Posted by Helen on: 09.14.2006 /
I was pleased to have the opportunity to meet Rev. Lueking in person yesterday. He was as kind and respectful and affirming in person as he has been to me in his responses in the local newspaper. We enjoyed talking with each other and are going to meet again next week to ‘continue the conversation’.
We shared our lives with each other a little and also talked about beliefs a little. I’ll make some general observations about what was special about Rev Lueking and this conversation rather than give all the details of it:
He was interested in me as a person, not just my ‘spiritual state’. I was a person, not a ‘project’, to him.
He gave me the benefit of the doubt. He didn’t say I was making excuses or lacked courage. As far as he was concerned, it was fine that I was asking questions.
He was perceptive. He affirmed me for being discreet about difficult experiences with other people because he noticed that I was, not because I announced to him “I’m discreet”. That meant a lot because I have made the choice NOT to say certain things many times because I believed it was right. And that has been a lonely and hard choice. As best I can recall this is the first time a Christian leader has noticed and commented on it.
He was very positive in a relaxed ‘I appreciate life – I am very blessed’ way which made it fun to talk with him.
He didn’t say anything invalidating. He listened and asked questions and kept saying “What I like about that is…” in response to what I said.
When he talked about his faith, it was in a “this is who I am and what matters to me” way, not in a “You need to agree with me because this is true” way.
He liked that I continue to be interested in Jesus – he said he was glad because Jesus of Nazareth is very important to him and is the center of his faith.
He agreed with me about how it’s a problem when faith ends up imposing rigidity and limits on people.
He didn’t try to ‘teach’ me or assume any sort of pastoral authority over me. He talked to me simply as one person to another, not as a teacher to someone who knows less than he does.
Many of my recent conversations with Christians have been difficult because their entire focus has been on their concern over my spiritual state. We have not been able to have a fun conversation or connect over common ground, because they have been stuck in the concern and what divides us theologically. On the other hand, it was easy to connect with Rev. Lueking because he wasn’t ‘stuck’ anywhere. That was awesome.
I told him a little about Off The Map – about my involvement; also about how dialog I’ve had as a result of my involvement has helped me feel less resistant to the idea that I am still a follower of Jesus (albeit a very non-traditional one).
The word I’d use to summarize how he treated me is ‘grace’ – which is one of my favorite words and concepts. He showed me incredible grace. I can only think – wow, how many people he must have blessed throughout his life, by treating them this way.
Rev. Lueking gave me his e-mail address yesterday. I’m going to send him the URL to this blog and hope I haven’t written anything inappropriate or disrespectful!
Comment by: Eliza
1Helen,
How wonderful! How nice to be affirmed as a human being with thoughts and feelings, worth listening to! (IMO, you were well overdue for someone to treat you like that!)
This is just an unchurched atheist’s observation, but it seems to me Rev. Lueking’s responses to your “situation” were more like what I’d expect from someone who is “following Jesus” than the responses you have received before. (Jesus said “love thy neighbor” not “badger thy neighbor”; he was inclusive and accepting of everyone except those who followed the letter of religious law not the spirit of God-love; that sort of thing. I’m not meaning to offend anyone, & realize I may have just put my foot in my mouth…but that’s what it looks like to me.)
Comment by: Karen
2Dear Helen,
I’ve met Dr. Lueking on various ocasions, though have never shared coffee or a meal with him; and he’s always been very kind and gracious toward me, too. His character and faith make him somewhat of a male version of “Esther” I think. He’s definitely on a mission, while carrying it out with wisdom and love in a way that is personally and culturally relevant. Dave Worth at 1st Pres in River Forest is very much like that, too. I don’t want to compare one against the other, but Dave Worth is a really terrific, caring man who really demonstrates kindness, stregth and godliness in a neat way. Eliza, I don’t know you, but you seem like a very fun person. I don’t think you’re offending anybody. One thing that came to mind while reading your comments was Jesus welcoming and prophecying to the woman at the well in Samaria (Jesus was willing to be countercultural if that’s what it took to show honor to honest, God-seeking people). Then I thought of how Jesus went on a tirade through the temple, knocking over the tables of the moneychangers who were cheating the low-income travellers to Jerusalem (who were there simply to worship God and bring whatever sacrifice they could afford). Jesus said, “My father’s house will be a house of prayer, but you have made it into a den of robbers.” He was ticked off at the money changers and took action. About “badger thy neighbor”, I think that people who badger are usually just trying to do what’s right to save a life. Sometimes it might be for brownie points in heaven more than out of respect for the other person, but often it is out of respect and true love…though demonstrated ina way that can be hard to receive. My nephew TP’d my house on my birthday. He thought that I would love it. Badgering thy neighbor might sometimes be a bit like throwing a bucket of water on dry ground that you know contains good seed. Nothing is going to happen right away, but if you keep doing it and there’s enough sunshine to go along with it, something very beautiful might spring up from the ground that will surprise and enliven everybody. I remember back to my sophomore year in college. PE classes were mandatory, as well as 3-mile runs for time and twice-yearly weigh-ins. (the college had a holistic approach to education: body, mind, spirit). It was time for my weigh in. I happened to get into a PE class which was mostly male. The PE teacher, who did not have the same kind of discretion that Helen Mildenhall has, reacted as he saw the weight that registered on the scale, and then saw what the previous semester’s weight had been. “You gained 12 POUNDS in one semester!?” I was a bit embarrassed, and didn’t realize the weight gain. Yes, my clothing seemed to be getting a bit tighter, but I didn’t know how bad it was unil it was actually measured and announced. It served as motivation for me. I began jogging more, which ended up being very enjoyable. I also slowly lost the extra weight, which felt very good. So, that uncomfortable moment of confrontation resulted in my benefit. I think the badgerers, at least some of them, really do care. They want what is best for their fellow man and woman, and they are not afraid to make it known. It is up to us to be equally as honest with the badgerers directly to their faces. Make the boundaries known. They will learn how better to love, and they will also gain fodder for their prayer times. They’ll know the obstacles facing the person, and sic the hound of heaven onto those obstacles to clear the blockages out of the way. I also think that a “relationship with God” is kind of like a marriage. There are ups and downs, fights, times when communication is challenging. There are times of great romance and respect, times of anger and disdain. God is a good spouse. He’s faithful, even when we’re not. I would LOVE to hear what you’re thinking right now!
Comment by: Helen
3Hi Karen,
Thanks for your comments!
I don’t know Dave Worth very well; I have been impressed with his wife Nancy – I don’t know her well either but she has always been very friendly when we’ve run into each other around Oak Park and River Forest.
Thanks for pointing out that the ‘badgerers’ care and mean well. I think the key is, having sensitivity and discernment to know whether the person in front of you needs badgering or a word of encouragement. I’ve been struck for a long time by that Bible verse about Jesus “a bruised reed he will not break” because it speaks of such amazing gentleness and sensitivity.
Comment by: Helen
4Thanks Eliza.
I do like Rev. Lueking’s way of following Jesus.
I appreciate your honest opinion on what you’d expect from a follower of Jesus. As far as I’m concerned, your opinion ‘counts’ – after all, you’ve read the same texts that Christians read; you’re entitled to form an opinion about how Jesus is portrayed in them!
Comment by: jim
5Me too Eliza – thats what I read as well
Comment by: Paul
6heh cool to hear to Helen that it was such a fun meeting! :)
You are a top person!!
Comment by: David H
7I have mixed feelings about reading Eliza’s description of Jesus.
On one hand, I feel affirmed that a self-professed unchurched atheist sees something similar to me in what Jesus should be (based on what we are told about him).
On the other hand, it is really sad that many self-professed followers of Christ can’t seem to see past cultural issues, religious traditions and personal prejudices to anything resembling that same Jesus.
Maybe God is so big he can’t be understood. But my reading of the things the Jesus said and did makes him seem a pretty simple and straight-forward guy. Why don’t more Christians get it?
Comment by: Helen
8I posted David H’s comment as a new blog entry:
Why don’t more Christian get it?
Comment by: NCxian
9Your description of how you felt about Dr. Leuking’s response to you, as compared to the other conversations you have had, is very useful. I intend to pass it around to some sincere but hard-headed evangelicals I know. It would be a good conversation starter for the Doable Evangelism discussion, or maybe Ordinary Attempts.
Comment by: Helen
10Thanks NCxian. Let me know if you get any interesting responses from the evangelicals you know.
I’ll pass on your last comment to Jim and Bruce.
Comment by: Marty
11Helen – what a lovely experience. It thrills me to see respectful dialogue moving beyond the virtual world and into personal experiences.
Rev. Lueking – you have shared with us (through Helen) what being Christian is all about. It would really be great to have you join our dialogue and share your own experience with Helen since the time you first read her original article in your local newspaper.
I am very hopeful that the two of you will share your stories of your meeting with your newspaper and see how other readers respond to the sharing of that experience. I would hope that religious and non-religious as well as other newspapers/magazines and media will pick up on it.
I went back and re-read the wonderful story of Rev. Lueking and his work around the world http://www.wjinc.com/main.asp?Search=1&ArticleID=5367&SectionID=4&SubSectionID=4&S=1 If you haven’t read it or fully remember it – I highly recommend it to everyone.
Although Rev. Lueking is very special – it pleases me that Helen has had the opportunity to experience this type of Christian minister – because, like Karen pointed out – there are many fine Christian ministers that are more similar to Rev. Lueking than what you have experienced. I too am fortunate that my minister falls into that category.
Comment by: Mike O
12Karen, I liked what you wrote about Christians badgering non-Christians. We mean well, but we’re just not that good at communicating outside our own community yet.
As a Christian speaking for myself, I think what happens is that they are so surprised by the fact that someone would actually dare to say out loud that they don’t believe in Jesus, that they kind of go on tilt. Seriously, the Christians I know don’t realize that you can be an unbeliever in Christ without being rebellious or just plain stubborn.
We mean you no harm, we’re just not that good at the whole communication thing. Well, some are actually jerks, but I suspect most mean well.
Comment by: Karen
13I don’t know Dave Worth very well; I have been impressed with his wife Nancy – I don’t know her well either but she has always been very friendly when we’ve run into each other around Oak Park and River Forest.
Hi helen,
I’m glad you know Nancy, too. She is wonderful, too. She is a dear friend, and we have had coffee many times. She helped pastor me through a tough time a couple of years ago. Glenda Simpkins-Hoffman is lovely and gracious as well. Kathleen Kegel at Yorkfield Pres in Elmhurst is terrific and understanding and wise. There are some really loving, gracious clergy out there.
Comment by: Helen
14Mike, thanks.
Karen, I’m glad Nancy was able to help you through a tough time.
Comment by: DoableEvangelism » Blog Archive » Concern, challenge, affirmation - which approach is best?
15 09/15/06 6:29 AM | Comment Link |[...] Meeting Rev. Lueking [...]
Comment by: Helen
16NCxian, I posted the following on the doable evangelism blog in response to your comment #9:
Concern, challenge, affirmation – which approach is best?
Feel free to add your own thoughts and questions in the comments since I was guessing what discussion you’d like to have and I’m not sure whether my guess was right!
Comment by: Rachel
17I love that verse as well, Helen. One of my desires as a follower of Jesus is to learn that kind of gentleness and sensitivity. We must be so careful because our well meaning but insensitive words can deeply wound others who are already hurting.
In my own life, it seems the primary way I’ve learned any tenderness and sensitivity toward others has been through my own pain and struggle. I love this quote from the classic devotional “Streams in the Desert.”
If you aspire to be a person of consolation, if you want to share the priestly gift of sympathy, if you desire to go beyond giving commonplace comfort to a heart that is tempted, and if you long to go through the daily exchanges of life with the kind of tact that never inflicts pain, then you must be prepared to pay the price for a costly education – for like Christ, you must suffer.