Posted by Eliza on: 09.21.2006 /
I’ve heard the term “respect for God’s creation” a number of times, but until recently, I don’t think I’d heard anyone talk about “respect for God.” That phrase came up at the end of a videotaped lecture I watched this week by Ken Miller, a Catholic biologist. In the question-and-answer session, he was asked how he reconciled his scientific beliefs (in evolution, and against intelligent design) with his religious beliefs. He said that he took the position on this issue that he felt was more respectful of God. It was clear in how Ken Miller spoke about it that he meant “respecting God” not “respecting God’s creation” — he was referring to God’s ability to plan and design, not just the end result of God’s designs. That’s his belief – I mention it because it seemed like an interesting and (to me, at least) different way to develop and talk about beliefs, for those with religion.
Looking into respect for God as expressed in other religions, I found the Wikipedia page on headgear, which says (italics added): “In the Jewish tradition, [covering the head]…shows respect for the superior authority of God. Wearing a kippah or yarmulke means the wearer is acknowledging the vast gulf of power, wisdom, and authority that separates God from mankind. It is a sign of humility to wear a yarmulke.” That page also mentions kneeling or bowing as a way of acknowledging the power difference between two parties (and, thus, a way of showing respect).
I tried searching “respect” at an online Bible site. Most of the results were about people respecting or not respecting each other. (A few turned up the phrase “with respect to.”) Isaiah 5:12 decries those who have “no respect for the work of His hands” – again, respect for God’s creation. The only verse that seemed to get to respect for God was this:
Malachi 1:6 “A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If I am a father, where is the honor due me? If I am a master, where is the respect due me?” says the Lord Almighty. “It is you, O priests, who show contempt for my name. But you ask, ‘How have we shown contempt for your name?’ (Malachi 1:7 begins His response: “You place defiled food on my altar…”)
Comment by: Helen
1Interesting topic, Eliza!
I think there’s a linguistic issue here – the expression used in the Bible which Christians understand to mean, respect God, is ‘fear God’. Here are some searches on that or related expressions on Bible Gateway (I find this to be a very helpful resource when looking for something specific in the Bible):
A little bit of fear of a person – what they have power to do to us, say, like a boss who could fire us – can motivate us to work harder. Too much fear has us sitting at our desks, paralyzed, afraid to do anything in case we get it wrong.
Christians understand ‘fear of God’ to be an appropriate respect that causes them to take what God wants (as best they understand that) seriously. Not as a paralyzing fear.
I’ve seen some Christians criticize other Christians for not showing enough fear/respect of God – as evidenced by those other Christians doing things like using overly-familiar language with/about God or not bothering to dress up for church.
To me those are relatively superficial things. It seems to me that the best way to respect God (if God exists) is to do things like: live the best life I can, make the most of my life; respect the people and the world around me which he created; try to MTWABP (make the world a better place).
Like most other things, I can say I respect God, but the way I live my life is what shows whether I really do or not.
Comment by: Helen
2One other thing – I think Christians often find it hard to read sites like atheist discussion boards (like IIDB) because of the lack of respect for God in those places. It doesn’t surprise me that atheists make fun of God but Christians often find that deeply offensive and hard to read.
I think dialog between atheists and Christians would go better if Christians could learn how not to be offended on God’s behalf but to let God fight his own battles if he is being made fun of. If he’s all-knowing he already knows it’s happening and if he’s all-powerful then he is perfectly capable of responding however he wishes to the insults.
Imo, it complicates everything when we take offense on someone else’s behalf.
Comment by: Julie Marie
3Wow, Helen, you articulated just the issue I had to overcome in order to continue participating and enjoying the DB here – and the As on the DB were really not all that disrespctful, as I think back over it.
Fundamentalism seems to breed very thin skin. I was outraged on Gods behalf when the DaVinci code came out (I’ve since gotten over that, but it was my first reaction).
Right now respecting God means doing the best I can to get to the heart of what he wants from me and do it. Its been expressed here lately by my shedding ideas and traditions that I now believe are irrelevant and/or obstructive and forcing the rusty gates of my “spiritual mind” open.
Respecting Gods creation, is, to me, caring for others, the environment, and its creatures.
I am in transition re: how I show respect for others. Formerly, I showed respect by not being confrontational, seeking to be kind and understanding, rising above irritations…which is all still valid, but I’m afraid that in doing the above, I lost track of my honest reactions and opinions – they all got run through the “proper Christian behavior” filter.
So, while I have not turned into one of those people who feel it necessary to let everyone know exactly what they think at any given moment, I am striving to at least own the internal reactions and work from there on applying the patience, gentleness, and self control in an effort to understand others. Frequently on the DB when I am irritated, it is because a question has been raised that I haven’t thought out thoroughly for myself, and the person raising the question is making a good case for their POV, as compared to what I have been taught. I think respecting God and others also means a willingness to rethink my position.
Comment by: Helen
4Julie Marie wrote:
Exactly.
Which is ridiculous because how can Christians truly think they’re capable of being out there serving and helping other people if they’re too sensitive to be around other people saying the sorts of things other people really say?
(I’m not saying all Christians are this sensitive – but I have witnessed at least one Christian visit IIDB briefly then return to their own safe Christian db in a cloud of self-righteous indignation to tell all their friends what a depraved God-dissing place it was)
LOL
Can you imagine Jesus saying “Wow, you were ‘outraged for God’ over the Da Vinci code? Well done my good and faithful servant!”
I have a hard time imagining that ;-)
I’ve been there & done that; imo what you were doing formerly lacked balance because the way you tried to show respect to others was at the expense of respecting yourself.
Interesting – I like that!
Comment by: Julie Marie
5ROTFL!!!
Comment by: Keith
6Helen,
I agree with you. God can take care of himself. A Christian needs to be tough enough to hear someone question all sorts of things about the Lord. However, when the conversation moves from questions/observations about God to derogatory or mocking comments, it becomes pretty hard to swallow. I understand why some Christians would run from such conversation, and I don’t necessarily agree that they are wrong to do so. Let me try to give an example of what it feels like (regardless of if this is what it is).
My father is a fantastic, imperfect man. I know his strengths and his faults and have many times in my life come to realize how his faults end up being strengths in certain situations. My dad is not Donald Trump when it comes to making money. He is a farmer who works his rear end off, but has had his share of smart business decisions and dumb business decisions. If someone were to say, “your father is a bad businessman,” it would aggravate me a great deal, but I would recognize that someone could hold that belief (they’re wrong IMO, but I understand how they can think that). In this situation it would still be hard to listen to that kind of talk. However, if someone were to say, “your father is a dishonest businessman,” I would have zero tolerance for that. Not only is it negative, but it is not true. I would confront the person, and if they continued, I would probably not listen to them again.
Many of us Christians don’t just believe in God as intellectual assent, we have a relationship with him (or mistakenly think we do). Regardless of whether we tough our way through it or not, it is harder to listen to negative comments about your Father than the same comments about an idea you’ve had. Let’s cut some of these Christians some slack. My Father can take care of himself, and can handle questions and insults well. But it’s okay if a few Christians out there don’t want to witness it first hand.
Comment by: Eliza
7I realized after posting this topic that I did give it a pretty theoretical flavor. Since I don’t feel a relationship with God (don’t feel/see evidence that leads me to believe he/she/it exists), for me it is something of an intellectual exercise, to imagine what it must be like to have such a relationship, & how one thinks about it and acts upon it. But even though I’m an atheist, this does seem like a practical, real-life question – it certainly is for Cs, and understanding how Cs think about and act toward God (and other people) is useful for me. Thanks, Keith, for bringing in the example of your father, and how respect can mean accepting someone for who they are.
Like in Keith’s example, it seems that maybe we get to know what respect is, and disrespect, and what we think is appropriate and inappropriate in regards to respect, from our interactions with other people. Disrespect seems to trigger our “unfair!” alarms, stemming from our sense of empathy for others perhaps, as in your example. But maybe for some people it’s more a matter of explicitly learned behavior, like etiquette – keeping up external appearances of polite behavior? I would not expect that to be true regarding “respect for God” – since nothing is hidden from him. (That’s just a guess…)
Helen, thanks for pointing out “fear” as an alternatve term for “respect”, & the one used much more in the Bible & among Cs.
Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t equate “fear” and “respect”. I see “fear” as bringing about resentment and obedience but not respect. “Respect” to me means “appreciation” or “esteem”. Also, though, I don’t know whether “fear” was simply the understanding of the emotion thousands of years ago, or whether the words for “fearing” in Hebrew and Greek can mean “aware of his great power” rather than “scared of him” (the way I interpret “fear”).
Maybe this is another example of “Christian-ese” – “fear” meaning “respect” to Cs but not to non-Cs! Maybe so, because the way Ken Miller used “respect” in his comment seemed so clearly different from “fear” that it really grabbed my attention – he used it to mean “admire”, which seems so far from “fear” to me…
Comment by: Helen
8Eliza wrote:
I don’t know either!
Comment by: Keith
9Eliza,
In my experience, your suggestion here is accurate. “Fear” is Christianeze for respect/admire … at least this has been functioning definition when I have heard the idea.
Comment by: Helen
10Keith wrote:
But Keith, what if the other person had a reason to say he thinks your father is dishonest? What if he believes he has evidence? Would you refuse to look at it simply because the concept of your father being dishonest is ‘insulting’?
If he has no evidence then certainly, you can ask him to stop saying it and if he doesn’t, stop listening.
But if he says he has evidence, wouldn’t it be reasonable to at least look at it?
Keith, I think Christians get plenty of slack already from each other.
If Christians are saying “I can’t talk to these people because they say nasty things about God that hurt my feelings” then what they are doing is making their feelings their number 1 priority, which I think is very self-centered. I usually do agree with you Keith and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts here. But I can’t agree that being that self-centered is “ok” for a Christian.
Comment by: Keith
11Helen,
I appreciate your response.
You said:
I agree. I was not clear enough. The point of my dual examples was to show that both comments would bother me, though only one would have evidence (there is evidence to suggest my father is not a good businessman – no offense if you read this, Dad :-)), while the other would have no evidence behind it (that my father is dishonest). So I agree with you that a person should not stop listening simply because something is insulting.
Helen,
We may be talking about different situations, but I can assure that Christians don’t get as much slack from one another as some might think. I believe strongly that dialogue is important and valuable (and hopefully my actions back up that statement). However, I don’t think every Christian has to be exactly like me on this. The high level of guilt among certain Christian circles is precisely becuase Christians don’t get enough slack from one another.
You said,
I agree that being self-centered is not “ok” for a Christian. However, I don’t think a Christian who chooses not to dialogue in this way is being self-centered. While an atheist is having a conversation involving two parties – the atheist and the Christian … the Christian is having (truly or delusionally) a conversation with three parties – the atheist, the Christian, and God. So, when the Christian decides to say, “that’s enough,” they are not necessarily doing it for their own purposes, but because they care about that 3rd party – God. Much like if you were at a party with a friend who is gay, and someone begins making comments / asking questions in a way they would not if they knew your friend was gay. Your reaction might appear snobbish/selfish to the person making commments, but would in fact be a selfless act in support of your friend who is gay.
Thanks for the feedback, Helen. I have much respect for you, and appreciate your thoughts on this. I look forward to your response, and hope mine are clear and reflect the friendly tone in which they were written. :-)
Comment by: Helen
12Keith wrote:
Keith, I understand exactly what you’re saying, in general. There are lots of areas in which I’d love to see Christians give each other more slack.
However, regarding this specific issue, a) I’ve never heard a Christian criticize another Christian for being overly sensitive about hearing God insulted so I think the slack is being given and b) I would rather they didn’t have slack on this particular issue.
But if your friend is standing right there then why not let your friend say, if your friend is uncomfortable? And if your friend says nothing then I think it would be unreasonable of your friend to expect you to speak up, wouldn’t it?
Anyway, how do we know God isn’t thinking this:
Christian: God, I couldn’t talk to that person anymore, they were being so rude about you!
God: But I wanted you to talk to him. I wanted you to be kind to him. Now he’s going to think I’m all touchy and sensitive, just like you…
Of course God would forgive the Christian…but that doesn’t mean it was ok or that God would like the Christian to do the same thing next time.
Anyway…Keith I respect you very much too – maybe we simply aren’t going to see this the same way.
Maybe I was bothered at first by the way God was mocked and insulted on IIDB – I can’t remember – I quite possibly was. What I do know is that it doesn’t bother me at all these days and it seems rather unfortunate to me that (some? many?) Christians let something like this get in the way of them pursuing dialog with atheists.
Comment by: Paul
13Those crazy hebrews, fearing God, didn’t they know about that nice cuddly Jesus, all forgiving n loving and stuff, lol.
But then again I guess those hebrews lived a differnt dynamic surrounded by other cultures with their own Gods – a God that you saw/experience fight your battles and was tied up intimately with the success of your nation over your neighbours and yet you had no hold/control over him – he was God you were his people – meant i guess lead to a certain about of fear/awe/respect :)
One of my fave stories to illustrate that is this one of God’s spokesman Elijah vs the 400 prophets of another god Baal, anywho it has some great sarcasm in it…
For me though, Ok I guess there is a danger that I make God in my own image, have him as my personal bless me, justify me, give me what i want genie/santa claus – that doesn’t reflect God in the slightest. On the other hand I could have a spank me God which means i live a life of gibbering fear and guilt…
That’s the thing God is so many things – so I respect him, mostly I respect him as he for the way he lived here, loves here and his desire to transform even events like death –
i respect God enough to say ok I want to join with you and do that too, to admit that I cannot do it on my own steam or my own agenda, even though i often try.
I respect God enough to struggle and question and searching, to admit I am a pretty selfish kinda guy at heart and a pretty ignorant one too – ok at least I’m pretty
I respect God to see in Jesus someone who wept, who experienced pain, suffering, betrayal and instead of doing what I so often do, instead rans straight into it and embraced it, who shows me that I can to.
I respect God by taking his challenge seriously to love people – something that isn’t the same as expecting people to love me back, agree with me or even think i’m a lucid rationale being – that’s not the point God loves us regardless of what we think of him – i’m cool with that.
I respect God enough to take him seriously that we all have inate value, that we should care for the sick, the poor, the outcasts, that I should stop being so such a self obessessed consumerist and care for the people and the plant on which I live more than i care about myself
I respect God enought to admit that just wishing what I said was half true is enough for him ro credit me with having faith in him.
I respect God enough to ask him if he is there? If he is real? Why there is so much crap in the world? And why am I throwing the best years of my life away for someome who might not exist
I respect God enought to admit there are plenty of people who do exist that do get to benefit from love, hope, healing, forgiveness, commitment, acceptance, grace, mercy and generousity to make it a life worth living even if he isn’t real – those things that he talks and spends so much of his time doing are very real…
Comment by: Keith
14Helen wrote,
You make a good distinction between general slack and slack on this issue. I don’t know if I have ever heard a Christian criticized for it before either. Good point.
Thanks for these comments. Let me respond to a couple of things personally. I don’t think that a person stands up for their friend because the friend expects them to – we do it because we think our friend deserves better (or something like that).
I especially appreciated your dialogue between God and the Christian. I agree that God would forgive and that he might forgive while still wanting the Christian to handle it different next time.
However, this one statement resonated with me, “Now he’s going to think I’m all touchy and sensitive, just like you.” I know that Christians feel this pressure to be like God in all of their interactions, but a person has to give up on that or they will go crazy. I’m not God, and I’m not a lot like Him. And if I put pressure on myself to handle each situation just like God, than I am going to be dissatisfied a lot. For better or worse, I’m a Christian because I know who God is (IMO, of course), not because I am Him. I try to establish borders. Mark out a territory and explore it. That’s why there are times when, IMO, it’s okay for a Christian to say, “that’s enough.” I will explore, but I will not do that. I will listen, but I will not listen to that. Personally, I don’t think that surprises or disappoints God. I have had times where I drew lines with Shortstop or with TX or others. Where I confronted each of them on something that just went farther on one end of the spectrum than I wanted to explore. Was it perfect? No. Is God forgiving me for the mistakes involved? Sure. Does He want me to handle it differently next time? There is no next time. That’s why it is important to allow Christians and atheists room to grow … room to leave the discussion and return … room to say, “that’s far enough,” and room to say, “let’s explore that some more.”
Thank you, Helen, for being so willing to explore thoughts together. I am a better man because of you and the others here who are willing to explore. But we need not suggest that the path that I or other Christians here have chosen is the only one that is faithful to God.
One of the things I will not do is to throw close-eared fundies under the bus. Though we are not exactly alike, they are my brothers and sisters.
Helen, you said that it is unfortunate that some let this get in the way of dialogue. I agree and greatly appreciate the use of the word, “unfortunate.” Thanks. Much of what I have said in this long post is less in reaction to your post, and more an expression of something I have been thinking about. Would love to hear your thoughts and anyone else’s as well.
Comment by: Helen
15I maybe should have written the ‘touchy and sensitive remark’ in a less extreme way.
On the other hand, the Bible is full of commands so you could equally well argue that it’s unreasonable and demanding and makes Christians feel guilty.
My remark was intended in the context in which God has goals ofr Christians but they stand in grace nevertheless. As are all Biblical commands.
I have no problem with this – I think it’s a different issue. I think this about being a wise steward and deciding “pursuing this further is not a wise use of my time”.
I’m not saying that we MUST respond to everyone regardless of what other demands on our time we have.
What I’m saying is – I don’t think “I don’t like it when you talk about God like people who don’t believe in God talk about God” is a good reason not to have dialog with someone who doesn’t believe in God. I don’t see that it would really stand up before God even though I suspect many Christians assume that sensitivity on God’s behalf pleases him.
I think maybe you disagree with me on that particular point. If so I can agree to disagree.
Comment by: Keith
16Helen,
I agree with much of what you posted, and appreciate your willingness to be a soundingboard on this. Thanks. I agree that I’m probably talking about a different issue. And I am in agreement that more more dialogue is better than less … thanks as always, Helen
Comment by: David H
17A Greek lexicon says the word most commonly used for fear in the earliest translations is Phobeo. Among the common definitions of that word is “to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience.”
An English word that might be closer to the intended scriptural meaning is “awe.” However, that word also has a nuanced definition that can include amazement, inability to understand, acknowledgement of power, and fear (as in I’m really scared).
From an Old Testament standpoint actual fear would seem a warranted understanding of the term. Even if some of the harsher laws are discounted, along with the order for genocide against the Philistines, one must still factor in that some of God’s emissaries could be pretty rough — the kings in particular. I’m not sure many Americans are able to understand fear in the context of a king who is an absolute ruler. However, if you live under the rule of someone who can order your death with a word, then a degree of concern might be in order. How much more should be accorded a being who could do that with the entire universe at a whim?
As much as many modern Christians would like to downplay that aspect of God for the loving face shown by Jesus, I find it hard to forget. I believe it was C.S. Lewis who described God as The Other, a being who is alien from humanity in many respects. The God described in the Bible would have to be inhuman because he lives outside time and all the other physical laws that govern us. Moreover, he is able to hold in his “mind” everything that is, ever was and will be in this Universe. Finally, this God is said to hold the existence of all we know as a thought. If he ever stops thinking of us, then we cease. Such a being, good, bad or indifferent, should inspire some trepidation. As Lewis noted in “The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe,” no one should expect God to be a tame lion.
But if, in fact, this God is love — as Jesus said — that should inspire relief at the very least. But more about that in a second. I don’t want to get into how to reconcile the God of the Old Testament with the God of the New. That would be long, complicated and would most likely come off as full of rationalization. Yet if Jesus is to be believed, in both his words and his life, then we owe God reverence — honor, adoration, esteem — because he/she/it cares about us, he loves us.
How does that affect my responses to the original questions? Please keep in mind that I am answering from the standpoint of someone who believes in a loving God.
To answer the first question, respect for God should mean a lot more than my actions likely demonstrate. I’m not singling myself out, because the same would appear to be true of many Christians. Faced with an all powerful being who offers grace rather than being capricious or vindictive, I am not completely changed. I have read stories about people who pass through a near-death situation and become new people, valuing every day they have on earth and conveying that to others. Yet claiming to believe in something beyond that, I remain often uncaring towards others, frequently unloving even to those who are closest, and — in short — an essentially selfish human being.
Please pardon me quoting C.S. Lewis again, but I think he is absolutely right about the following:
Respect for God should mean more than it apparently does if I truly believe what I say. If I respected God’s authority — which I should since I swore allegiance to his son — then I would stop looking for ways to serve myself and I would be afraid to ever justify such a thing in my God’s name. Instead, I should look for ways to serve others, because if Jesus spoke truly, then love for God and love for others are inextricably linked.
The thing that is so difficult to tolerate with Christians is that so many of us — yes, I include myself — make a lie of what we claim to believe. But that isn’t the worst of it. Christians can get away with what we do wrong because we are forgiven. Yet the grace we are given we often don’t extend to others. How does that show respect for the giver of grace?
Comment by: David H
18Just a couple of other thoughts that struck me during my drive home.
I understand what Keith is saying about being offended when people say certain things. But the question that occurred was, has God asked for defenders of the faith? Or, through his son, did he ask for practitioners?
And although I’m not in the best position to understand how it feels when your father is insulted by people who don’t know him, that analogy also made me wonder. What is it about strangers insulting someone they have never met — that they don’t, in fact, even believe exists — that is upsetting? Are his children upset on his behalf or on their own? Let’s face it, most of what those strangers know about this father is from watching and listening to his children. So, in fact, much of the insult is toward the children. Now, if we are all perfect mirrors of this unseen father and people continue to insult us, then perhaps we have reason to take offense.
As for a response, I wondered if that isn’t also part of the issue. The Bible has many stories about God taking up his own cause against those who belittle him. Granted most are in the old testament, but there is something reassuring about a God who kicks butt on his own behalf. So the question that occurred was whether part of the problem for Christians is that we want God to answer the insulters? Shouldn’t he be ticked off enough to stand up for himself — and us, in the bargain?
But then the question that came to my mind was what are the options for believers who are offended by the insults and misguided opinions of those who do not believe? Must we choose between arguing or leaving? Is there a third option, to silently listen to those terrible things and determine how much is about us? Is it possible the another approach might be to humbly accept that if people see a judgemental, capricious, mean-spirited God that we — the followers of that God — are more than a little responsible for that? Should we accept that if people see little or no proof of a divinity that created the earth and loves all of its inhabitants that it is because we — his self-proclaimed disciples — haven’t shown them?
I know my desire is to stand up for what I believe or to turn my back on those against me. But Jesus showed a different and more difficult path. It was not a path of passivity when he was confronted by those who did not believe — he did not back down. But he specifically turned away from the traditional paths for addressing the many wrongs he was said to have faced.
In fact, the only records of Jesus directly confronting people were when the insult came from those who claimed to know God. If he fought, it was against “believers” who clothed themselves in fancy clothes of righteousness meant to hide what was unwashed underneath.
The final question that occurred to me was: What is more offensive, the insults of strangers or those of family members? Should I be more upset by the mistaken belief of someone who doesn’t know my father or those of the misguided brother or sister who is claiming to speak the truth only for selfish purposes?
Comment by: Eliza
19I hadn’t had disrespect toward God in mind when writing the original post here, but clearly that topic is striking chords here.
David H said:
I haven’t cruised the internet to see what non-believers are saying on various sites, but it seems to me there could be several different types of disrepectful comments about God or Christians – and different expectations for etiquette etc based on the setting. And, different expectations for what might come of interacting with people of different beliefs (and different ideas about the importance of showing respect!).
I’ve spent a little time on a skeptics’ board, & have seen Cs pop in from time to time with flowery Christian-ese apparently intended to “spread the word” to the heathens. Unfortunately, it’s not welcome, is typically impenetrable for non-Christians to read (after starting right off by presenting an assumption they don’t share). This type of post seems to invariably draw disrespectful responses, toward the C who posted it, and also sometimes toward Christianity and toward God. (I’m not sure what other kinds of discussions go down the “disrespect path” – haven’t seen that many.)
In on-line or real-life conversation, if someone is expressing his or her own doubts about God, albeit in strong language, it seems probably best to accept that commentary as that person’s beliefs & either let it be, or respond acknowledging their beliefs (perhaps even asking questions about how they came to their beliefs, or whether those beliefs have changed, or might change).
If someone is mocking God or Christians, I would think many Cs would choose to leave the conversation. Or, if someone is talking about God in terms that offend you, it may be helpful to simply and straightforwardly acknowledge that you believe in God and you find the comments or tone offensive; while you don’t expect them to share your beliefs, could they please respect you & your beliefs.
If someone is mocking Christians, it seems that could be an opening to listen, and maybe (if you feel it would be useful for you or for them) to calmly ask for more details, like what they would hope could happen differently.
I don’t know if it’s true, but it seems from what I’ve seen on the skeptics site I’ve read periodically that many people, though clearly not all, will stop mocking if they find out a believer they know to be level-headed and respectful is present in the conversation. Responses in Christianese, and those that tell them they are sinners, or will be damned for eternity, or are loved by Jesus, are likely to increase the mocking – it’s like 2 different languages are being spoken and on each go-around they hype each other up.
Depends what you mean by proof – those who don’t already see “proof” usually have a quite different idea of what such proof encompasses than those who do see it. If you mean proof of God’s existence, be prepared that unrequested attempts at persuasion may not be appreciated! If you mean modeling acceptance, kindness, and love, be prepared that non-believers may appreciate you as a really nice person, but not as an inspiration for them to re-examine their beliefs about God.
Comment by: Helen
20Eliza wrote:
Based on my experience, the respect shown to a Christian who starts posting on an atheist discussion board reflects the respect the Christian shows the atheists. If the Christian talks in Christianese and doesn’t listen then the Christian is likely to get criticized and mocked. If the Christian listens then they will be treated respectfully.
One function of an atheist discussion board is that it is a ‘safe haven’ where atheists can say whatever they like about God, who after all is no more than a concept to them – a concept which doesn’t exist in reality.
Most atheists are surrounded by Christians and feel it would be unwise to say what they really think about God most of the time. So they welcome opportunities where they can be completely honest about, say, how atrocious they find the God depicted in the Bible. And where they can even make fun of that God if they want to without messing up important relationships in their lives.
It is the sensitivity of Christians which creates a need for safe havens for atheists.
Most companies of any size who deal directly with people have customer service reps who are trained to deal with angry customers.
Why can’t we give this training to Christians?
How long do you think a customer service phone rep would keep his/her job if he/she responded to customers with “I’m going to have to hang up on you now – I will not listen to you saying such things about this company!!”
Christians are supposed to be God’s customer service reps but how can they be if they are too sensitive to handle complaints and lacking training in skills such as diffusing anger?
I know I’m repeating myself. I guess the bottom line of why this bothers me is that the way Christians ‘respect God’ often gets in the way of them being able to have the sorts of relationships with people who aren’t Christians which might help people who aren’t Christians respect them and/or God.
Comment by: Helen
21Paul wrote:
I really like this, Paul. Thanks for sharing!
Comment by: Helen
22David wrote:
I do think that how people see God is influenced by how Christians behave.
However, even if Christians were the nicest people in the world, there would still be a lot of people who consider God as portrayed in the Old Testament to be capricious, hot-tempered, unkind, vindictive…in short, not worthy of their respect. (See this letter, for example – which I found on Hemant’s blog, The Friendly Atheist) Christians who want to dialog with atheists about God need to be able to set aside their own issues with hearing God described this, in order to have a meaningful dialog. If all Christians can do is say “No, don’t say mean things about my God!” then no true dialog is going to be possible.
Comment by: David H
23I don’t believe there is any absolute empirical evidence available to prove God. However, if my life doesn’t reflect what I say I believe — either in the importance I accord that thing (i.e. if I believe God is, that should change me) or in the attributes I am told to reflect (i.e. love God, love others) — then I am certainly providing a counter-proof.
If non-believers simply see me as a really nice person, that would be a positive step. I don’t think that is the first thing that pops into the heads of many people when they hear someone described as a Christian (oh, he/she must be a really nice guy/girl!).
As for getting others to re-examine their beliefs, I’ll just say that modern evangelism may be too outcome-based. It often seems a quid pro quo deal that runs counter to the teachings of Jesus. In other words, I will do something for you because I want something from you. If I reach a point where I can no longer expect to get what I want (your conversion), then I will no longer do things for you.
I hold open the door for people — men and women — not because I want them to get saved or even hold the door for me. I do it because it is a nice thing to do. The person for whom I do it may not ever see me again and I will likely not know if that single act had any “effect” on their life. But that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t do it.
The same goes for helping the sick, feeding the hungry, etc. Sometimes those things can lead to relationships that will allow people on both sides to see if there is some kind outcome. But the trigger for making the effort shouldn’t be that I need for those people to get saved. I should help because a) they need help and b) I can help.
If there is a God, those who believe in him should trust he will handle the outcomes even if they don’t see them.
Comment by: Helen
24David H wrote:
I agree and to me, this is a great way to show respect for God.
Comment by: Karen
25David:
Don’t be so tough on yourself, David. As an atheist, it honestly hurts my heart to see how often Christians get so down on themselves for things that are absolutely natural, and I’m more and more convinced that this “guilty” mindset is harmful.
Think about it: If we weren’t naturally “selfish” (concerned with self-preservation), our species wouldn’t have been around for very long. Yes, it’s admirable to strive for altruism, but that has to be balanced with self-acceptance.
I have unfortunately come into contact with REALLY selfish people (the kind who cruelly exploit vulnerable folks 24/7 and don’t seem to lose a wink of sleep over it) and from what very little I can tell through anonymous postings, you aren’t one of them.
Comment by: David H
26Self-acceptance is something I’m a lot better at these days. I put away the self-flaggelation kit purchased from martinluther.com and have become well-practiced at forgiving myself.
But a thing that is supposed to separate the higher animals from the lower ones (e.g. humans vs. chimps) is the ability to choose not to be selfish.
Endless guilt serves no purpose, but the issue for those who say they believe in God/Afterlife/etc. is we should consider whether self-preservation at the expense of others is a worthy purpose.
Selfishness does seem to be a human condition. And I am human. Perfection is not my goal at this point in my life (I have given up on childish things). But I do want to contest my self-serving nature occasionally. That is the least I can do in service of what I say I believe.
Comment by: Karen
27David:
Good. I’m glad to hear that. :-)
Actually, there has been a lot of research that documents altruistic behavior in mammals – particularly primates, but even “lower” animals like mice, who were recently found to suffer emotionally when their cage-mates were in pain. So humans really aren’t so different, in evolutionary terms, from our closest relatives.
Primates care for each others’ offspring, sound alarm calls (at great danger to themselves) when predators are nearby, share food when it is scarce, and so forth. Here’s an interesting article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4766490.stm
Comment by: Paul
28Helen, i agree with you – I think us christians should spend a lot more time listening and a lot less time talking – especially if we’re stopping by at some one elses site…
There’s a ancient famous prayer by St Francis which is really inspiring me at the mo:
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy;
O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life
To me that is really gettin towards the heart of what being a christian, following Jesus. having respect for God and his creation is and is what i want to be about…
Comment by: Helen
29I like that prayer, Paul!
I’ve also heard this attributed to St. Francis: “Preach the gospel always and, if necessary, use words”.
Hey, I just found a site that says he didn’t really write that quote, or the prayer! However, it says they are both very Franciscan in spirit so – I guess it’s ok to honor him for having a spirit like this…
Comment by: Paul
30Well it was back in 1200 n something so guess we don’t have to be worried about being sued for copywrite ;)
Comment by: Ordinary Attempts - with Bruce Logue
31 10/1/06 4:09 PM | Comment Link |[...] This quote comes from David H. on a thread at CatE. I think it is applicable to Ordinary Attempts. Depends what you mean by proof – those who don’t already see “proof” usually have a quite different idea of what such proof encompasses than those who do see it. If you mean proof of God’s existence, be prepared that unrequested attempts at persuasion may not be appreciated! If you mean modeling acceptance, kindness, and love, be prepared that non-believers may appreciate you as a really nice person, but not as an inspiration for them to re-examine their beliefs about God. [...]
Comment by: Helen
32David, your comment #23 has been reposted by Bruce Logue here:
What do you mean by proof?