Posted by Helen on: 09.11.2006 /
In comment #14 on Alpha Courses Marty wrote:
If it is true that Christian Churches provide organization and structure for doing things to serve others - I wonder what it would be like if they consciously reached out to those who do not attend their church and/or do not believe as they do and provided ways that everyone could work together to help make the world a better place.
Comment by: Eliza
1 09/11/06 8:41 PM | Comment Link |As an atheist, I would be leery of joining in with a Christian church in their MTWABP projects unless I were pretty sure I would be accepted “as-is”. I would feel tricked if my involvement were used as an excuse to try to “save” me, no matter how well-meaning any such attempt would be. For some Cs, not taking such a golden opportunity to try to bring someone “unsaved” to Jesus might be difficult - and might feel wrong & very uncomfortable.
This kind of partnering might work best between two established groups, like a church and a Humanist group in the same city. That way, the MTWABP projects can be planned and run together, with two-way troubleshooting and dialogue between the groups, and perhaps more equal numbers of As and Cs (rather than a few As joining a majority C effort & feeling “outnumbered”).
Comment by: Eliza
2 09/11/06 8:48 PM | Comment Link |Second comment: I’ve been attending a nearby UU church for ~2 months now and hope that will point me toward some MTWABP projects & opportunities. At one of my first Sundays there, I heard about two Habitat for Humanity trips being organized by a UU woman (who has run several of these trips before) - one to Guatemala, one to Mongolia. They sounded like wonderful opportunities to work on something really tangible for people who really need basic necessities. Unfortunately, the timing of each trip over the next year makes it unlikely that we can go, but I’m hopeful that there will be more projects, including some closer to home, that I can participate in. For me, one draw is that I’ve felt comfortable with the people I’ve met at this UU church - they’re alot like me, not always a good thing but certainly comforting as I think about a week or two on a building project with some of them!
Comment by: JG
3 09/12/06 1:19 AM | Comment Link |Here in the UK, many churches seek to work with other organisations in relation to community projects. So, in regeneration projects, one of the partner organisations is the church.
See http://www.faithworks.info/
Faithworks is a movement of thousands of individuals, churches and organisations motivated by their Christian faith to serve the needs of their local communities and positively influence society as a whole.
Faithworks has also sought to challenge and change the public perception of the Church by engaging both media and the government. In order to achieve this Faithworks regularly meets with influential decision-makers to ensure that faith-based community projects have a high priority in the setting of local and national governmental policy. We also work to ensure that the media accurately represents the work of local churches and other faith-based projects.
and http://www.oasisuk.org/Section.asp?id=263
Here at Oasis we are motivated by Christian faith, as we work to transform individuals and communities by promoting inclusion and confronting injustice.
It is for this reason that we work in the heart of some of the poorest communities in the UK and overseas with the aim of bringing transformation — socially, spiritually, emotionally, educationally, physically and environmentally — helping people to live life to its fullest.
You can read more about Oasis’ life transforming work throughout this site.
Comment by: Helen
4 09/12/06 4:04 AM | Comment Link |JG wrote:
JG, can you say a bit more about the ‘partnering’ aspect of this? What you wrote comes across to me as Christian organizations or churches requesting “Let us come in and do something for this community” and they’re given permission to do so. I don’t see that as partnering so much it’s a Christian organization coming in and working in the same community as other organizations that have come in to help that community.
(I’m not being critical of that - I’m glad to hear that Christian organizations go out into the community and do that. I’m simply saying that’s not exactly what I think of as ‘partnering’)
To me partnering is more like this: a Christian organization running a specific project invites people who aren’t Christians (or members of secular organization) to join them in carrying out the same project. So, Christians and people who aren’t Christians are all one group, doing the same thing together.
Comment by: Helen
5 09/12/06 4:12 AM | Comment Link |Eliza wrote:
Good point, Eliza. You’d need to be able to trust them.
I like that idea.
Comment by: Doreen
6 09/12/06 5:08 AM | Comment Link |I’ve seen many instances in this area of Christian churches partnering. It usually involves a Christian congregation partnering with a UU congregation. So, I’ve seen atheists working side-by-side with Christians in building houses, fixing houses, reading to school children, etc. I don’t know how a Christian congregation would go about “recruiting” atheists to help with projects on an individual basis. It doesn’t seem like an “attention all atheists” flyer would be much of a draw. :)
Comment by: Marty
7 09/12/06 9:10 AM | Comment Link |Eliza - I find it interesting that you have signed up for a Christian class where you will be introduced to Christianity (and some might say indoctrinated into Christianity)and is not likely to have a significant component of MTWABP - other than some/many/most Christians feel that they are making the world a better place merely by converting others to their beliefs. (Incidently - I very much admire you for doing this and very much look forward to hearing back about your experience.)
However, you fear becoming involved with a MTWABP project led by a Church in which it will be very clear that you will be doing something that will be making the world a better place (something I know that you personally are doing immensely well and are very committed to) in the terms that we have been using here on the board. For those who need a verse to go with it - it is something like “that which you do for the least of these my brothern you do for me.” Those who do not need or want a verse just look at it as doing something good for others which seems to just come from a sense from within. It seems that everyone seems to agree with the Golden Rule - which I think I have heard some say came from before the Bible (incidently I think it needs to have a revision. It needs to be “do under others as they would have done unto them”. The way the Bible states it would suggest that if you like fish - you would give me fish. But I don’t like fish - if you really want to do something for me - feed me steak)
The Christian project may merely be something where the Christians are expressing what being Christian is all about by doing the project - and not using this as an opportunity to try to convert you. Other Christian led projects may have a more signicant component of wanting/trying to convert you. But I would be surprised if any of the MTWABP projects that you would sign up for led by a Church are likely to have as great a component of trying to convert you as the class you will be taking. I guess all really depends on the leader who is putting on either program.
I can tell you that if you were involved with a MTWABP project led by my church - there would be absolutely no pressure to convert you - but you might find a loving manifestation that those involved may describe as coming from God/Christ from those people.
My sense is that as we do MTWABP projects together - whether they be led by Christians, Humanists, non-profits, whatever - we are bringing out the best of who we are - and when we do this with others - we really learn to like each other - and our separations and labels drift away.
My personal committment is to doing what I can to lead and/or be a part of things that MTWABP. My sense is if I am able to do that - that will be both pleasing to God and to my friends who do not believe in God.
I have planted a seed to do projects co-led by a Christian Organization and our local Humanist Organization. It is a seed that is slowly growing - but not ready to pop.
The seed that is really sprouting (and I am not the leader of - but a very great supporter of and participant in) is dialogue betwen the Musmlims and Christians (from large groups - we expect 300 next time and also includes Jews) to family get togethers (there was just a get together of three Muslim and three Christian families that I am told was wonderful).
I would really like to see the Atheists/Humanists, etc lead MTWABP projects and I will be there to support them. However, today it doesn’t seem like the Atheists are structured to lead such an effort - and I don’t see the Humanist Society in Santa Barbara moving in that direction - even though I really like them for the great speakers that they have. Non-profits may be a part of the answer. I wonder if there is any difference between Atheists and Christians in terms of serving as volunteers in non-profits.
I wonder how big a difference there is between good and God. I wonder if it is a coincidence that they are only one letter away.
Comment by: Paul
8 09/12/06 10:39 AM | Comment Link |Could you please let me know what MTWABP stands for - it’s probably blindingly obvious but today my wheels are all turning but the hampster is dead… :)
Comment by: Helen
9 09/12/06 11:22 AM | Comment Link |Sorry Paul - I should have written that out for folks who weren’t around when we first came up with the acronym - I forgot.
It’s “Making The World A Better Place”.
Comment by: Helen
10 09/12/06 11:22 AM | Comment Link |p.s. So sorry about the hamster, by the way ;-)
Comment by: Eliza
11 09/12/06 12:28 PM | Comment Link |Hi Marty -
I’m so impressed by what you are doing in Santa Barbara, and hope to someday use your example to build bridges in the community, perhaps via Christian-UU joint projects as Doreen mentioned she has seen. You’re right, atheists don’t have their own organizations which explicitly focus on MTWABP. It’s interesting that many of the apparently secular organizations that do this sort of work, like Greenpeace and Amnesty International, have Christian roots (I think).
My hesitation to join onto a Christian group’s MTWABP project is that I can easily imagine feeling defensive & on guard. Not a pleasant situation, imo, to be “doing unto others” in a practical project to help people who want that help, while feeling like I’m being “done unto”, or about to be “done unto”, as a neat side-project MTWABP for a C, which feels to me more like an unwanted display of disrespect (or even attack) toward my beliefs.
I would want the expectations to be clear ahead of time - we work together on the project, & we respect each others’ beliefs - a two-way street. For example, if there were prayer at the start of a work session, as I’ve heard there usually is on Habitat projects, I would hope people could be gathered for it with an explicit comment that this is for those who choose to pray in a group, everyone welcome but noone treated differently for not participating.
You said: “I wonder how big a difference there is between good and God. I wonder if it is a coincidence that they are only one letter away.” I can appreciate the poetry and meaning of this observation; but for me it serves as a reminder that As and Cs have quite different reasons for valuing “doing good.” Even if it all comes down to doing unto others (loving thy neighbor), the way we talk about why that’s important seems quite different for us.
My nonpoetic, literal, skeptic’s answer is that “good” and “God” have different etymologies, so in fact it is a coincidence that they differ by only one letter in English. But I know that’s an unnecessarily secular response to your poetic and rhetorical question. ;)
Comment by: JG
12 09/13/06 8:05 AM | Comment Link |It may be better to invite someone from Faithworks to comment on this.
Obviously there are a whole range of different activities. You have churches running projects, other organisations running projects and Christians being involved either as individuals or as representatives of local churches or you get different organisations working togther in partnership including churches.
It would be worth looking at the Faithworks Charter which you can find at:
http://www.faithworks.info/SubSection.asp?id=2625
This includes:
I believe that most churches running their own projects in line with Faithworks principles would be only to happy to have non members working with them and I am sure there are many examples of this.
Although some Christians have the mindset described by Jim:
it is quite wrong to assume that all Christians have the same mindset - we shouldn’t put people in boxes in this way. So I’m not sure how helpful it is to even think in terms of churches partnering with atheists - I would suggest it would be better to say:
[Steve Chalke "Faithworks" published 2001 page 9]
Comment by: Paul
13 09/13/06 10:06 AM | Comment Link |Thanks Helen, much appreciated. I wouldn’t worry to much about the hamster he was very tasty :)