Posted by Helen on: 09.12.2006 /
Doreen has kindly agreed to be our sixth online interview candidate. (If you’d like to read more by Doreen, she also wrote My Gay Forum Experience: A time of healing on our Doable Evangelism blog).
The purpose of this interview is to give you the opportunity to listen to Doreen as she shares her thoughts and opinions with you.
If you want to discuss whether Doreen’s views are correct, we invite you to do that here on the discussion board. Doreen is welcome to participate in discussions there about her views if she wants to. If she doesn’t have the time or inclination that’s fine with us – we don’t consider doing so ‘part of the interview’.
I’d like to post more online interviews. If you’d like to send one in, you can find the instructions and questions here.
What screen name do you post under — so we know you when we see you?
Doreen
Would you like to share any of the following so we can know you better: your age range, whether you’re married or single, have children, what kind of work you do, what area of the U.S. (or other country) you live in?
I’m almost 48; I was born in CA but have lived in AZ, NY, PA, NJ, VA, and now MD. I’m partnered; I have 19- and 31-yr old stepsons from 2 previous relationships with women. (I co-parented the 19-yr old from age 9 to 18 and the 31-yr old from 14 to 20). I was married to a man for a few years in my mid 20s; we did not have children. He and I are still good friends.
I live outside Washington, DC; my tuition-paying job is working as a government contractor — I am a part-time, evening MDiv student in DC. I just started a 10-hour per week internship at a United Church of Christ in MD.
What do you like to do when you have some time to yourself?
What’s that? We just got a puppy, so he is such a nice diversion when I have free time. My partner & I go out for dinner at least once a week and Sat. is typically our day to do things together. We both enjoy working in the yard, running errands, concerts, sports events, and your other typical suburban pleasures. I’m an internetaholic.
Please share with us something you really enjoy about your life.
Being partnered with my best friend. My serenity (clean & sober since 7/4/1988), which is only heightened since I accepted Christ last year. Also my family; I feel so blessed to still have my parents & have such a great relationship with them, as well as my 3 siblings and their spouses. I’m in the middle of planning my parents’ 50th anniversary party for June 2007.
If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about you or your life, what would it be?
Nothing. Everything happens for a reason, and everything that has happened (or not happened) to me makes me who I am today. If pressed, I would wish my mother never got breast cancer because it was torture to see her go through that; however, she has been cancer-free for over 16 years. Her battle was a blessing in that it made all of us realize what is really important in life.
How did you find Conversation at the Edge (or, the eBay atheist blog) and what drew you to post in the comments section?
I attended an OTM event last fall and became acquainted with Jim and the website. I was drawn to post because I enjoyed the conversations going on. I am not accustomed to this level of civility and it is refreshing.
Is this the first time you’ve participated in any online discussions on the internet? If not, could you share with us what other sorts of online discussions you like to participate in?
No. I participate in my professional society’s blog, a group for UU students at my seminary, and numerous other interests. I’m a computer geek and was an early internet user (pre-1993). I used to post on AOL, Compuserve, Delphi, and other discussions, about 80% of the time on G/L/B/T issues (usually arguing with fundamentalists, in particular a group we termed “the stepford wives”).
Has posting on Conversation at the Edge (or the eBay atheist blog) changed you in any way?
Yes. My previous connections with atheists, although limited, were not positive. I knew a few at a previous UU church I attended and they were so bitter. A guy I worked with was an atheist to the point of crossing off “In God we trust” off money; he killed himself on New Year’s Eve several years ago. (I’m not making a connection there; I know far too many who chose that route and most of them were not atheist.)
CATE has also helped me realize not all Christians hate and condemn G/L/B/T people. I know that intellectually but sometimes forget emotionally.
Were you raised going to church and are you currently a church attender?
I was raised until age 13 going to Roman Catholic mass and CCD every Sunday. My mother wanted us to experience “something” and since she & my father were RC, that was it. She always said we were free to become anything/nothing after that. My mother taught me there is more than 1 way to a good end. I sat in circles with her and other relatives from since I can remember to age 10. So, I’ve had experiences with what some might call paranormal and others may call “what we just can’t explain with science yet” or “the devil,” depending on one’s point of view.
I attended Robert Schuller’s “Crystal Cathedral” in Garden Grove, CA, from 1978-1981 and 1983-1984. I liked the positivity. I still watch it on TV sometimes. Neither of my 1st 2 relationships included church, but when I met the woman with the 8-yr old we wanted him to have religious education and we discovered the UU church. When he dropped out of RE, she stopped going to church but I didn’t.
Starting this fall, I’m at a UCC service most Sundays for my internship. The Sundays I’m not there, I rotate among a UU fellowship, an AME church, and Cedar Ridge Community Church (AKA, the church founded by Brian McLaren).
What is your main reason for choosing to be a church attender/not to be a church attender at present?
I like the intellectual reflection at the UU fellowship; the joyous singing, dancing, shouting at the AME church; and the contemplative mood and spirituality at CRCC. When I don’t go it is because I can’t get my butt out of bed because I’ve stayed up all night reading, playing on the internet, or watching TV, OR because I can’t overcome my fear that if “they” (the AME and CRCC people) knew I was gay they wouldn’t be so welcoming.
Is there anything else (outside work and family) which you devote significant time to? Or used to, or hope to in the future? (We understand that for some of you, work and family takes up almost all your time at present)
BS (before seminary), I enjoyed being a youth mentor and youth basketball coach. I hope I can get back to those activities in the future. I get to as many protests in DC as I can. One of my hopes for the future is to be the world’s first lesbian televangelist.
Has anyone ever called you a “fundy” or “fundamentalist”? Have you heard or read anything which tells you that some people talk about you like that behind your back?
Heck no, but becoming Christian did cause some concern among some of my UU friends.. My mother has alluded to “since you got religion” a few times, which is funny since I am not all that different from the me from before I accepted Christ and while I’m still not sure I “got religion,” I’ve always been spiritual.
How would you/do you feel about being called a “fundy” or “fundamentalist”?
I don’t see a gay person ever being called that but I would just laugh if it ever happened. Then I would want to have a conversation with the caller.
How do you like to describe yourself regarding your beliefs?
It’s in rapid motion. Perhaps a non-traditional Christian? I believe there is a higher power. I believe there is a holy spirit-type force. I believe Jesus existed. I don’t believe in original sin or hell.
Please answer the following questions if your beliefs differ in any significant way from this: “Every human being has a “sin’ problem separating him/her from God and the only way to resolve my own sin problem is to believe that Jesus is God and Jesus took care of it for me”.
Has anyone ever called you “lost”? Have you heard or read anything which tells you that some people talk about you like that behind your back?
Oh I’ve been called much worse than lost. (See www.godhatesfags.com; I’ve been at events where this group was also there.)
How would you/do you feel about being called “lost”?
I would reply, “I once was lost but now I’m found” and see where that takes us.
Do you feel “lost” in any way — is there anything you’re trying to find, or is anyone trying to find you, as best you can tell?
I only feel lost when driving in DC.
Are you aware of any assumptions people make about “the lost” which don’t apply to you?
Gays and lesbians are not Christian is a false assumption I often run into. These so-called ex-gay ministries are based on this. If you read their literature, they say they want to lead gays & lesbians to Christ. Hello, I’m already there!
How do you like to describe yourself regarding what you believe or have no belief in?
At the most basic level, a follower of Christ. Otherwise, a liberal Christian. I’ll be able to describe myself better soon; I’m taking Systematic Theology this semester and next, at the end one must have developed a 40-page paper on one’s theology. It’s a little frightening in that I’ve only got about a page right now, and even that changes day-to-day.
What (else) would you like to tell the people who call you “lost” if you thought they were listening?
Aren’t we all lost in one way or another?
Do you own a Bible? Do you ever read the Bible or look anything up in it? If so, what is your main reason for doing so?
As a seminarian, I own more Bibles than I know what to do with. Prior to seminary, I owned 2. I think I’ve got 6 now. I do look things up, particularly when people throw Leviticus and Paul in my face regarding homosexuality. I also like to just open it and read wherever I land. When I’m in a poetry mood, I look at Psalms.
As best you know, has anything in the Bible influenced you in a good way (directly or indirectly)?
Yes, the fundamental message that there is one rule: love one another.
As best you know, has anything in the Bible influenced you in a negative way (directly or indirectly)?
It used to, before I studied both church history and the Bible at seminary. There are so many passages that can be twisted by those who want to justify that their interpretation is the only “right” one.
Has anyone expressed disapproval to you about your own personal opinion, or use, of the Bible? What would you like them to understand better about you and the Bible, were it possible?
All the time! One of the biggest mistakes I find is those who do not read the Bible in context. The argument there is, “it was written for all time.” Well, if that’s so, why have most Christians stop using the Bible to justify slavery when it was used that way for many years? The Bible needs to be viewed in its entirety; one cannot just pick & choose convenient verses. When people quote Leviticus to me, I like to ask them if they eat shrimp. After the puzzled look, I point them to the verses in Leviticus where one is not supposed to eat shellfish.
Comment by: Helen
1Thanks Doreen – I enjoyed reading about your life!
Is your goal to be in full-time Christian ministry, once you’re finished with your MDiv?
Comment by: Doreen
2Thanks Helen. I am not sure where the path will take me. I originally thought I’d be a UU minister with a social justice emphasis on women’s prison ministry. Lately I’ve felt more of a call to pastoral counseling to the G/L/B/T community. A friend has a vision of starting a UU bordering school in DC and that is something I could see myself involved with. Right now I am wondering why I cringed when I read “Christian ministry”…I guess I am still so conflicted with that language due to bad experiences.
Comment by: Julie Marie
3Thanks Doreen, I’ve enjoyed your comments for some time now, its nice to learn a bit more about you! I particularly resonate with your statement that your beliefs are in rapid motion :)
Comment by: Helen
4Those all sound like wonderful ways to minister to peoples’ needs.
I understand – sorry about that… Maybe it’s best just to call it ‘ministry’!
Comment by: Marty
5“…because I can’t overcome my fear that if “they” (the AME and CRCC people) knew I was gay they wouldn’t be so welcoming.”
This makes me sad – and a bit mad. It also surprised me that you would feel that way relative to the church that Brian’s had Pastored. Somehow that seems incongruent with my perception of Brian.
I have a close friend (she served on our “Clearness Committee” when we were married as Quakers) who had been married to a man and has subsequently been in a long term relationship with a woman. She is one of my most valued and wise friends. She leads an “Alternatives to Violence” program in prisons throughout California.
Wherever your minsitry takes you – those you serve will be most fortunate to be with and learn from you.
Comment by: Marty
6I see that Helen just posted an article on Brian on the OA blog – a part of which describes Brian on homosexuality.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/09/AR2006090901155_pf.html
What makes McLaren’s ideas attractive to progressive evangelicals appalls the more numerous conservatives. Noting that he fails to condemn homosexuality, one conservative Web site called him “A True Son of Lucifer” for ignoring “absolute biblical truth.” And last year, Baptists in Kentucky revoked a speaking invitation after McLaren said that followers of Jesus might not be the only ones to gain salvation
“I don’t see the issue of homosexuality as the simple black-and-white issue that some of my fellow evangelicals make it out to be,” said McLaren, who last year was named by Time magazine among the “25 most influential evangelicals in America.”
Comment by: Eliza
7Doreen, thanks for doing this interview – it’s great to learn more about you!
Could I ask a few questions: How did you find out about the OTM event last year at which you met Jim? And, did you decide to go to seminary before or after you became Christian?
An aside about the UU church I’ve been going to – they each seem to have their own flavor: from what I can tell talking with people there, they seem to be mostly atheists. (The minister opened his sermon ‘What if God were one of us?’ a few weeks ago by saying, “now I know some of you get all upset when I bring up ‘God.’ For the purposes of today’s sermon, I just want to say: Get OVER it! There were alot of laughs, and some good casual discussion after the service.) The mood is positive, upbeat, and very welcoming. The minister is from a Pentacostal background, gay, played piano in a bar for years, and identifies as a UU Christian; his services are rollicking, & he takes over the piano from the music director when there are gospel songs. It don’t know if its his influence, but there seem to be quite a few gay members at this congregation. So, anyway, I’ve enjoyed it, and it sounds like I’ve lucked out finding a group that includes happy atheists!
Comment by: jim
8Doreen you know I am ready to help with this…
Helen great questions and Doreen as always my admiration and respect for your honesty, sobriety and patience with Cs
Comment by: Doreen
9Marty wrote:
CRCC is, generally speaking, more conservative than Brian. I used to think Brian had the right idea to not “pick a side” in the gay marriage debate. I’ve changed my views, however. I really felt called to serve my internship at CRCC but my impression was, it’s okay (for G/L and maybe B, but not T) to worship with us, play in the praise band, teach Bible study, but don’t be thinking you’re going to give us communion or preach to us.
Because the congregation has not taken a stand one way or another, the ministerial staff is in a difficult position. What happens if a G/L couple from the church asks for a holy union?
Thanks Marty.
Comment by: Doreen
10Julie Marie wrote
That’s nice to hear. Last night in my Systematic Theology class the entire lecture was on the attributes of God, including at least an hour on whether God experiences suffering. I thought my head was going to explode. Just when you thought you’d decided, someone would say something that made you think totally the opposite!
Comment by: Doreen
11Eliza wrote
I am honest to a fault and willing to answer almost any question. I found out about the OTM event from a posting on campus – it mentioned Brian was one of the speakers.
I felt the call to ministry BEFORE my conversion experience. It was at a UU service where the theme was “using our gifts.” When the minister spoke about being called to use our gifts, whether it is being on the flower committee, teaching religious education, or anything else. It was like those “thunderbolt” moments you hear about. I felt like the minister was talking to me.
For years I had job hopped in the computer field, being very well compensated but feeling like all I was doing was allowing middle aged white men to buy bigger boats. (That really was what I was doing; I probably know 10 millionaires who got that way thanks to work by the “little people” like me.)
I knew there had to be a better way to use my gifts.
That’s fantastic! Your UU congregation sounds like a wonderful place.
Comment by: Doreen
12Jim wrote
Thanks Jim.
Regarding my televangelist pursuit, I have a friend who is working on a treatment for it. We are going to pitch it to a specific cable network, the name of which I won’t mention yet.
I’ve already talked to Wayne Besen (www.anythingbutstraight.com) about being my first guest. For those of you who don’t know his work, he is a leader in countering the “ex-gay ministries” fabrications.
Comment by: Karen
13Doreen wrote:
One of my hopes for the future is to be the world’s first lesbian televangelist.
sozo would be better.
Comment by: Helen
14Karen wrote:
Karen, you need to take those kinds of comments to the discussion board. As the intro to the interview says:
If you want you can start a more general discussion there on a topic of your choice. (You’ll need to register before you can post on there)
Comment by: Julie Marie
15Tell me about it! I think my brain has whiplash.
Comment by: Mike O
16Doreen, how would you compare the gulf between glbt Chrstians and straight Christians, vs between atheists and Christians.
Seems like it could almost be worse, which is interesting. I’m slapping my own hand here, by the way.
Comment by: Eliza
17Going back a few days, and a line or two before the quote Julie Marie gave above:
That sounds really interesting! Can you tell us about any other eye-popping topics that have come up at seminary?
Comment by: Doreen
18Mike asked
That’s a really good question. I see glbt Christians being “set aside” by both glbt non-Christians and by straight Christians, particularly those of a certain theology.
There are a lot of glbt who don’t see how you can be glbt and be a Christian just as there are many glbt who don’t see how you can be glbt and be a Republican. One of my goals is to help the glbt community understand the concept of liberal religion.
Particulary among lesbians, anything that smacks of patriarchal is a no-no, and that would apply to most churches. (To such a ridiculous extent that when I belonged to a lesbian mom’s group, some lesbians wouldn’t associate with those who adopted or had boys.)
When attending predominantly g/l/b/t Christian churches, there are many more gay men than women.
My seminary is on the liberal side, so I encountered much more prejudice about not being Christian than about being gay. In that regard, the gulf may be wider between atheists and Christians.
Comment by: Doreen
19Eliza asked
It’s almost that every meeting of every class brings something new to consider. Here are some examples off the top of my head.
1 – If you can only pick one on which to focus, do you pick how Jesus lived or his resurrection & promise of return? (The theory is that conversative Christians focus on the latter and liberal Christians focus on the former.)
2 – The more one tries to “do the right thing,” the further one falls away from God. One should live by faith, not by trying to win God’s favor by doing the right thing.
3 – Today in my Unitarian Universalist history & polity class we studied Channing’s “Likeness to God” address. Channing’s point is based on the belief that we are charged to imitate God and become ever closer to being like him. I have a problem with this. Since we know we can never be “just like God,” I don’t think that’s what we are called to do. I don’t think God would set us up for failure.
4 – If the Bible is the word of God, why are there so many contradictions within (particularly among the Gospels)?
5 – How does Jesus’ belief that poor were among him not due to laziness or shortcomings, but because of the omnipresence of oppression and exploitation relate to how we treat the poor today?
Talk amongst yourselves….
:)
Comment by: Helen
20Doreen, your answer to Mike (comment 18) is very interesting. What I love is that because you’re for these women, you might be able to help them move beyond their own fears and prejudices. It’s so much easier to hear what we need to work on from someone who we know is for us and wants the best for us, and understands the specific challenges we face in overcoming our specific issues.
I’ve written before about how impressed I was with Andrew Marin, who seeks to build bridges between Christians and the GLBT community. He shows a sensitivity and understanding I haven’t encountered before from a straight conservative Christian. This is because when some of his close friends told him they were GLBT (a surprise to him) his response was “I want to understand“, and to “immerse himself in the GLBT community as much as a straight person can”.
Anyway, his own website seems to be currently unavailable but here’s a detailed article about him:
His God doesn’t hate fags
You might not agree with everything he says or does, but for me, it was encouraging to discover that he’s out there, trying to build bridges with sensitivity and compassion and respect.
Comment by: Helen
21Doreen (comment #19), wow, you certainly do have some interesting discussions in your classes!
Comment by: NCxian
22Doreen said:
It has been a real eye-opener here at this site since March (yes, March, can you believe it?!?)–that liberal Christianity is not on most folks’ radar. Some of the most fun conversations I have had have been convincing people that Christianity is a very big tent. I’ve found that conservative Christians are almost as likely to be unaware of the left end of the spectrum as are non-religious people.
Comment by: Helen
23NCxian wrote:
Yes indeed. It’s probably not in their leaders’ best interests to highlight the fact that there are liberal Christians out there. It might make conservative Christians curious and initiate some research that might lead conservative Christians away from being conservative.
Conservative Christians that are aware of liberal Christians tend to think very negatively of liberal Christians for claiming the name ‘Christian’ and yet actively ‘denying’ some of what conservative Christians consider ‘essential’ beliefs.
Comment by: Mike O
24Bingo! If I can be painfully transparent here … that’s me. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, just that it’s me. And it’s nice to have a group here that we can still converse in a civil manner.
If there’s one thing I’m learning here, it’s how to be civil and seek to understand even though I don’t agree.