Posted by Helen on: 10.19.2006 /
I was surprised to see that there were seven letters/articles in last week’s newspaper related to the dialog about going to/not going to church my newspaper article started! The links are below:
I made a table of all the dialog-related articles that have been in the newspaper here. I’ll update it if/when anything else related is printed. I didn’t see anything in this week’s (yesterday’s) newspaper.
Comment by: David H
1 10/19/06 5:25 AM | Comment Link |It is good to see that some people have a humble interest in discussing such personal and often unsettling issues as their faith or lack thereof.
Unfortunately, because religion (or lack thereof) is also deeply personal, many people apparently find it hard to do anything with it other than shout back and forth across their fences.
I find CatE and the associated blogs important — personally — because I don’t like to shout and I don’t like fences (even though I’m sure I still have many of my own). I enjoy talking with the people here about issues of faith and religion because I have plenty of thoughts on those subjects but have stopped believing that anyone (especially me) has all of the answers.
Comment by: Helen
2 10/19/06 8:16 AM | Comment Link |David H wrote:
David, I think the feeling must be mutual because your comments here have been very well-received. I know that, speaking for myself, I’ve very much enjoyed your contributions to the conversation here.
Comment by: Eliza
3 10/19/06 1:51 PM | Comment Link |Helen, you probably won’t be surprised to hear that the pastor teaching the class I’m attending has stressed that non-members may come to church services but should not take communion (or whatever Lutherans call it) before Lesson 11. (Presumably, the student should also agree with the teachings in Lesson 11!)
Comment by: Eliza
4 10/19/06 1:57 PM | Comment Link |It’s great that the WJ is keeping this dialogue going - even encouraging it!
It’s interesting (but I guess not surprising) how much feeling this topic engenders, how much strong emotions come through in the letters. Like this expression of disgust:
Also, maybe this makes sense too but the short letters are harder to figure out than the long ones - there’s not as much context to figure out where the writer is coming from.
Helen, once again your comments (in print, as they are online) are thoughtful & graceful! And I like the way you slipped the web address of CatE in!
Comment by: Julie Marie
5 10/19/06 1:59 PM | Comment Link |yeah, smooth, isn’t she?
Comment by: benjamin ady
6 10/19/06 9:54 PM | Comment Link |…Love the way you assumed permission to use Dean’s first name as a noun of direct address. How *normal* of you! Here’s to gently and …cunningly breaking down the (sham) distinction between pastors and the rest of us!
Comment by: Helen
7 10/20/06 4:47 AM | Comment Link |Eliza wrote:
Thanks Eliza! Since I was talking about my belief in the value of dialog, it seemed relevant ;-)
No, I’m not at all surprised! Did you see where I mentioned that Dean/Rev Lueking’s church was Missouri Synod when he became their minister, but they chose to leave and become an independent Lutheran church? That was an interesting piece of information that George Thompson mentioned to me in an e-mail recently (he wrote one of the seven articles and also stopped by my house one Sunday morning to invite me to church since Dean/Rev Lueking was speaking that morning).
Julie Marie wrote:
Thanks…I try to be!
Benjamin wrote:
Thanks Benjamin. One of the things that has really touched me is that he hasn’t assumed an air of authority over me. You may have seen that I called him last month and he invited me to his house for for coffee (see here and here). One of the first things he said to me personally was “Please call me Dean” but since he hadn’t said that in the newspaper, I wanted to be polite and ask in that context.
Anyway, I was rather taken aback when Pastor David defended the difference between clergy and laity in the comments on your church review.
Comment by: David H
8 10/20/06 6:16 AM | Comment Link |I have somewhat mixed feelings on this subject. My father was an ordained minister (however, w/ Southern Baptist that didn’t even require high school graduation at the time), but he was certainly no better than anyone else (one might argue just the opposite).
However, the true pastors (i.e. shepherds) I have met have been people that are set apart. Pastor James, who was a guiding force in my adult spiritual development, is my friend. But I can tell that there is something different about him. He isn’t the leader of a church right now, but people instinctively recognize that he is a pastor even if he doesn’t say a word about his faith. He doesn’t expect deference and I would not say that is a quality of our relationship. But it also seems that his pastoral qualities (serving others, showing God’s love) are as much a part of him as hair or eye color. I have to work at those things. They seem natural in him (I am also sure he is far to humble to agree with me on this).
And the educational aspects of almost anything are something that sets people apart in some ways whether they like or not. If people who know me are taking pictures and I show up, they automatically either a) ask me to take the pictures or b) get a bit shy about the pictures they are taking. If it comes up in conversation that I am a photo editor, inevitably someone will ask me for advice on purchasing a digital camera (it doesn’t matter for some that they have been shooting pix for years, my thoughts on the subject are gold). And since I have a bit of experience and knowledge with Photoshop and computers, riends constantly turn to me to help them print better pictures or fix computer issues. An old saying in the computer biz is that if you know one thing that is unknown to the smartest guy in the room, that makes you the smartest guy in the room.
But my knowledge doesn’t make me a better photographer or computer tech than everyone else. And what I know doesn’t have to be a barrier between myself and others. It can be something that brings us together. It really depends on the attitudes of everyone in the conversation.
Comment by: Helen
9 10/20/06 9:15 AM | Comment Link |David, thanks - you have such a thoughtful way of looking at both sides of an issue!
Comment by: benjamin ady
10 10/22/06 8:52 PM | Comment Link |Hey guys, here’s kind of a tongue in cheek video about the “role” of senior pastors. Thought you might enjoy it pastors
Comment by: benjamin ady
11 10/22/06 8:56 PM | Comment Link |and another one reverend
Comment by: Pastor David
12 10/23/06 2:11 PM | Comment Link |I guess I just don’t understand this. I have really tried, but I don’t get it.
Most people have no problem calling an MD “doctor.”
Most people don’t mind addressing a judge as “your honor.”
Most people don’t mind calling their political representative “Senator” or “congressman/congresswoman.”
So why the problem addressing the one set aside to shepherd a congregation as “pastor”?
Comment by: David H
13 10/23/06 7:22 PM | Comment Link |Four years of medical school gets you a degree. You can be a lousy human being, but you can still be a good doctor by most professional measures.
Four years of law school will likewise get you a degree. Lawyers are often lousy people, but that doesn’t stop them from being good lawyers by most professional standards.
And what does it take to be a good politician? Is it the same as being a good person?
The problem with pastor is that it isn’t just an honorific. And if you are not a good person, it really doesn’t matter in many senses how good you were in seminary, speaking from the pulpit, or anything else.
I would hazard a guess that most people know someone with the title of pastor who is a lousy person. Unfortunately, that then affects their potential perspective on every other person they meet bearing that title.
Bottom line is some people are called pastor, but aren’t good shepherds. I know others who are good shepherds who could care less if anyone ever calls them pastor. It isn’t the title that sets someone apart. What sets them apart is in their hearts and comes out through their hands and feet and (sometimes, also) their mouths.
Comment by: benjamin ady
14 10/23/06 11:06 PM | Comment Link |Pastor David,
Perhaps it’s generational. I know in the circles I run in, people feel more comfortable addressing other people and/or referring to them by their first or first and last names. I have trouble with “your honor” to a judge and “doctor” to an MD. But my parents don’t have any problem with these things–in fact it’s automatic for them.