Well, maybe it’s just me, but appeals to historical accuracy are not the right approach to try to convince this skeptic. There are too many pitfalls, starting with the variations between the synoptic gospels. And, yes, I’ve read what the apologists have to say, and it is completely unconvincing to me. (OK, I’m a hard nut to crack, but there you have it!)
So, about what Nicky Gumbel is quoted as saying above: First, textual criticism attempts to identify the earliest version of a document, or recreate as closely as possible what it must have looked like. “Textual criticism” sounds fancy, but as applied to the New Testament it means determining which of the pretty-close-but-not-identical very old texts of the NT is earliest & most authentic - the Alexandrian, Western, or Byzantine text-types. It’s not clear to me how identifying the earliest version of the NT texts tells us that “the New Testament was written when they say it was” (whatever dating he’s referring to), nor how that’s necessary to supply authenticity. As far as I’ve been able to tell from my reading, the details in the synoptic gospels are the same in all of those versions. The differences are noticeable to scholars, but don’t change the bottom line.
Second, it’s ironic but applying “textual criticism” to Josephus’ “Testimonium” in his work Antiquities of the Jews, from 93 A.D., leads to the conclusion that his comments on Jesus were most likely altered considerably by the time the “quote” from Josephus was first reported by Eusebius in ~324 A.D. (after having not been mentioned by the Christian author Origen in ~240 A.D. - Origen did comment that Josephus did not believe in Jesus as the Christ, whereas the Testimonium Flavium does state that belief). I’ve read about Joesphus’ references to Jesus in several skeptic and apologist books; the Wikipedia entry on Josephus’ writings on Jesus discusses it in detail too. There’s too much there to quote here, so I’ll just give one of their “bottom lines”: “For centuries Christian writers took the position that Josephus wrote the Testimonium more or less in its current form. Today almost no secular scholar holds that position: however, many writers claim that Josephus did write something about Jesus which has been corrupted in the surviving Greek text.”
It’s been mentioned before here - it comes down to faith & belief. IMO, the existence &/or divinity of Jesus can’t be argued convincingly from the “data” through to a logical, inevitable conclusion. There’s gotta be that leap of faith. It sounds like the Alpha class has provided that for a number of agnostics, or perhaps people questioning their faith, & that’s great, for those folks & their churches. But for me, personally - count me out on this one!
Comment by: JG
9 09/9/06 6:44 AM | Comment Link |Eliza,
Thanks for your comments which I fully understand. I can only really speak for my own experience as I have not attended an Alpha course at Holy Trinity Brompton led by Nicky Gumbel but I have to say that the ‘Catch me if you can’ bear no relation to the courses I’ve been involved with.
The reason why I mentioned Alpha courses is because they do provide the group discussion and interaction which I feel is important.
Obviously many hours could be spent in discussion over each aspect of Christianity such as the textual criticism points you mention. I think the point of the course is to provide a brief introduction and overview - and most important, to allow discussion. I can’t recall exact times but certainly the group discussion lasted longer than the talk.
It is important to understand the evidence for the Christian faith but fully agree with you it can’t be proved, it does come down to faith. But better to have informed faith which understands the arguments for and against faith than simple blind faith that is oblivious to the issues.
I would again say that the way the course is run will vary from church to church and within the small groups from one group to another depending on whose leading it and who is in the group.
Attending a course involves a considerable element of trust on the part of the attendee and it generally works best if you already know someone who attends the church who you can go with. I know I would very it very hard to attend a course if I knew no one there and nothing about the church.
In your case, I would definitely encourage you to stick with the Lutheran course - indeed for that reason I was reluctant to even mention Alpha.
But if anyone else is interested in such a course, I would certainly recommend Alpha - subject to first finding a church running such a course you feel comfortable with.
Comment by: Helen
10 09/9/06 7:18 AM | Comment Link |JG, I hope it wasn’t unfair of me to post highlight those links. Thanks for pointing out that not all Alpha Courses are like the one the newspaper writer attended.
I’m glad you wrote this. I hadn’t thought of it this way before, but now you pointed it out, I definitely agree.
Comment by: Helen
11 09/9/06 7:22 AM | Comment Link |David H wrote:
David, I know of church communities where demonstrative gifts of the Spirit are part of a whole picture in which people are actively involved being Christ’s heart and hands in the world, according to their best understanding of what that entails.
Like you went on to say in the quote below, it’s the ‘fruit’ that matters. To me, in these cases, it seems to be good.
Indeed. Thanks for your comments!
Comment by: JG
12 09/9/06 7:40 AM | Comment Link |Helen, not at all. The link I posted myself was to a much more negative article. I would far rather someone be aware of the issues, criticisms etc beforehand and then go and make their own mind up.
The article is only one person’s perspective coloured by their own beliefs, prejudices etc - and particularly by the fact they are a journalist, it tends not be “cool” or “politically correct” to be seen writing an article praising a Christian activity. It makes interesting reading but I would treat its content with a slight pinch of salt.
Yes, Holy Trinity Brompton is a charismatic church and some things that happen there probably would, for that reason, make some people feel uncomfortable. But many other people have been very positive about the way that particular church runs the church. Their website can be found at:
http://www.htb.org.uk/
Comment by: JG
13 09/9/06 7:48 AM | Comment Link |David H,
I support your comments particularly your reference to loving the unlovable.
It is hard to judge from a church website, but having not ever viewed it before, I quite like the look of Holy Trinity Brompton from its website.
http://www.htb.org.uk/st/volunteering.htm
gives details of some of the projects they are involved with.
Comment by: Marty
14 09/9/06 10:52 AM | Comment Link |Thanks JG for posting the link to the volunteer work of Holy Trinity Brompton. I am immensly impressed at these manifestations of the people of this church’s beliefs. My guess is that far more non-believers would be open to the Christian message if they first were drawn into these types of programs then they will ever be by sitting down and first being inondated with sermons and scripture.
I have learned in the last months that Atheists are every bit as moral, giving to friends and want to help make the world a better place as anyone else. What has recently ocurred to me - is that Atheists do not seem to have the groups and organization structure to do the type of things that Holy Trinity Brompton is doing. The closest may be Unitarian Universalist Churches, many of which seem to include and/or be led by Atheists who are very involved in service. Maybe volunteering in Non-Profits is or can be the vehicle for Atheists be involved in groups that collectively can do things that can not as easily be done individually. I enjoy the Humanist Society here in Santa Barbara and some of their excellent speakers - while at the same time I don’t sense that they are drawn to community service.
That being said, the most fullfilling volunteer experiences I have had is Hospice volunteering - coming along side those who are dying. Although I did that for many years as a volunteer for our local Hospice (and also served on the Board - a less fullfilling, yet important, experience) I have not been a part of that organization in the past few years and yet still find it most fulfilling to do this same type of work on my own. Maybe the latter is the Athiest experience.
I would be interested in knowing from the Atheists if they are involved in groups that do service and if so which type of groups.
Some time ago, much of the discussion on this board/blog was around what each of us can do to help make the world a better place. It was during those discussions that I felt that some very special things were happening - the best was being brought out from each of us - and we let come of some of our prejudices relative to each other.
If it is true that Christian Churches provide organizaton and structure for doing things to serve others - I wonder what it would be like if they consciously reached out to those who do not attend their church and/or do not believe as they do and provided ways that everyone could work together to help make the world a better place.
Comment by: Marty
15 09/9/06 11:00 AM | Comment Link |David H wrote:
Amen Brother, Amen :-)
For me what is important is the manifestation of the beliefs or non-beliefs that people have. Having piety, religion, absolute assurance, dogma and not the manifestations that David H describes - from my standpoint is both hypocritical and does little/nothing to help make the world a better place. I remain far more interested in the Heaven/Hell in the here and now than I am in the Heaven/Hell in the hereafter - which will be a mystery until we get there.
Comment by: Karen
16 09/9/06 1:58 PM | Comment Link |David wrote:
Very interesting, David. I’m part of an ex-fundamentalist support group and some of the agnostics and atheists in the group have recently been discussing this very topic: Spiritual experiences that were oh-so-real to us as believers and where we think they came from now that we’re not convinced of the supernatural.
I think your description of what you felt would be familiar to all of us in that group. We’ve been speculating about the powerful emotional response that often occurs in an evangelistic service, where the mood, music, lighting, group dynamics and evocative language are chosen carefully and do have an enormous impact.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Comment by: Eliza
17 09/9/06 1:58 PM | Comment Link |JG, thank you for mentioning the Alpha courses. I didn’t mention earlier, I had actually looked into them some months ago when someone posted about them on the off-the-map/ebayatheist site. At the time, I couldn’t find any nearby church that was offering them, and also it didn’t seem quite like my cup of tea. ;)
Yes, especially when people have questions. It’s interesting what perspectives & ideas can come up in conversation. I feel like I’ve had an excellent opportunity to probe my questions here, but it is totally different face-to-face, and as you said it can be more threatening if you don’t already know the people or place.
JG, could you explain more about why you say informed faith is better than blind faith?
Also, when kids are raised Christian, aren’t they taking it on blind faith for at least their first decade? Is there specific religious education aimed at introducing the arguments for and against Christian faith to these kids, or for new converts, at some point?
Comment by: Helen
18 09/9/06 2:08 PM | Comment Link |Karen wrote:
I’ve thought about that a lot too, although I don’t think I’ve discussed it much with other people.
Yes, I agree that they do have an enormous impact.
What I’ve thought about is: even if people are being emotionally manipulated, I don’t think the results are always bad or harmful.
I think when someone involved in these sorts of groups says “My life is wonderfully changed for the better!” that’s not necessarily untrue.
If I take an atheist at their word when they say “I’m happy without any belief in any gods” then to me it’s only fair if I take a Christian at their word when they say “My life is better with Christ” even if I have doubts about whether what they describe is supernatural in the way they believe it is.
Comment by: Karen
19 09/9/06 3:11 PM | Comment Link |Yes, I agree.
It’s just interesting to know “what to do” with those kinds of experiences after one stops believing they were definitely connected to the supernatural realm. And, as one of our most thoughtful group members pointed out, saying they were probably not supernaturally motivated does not mean we must deny the reality of those powerful experiences in our lives, because certainly the feelings we had and their impact were very real.
Comment by: Helen
20 09/9/06 3:28 PM | Comment Link |Karen wrote:
Yes - that’s what I was getting at. Not only were they real but they weren’t necessarily bad.
These days I don’t want emotional manipulation to be part of my life and if I were in one of those situations I’d resist it. But I don’t want to resist it by mischaracterizing it as having a worse effect on me than it really did.
Comment by: JG
21 09/9/06 4:13 PM | Comment Link |This is worthy of a more considered response than I can manage immediately so this is just in brief (before I go to bed) .
On your second point, I have considered this particularly, having two children of my own. I would far rather they find faith for themselves so their faith (if any) has secure foundations.
On your first point, each person is different. From my viewpoint, Christianity is so simple it can be grasped in a very real way by the simplest of people (it is faith not intellect) - someone I know is very simple and yet has a faith which in some ways puts many to shame, the Bible does talk of coming to God like little children. On the other hand, it is so profound that even the greatest mind cannot fully understand it, who can know the mind of God?
The point I’m trying to make is that whatever intellect (I believe) God has given us, he wants us to use. We don’t need it to find him but we can’t abandon our intellect either. If we are to worship him with all our heart, all our soul and all our mind (Matthew 22:34-40), it won’t work if our intellect tells us God doesn’t exist or if we have unresolved questions. And if we have never considered the difficult questions, how will we respond if or when we are suddenly confronted with them or when we face difficult circumstances?
Blind faith can mean different things. What I meant was the sort that discourages use of the mind or which runs away from the difficult issues. That sort of faith produces insecure leaders who cannot cope with people asking questions. Such leaders do enormous harm in my view.
If someone is seeking God, I would far rather it take them say 10 years and find it for real rather than be pushed into “becoming a Christian” with shaky foundations.
I’m not sure to what extent there are courses specifically looking at the arguments for and against faith but what I would hope is that anyone running any sort of course for enquirers such as Alpha, or who is in dialogue with anyone about Christianity would have sufficient security in their own faith to be able to encourage such an approach in the course or dialogue they are involved in. It should be a natural characteristic of any Christian activity.
Sadly, as stated previously, much of what passes as church, is in my view, a pale imitation of the real thing. I include myself in this because I am all too aware of my own failings and mistakes.
Comment by: David H
22 09/9/06 5:56 PM | Comment Link |As a journalist and a Christian I read the “Catch me if you can” article as one man’s sincere attempt to make some sense out of something he couldn’t understand. He felt as if God spoke to him, but some other elements of the experience made him doubt even that.
As I said before, I have been close to more than one cult of personality. Sometimes the people were purposefully manipulative and others times they were people who were just so personally powerful that they couldn’t help but be a magnet for others. But having been close to something like that like that I have empathy with that author’s skepticism. The power of a person like Nicky Gumbel can be used for good or evil.
On the other hand, I have seen small miracles. I have experienced them myself. Therapists I have spoken to insist my life is such a miracle in that it is very difficult to rationalize how I made it psychologically to where I am today. I do believe God can reach down into the world and do amazing things.
However, I’m still not sure what purpose is served by speaking in toungues as part of an organized activity such as the Alpha seminars. The references I read in the Bible about that gift have it manifested by believers (sometimes to teach others and sometimes to edify the faithful). But it wasn’t clear to me that those who spoke at the Alpha session I read about were believers before they that miracle.
It is almost as if the speaking in tongues was to prove to attendees that there is a God. The thing happens to people, some of whom can’t even explain it, therefore it must have been a supernatural event. I am always wary of such things, if for no other reason than I have seen them used as parlor tricks for nefarious purposes.
For me, discovering faith, finding God, was a gradual process. It took years of patient support from people around me. There was no bolt from the blue, just an understanding on my part that if God really cared then eventually we would find each other. As part of that process I discovered people of whom I could ask questions, in fact I found a church where such uncertainty was embraced (a miracle in and of itself, especially since my visit there was almost an accident). And I came to know that there is a huge element of personal responsibility when it comes to true faith. I must own what I believe at some point, I can’t simply point to others and say: “I’m with them.”
Perhaps my experience doesn’t extend past myself. We all start at different places, so it seems almost necessary that our paths wouldn’t be the same even if we are trying to reach the same place. So, maybe the Alpha experience is just what some people need. But not me.
Comment by: Helen
23 09/10/06 3:15 AM | Comment Link |David H wrote:
David, you might be interested in this discussion on our Church Rater blog:
Have you had to PROVE IT?
It’s about the validity of gradual experiences of coming into personal faith, compared with those experiences people have where they can name a date and time they came forward, or ‘prayed the prayer’, or whatever.
Comment by: Helen
24 09/10/06 3:23 AM | Comment Link |JG wrote:
Hmm….JG, did you just express a prejudice against journalists, here? ;-)
The journalist came across to me as pretty fair. My experience with the Guardian is that they like to print criticisms about Christian books and activities - that makes me think he could have been much more negative and they would have gone ahead with his articles. But actually the journalist seemed so impressed with Nicky Gumbel that I went to the HBT site yesterday (thanks for the links) and downloaded one of his sermons and listened to it out of curiosity.
It does sound like alpha courses vary quite a bit from church to church. I can accept that as a reason not to write them all off based on one account of one alpha course. I’m less comfortable with the idea I should take it with a pinch of salt simply because it was written by a journalist.
Comment by: David H
25 09/10/06 5:20 AM | Comment Link |Read much of the stuff about gradual experiences at the ChurchRater blog on Friday. Found quite a bit which resonated with my background. A very interesting site with much valuable discussion.
Comment by: Helen
26 09/10/06 5:23 AM | Comment Link |Hi David - I’m glad you found Church Rater already.
In view of your desire to see ‘fruit’ you’d probably like the OA blog also. But maybe you’ve already been there too!
Comment by: David H
27 09/10/06 10:18 AM | Comment Link |Jus a short visit to the OA blog. All of this is a recent discovery, so I haven’t been able to dive in too deeply. But I appreciate the effort and intent. Lots of good things to talk about.
Comment by: Helen
28 09/10/06 10:55 AM | Comment Link |We’re glad to have you here, David. Feel free to jump in wherever you like, as time permits.
Comment by: JG
29 09/11/06 3:50 AM | Comment Link |Helen, I fully appreciate what you mean. And I agree with you that the article is fairly positive about the course. I can’t comment on how accurate it is about the Holy Trinity Brompton course because I have never attended one.
But the headline (query from his editor) says:
In the Alpha handbook, which actually has 15 sessions, not 10, only 1 includes any reference to speaking in tongues. In the brief section on tongues it includes the following:
3 b) Not all Christians speak in tongues
Not necessarily a sign of being filled with the Spirit
There are no first or second class Christians
It is not the most important gift.
The handbook runs to 64 pages, 3-5 per session. Only one and a half pages relates to tongues: section 3, sub sections a-e and I have quoted b in full. Or, put it another way, 39 lines of which I have quoted 8 in full. The layout is in note form with space for notes on the right hand side.
My point is that reading the article gives the impression that tongues is a dominant feature of the course. The headline reinforces this. But journalism inevitably involves focusing on the headline. This isn’t a criticism, just a fact of life. We wouldn’t want journalism to be any other way.
I should add that to the best of my recollection, there has been no speaking in tongues at any of the courses I have attended and I’m not sure if the subject was even mentioned. It is a controversial subject and many churches avoid it altogether. I have no evidence or statistics but I would suspect there is no speaking in tongues at all at a majority of Alpha courses in the US.
Comment by: Helen
30 09/11/06 4:24 AM | Comment Link |JG I take your point that the article evidently overstates the centrality of speaking in tongues in Alpha Courses in general.
This seems to be an error of overgeneralizing based on the emphasis in speaking in tongues in the particular Alpha Courses led by Nicky Gumbel.
Maybe it was true early on since he founded Alpha (I think?) but has become less true as Alpha has spread and been adopted by a variety of different churches worldwide. Those are the sorts of things that happen when an organization is trying to get their ideas adopted by people who have some common ground but also differ on some points.
Comment by: Julie Marie
31 09/11/06 4:59 AM | Comment Link |There was an article in my Sunday paper called Living the Questions a liberal alternative to Alpha. It will be offerred to the general public by one of the liberal (maybe the only ;)) churches down here. I was intrigued by thies:
“LIving the Questions is a progressive alternative for Christitan invitation and spiritual formation…emphasising that faith is a lifelong exploration. The idea is to move beyond….rote theologies and explore Christianity in a modern context.”
you can read more here, if interested.
Comment by: Julie Marie
32 09/11/06 5:00 AM | Comment Link |oohh! I can’t tell you how proud I to have figured out 1) tiny url, and 2) how to do a smooth link like Helen does!
Comment by: Helen
33 09/11/06 5:14 AM | Comment Link |Way to go on smooth links, Julie Marie! :-)
Comment by: JG
34 09/11/06 7:15 AM | Comment Link |Thanks. The handbook I’m referring to is the one produced by Nicky Gumbel/Holy Trinity Brompton so I’m not sure there is this emphasis on tongues even in the courses they run at that particular church.
Try looking at:
http://alpha.org/welcome/whatisit/index.htm
This says:
The Alpha Course consists of a series of talks addressing key issues relating to the Christian faith.
There is a light meal together at the beginning of each session which gives people a chance to get to know each other.
After each talk we divide into small groups to discuss the topic of the evening, ask questions and express opinions.
Coffee & Small groups Listen, learn, discuss and discover. And ask anything. Alpha is a place where no question is too simple or too hostile.
Talk titles
Christianity: Boring, Untrue and Irrelevant?
Who Is Jesus?
Why Did Jesus Die?
How Can I Be Sure of My Faith?
Why and How Should I Read the Bible?
Why and How Do I Pray?
How Does God Guide Us?
Who Is the Holy Spirit?
What Does the Holy Spirit Do?
How Can I Be Filled With the Spirit?
How Can I Resist Evil?
Why and How Should We Tell Others?
Does God Heal Today?
What About the Church?
How Can I Make the Most of the Rest of My Life?
Comment by: Eliza
35 09/11/06 8:03 PM | Comment Link |Julie Marie - smoooooth link! tiiiiiny url! way to go! ;) Do you think you might try to attend the course, if family & work responsibilities allow you enough time?
JG - Maybe these talks not only discuss the HS, but could tie-in to having attendees try to experience speaking in tongues?
Comment by: JG
36 09/12/06 1:32 AM | Comment Link |At Holy Trinity Brompton (HTB), the three sessions on the Holy Spirit are covered on a “day away” - from the Catch me if you can articles, it appears they went to Kidderminster for this.
So the other sessions are done say on a Wednesday evening but the three Holy Spirirt sessions are done say on a Saturday. This does mean that some guests can simply opt out of the day away if they wish to.
Even with the material produced by HTB, “speaking in tongues” forms just one small part of the teaching on the Holy Spirit but it tends to be the thing that catches the headline. From what I can tell, it does feature in the prayer time at the end of the away day but I don’t believe HTB would pray for anyone unless that person was happy to be prayed for and I believe they would be very sensitive over this.
I would have less confidence in the way some other churches run the alpha course. If someone was looking for an Alpha course, I would want to find out about the church running it and satisfy myself that it was a church I felt comfortable with. The way HTB do it will suit some people but will be quite wrong for others.
Comment by: Julie Marie
37 09/12/06 4:36 AM | Comment Link |Yes! The session that meets in my part of town (and all things considered, I’d rather meet like minded people on my side of town — easier to maintain relationships) meets on Wed nites starting Sept. 27th. My husband has a night course on M & W and doesn’t get home until 9 pm…but this is one of those cases where I think I’ll ask for a little help from my friends to watch Cody for a few hours. I am really interested in what a group with a wide ROAQ, much less ROAA would be like!
Comment by: Helen
38 09/12/06 10:01 AM | Comment Link |Julie Marie, that sounds exciting! I hope you’ll make some fun new friends there.
Comment by: Eliza
39 09/12/06 1:40 PM | Comment Link |And, we’d be very interested to hear what you think of it!
Comment by: Julie Marie
40 09/13/06 4:04 AM | Comment Link |I think I should be able to manage a post or two about it :)
Comment by: Julie Marie
41 09/13/06 4:12 AM | Comment Link |My former church ran Alpha classes, and although I didn’t take one, I’d say that on retreats and such, when the gifts of the spirit were discussed, “your special prayer language” was discussed rather in depth - but not in a pushy way. I think its probably because ‘tongues’ are the most externally visible of the gifts - without having to get to know someone and experience the gentlesness, kindness, and self control they may possess.
I was on a mission trip and the leaders wife was intensely praying over me for this gift and I got so uncomfortable!
Comment by: JG
42 09/13/06 5:01 AM | Comment Link |Julie Marie,
Thanks for your comments, I think I know just when you mean and share your discomfort. I’ve been there.
Comment by: NCxian
43 09/14/06 12:14 PM | Comment Link |Julie: The course sounds fascinating! I bet you will meet some interesting folks.
I been wondering if a church that is unabashedly “liberal” has a small ROAA too. Just on the left end of the bench. Being a bench-scooter yourself, you’ll be in a good position to see such a thing, I would think.
Comment by: Helen
44 09/14/06 12:37 PM | Comment Link |NCxian wrote:
NCxian, that’s very insightful of you.
It was partly concerns about that which caused me to quit church altogether rather than switching to a more liberal one. (I also had other reasons - if that had been my only reason not to go I would have visited to find out how their ROAA actually was, rather than assuming it was narrower than I’d like)
Comment by: Helen
45 09/14/06 12:43 PM | Comment Link |Re: Alpha courses - I got invited to one yesterday! A woman from my neighborhood called me up because she’d read what I wrote in the local newspaper yesterday. She suggested I might like it because I’d be able to ask questions there.
I didn’t even know there was an Alpha course in my neighborhood until she called. It’s run by the church I visited in May, in fact - Oak Park Vineyard.
Logistics rule out any possibility of me going but I was fascinated that I got invited to one just days after they came up on the blog!
Comment by: NCxian
46 09/14/06 12:53 PM | Comment Link |Thanks, Helen. And thanks for correcting my typo! I’ve never figured out how to proof something well on the screen–I need to print it out!
Comment by: Julie Marie
47 09/15/06 3:40 AM | Comment Link |yikes, I think you may be right, NC. I’m hoping politics doesn’t come up. I’m one of those that is leaning religiously liberal, but I remain politically conservative.
Comment by: NCxian
48 09/15/06 7:33 AM | Comment Link |OK, Julie, I’ve thought of a good test. Bring up “private prayer language”! If they are cool with that, you’ve got a nice broad ROAA. If not, you get to have a little fun watching them have the heebie-jeebies. :) (By the way, just so as not to be acting superior, I personally get the heebie-jeebies around the more exotic “gifts”!)
Comment by: Julie Marie
49 09/15/06 11:59 AM | Comment Link |OK, and I’ll do it while wearing my “Friendly Humanist Christian” T-shirt. ;)
Comment by: Julie Marie
50 09/20/06 9:31 AM | Comment Link |I just tried to sign up for the class and got a c/b from the small groups pastor…every section (4) has been filled and there are waitlists…she said the response has been overwhelming. So I am waitlisted. I’ll keep checking the “faith and values” section of the paper…maybe some other churches around here will offer it.
I am disappointed, but also a bit relieved. I wasn’t quite sure how I was going to shoehorn the class in and avoid tipping over the family applecart just now. But I was going to try to throw one more thing into the equation….
At least I know with a roaring start like this, the church will offer classes again…and perhaps by then there will be a bit more wiggle room in my family calendar!
I was so encouraged, though, by the response - there are more people who are looking for a class where questions are explored rather than answered than I realized. That bodes well for my community, I think.
Comment by: Helen
51 09/20/06 10:51 AM | Comment Link |Julie Marie, I’m sorry you couldn’t get in; but on the other hand, as you said, maybe you’ll be able to fit it into your schedule better by the time they do have room.
It’s neat to discover the interest in your community - it definitely indicates there are people living near you ‘like’ you as well as the people you’re finding you’re less and less like.
How was it talking with the pastor? Or did she just leave you a message?
Have you considered visiting a weekend service at the church running the course?
Comment by: Julie Marie
52 09/20/06 11:43 AM | Comment Link |I did speak with her. I shared that I had been a conservative evangelical x 10 years, but have recently liberalized, and just couldn’t go back to conservative theology. She invited me to her church, which she described as liberal, and I may attend at some point. I looked at their website awhile ago and liked what I saw, and told her that.
Its hard right now b/c my husband is still conservative. I’ve slid left quickly. I think we need some adjustment time. Maybe that is, as some would say “just an excuse” (thinking of things that have been said to you, Helen), however, shock loading a line will snap it - even if the actual load is well below what the line will hold.
I wonder how other people have handled the transition from conservative/fundy to liberal - when only one of the partners sliding down that bench?
Comment by: Helen
53 09/20/06 6:26 PM | Comment Link |Julie Marie, I don’t think it’s ‘just an excuse’.
I didn’t realize your husband was conservative enough he wouldn’t want to go to a liberal service.
In that case then imo it’s probably best to look for people who like you, questions and all, in ways you can pursue by yourself, without causing too much disruption to your family schedule.
By the way my experiences with Rev Lueking are challenging my picture of the bench; I think maybe there’s an range of degrees of openness within conservatism.
If so then perhaps there’s a conservative church out there conservative enough for your husband and open enough for you.
That seems much more possible to me since I’ve been in dialog/conservation with Rev Lueking, than it did to me before that dialog began.