Posted by Helen on: 09.14.2006 /
David H wrote the following in comment #7 of Meeting Rev. Lueking:
Eliza: This is just an unchurched atheist’s observation, but it seems to me Rev. Lueking’s responses to your “situation” were more like what I’d expect from someone who is “following Jesus” than the responses you have received before. (Jesus said “love thy neighbor” not “badger thy neighbor”; he was inclusive and accepting of everyone except those who followed the letter of religious law not the spirit of God-love; that sort of thing. I’m not meaning to offend anyone, & realize I may have just put my foot in my mouth…but that’s what it looks like to me.)
I have mixed feelings about reading Eliza’s description of Jesus.
On one hand, I feel affirmed that a self-professed unchurched atheist sees something similar to me in what Jesus should be (based on what we are told about him).
On the other hand, it is really sad that many self-professed followers of Christ can’t seem to see past cultural issues, religious traditions and personal prejudices to anything resembling that same Jesus.
Maybe God is so big he can’t be understood. But my reading of the things that Jesus said and did makes him seem a pretty simple and straight-forward guy. Why don’t more Christians get it?
Comment by: Karen
1Didn’t Jesus say, “if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father [God]? Somehow, we Christians will worship Jesus, and relate to God as if He were completely different fomr Jesus.
Then, you throw the Holy Spirit into the picture with healing, speaking in tongues, prophecy, people falling down under God’s power while he does healing on their spirit, body, mind and emotions, and people start crying and howling while they are getting free from demons…how much of this do we see in church? Yet, that’s just a day in the life of Jesus. Just read the gospels. Why DON’T Christians get it?
Comment by: Helen
2Karen wrote:
Karen, I want to make sure I understand you: are you saying we should see more of these things in church? If so, what do Christians need to do differently in order to see more of them in church?
Comment by: Eliza
3It looks that way to me, too, as an observer…like Jesus welcomes Cs into heaven, and God is the “heavy” when one is needed.
Karen (or anyone), did Jesus use the Holy Spirit to heal people and exorcise the demons from them (or, did the Holy Spirit work through him)? Or, was it him and his own power that did the work? Or, is it meaningless to try to make a distinction?
Comment by: Doreen
4Things fell to pieces when the house churches were replaced by the institutional churches. This is one reason we see a return to house churches and non-denominational churches that focus less on a lengthy creed than on social justice and the primary command to love one another.
The church, and those that attend, fell away from church being a verb to church being a noun. Faith is not faith until it is expressed in action (and not by works).
I also think there are more that “get it” than we hear about. This means they are doing in the “Christ” way in not publicizing their own good deeds. The media and popular culture find more to tout in the bad than in the good.
Comment by: Mike O
5I don’t understand the question. What is it that Christians are doing and what is it they should be doing?
Comment by: Mike O
6To Eliza’s question: IMO, Jesus WAS God and that’s why he could do such things. Not because he ‘had access to’ God or the Holy Spirit, but because that’s who he actually was.
In John 10:37-39, Jesus says, “Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.”
As a side note, this is also an indication that Jesus was claiming by his actions to not simply be a mere man, but that he was actually God (or at least equal to Him). If he just did wonderful things and never claimed to be anything other than a man … if he never considered himself to be anything they considered blasphemous, why were they always trying to seize him?
Also, prior to his execution, Jesus said this, telling his disciples that after he goes away (ascends into heaven), that they will do even greater things than Jesus did.
“I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.”
To me, this is saying that Jesus had within himself the power to do the things you spoke of (he was God), and after he leaves he will give us that power in greater measure (as the Holy Spirit).
This is how I see it. I suppose there are other ways that it could have worked … I would be foolish to think I fully understood how the trinity worked.
Comment by: Karen
7Hi again Helen, Eliza, Doreen and Mike and any newcomers! This blog thing is new for me, so I don’t know how to cut and paste from what you all have posted. Not sure I can come close to proficiently answering questions, but I’ll try to go deeper. Do I think more healing, deliverence ministry, power ministry, and all needs to be in our church services? YES! AND on the streets, in our homes, in the grocery store, at the park, at work…everywhere. We all need healing. I think it’s sad that we tend to “hold it together” in church. I think church is the place we all ought to lose it. My vision for church involves weeping on the floor. It involves dancing. It involves just sitting there silently in the presence of God. It involves various people getting up to share what God is doing in their life. It involves confession, laying on of hands, taking communion together, singing together, crying together. It involves distinguishing between spirits and receiving ministry from angels. Church ought to be a safe place for believers to clean each other up, encourage each other, feed each other and be real. That’s my vision for church.
Mike O’s comments were so intriguing. I really found myself agreeing with him.
I’m focusing on Philippians 2, and Luke 2. Paul talks about how Jesus humbled himself and became a man, and was obedient to death. Luke says he came as a baby born to a virgin; and he grew in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and people. Hebrews says Jesus learned obedience through the things he suffered. Jesus went to John the Baptist and was baptized, and then the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove rested on his shoulder, and there was an affirming voice from heaven. He then was driven to the wilderness by the Holy Spirit where he was tempted by the devil for 40 days, without sin. Then the devil gave up for the time being; and the angels attended Jesus. I believe that Jesus had a great relationship with God [Father] and was able to communicate with God back and forth in unhindered clarity and devotion. There was absolutely no sin in the way. Jesus, I believe, did miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, based on what He knew the Father wanted. Believers today also do miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, following in the footsteps of Jesus, to communicate God’s character. I want so much to press in and know God. It seems the better I know him, the more convinced I am that he wants to heal people. God is the Healer, so he heals, and His people take after him. I don’t fully “get” the trinity concept either. There is the Father, there is Jesus, and there is the Holy Spirit, but how “seperate” are they? Jesus isn’t just a man. The Bible makes that very clear. There is one God and Father of all. The Bible does seem to talk about Jesus as the firstborn of many brothers and sisters. It’s not like there are 3 Gods or something. How about this? There is God, His Living Word Jesus Christ, and His Omnipresence in the Holy Spirit? HELP!
Comment by: jim
8Mike is this what you mean (what Karen said above) when you think of being like Jesus
Comment by: Helen
9Mike wrote:
Mike, actually, I think it’s possible without departing from orthodoxy, to believe that Jesus relied on the Holy Spirit when he was on earth, and that’s how he did miracles. It doesn’t mean he was any less God. But it does make him more of a role-model for Christians, in a sense, if he chose to rely on the Holy Spirit like Christians need to, to do miracles.
I was involved in a discussion on this just last week on another blog.
Comment by: Helen
10Karen wrote:
It’s mine too, Karen!
Comment by: Eliza
11Karen - what a really interesting idea of what church could look like! Can you imagine how much that would shock people who are used to staid solemnity at church? :o
There may well be more than it seems - the “still waters running deep” if you will, whereas the rapids get the attention, including possibly being more likely to write letters to newspapers, or to have their letters published (or so it seems). But, look at the percentages below - they may help flesh out some idea of the percentages.
The recently-released Baylor Religion Survey is interesting - you can download the pdf from that link (it’s ~74 pages long). The researchers asked people who believed in God (overwhelmingly, Christians) about their views on God in terms of high v. low level of engagement with the world, and high v. low level of anger, & came up with what they call the “Four Gods”. Of the survey respondents,
The survey went on to ask about opinions and beliefs in a variety of arenas, and reported how people in each of the 4 categories responded - there were a few similarities (all valued helping those in need) but alot of differences (in religious, social, and political views) between the 4 groups.
In A Generous Orthodoxy (my current bedtime reading), Brian McLaren gives a handy-dandy (for me) chart of “type of Christian” and “focus” - with conservative protestants focused on Jesus’ death as release from human sin (I’m paraphrasing), and liberal protestants focused on Jesus’ life and teachings as inspiration for compassion and social justice. (Soon thereafter comes his chapter “Would Jesus Be a Christian?” - that is, if Jesus were on earth as a human today.)
So, maybe this is obvious to everyone, but it would seem like those who view God as Authoritarian or Critical might have more basis for focusing on “right beliefs” & Jesus’ death (not life), whereas those who view God as Benevolent might have more freedom to focus on “right deeds” using Jesus’ life as an example. (I don’t know what those who view God as Distant might feel is more important - Distant seems kind of inconsistent with Christianity, but maybe I’m missing something. It’s possible those folks were more likely to be Jewish…)
Springboard to a related question that’s bugging me: what does it mean that Christians are fairly evenly split in the Baylor study between 2 or more views of God which seem (as far as I can tell) pretty inconsistent with each other? (In my most “outside the box” moments, I have to wonder whether they’re talking about the same God, but I suspect that most others here will find that idea preposterous…)
Comment by: Paul
12I guess what I’m hearing is that whether its more falling on the floor saying adios to a demon or just being able to kick back and be yourself in some honest conversations where you’re accepted, loved and encouraged - church should just be a more messy place?
It’s interesting what constitutes a safe place - do i think Jesus was really that safe? No one knew exactly what apple cart he was going to upset next… so what do folks mean when we talk about safety in church?
The Qs about how Jesus did what he did are really great - it’s a bit of a mystery cos it’s not like the bible gives a checklist of what jesus went through when he did a miracle. The bible gives hints,some of which are quoted above - the power of the spirit being on him, of being inside his Father’s will - and yet fully human as well. My mind doesn’t cope very well with that, its like i want to go to either extreme - but somehow Jesus was both and demonstrated humanity and divinity in a way that to me suggests much about God and also much about what humans are meant to be as well…
Comment by: Paul
13Is a great Q - sometimes I often wonder the same thing, how can that person claim to follow the same Jesus I did - did they skip the whole love 101 class (well i can’t talk i still haven’t graduated outta that one!).
Then again a lot of Jesus seemed to be about loving the unloveable so maybe he knew what he was talking about when he said that by christians love for each other the love of God would be revealed - love for me is not about some acceptance, if you love someone you tell them when they are being an arsehole, although i guess it would be using a more constructive tone… I think lovei s actually deciding not to just tell and run but to stick around and help out, for me to open up to be helped out as much as wanting to help someone else…
Maybe that is why we get a quad view of God - people emphasising different aspects of the divine - and what we focus on determines what me miss - it is easy to read say the bible and just focus on an angry God or read the bible and focus on a loving God, or a God who is always nagging and on the verge of giving up - and ignore the other parts of God.
It is much harder to try and weave the strands together to try and have some composite glimpses of God, to be caught in the tensions of the middle rather than the ease of the extremes, to try and tell the full story of God rather than selected tales…
Comment by: Mike O
14Believers today also do miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, following in the footsteps of Jesus, to communicate God’s character. I want so much to press in and know God. It seems the better I know him, the more convinced I am that he wants to heal people.
Mike is this what you mean (what Karen said above) when you think of being like Jesus
It can be.
The Bible lists the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, it is clear that the gifts Karen talks about are given by God. Some would say they aren’t for today, but I happen to believe they are. And from the sound of it, I’m sure Karen would agree. Except for speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues, Jesus did all of these.
The Bible also lists fruits of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-23.
IMO Karen appears to be more attuned to the gifts of the Spirit and Jim would be more attuned to fruits … at least for this conversation.
IMO, the gifts of the spirit list spiritual things a Christian can do through the power of the Holy Spirit, while the fruits of the spirit list the characteristics of what a Christian should be like through the power of the Holy Spirit.
They should go hand in hand, but in our humanness we typically focus on one at the expense of the other.
I have just a little more to say in the next post … I’m trying to keep it brief because I blab too much.
Comment by: Mike O
15There are two relationships on the table here, the relationship between a Christian and God, and the relationship between a Christian and others. The way I see it, when a person pursues a tight relationship with God, the gifts tend to increase. When a person persues tight relationships with others, the fruits tend to increase.
The hard part is maintaining both.
I have a pentecostal background, and am still in it today. My experience has been that churches that pursue the gifts such as healing, prophecy, etc. (relationship with God) tend to not not interact very well with the community (relationship with others). And churches that pursue the fruit such as love, joy, peace, etc. (relationship with others) tend to interact better with others, but often at the expense of a powerful relationship with God.
It needs to be balanced. IMO Christians that have gifts and no fruit are wierd and often lack character. And Christians that have fruit but lack gifts are weak and missing out on a dimension that God does have for them.
There is a time and a place for both. IMO, manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit should be reserved for special services where people know what they’re getting in to … they are real and powerful, but quite scary for the people who don’t understand them. And the typical Sunday morning service should be focused on the fruit, because this is where you will tend to interact with others. And I happen to believe that if you focus on the fruit, the gifts will come … if we don’t squelch them, which we usually do. Other great Christians may see it differently. Karen, I don’t mean to rip on anything you have said … I’m for it. I’m just describing the flavor of Christianity I happen to fourish in.
Comment by: Helen
16Paul wrote:
Paul, I can tell you what the concept of ’safety in church’ means to me. It means people have let go of the fears which, if not let go of, cause them to do the following sorts of things:
1) play communication games instead of being honest
2) blame others instead of owning their own issues
3) hide who they really are
4) be over-controlling
5) invalidate others
Safety in church doesn’t mean things have to be predictable or people can’t express their feelings. Safe can be messy - in fact it probably should be messy. Lots of people are probably spiritually starving because church isn’t allowed to be messy. People’s real lives are messy. If church can’t be messy then how can it be real? And if it can’t be real how can it be helpful?
Comment by: Paul
17Thanks Helen, I appreaciate the clarification of what safety means for you
For me I like the image of controlled explosions… things still go bang and get messy but people don’t get blown up at the same time too :)
Comment by: Helen
18Mike, those are great responses to Jim’s question!
I don’t know for sure, but I’m guessing Karen would agree and the reason she brings up the gifts is because she believes exercising them will produce more fruit.
(’Gifts’, ‘fruit’ - yikes, I’m talking in Christianese…)
Comment by: Mike O
19Commmmme to the light siiiiide, Helen! BWAAAA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!
Comment by: Helen
20Noooooooo don’t tempt me Mike!!! Must resist!!!
Comment by: Paul
21so really christians are people who like receiving fruit cakes from the Spirit?
Comment by: Helen
22Paul, do you remember that UK ad “Everyone’s a fruit and nut cake…”? (Or am I revealing my age too much by asking that? ;-))
Comment by: Mike O
23so really christians are people who like receiving fruit cakes from the Spirit?
Well, that is a gift you could pass along to someone else. What verse did you find that one in?
Comment by: Paul
24Helen - sorry no, altho i do really like fruit and nut chocolate!
Mike 0 - It was the 13 corinthians - v1-18 headed the holy fruitcake, where Paul sets out his recipes of the spirit :)
Comment by: David H
25I don’t mean to downplay the gifts of the spirit. But my caution with them isn’t just that I have seen them abused. When I read 1 Cor. 12, it doesn’t seem clear to me that the more demonstrative gifts are imperative for Christians.
Paul says all believers get some gift of the spirit (v7), but those gifts range from the fairly loud (tongues) to some that are a bit quieter (faith, helping, wisdom). He also charges believers to not think more or less of those who have any of those gifts. They are all different parts of one body.
But perhaps more significant is the transition from chapter 12 to 13.
The NIV translates 12:31 as saying Christians should eagerly desire the “greater gifts.” Then it says: “Now I will show you the most excellent way.”
Every Christian may be granted a different gift, at the will of the Holy Spirit. But every Christian must have love, because without it all of the gifts are a sham.
I do believe in the gifts of the spirit. I have heard prophecy, seen healing, been blessed by Christian helpers and led by those whose wisdom could only come from God. But while Paul’s body analogy says some may be the mouth, others could be the hands hands and still others may be the mind, he also makes it clear that all Christians must be part of the heart.
In other words, without love the fruitcake falls flat.
Comment by: Helen
26David, that’s why my own personal website is called “Love is the most excellent way”.
Comment by: David H
27On the issue of making chuch a safe place, my feeling is that many churches try to do exactly that. The issue is who are they trying to make the church safe for?
I grew up in churches that put their greatest effort into making things safe for the people who regularly attended — those considered inside the walls. Doctrine and ethos were geared toward keeping out any who might rock the boat.
The church I attend now seems more intent on being a safe environment for outsiders, because they can find moral advice and judgement in many places — but here, within these walls, with this group of people, they can find acceptance first.
That kind of love can be dangerous in many ways. And such acceptance doesn’t mean the “believers” are at all wishy-washy about their faith. It allows for the “outsider” to ask any question and the insider to admit any failure. And it permits all to be challenged to own and live what they believe.
Having spent some time in therapy, I would liken it to that in many ways. Only it isn’t always clear who is the doctor and whom the patient (at least among the people in the pews).
I heard an interview on the radio today. The host of the show was speaking with a comic who was or had been a regular on the Howard Stern show. Just as I passed the channel, I heard the host say that comedy is much like therapy — in that you are always talking about your problems and the things that bother you. The interviewee agreed, but added that the difference was in comedy (and especially in his Stern job) you tend to cling to the problems because they make you funny. While in therapy you are challenged to do something about your issues.
I don’t want to attend a comedy club church where people cling to their issues because that feels safe or makes them what they are. I’d rather attend a therapeautic church where everyting is open to challenge and everyone is open to growth. The safety I find there is in fellowship with a community of people who don’t make their brokeness a bulwark against outsiders.
Comment by: NCxian
28David: I love the therapy analogy, and particularly about how it differs from comedy in that you try not to cling to your problems. And that church should not be like comedy either–should not facilitate our clinging to our problems. I think that is one of the most difficult things in my (middle-class, middle-of-the-road) church. People tend to confess their problems–”I work too much and neglect my loved ones”, “I like my things too much”, “I talk about getting to know people who are different from me but my lifestyle doesn’t allow it”. But our response tends to be, “don’t we all” period. Instead of “don’t we all, let’s fix it together”.
Comment by: Helen
29NCxian wrote:
Excellent point - being ‘honest’ with each other doesn’t actually make us more likely to change if all we do is nod our heads in sympathy.
I do think that’s the best place to start so that people who are honest don’t wish they hadn’t said anything and retreat back into their shell.
But if we can then go the next step and encourage each other to be brave and work on what needs work, that’s best of all. imo.
Comment by: Mike O
30David, I liked your question, “The issue is who are they trying to make the church safe for?” The church I attend, our desire is to be a safe place for outsiders. But our history shows that we really are still a safe place for regular attenders. We’re making the change, but it’s interesting how certain decisions evoke the question, “how would so-and-so react?” We’re still doing the things regardless of so-and-so, but it’s still a hurdle to overcome.
Just tonight I found out that our youth pastor (the sr. Pastor’s son) has a tattoo and had several ear piercings. I said, “Cool! Get them back, the kids will love it.” But the response was that the parents (the ‘regulars’) wouldn’t like that.
OK, so we’re not there yet, but it’s coming. Baby steps.
Comment by: Rachel
31I agree, Mike. The thing I loved so much about “A Generous Orthodoxy” was how McLaren seeks to do exactly that.
Comment by: David H
32From my youth it has often felt like many Christians see the offering as dues to an exclusive club. They act like owners — rather snooty ones — rather than invited guests who didn’t deserve their invitation any more than anyone else. What I hope for in a church is the sense that no one has a right to be there, but everyone belongs.
Comment by: Jesse
33I’m with you, David. I’ve just gone through a church upheaval and one of the main issues was the very thing you spoke of: members acting like owners.
Safety is a spirit-killer. It sucks the life out of everything. Christians are much too averse to risk, and I think that’s why they “don’t get it”.
Many seem to be interested in protecting their “investment”. I have a friend who says this is sometimes a characteristic of older generations who have not had the luxury (and credit!) that exists today.
Ah, good intentions…
Comment by: Helen
34Thanks for your comment, Jesse. Sorry to hear about your church upheaval. I hope you see some good come out of what I imagine has been a painful, difficult experience for all involved.
Comment by: Pete
35Personally I don’t think this is a new question at all. We’ve never had it; Not in the desert with Moses; Not as the nations of Israel and Judah; Not when Jesus came to earth and not much since then either. humans and the “select few” have always been too stupid to realize that God wants nothing more than our companionship with him in life.
And in a culture driven by results like we have in America, we almost never appreicate things for what they ARE, we only care about the end result. Because of this, we have a hard time valuing God (and by extension, people) for what they are. Instead we value what they do.
So then what happens when you have a God who wants nothing more than to just be with you and you’re looking for something conrete and tangible to measure your relationship by?
You make it up. You DO with God instead of being with God. And when your efforts fall woefully short (because God doesn’t want DOing in the first place) it’s obvious to you and everyone else.
That’s the breaking point. From there you either change and find the truth, or you keep practicing those things and lie about the comfort they give you or find comfort in them rather than God.
My 2 cents anyways.
Comment by: Helen
36Pete, thanks for your comment. I have a couple of questions:
1)How exactly do you find ‘comfort in God’? Could you elaborate?
2) When you said “God doesn’t want DOing” did you really mean that? Isn’t the Bible full of instructions about what we should be doing?
Comment by: David H
37I largely agree with this, but I would put it a different way. The problem with relationships between people and with God is that they are often based on the expectation of what that person (or celestial being) can do for you. The rich don’t care about the poor, because there is little they believe the poor can do for them. Americans only care about people in other nations if there is a belief that those people can do something for us. Many who don’t believe in God base their lack of belief on the premise that he has done nothing for them and is unlikely to in the near future. The flip side, many Christians have their entire idea of God wrapped up in what they can expect him to do for them (blessings, riches, healing, straighten out life, etc.).
The difficulty in finding value in others and God is that the value may not be based on a tangible quid pro quo. Neither people nor the supreme being may have anything that I think I want them to give me. As for God, I’m not sure he absolutely promises anywhere that he will do more than give us our needs (not necessarily our wants).
Thus the issue shouldn’t necessarily be can I do anything for “others” or vice a versa. Perhaps the question needs to be, can I change my value system so I can see worth in those who might appear worthless in human terms? Maybe if I can love them for what they are, not what I want them to be or for what they can give me, that will change the relationship from one based on transactions to one based on fellowhsip. It might not work for national domestic or foreign policy, but I believe that is close to what Jesus asks of his followers.