Posted by Helen on: 10.02.2006 /
Mike O has kindly agreed to be our seventh online interview candidate. (You can read all our online interviews here)
The purpose of this interview is to give you the opportunity to listen to Mike as he shares his thoughts and opinions with you.
If you want to discuss whether Mike’s views are correct, we invite you to do that here on the discussion board. Mike is welcome to participate in discussions there about his views if he wants to. If he doesn’t have the time or inclination that’s fine with us - we don’t consider doing so ‘part of the interview’.
I’d like to post more online interviews. If you’d like to send one in, you can find the instructions and questions here.
What screen name do you post under — so we know you when we see you?
Mike O
Would you like to share any of the following so we can know you better: your age range, whether you’re married or single, have children, what kind of work you do, what area of the U.S. (or other country) you live in?
I’m 43 and happily married for 22 years. We have one son, Zack, who is a senior this year at a small Christian school. I’m an Information Technology manager (computer programmers) at a UK-based company with their North American office here in Minneapolis. My wife is an associate pastor at our church. Suffice it to say, I don’t feel real comfortable at the pastor’s wives retreat!!
What do you like to do when you have some time to yourself?
I don’t understand the question. Seriously, my wife and I tend to be so busy that we don’t know what to do with spare time. I “make time’ for going to movies. I also like to go to entertaining concerts like STOMP and Blue Man Group. They’re cool. But “spare’ time? Are a few dull moments too much to ask??
Please share with us something you really enjoy about your life.
This is hard because I can’t think of anything I don’t enjoy about my life. I like how my life has gone and I have several good friends and one great love. I know that’s a sappy answer, but it’s true. I like to mess with people’s heads, though … that’s a lot of fun. Especially kids. I once paid my best friends daughter (about 11) to eat a whole jalapeno pepper for a dollar! Best dollar I ever spent. And I paid one of my son’s friends $5 do drink about ½ gallon of pickle juice in 5 minutes … all or nothing. If he didn’t finish he got NOTHING! He was almost done when he threw up into the jar. With about a minute to go, he proceeded to drink it AGAIN!!! That was the best $5 I ever spent. It was awesome! Although his dad wasn’t exactly thrilled with me that day. I love doing crap like that!
If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about you or your life, what would it be?
I would have waited to get married. I never lived on my own. I lived with my parents through college, got married during my senior year and moved in with my new wife. If I had to do it over again, I would take a year or more for myself. I’d still marry my wife, but I would be on my own for a time first. I feel like I missed something important.
How did you find Conversation at the Edge (or, the eBay atheist blog) and what drew you to post in the comments section?
My son, Zack had lived in entirely sheltered, Christian surroundings his entire life. Christian home. Christian school. Christian church and friends, my extended family is almost entirely Evangelical Christian. That was all he knew until he took a job at Godfathers (a pizza restaurant) and met people who — how shall I put this — don’t see things our way. I mean, I have friends in all walks of life, Christian and non-Christian alike, but Zack never had that opportunity. My wife and I have always had a heart for the unchurched and were always ones to provoke church people to be more approachable to the rest of the world. What I didn’t realize was how little I understood it myself!
The first time Zack said that church was pointless and a waste of time, we didn’t know what to do. That was about a year ago. We got his point, but we didn’t get his point really. He has maintained a good relationship with God, but his searching got me thinking. He was lout surfing spiritual things online, and one of the sites he was looking at had a link to Off-the-map. I stumbled across the link and started looking at the Lost Interviews and got hooked. Shortly thereafter I got involved in the four blogs.
Is this the first time you’ve participated in any online discussions on the internet? If not, could you share with us what other sorts of online discussions you like to participate in?
Yes. I’ve never done this before. I’ve done a couple of email things, and I’ve gone to ask-the-expert type sites, but nothing like this.
Has posting on Conversation at the Edge (or the eBay atheist blog) changed you in any way?
It has opened my eyes to how other people think. Not just how I think they think, but how they really think. Some of my suspicions have been verified. Others thrashed. For example, I always figured people who weren’t Christians had some kind of “internal struggle’ going on. That was a news flash to me. On the other hand I thought it would be as hard for me to make atheists believe in God as it would be for them to make me give up my belief in God. That one has turned out to be true.
Were you raised going to church and are you currently a church attender?
I’ve always been a regular attender.
What is your main reason for choosing to be a church attender/not to be a church attender at present?
I need it. As an Evangelical Christian, there are no other forces out there that will draw me towards God. I get strength from the church. I believe in the mission of the church (the real mission, not the made-up mission that too many Christians have today, which is little more than “go to church and correct everyone who doesn’t'). The real mission is that Jesus came to save the world, and now that he is gone he has empowered his followers to carry his message forward. I have come to the place where it’s not about going to church for me any more. It’s about following Christ. And it’s easier to follow Christ outside of church if I go to church. It’s a source of strength, stability and accountability for me. And it keeps me from getting whacked theology.
Apart from church are there any groups you participate in regularly for faith-based, social and/or self-improvement reasons?
I love to listen to preachers from other churches. I go online and download messages all the time from other preachers and pass them along to my pastor. Other than that, I must admit that involvement in other social and self-improvement activities is still a real weak area for me. But at least I see the value now.
Is there anything else (outside work and family) which you devote significant time to? Or used to, or hope to in the future? (We understand that for some of you, work and family takes up almost all your time at present)
Church. With my wife being on staff we tend to be real busy with it. Thankfully it’s not church “business” but rather church events. My purpose there is to help church people to morph a bit into something palatable to the rest of the world. We can do that without compromising our convictions but most of our church doesn’t even see the need to change. It’s a tough sell, not because people don’t think they should reach the community, but because they somehow think they already are. They think their Christmas programs and invite-a-friends and events on church turf are enough, but they’re not. We need to go OUT to the rest of the world and meet them there, on their turf, on their terms. Church people have a hard time wrapping their brains around that. We mean you no harm, we just don’t get it.
Has anyone ever called you a “fundy” or “fundamentalist”? Have you heard or read anything which tells you that some people talk about you like that behind your back?
I don’t know if anyone has ever called me that to my face, but yes, I know people think of me that way. It’s all relative … the people I work with and associate with outside of church aren’t Christian at all, so compared to them, I look like a fundamentalist. Really I’m just conservative Evangelical. But they don’t know the difference. Plus, I expect people think of me that way here at CatE and Atheist. But it doesn’t bother me because it’s relative. I know I come across as a fundamentalist.
How would you/do you feel about being called a “fundy” or “fundamentalist”?
It doesn’t bother me too much. Actually, it’s not that far from the truth. And it’s a conversation starter.
Are you aware of any assumptions or associations people make about “fundies” which don’t apply to you?
I told my wife about this interview and these “fundamentalist’ questions. I was going to answer this question by saying, “I’m the fundamentalist your mother warned you about,” but my wife told me I wasn’t. I’m sure she was thinking of the Pat Robertsons of the world. So I went out to wikipedia and looked it up. The definition is actually not that far off for me. My core beliefs match up, but the way I behave doesn’t — or at least it shouldn’t. According to Wikipedia, fundamentalists tend to be separatist in their beliefs and tend to be legalistic. They did quite a good writeup — fundamentalism is not as negative as the label applied to it here at CatE. Yes, there are negatives, but it’s not “all negative.’ You may not agree with it philosophically or theologically, but fundamentalism isn’t some great evil.
Where I differ from fundamentalists is in how what I believe plays out in my life. While I do believe that the Bible is inspired and authoritative in its entirety, I also believe that God’s grace covers our screw-ups. While I do believe that only Christians who have “accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior’ will go to heaven (I don’t mean that to be provocative … I’m just being honest), I don’t believe that we should separate ourselves from the world. While I do believe that, as a Christian, the goal is to be perfect and to follow the laws God set out, I also believe that I am horribly inept. And so are you. And on that matter we are the same, Christian or not. It’s only by God’s grace that God considers me a good follower of His. And the grace He shows me every day of my life MUST be shown to others! If I will not show grace to others, will he continue to show grace to me? Honestly, I think that answer is, “yes’ because there is nothing I can do to change the fact that God is a graceful, merciful God. But I just want to do for others what He has done for me. And this is where I differ from fundamentalists. I HAVE TO touch — OK, I’m going to say the bad word here — the lost. I have to associate with them, and live with them, and be friends with them. I have to be what Jesus was to them. It’s my calling.
How do you like to describe yourself regarding your beliefs?
Probably Conservative Evangelical Christian. I’m Pentecostal, but not weird about it. I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues, prophecy, healing, etc) and I personally pray in tongues on a daily basis. But I’m Scandinavian, so the Pentecostal-ness is muted quite a bit by my natural tendency to understate everything — never get excited. If the music is REALLY good, I might get a good sway on. I think I’m balanced in my approach. And I think I’m solid in my beliefs. I’ve questioned everything continuously for 43 years. Yes, it’s from the angle that what I believe is right. But I’ve never found convincing evidence to the contrary, so I’d say I’m pretty set in my beliefs.
What (else) would you like to tell the people who call you a “fundy” if you thought they were listening?
Look at what I wrote up a couple of questions … that pretty much sums it up.
And I’d ask them to lighten up. You’re not doing anyone any favors by being abrasive.
Do you own a Bible? Do you ever read the Bible or look anything up in it? If so, what is your main reason for doing so?
Yes, I have one and my wife has several. I try to read it daily, but lately you guys have been keeping me too busy, which is something I need to get back into balance. I tend to study things topically. Yes, I think it’s a valuable discipline to have daily devotions and read the Bible. But it’s not a chore for me. When it becomes a chore, I stop and do something else like pray more, or sing more or whatever. The desire to read comes back. But mostly, I’ve got some question I’m chewing on that I want to know what the Bible says about it. I try my best to not “go in’ with a pre-disposition to the answer I’m looking for, but I know that’s not entirely possible. But that’s the goal … to actually question what I think and see if it’s supportable by scripture.
Examples of things I’ve studied in depth are prosperity/health/wealth doctrines, the holy spirit — in particular speaking in tongues (In fact, this is one area where I’ve come to a different conclusion than my denomination. So bully for me on that!), the character of God, does God “do’ punishments (Calvinist) or merely “allow’ them? Here’s another one where I differ from my church, friends and even my wife … I’m not a Calvinist, but I have come to the conclusion that God actually does many of the punishments that happen.
The big question I’m chewing on right now is hell. I have a hard time with why God, who loves us all, would punish those who reject him with everlasting torment. I mean, even Hitler was only evil for 60 years or so. Is it just to punish him for billions of years? But even with that question rolling around in my brain, I do believe what I’ve been taught… I’m just in the process of questioning it.
As best you know, has anything in the Bible influenced you in a good way (directly or indirectly)?
Yes. I base my whole life on it, and I hope that’s good.
As best you know, has anything in the Bible influenced you in a negative way (directly or indirectly)?
No, I can’t think of any way the Bible could influence me negatively. Maybe I don’t get the question.
Has anyone expressed disapproval to you about your own personal opinion, or use, of the Bible? What would you like them to understand better about you and the Bible, were it possible?
I don’t think so. I’m not a bible banger, but I do know what it says and when asked, will say I think it teaches. But I try to be respectful so it usually goes well. Other than that, they may not agree with me, but I don’t think that’s the same as expressing “disapproval.’ I don’t require people to agree with me, and I think that somehow makes my opinions less abrasive. They can take “em or leave “em. I’m fine either way.
Is there anything I forgot to ask that you’d like to tell us?
I don’t think it’s wrong to have an opinion and stick by it. I think we try too hard here at Off The Map to get Christians to change who they are or what they believe, when really they just need to change how they act. We all have opinions, and if I want an atheist to listen to me, I need to listen to him. On the other hand, if the atheist wants me to be willing to change to accept some view, they need to be willing to do the same.
I know people won’t change their minds as a result of these discussion boards alone. I believe in God, and I believe every person has a spirit. These discussions are great, but they do not have the power to change the mind (and I’ll add heart) of a person who is convinced they are right. And I include myself in that. But the Spirit of God can speak softly to the spirit of man and maybe, just maybe, change will come from within.
I also think that, while I may disagree with Jim and Helen and others on different points, that has nothing to do with the fact that what is happening here … conversations that cross the borders of theology and world views … is something that Conservative Evangelical (even Fundamentalist) Christians have got to learn to do. My agreement or disagreement on theological points is not a factor. It’s the skill of being civil to those whom I am trying to reach, that I’m trying to learn. And I want to bring that skill back to my church and lead them down this path, too. My call, and the call of likeminded Evangelical Christians is to “make disciples of all men.” My question to the church is, how can we make disciples of them if we won’t talk to them? Or, better yet, listen to them? How can we make disciples of those who repulse us?? Maybe that word was too strong, but I’m not sure about that. Christians have got to learn to embrace those we are trying to reach. And again, how can you embrace someone you aren’t willing to even touch?
GROUP HUG!
Comment by: Helen
1 10/2/06 4:27 AM | Comment Link |I had the privilege of meeting Mike this weekend. Mike was in my area for a few days and was kind enough to drive to a coffee shop near me we we could meet.
I’ve enjoyed Mike’s participation here; being with him in person was even better. He’s a wonderful guy - very warm and friendly.
I loved how he is honest and upfront about his beliefs but at the same time he gave me the ‘freedom to be where I am’ in my beliefs/non-beliefs. Mike would like to see others come to share his beliefs - yet his approach is “If you don’t agree with my beliefs I can handle that. Let’s be friends anyway!”
Mike I hope I haven’t said anything wrong about you in what I just wrote. It was so much fun to meet you in person!
Picking up on one thing you wrote above:
I apologize if I’ve put pressure on you to change your beliefs. Like you, I care about how people behave. I’d like people to figure out how to be kinder to one another. If people can do that without changing their beliefs, that’s fine with me!
Comment by: JG
2 10/2/06 5:33 AM | Comment Link |Helen, I whole heartedly agree with you and with Mike’s approach as summarised by you.
My question for Mike is, to what extent do you feel your approach differs from other Christians in the US?
I can only speak for the UK and for the Christians I have come into contact with but would say that apart from a few exceptions, most mainstream Christians would have the approach of:
“If you don’t agree with my beliefs I can handle that. Let’s be friends anyway!”
I would struggle to see how any Christian could justify any other approach.
What I also like about Mike’s approach is Helen’s comment:
“I loved how he is honest and upfront about his beliefs.”
I do believe this is important and is one of the things I like about Conversation at the Edge. It is just as important to be honest and upfront about our unbeliefs and the things we struggle with. I like the honesty and integrity of contributors to CatE.
Comment by: Eliza
3 10/2/06 7:28 AM | Comment Link |Mike O, thanks for doing the interview. It’s interesting to learn more about your, your family, and your busy life!
These dares you’ve given kids for $1-$5 which involve playing with their heads, taste buds, and intestinal tracts - can I ask, does this fall under “do unto others”? Have you accepted any similar dares back from them, or would you? My husband and I have a friend who has accepted dares (and money) to do stuff like this - drink a cup of ketchup, maybe not as bad as a jar of pickle juice - but that was as an adult, with full knowledge of what he was getting into & basically asking to be dared to do something crazy.
Comment by: Mike O
4 10/2/06 8:01 AM | Comment Link |Thanks, helen for the opportunity to do this interview. It was an honor to have the platform for a few minutes.
Before I go on, in rereading what I wrote, I misunderstood one of the questions.
I thought it was asking what would I say to a fundy if I thought they were listening, and to them, I’d say you’re not doing anyone any favors by being abrasive.
Helen, you’re a sweetheart. Really. Frankly, I’m not sure what you’re appologizing for. I don’t mind people questioning what I believe … there’s value in that and I do the same.
To JG - It’s hard to explain. There’s a Christian mentality that it’s absolutely critical that people accept Christ “before it’s too late.” This is all IMO, but that puts a sense of urgency on our conversations with non-Christians. And when things don’t progress quickly enough, we start pressuring and getting too pushy. Our intentions are good, but we don’t perform well. I think where I differ is that while I agree with the premise that all people need to accept Christ to spend eternity with Him, it’s not MY RESPONSIBILITY to “make the sale.” I need to do my part, whatever that is, but it’s up to the Holy Spirit to nudge them towards himself through my actions. Otherwise we’re just arguing.
Does that makes sense? Somehow, I think the intentions are teh same, but when it devolves into “arguing for Christ,” that’s not very effective.
In the Christian circles I live in, we don’t do a good job of mixing with non-Christians. Either we can’t relate to them because we’re “SO Christian,” or we become so much like them that we’re basically not a good representative of Christ. The balance of maintaining my Christian beliefs, but with enough grace that it’s not offensive to my non-Christian friends, gives me the ability to spend time with them (and they with me) without becoming like them. It’s hard.
Comment by: Mike O
5 10/2/06 8:30 AM | Comment Link |Eliza, under the right circumstances, I would. To quote Norm from the TV show, Cheers … “I can’t be pressured. And I can’t be bought. But you put the two of them together, and I’m your man!”
I would take somoeone up on a dare for the right crowd and if there was enough peer pressure.
The beauty of it is, kids are inherently greedy. They want that dollar, and will do my bidding to get it. I guess I would, too, but I would need a bigger payoff.
Comment by: jim
6 10/2/06 11:16 AM | Comment Link |Mike
It was great to get a better picture of you.
You are obviously bright, thougthful and have a wonderful sense of emotional security
Your passion for Jesus is palpable and admirable.
I would like to hear more from you on this statement. Tell us WHY you think Cs dont do this automatically- what happened?
Comment by: Mike O
7 10/2/06 12:19 PM | Comment Link |Somewhere along the line, the idea that we should be set apart from the world got out of balance and became being seperate from the world.
Speaking from personal experience, I have church friends and outside-church friends. But nobody who is both. Why is that? Why is it that the only time I see my church friends is when I’m at church or at a church function? Why is it that I’ve invited my coworkers to several church-sponsored events, but none of them will come? Well, a few have, but generally speaking, they don’t want anything to do with “religion.” Why is that? They invite me to things and I go, no problem. But when I invite them to my things, they get very uncomfortable. Why?
The converse is also true, at least for my church friends. They would NEVER go to a bar or secular concert, but if I invited them to my house for a Bible study or some Christian function, they’re all too happy to come if they can. Why?
Somehow, there’s a line that neither side is comfortable crossing. It’s almost like those of us inside the castle (cage?) aren’t comfortable venturing out into the village with the peasants, and those in the village aren’t comfortable being invited into the castle.
I want to be like Jasmine in the movie Aladin. Royalty incogneto. I don’t mean that to sound elitist … that was just a word picture. But I live in one world and want to live in the other as well. But somehow there is a seperatist attitude on both sides, and if the Christians won’t cross the line, who will? The non-Christians aren’t exactly breaking down our door to get in.
I just think we need to mix better. Jesus told US to go to THEM. He didn’t say “wait for them to come to you.” He said, “go ye therefore into all the world and make disciples.”
I go to a pentecostal church, and subscribe to most pentecostal teachings. But I think one of the downsides to the pentecostal mindset (which irks me to no end!) is an elitist attitude that gets in the way of reaching people. There was a conversation out here a week or two ago where I talked about how pentecostals have a great relationship with God (very spiritual), but often at the expense of their relationship to people. I see it in my own history. That doesn’t make it wrong, necessarily, it’s just a natural weakness. And it’s that weakness that I am struggling to overcome.
I feel like I’m beating around the bush here, but I think Cs and non-Cs just naturally run with different groups of people, and if those groups never intersect, what impact will either have on the other?
Comment by: Karen
8 10/2/06 1:27 PM | Comment Link |Maybe it’s a “mom” thing, but I just don’t see the humor in watching someone choke down his own vomit. Or watching a little girl burn her mouth on an entire jalapeno (way too spicy even for my adult mouth). Or even in power trips and “messing with” kids’ heads. If you pulled something like that on a kid I knew, I would have your head on a platter.
I don’t think kids do stupid things because they’re “greedy” - $5 doesn’t buy much these days. They accept challenges due to peer pressure and because they just haven’t developed the higher-order thinking yet that allows them to exercise good judgment.
Sorry for the rant. Does your wife think this stuff is hilarious too?
Comment by: Mike O
9 10/2/06 1:32 PM | Comment Link |My wife just rolls her eyes.
And the vomit kid … that’s wasn’t supposed to happen that way.
And if people were getting upset, I’d stop. I guess it all depends on the audience, but I’m a pretty good-natured guy. I don’t want anyone mad at me.
Comment by: Helen
10 10/2/06 1:46 PM | Comment Link |Karen, having met Mike, I can’t imagine him ever really wanting to hurt anyone.
Mike, I have to say, it’s probably unusual behavior for a “pastor’s wife”. It might be best not to mention it at the pastor’s wives retreat!
Comment by: jim
11 10/2/06 3:16 PM | Comment Link |Mike
I thought the vomigt story was funny but then Im not a mom
It may surprise you to know that I got “saved” (yes I am one of those) into a Pentecostal church but had not cultural or theological orientation toward it. All I knew was that they looked a lot more “on fire” than the prebyterians and methodists and baptists etc.
Of course I eventually needed to escape the craziness (Im sure it was just myt brand not yours) and got involved with “proper” evangelicals - after 20 or so years with them I now know why I chose to start with pentcostals- I dont think I could have ever gotten saved it the only choice I had was evangelical churches
BUT - what I really want to know is more about why you think we are in the castle and they are the peasants :-)
Comment by: Mike O
12 10/2/06 4:19 PM | Comment Link |Our church motto is “The church has left the building.” From our perspective, we’re holed up in a building called a church rather than being the church.
That’s where the “we’re in the castle” perspective comes from. The christians are the ones that need to leave their comfort zone.
Plus, I came up with the castle analogy as I was reading your first question. Poetic, no?
Comment by: Eliza
13 10/2/06 6:52 PM | Comment Link |Mike O, if you don’t mind a comment from a peasant in the village :-)
I think it’s great that you pay attention to how things come across to your non-Christian friends. (But then, I would!) Besides not (usually) coming to church events that you might invite them to, does any discussion of religious beliefs come up in conversation with your non-Christian friends?
I really appreciate how you do your part and let the H.S. do the rest. I also really appreciate having your comments & viewpoint here at CatE - thanks for that.
This is certainly understandable when you consider the stakes that seem to be at hand, but I agree that it’s part of the big gulf between Cs and non-Cs. Besides stepping back & reducing the urgency to try to cross the gulf, do you think it’s possible for Cs to try to take a longer-range, less urgent view? More than 60 generations have passed since the disciples heard that their generation truly would not pass before the second coming & the kingdom of God, and each of those generations has been eager & ready and trying to spread the word while there was still time. While past performance is no guarantee of future returns, I’m thinking that stepping back and taking a long, slow, deep breath & re-evaluating how Christians comes across might be time well spent, not wasted.
Comment by: Mike O
14 10/2/06 8:35 PM | Comment Link |Yes, it does. Not every day or even every week, but it does on occasion. And rarely does it go deep, but it has. One coworker was going through a nasty divorce and wanted to know what I thought he should do. I’m his manager … it’s really none of my business. But after warning him that what I was going to say would be based on the Bible, he wanted to hear it, so I went there. He ultimately didn’t do what I thought he should do, but we’re still friends. At least he trusted me enough to ask.
And when people are sick or have sick relatives, I offer to pray. One guy, Michael, is Buddhist and his mother was dying in Viet Nam. He told me he goes to temple to pray and I offered to go with him. He didn’t want that, but at least it came up. So that kind of thing happens once in a while.
This is funny … one time out of the blue a guy I work with came up to me and said, “So, Mike. How are things with you and the Lord today? Because He’s really F***ing me over.” Even though it took me completely by surprise, at least he noticed I was a believer. We’re friends, so it was all right. He was having a really bad day. But from then on, I’ve asked him on occasion, “So, how are things with you and the Lord today?” At least it’s a connecting point.
Comment by: Mike O
15 10/2/06 8:38 PM | Comment Link |Eliza, regarding taking a longer-range view, I guess I don’t know about that. But I can at least take the responsibility off of myself and let the Holy Spirit do his work. I’ve heard it put this way … live each day as if He will be coming back today, but plan each day as if he’ll never come back. To me, that means, just keep on keepin’ on.
Comment by: jim
16 10/3/06 7:31 AM | Comment Link |Mike - that was an OA and very kind of you
Mike - Since Jesus wasted a lot of time having small conversations and failing to properly follow up as well as forgetting to travel to Egypt and Persia to preach - why should WE be urgent
Comment by: Helen
17 10/13/06 3:05 AM | Comment Link |By the way, you can read more about Mike here:
Conservative Christian changes mind