Posted by Helen on: 11.09.2006 /
Note: the comments section on this entry is now closed. If you would like to continue discussing whether Mark Driscoll’s teachings are hurtful to women, please do so on the People Against Fundamentalism blog. If you would like to read about spiritual abuse or discuss it in general, without reference to a particular church or leader, please see this blog entry: Spiritual Abuse Recovery Resources.
A few days ago Mark Driscoll shared his response to the Ted Haggard situation on his blog. In his introduction he comments:
I have, however, seen some very overt opportunities for sin. On one occasion I actually had a young woman put a note into my shirt pocket while I was serving communion with my wife, asking me to have dinner, a massage, and sex with her.
She must have been a bit mixed up about what sort of communion was being offered at Mark’s church…
Anyway, do we really need to know these details? How are men who read Mark Driscoll’s blog supposed to not think about illicit sex if he keeps writing about it?
On another occasion a young woman emailed me a photo of herself topless and wanted to know if I liked her body. Thankfully, that email was intercepted by an assistant and never got to me.
I hate to disappoint Mark but that sounds like spam rather an an example of a woman who singled him out for her personal attentions.
Why is he thankful it never got to him? Is he that weak that it would have been a significant problem if it had?
Again, do we really need these details? Was this his trusty heterosexual male assistant who intercepted this e-mail? Why did the assistant click on the attachment and find out she was topless?
After the introduction, Mark writes:
as a means of encouragement, I would like to share some practical suggestions for fellow Christian leaders, especially young men
I do like his stated motive. However, he seems to have some other motives too. In bullet point two of his advice to men he finds himself unable to refrain from making derogatory comments about pastors’ wives (emphasis mine):
Most pastors I know do not have satisfying, free, sexual conversations and liberties with their wives. At the risk of being even more widely despised than I currently am, I will lean over the plate and take one for the team on this. It is not uncommon to meet pastors’ wives who really let themselves go; they sometimes feel that because their husband is a pastor, he is therefore trapped into fidelity, which gives them cause for laziness. A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband’s sin, but she may not be helping him either.
I listen to a Christian radio show that is more enlightened, evidently, than Mark Driscoll. They have a name for men who say “my wife was not sexually available enough for me so I went outside the marriage”: sex addicts. The hosts of the show run workshops especially to help men recover from sexual addiction. On air I hear them discuss with the wife what she can do to help her husband. However, strangely enough I have never heard them ask “Have you ‘let yourself go’? Because if you have, that’s probably why this happened!” Unlike Mark they do not blame her for her husband’s behavior.
In bullet point five we hear about the flirtatious woman who might show up to Bible study at the pastors’ home. I wonder what ‘test’ is used to determine whether she is being flirtatious?
Pastors have the right to protect their own home. This means that if someone keeps dropping by unannounced and is unwelcome, or a flirtatious woman shows up to a Bible study at the pastor’s home, the pastor and his family have the right to request that they never return.
In bullet point seven we discover that female assistants to pastors are unable to avoid becoming too emotionally involved with them. Mark suggests returning to male heretosexual assistants. (What about female lesbian ones?)
Churches should consider returning to heterosexual male assistants who are like Timothy and Titus to serve alongside pastors. Too often the pastor’s assistant is a woman who, if not sexually involved, becomes too emotionally involved with the pastor as a sort of emotional and practical second wife. I have been blessed with a trustworthy heterosexual male assistant who can travel with me, meet with me, etc., without the fear of any temptations or even false allegations since we have beautiful wives and eight children between us.
Yes, as long as you are with a man who has a beautiful wife and a number of children you can be sure there’s no risk of problematic temptations occurring. Well, as long as he’s not the President of the NAE, anyway. (Mark did write this before the allegations against Ted Haggard were proven - but not before they were made. Did he really think this through?)
In bullet point nine the flirtatious woman rears her attractive head again:
if the pastor knows someone is trouble (e.g., a flirtatious woman), he can see that on his caller ID and simply refuse to answer the call or have to deal with a voicemail.
If Mark is too weak to deal with her, couldn’t he ask someone else to help her (since she’s in trouble) rather than ignoring her? Where in the Bible does it say “love your neighbor (of course that means help your neighbor, not ‘respond to any flirtatious overtures’) unless she is a flirtatious woman“?
What is it with Mark Driscoll and women?
Comment by: Julie Marie
1a commenter on one of the Christian blogs I read had this to say, and I liked it:
I have heard that women throw themselves at pastors and priests, if this is true, it is wise for them to come up with a way to deal with it. My former pastors have quite a list of protections - no one on one counseling with females, no closed doors with females, no riding in cars with females, no business trips with females…
Maybe that is one reason it is so hard for women to have any sort of pastoral position in churches.
I do have one question: does anyone know what in the world Driscoll means when he calls himself a heterosexual lesbian? Is it just a hyperbolic assertion that he is really really into women?
Comment by: Helen
2He’s ridiculing lesbians and churches which do not take the stand that all forms of homosexual lifestyle are sinful.
Comment by: Helen
3Julie Marie wrote:
…and they probably would have been happy to ride alone with Ted Haggard (until a little over a week ago). Ironic, huh?
Comment by: Paul
4Here’s my take, for what it’s worth, why throw good brain power after bad and bother to give Mr Driscoll the time and attention he so craves from his pronouncements. He wants, so it would seem to me, for the whole world to applaud him or rail at him and thus blogsphere fills up with Driscoll related for him or against him blather…
As a Christian I cannot be bothered to take part in any more blue on blue action, it’s one firestorm in a tea cup I’d rather sit out. Friendly fire is just, well never friendly.
As a human being who thinks, i have a choice where to invest my thoughts and actions to make the world a better place, and this investment would just yield way too little return…
So rather than give him the attention Mr Driscoll craves by interacting I am going to do something much more fun and useful like clean my ears…
Comment by: Helen
5Fair enough, Paul. Thanks for sharing your opinion.
Comment by: Julie Marie
6the thing that is upsetting about Driscoll is that he has the ear of many young pastors. His church is successful, and too often success is seen as Gods blessing and approval. Just having stepped out from under the repression CE puts on women, I am going to hava a response.
If he weren’t infulential, if he were some crackpot on the corner, I’d be more apt to say this is not a productive way to spend my time.
Comment by: Keith
7The fact that Driscoll is willing to communicate his sometimes-accurate-sometimes-not thoughts on sex is a sign that he is a guy who will be honest. And didn’t we just spend a bunch of time on the Ted Haggard post talking about how the focus had been on the sexual sin rather than the dishonesty? Driscoll is immature to be sure - so am I - but he is willing to speak honestly. If there were only two options (and I know there are more than these two), I would rather hear uncomfortable details about how the thinks and protects himself, than about how he used meth with a male prostitute.
Comment by: Helen
8Thanks Julie Marie - when you posted your first response I was wondering if being nice fully encompassed your feelings about this issue ;-)
The quote you posted - I have trouble with “We should ignore what he says about women and sexuality.” I really don’t see why we should, unless we’re sure that discussing it will achieve absolutely nothing except making us feel frustrated.
I’m happy to have men post their views on this - please continue to do so. However, I also find myself thinking “Do you really get what it’s like for women to read this stuff about women?”
I just posted a comment on on Church Rater about the importance of giving people space to say if they feel hurt, angry, betrayed, or whatever. It’s very ‘Christian’ to say “hey give the guy some slack - be nice to him - his honesty is refreshing” - or whatever.
But what about the women who read it? Why can’t we be honest about how amazingly disrespectful it is? Why should Mark Driscoll be given slack and praised for his honesty but if women share how they feel about his comments about them then they are admonished to be nicer to him? Can’t we get praised for our honesty too?
Comment by: Julie Marie
9I remember, during a hot and heavy debate on homosexuality last summer, one poster felt that the issue was not important enough to discuss. He, a heterosexual male, twice tried to divert the discussion to how we treat the poor.
Its easy to say a topic isn’t important when you aren’t the one being crushed by the heel of the boot.
I see your point now on “we should ignore…” but I took that more as advice to young male pastors. The idea that I should ignore him didn’t even occur to me. My days of adjusting the way I sit to accommodate the glass stuck in my ass are long gone. I’m pulling those shards out and giving them back.
Comment by: Stephan
10I would hesitate to totally disregard Driscoll. His intent is good - he wants to keep men from stumbling into a sexually compromised situation. It does sound, however, that he tends to over-sexualize things. He sounds a little paranoid, like every woman is out to get him (except, of course, his wife, who has, apparently, really let herself go).
It would not surprise me to find that Driscoll was being intentionally provocative in his language just to get people talking. Not that he does not believe what he said, but that he knows it will be unpopular and just wants to provoke discussion.
I think it is important for men, especially those in authority, to set boundaries for themselves. Accountability is key. I recall that Billy Graham would never have a private meeting with a woman - he would always have someone else there, just so everything was in the open. He wanted to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. But I doubt that he would have ever foisted responsibility on his wife or another woman.
Foist… what a funny word…
Comment by: Helen
11Julie Marie - definitely get that glass out of there!
Comment by: Marty G.
12I don’t know Mark Driscoll but I know some pastors who do. One pastor friend, when questioned about Driscoll, said, “He likes himself a bit too much.” This was also my impression after hearing him preach. His sermons ramble on for an hour to an hour and a half…repeating himself constantly. His sermons, boiled down to the meat, could be performed in 30-40 minutes. I think he just likes to hear himself talk.
My point and my impression is that, like other pastors of high profile churches, me thinks he’s gotten a little too big for his britches. I’ve seen this before. I used to travel with a touring Christian drama team and have been on program with many high profile pastors, speakers of note and authors. Many of these folks suffer from the “too big for their britches” syndrome.
As for the women coming on to ministers deal…not sure how true that is. I used to be a minister (single at the time) and no one ever came on to me. I met my wife on Eharmony. It seems to me like he’s bragging that he gets seduced. Tacky.
So, for what it’s worth, that’s my two cents.
Comment by: Pam Hogeweide
13the outrage is that driscoll, an influential spiritual leader with a lot of pulpit power, has demeaned women by putting the responsibility of their straying husbands on the wife’s fat, frumpy backside.
women then become responsible for their horny husband’s inability to Just Say No.
argh.
I do believe driscoll’s accounts of sexually aggressive women. success and power are irristible aphrodisiacs for some women, and the reality is that some women want to bed a spiritual leader. Kind of like bagging a rock star.
however, it’s inferred in his writing that leaders of this stature especially need their wives to keep it hot in the bedroom. or else their husbands can readily find a new sex partner.
sex is power. the powerful attract sex like bees to honey. just learn to keep it in your pocket and don’t blame your wife if you can’t.
Comment by: Corrie
14Helen, good points. I agree that many are missing the point and being dismissive about how Mark’s comments are demeaning to women.
It sounds like he lives in the Middle Ages where women were thought to be evil and the source of evil temptations. It is the “flirtatious” woman who shows up to Bible studies? Honestly, does that really happen? What if this woman is just friendly and wants to learn about the Lord? I have learned that a pretty woman couple with friendliness is mistaken for coming on to men. I didn’t realize this. I thought that being nice and friendly was a good thing but many men take politeness as a “come on”.
Mark Driscoll comes off as saying that women are the threat to male purity.
What does the Bible teach? Nothing of the sort.
Comment by: Rachel
15I tend to agree with Keith on this one. While most decidedly not a fan of Mark Driscoll, I appreciate his honesty and I respect the safeguards he has put around himself to avoid sexual temptation. In my observation, some lonely women will form an inappropriate attachment to their pastor. I don’t think that reflects badly on those women; it is simply an indication of their unmet needs. And hopefully the faith community is a place where those needs can be met. But an intimate emotional relationship with the pastor is not the way to meet those needs and such a relationship can often lead to sexual temptation.
Also, it is important to guard against such attachments because of the significant power differential between the pastor and the parishioner. And I do think the same dynamic could just as easily develop between a charismatic female minister and an emotionally needy male parishioner. I think it is wise for a minister to guard against such relationships.
Comment by: Helen
16I have no problem with him putting protective boundaries around himself. Quite honestly I agree with Stephan - he does come across as a bit paranoid about women out to get him. But - maybe they are; and maybe he knows he would have trouble resisting them; in which case he should protect himself and his marriage. Good for him.
What I don’t get is: why is he so careful to put those sorts of boundaries in place and yet he doesn’t seem interested in putting any in place which would prevent him saying such disrespectful things about women?
Why one kind of boundary and not another?
Comment by: Rachel
17One of the problems with Mark Driscoll is the extremely insensitive manner in which he says things. He has already been reprimanded by his church board for being crude and combative (that was the McLaren/homosexuality rant that included the infamous “heterosexual lesbian” comment).
I agree with this statement up to a point (ohmigosh, I can’t believe I’m actually semi-defending Mark Driscoll - this is upsetting my universe!) But why is it only referring to women? It would be just as accurate (and Biblical) to say that a MAN who “lets himself go” and is not sexually or emotionally available to his wife leaves HER open to temptation.
And I think it is important to qualify any statements of this nature by pointing out that 99.9% of us will never meet the completely unrealistic standards of beauty put forth by our culture.
Comment by: Rachel
18Excellent point, Helen. That goes back to the basic fact that Driscoll simply does not have an egalitarian view of men and women. And he feels entitled to say things in whatever manner he pleases, as long as he believes he is “right.” I think it is too bad that Driscoll has cut his ties with Brian McLaren. Driscoll could learn a lot from McLaren about kindness, gentleness and self-control.
Comment by: Julie Marie
19I think being sexually available to each other is very important in a marriage. My first marriage failed partly because of that…I lost my desire for him, and he fell into temptation. But theres more to it than that…why did I lose my desire? I lost it because if my needs didn’t fit into his paradigm, they were invalidated. And his paradigm was structured to address his goals and aspirations only. I could either fight it (which led nowhere), leave (didn’t give myself that option), find gratification elsewhere (refused to do this) or repress the frustration. Problem was the frustration didn’t get repressed in isolation…my passion went down with it.
Its so easy to say “be sexually available.” The thing I learned from that painful part of my life is that when my sex drive goes “poof” attend to it. There’s something wrong that needs to be addressed.
Comment by: Keith
20Helen, I agree and never meant to infer that Driscoll should be given freedom to be honest, but women not. Kudos to you and other ladies here who are willing to say that his words are not appreciated.
Comment by: Karen
21Wow. There sure are a lot more “flirtatious women” in Christian circles than there were when I was a Christian! Either that, or this guy is intent on making other men envy his lofty position as chick-magnet for the Lord. ;-)
I must’ve gotten out of Christian circles before this guy popped up. I’ve never heard of him. I can’t imagine having to “disregard” everything he says on such an important topic, then trying to give him any credibility on other topics. How can he get this huge area so wrong? He seems tone-deaf to me - unaware of how he comes off to readers outside his own circle of followers. Not terribly unusual, actually. My husband and I used to get so frustrated going to Christian marriage seminars because they made such totally sexist assumptions about men and women, and most of the time they didn’t apply to our personalities at all!
A couple thoughts: I attended a very conservative fundamentalist church for a few years in the mid-80s. The pastor was a dashing charmer, a dead ringer for Clark Gable. His wife was a lovely, smart woman who sang in the choir, had a beautiful voice and often performed solos during services. During the course of their long marriage and four kids, she’d become overweight. She wasn’t unattractive, or sloppy, but she was heavyset.
Just after we left the church, the pastor got caught having an affair with his 20-something secretary and was removed from leadership. I never heard what eventually happened to him. But some of his supporters offered up excuses about how his wife had “let herself go” and was partially responsible for his straying. I thought it was total B.S., and so did most church members. It was hard to believe that was even suggested - and this was 20 years ago!
Julie:
ROTFL!! Julie, that is quite an image. ;-)
Comment by: Julie Marie
22we had that experience too…never did get around to completing our homework. regular counseling, where the counselor looked at both of us and said, listen…you were attracted to each other because of your strong opinions, right? Well…it was so nice to not have someone telling me to hush my opinion!
Karen, I just started giggling about the glass comment. Can you imagine the reaction to someone handing Driscoll (or any other sexist person) a bloody shard of glass and telling them “I believe this really belongs to you…”
Comment by: Jim Henderson
23(IMNSHO)I find Driscolls comments to be crude and disgusting.If he isnt already a closeted sex addict he certainly sounds like one. He is exhibiting many signs of hidden sex addiction. Sex addicts “find” ways to raise the topic of sex even when it seems impossible to do so, they are also attracted by the risk of doing it at the most imappropriate times. Why would Driscoll launch into his personal sexual fantasies instead of focusing on Haggards stuggles-what other influential C leader has done or is doing that). Sex addcits also enjoy the riskier locations(think oval office or on a public blog).
The fact that Driscoll is young is a two edged sword and is simply too bad. It’s obvious to anyone over 50 that this is one of his inbuilt limitations but he is also playing that card in public so it will be in public that he will have to learn his lessons. You simply cannot have it both ways - Get the stage and ask people to look at you in admiration and then complain about the stage when you act stupid(see any famous rock bands or politicians or preachers).
Again (IMNSHO) his behavior is disgusting and borders on dangerous. He is innoculating thousands of young people with arrogance and spiritual pride, he is grooming them to be part of (what I perceive to be) his personal sexual addictions all the time hiding behind scritpural talk and/or his “great peaching” (I mean really what does being a great preacher say about anyones character or their ability to lead- (again see former Pres Clinton)
Clinton drug a whole nation into his sexual fantasies - Driscoll seems to me to be marching down that same narrow path. He stuck his head out over the plate thinking (and I use the term very loosely) he was being heroic (”I’ll take one for the team”) when in fact what he was really doing what sharing his own personal struggles.
Comment by: Helen
24Jim wrote:
Yes - it really bothers me that he is role-modelling “be like me” to so many other young men.
Comment by: Corrie
25Someone just sent me the link to this blog and I think it clearly shows some more of what people think deep down in their hearts about women. I think a good point was made by “anon” about how these men have a right to their opinions and being “sensitive” and passionate about their feelings concerning things but those who disagree are feminists and male haters.
There is a lot of hypocrisy and deep-seated hatred in some statements. I don’t doubt that these men feel this way about most women. And these two men are pastors who counsel couples on marital issues.
I fear that with this sort of deep-down animosity towards women, they are not doing these couples a service.
Comment by: benjamin ady
26Did you see this in Mark’s post
Does this strike anyone else as either: A. excrementum or B. a terrible wresting of the word “faithful”?
I don’t know what’s up with Mars Hill being so popular. They keep getting called “emergent”, but as Sparky points out in this article, they simply are not!
Comment by: Corrie
27The link I posted doesn’t work.
Here it is:
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=18468281&postID=116292891245122674
Comment by: Helen
28I just fixed your original link too, Corrie.
I was reading thoughts about Mark Driscoll on another blog and the author points out how Mark objectifies women. I didn’t mention that specifically but I agree. He seems far too focused on outward beauty, imo.
Comment by: Julie Marie
29nice links, Benjamin and Helen…thanks.
Scarey Link Corrie! The thing that makes me the saddest is the women agreeing to the repression. Mrs. Mark Driscoll also wrote a piece about the wife’s role a little while ago. It was straight out of the 1940s.
Comment by: Julie Marie
30a link to Grace Driscoll’s article is here
Comment by: Rachel
31Corrie, I visited that blog and I found this delightful comment: Go try your feminist Jedi mind tricks to stir things up with someone else…it doesn’t work with me.
Jedi mind tricks? Wow! Apparently this particular feminist missed out on that class. I gotta find out how to do that!
Comment by: Julie Marie
32oh my goodness, and they think sex is powerful. sex + Jedi mind tricks? Soon we feminists willl rule the world! Bwhahahahahaha
Comment by: Rachel
33Hello, Mark Driscoll, we are your worst nightmare!
Comment by: Rachel
34Hey Jim, can you offer a feminist Jedi mind tricks workshop at the next Off the Map conference?
Comment by: Karen
35LOL! I think that’s exactly what they deserve to get!
Glad I wasn’t drinking anything when I read that … ! :-)
Comment by: Doreen
36It’s not just women, pastors & priests & ministers have both genders exhibiting this behavior. My counseling prof last summer was a fantastic prof who was not particularly good looking. As he said, if he has women throwing themselves at him, one realizes it is possible for any religious leader to receive this kind of unwanted attention.
That being said, I’d never heard of this Driscoll character and I can’t say I’m sorry….
Comment by: Julie Marie
37I’ve noticed that. I guess “young and brash” is what many traditional Chrisitians think of when they think of Emergents.
Comment by: Siamang
38I think that’s normal. College teachers get that often.
Comment by: Thomas E. Ward, Jr.
39Helen,
You’re way too smart to waste your time deconstructing and demonizing Mark’s post. Besides, whether or not you or I agree with Driscoll’s perspective, at least he’s willing to talk openly about this stuff, something Ted Haggard never felt the freedom to do.
Peace to you.
Tom
Comment by: Corrie
40Yes, Julie, I saw that reference to “Jedi mind tricks”. Don’t forget, this gem is coming from a man who is a pastor.
Also, just checked at the link and “dh” posted a nice post script:
Watch out for those frigid, frumpy feminists.
Another gem from a leader of the church. I wonder what kind of church these men lead? Are they part of the emergent/emerging church? The pastor’s wife has quite few links of emergents on her blog.
I guess it saddens me that men who are called to shepherd the people of God’s flock are so caustic, sarcastic, and down-right mean spirited. Instead of teaching in gentleness with wisdom and making sure that their words are seasoned with grace they use put-downs and take occasion to use the sensitivies and pain of another HUMAN BEING as a weapon which they delightfully stab into their soul.
These are the men who are called to teach the word of God?
If you follow that conversation, you will see that their tantrums are unfounded. They are very dramatic and very emotional and very illogical.
I can now understand why so many people tell me they want to have nothing to do with the church. It is not a healthy place to be when you have men like this at the helm.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
41Thomas do I hear you telling Helen to shut up?
Do I hear you saying Driscoll is right about his opionions about Fat pastors wives?
Do I understand that you would prefer that we kill this discussion so as to not “touch the lords annointed”?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
42I wonder why?
Sounds like now we are blaming not only his wife, but his church, the entire body of Christ and all evangelicals.
Comment by: Helen
43Thomas wrote:
I think it’s very likely that Ted Haggard (even though my guess would be that he’s a complementarian) never felt the freedom Mark Driscoll inexplicably feels to be so openly rude and disrespectful towards women.
But I doubt that’s what you meant.
Can you explain to me how this openness of Mark’s helps you? What does it do for you to know that a woman put a note in his pocket asking him for sex during communion? How has that information drawn you closer to God? If men are as susceptible to sexual temptation as Mark implies, surely the mere mention of such things is going to turn their thoughts in a rather different direction than towards Jesus. Isn’t it?
Comment by: naimas
44I can’t believe that people want to cut Mark slack because he is young and green? Uh, OK, then have him take offerings, scrub toilets and NOT preach. Take away the microphone. Mark speaks such poison because it makes people notice him and feeds his arrogance. You can read my strong words for Mark on my blog. I really wish he would just shut up and stop hurting people that other Ministers are trying to heal and reach.
Comment by: Helen
45I just found an article on Salon.com which includes this example of what Mark Driscoll’s view of being a woman does to a woman:
Comment by: Benjamin Ady
46is there any hope of me developing this jedi mind trick thing? Or is it a ladies only thing? (maybe if I attend the OTM workshop, I can at least hope to learn a way to counter it)
Comment by: Helen
47Benjamin, I think only women are allowed to attend the classes. However, men are allowed to learn ‘in quietness and submission’ from their wives at home, if their wives are willing to teach them. ;-)
Comment by: Christine
48Perhaps someone made this point in an earlier blog and I missed it. Forgive me if that’s true.
What’s fascinating to me is that Driscoll uses one married, supposedly heterosexual preacher’s alleged solicitation of a male prostitute to inspire true confessions of various sorts about the conduct of women and how men must be on guard against them.
That’s a pretty big reach. I hope his sermons track better than that, but the sad fact is they don’t have to. Just rev up the amps and people will bounce to any beat. That’s what he’s doing. Either consciously as a way to deflect from the real issue or unconsciously.
The evangelical community seems desperate to treat what was an incredibly strong homosexual compulsion over a long period of time as just another sin. Understandably. Doing anything else underminds their position.
I can’t help but laugh to see that Driscoll has chosen women, such a reliably good target, (and fat women, even better) to help him dodge the heart of this issue. If he’d been Rove he might have weighed in about black people’s criminality.
Stay tuned. That could be next.
What I’d like to hear Driscoll give us advice on is his attraction to men and how he keeps from following through on that. That is the issue afterall. And it might be helpful to all those evangelical men with similar problems.
But even then the issue wouldn’t be gay men coming on to him. It would be how he manages to resist calling male prostitutes and buying drugs from them.
Now there’s a temptation. I don’t know how many in his audience have to resist it, but if they do, they need really need his help.
Or maybe his help isn’t the help they need.
Comment by: Benjamin Ady
49Well I don’t totally mind the submission thing, but the quiet might be difficult. (oh dear, getting a bit off topic). (or maybe not)
Comment by: Corrie
50Benjamin,
I believe that the pastor said these were “feminist Jedi mind tricks”. I am guessing that these feminists learn these in their subversive underground training camps.
Jabba the Hut was completely against using Jedi mind tricks.
For more about Jedi mind tricks, go to this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_mind_trick
And then go to the above link and try to figure out what the heck this guy was referring to?
Paranoia will get you every time.
Comment by: Rachel
51That’s true. I do love your laugh, Ben…but I’m afraid it would disrupt my concentration during the subversive feminist mind tricks class. ;-)
Comment by: Benjamin Ady
52maybe we should pool our money and send mark driscoll a copy of “killing us softly 3″ from Jean Kilbourne, in which she talks about the enormously powerful negative effect of the prevalent message in our culture about women: “women only have value if they are young, thin, and beautiful”
Comment by: Benjamin Ady
53rachel–you elicited my laugh. thankyou
Comment by: Benjamin Ady
54from the wikipedia artilce on jedi mind tricks
So unfair just because our corpus callosum is relatively smaller.
Comment by: Gary Means
55I found your blog while looking for more information on Mark Driscoll. I live in the Seattle area and have been following the recent controversy surrounding Mark’s recent blog comments. He was on the local news tonight attempting to defend his position.
I have heard stories of his misogynistic attitudes for quite some time. So tonight I did a little more investigation. I’ve put up two posts on my blog that reference two articles on Mark. One is from a local paper, the other from Salon. They include many quotes from Mark.
Especially interesting were ideas like this: “Women will be saved by going back to that role that God has chosen for them.” (having babies and being quietly subservient to their husbands)
“Every single book in your Bible is written by a man… Priest[hood] is reserved exclusively for godly men.”;
“There is no occasion where women led a society and were its heads and the men complied and followed. … It’s a matter of Biblical creation.”.
Mark also views childbirth as an important form of growng the church and encourages all women in the church to quit their jobs and to have as many babies as possible. Here’s a quote from a woman in the church:
“My life is much harder, not easier, now that I’m a Christian,” she says, clenching her teeth against [her infant daughter's] droning whine. “We had originally planned not to have kids, but now we have to do our best to repopulate our city with Christians…..”It’s not what I ever imagined,” she tells me, “or even what I ever wanted, but it’s my duty now, and I have to learn to live with that.”
Comment by: bianca
56One thing I keep wondering about though, is why do we as a culture continue to place pastors (and their wives and their children) in fragile fishbowls far above us on rickety pedestals? One pastor behaves badly, another one speaks foolishly, and somewhere else yet another delivers a boring diatribe… Why do we ascribe such power to pastors, that when they do something remarkably human, we are surprised? Perhaps its terribly off-topic… just been on my mind in the midst of many recent conversations…
Comment by: Rose
57Much has been said on the inappropriateness of Driscoll’s comments. I just read Gary Means (55) blog on this. The amount of sexualized, objectifying and demeaning comments about women is more than disturbing. I hope there will be a continual exposure in our local media to not give him a pass on this topic.
As a woman pastor in the same city, I am deeply offended by Mark Driscoll. I am more concerned with the representation of his positions as being those of the evangelical community at large. Here is an example of an email I received from a 28 year old young woman living in San Francisco:
“Have you heard of this guy?? He’s a pastor or whatever in Seattle and is a total pig. Outrageous!!! You should post on his blog.
ugh”
I do not want to be associated with this kind of Christianity. I am a Christ follower who believes that for freedom Christ died and that means for everyone…man, woman, slave, free, black, white, for all.
Where is the outrage for this kind of diatribe?
Comment by: Benjamin Ady
58helen–how late do I have to stay up in order to see the friday video?
Have you found out how to let everybody post images yet?
Comment by: Corrie
59Bianca, good questions.
My initial thought is that these same men bully those under them with their spiritual “authority”. They use the pulpit to bully and subdue and put those under them in their place. They use their position to shut people up and to cover over anything that would threaten their positions of power. These sorts of pastors need to be held accountable for their words and actions. It is not that I am surprised. These things should never be. They give all the good pastors a bad name. If you have ever read the book, “A Subtle Power Of Spiritual Abuse” by Jeff Van Vonderan, you would know the techniques of such people.
Comment by: NCxian
60This is is something that often crosses my mind as well, bianca. It is something that seems to exist more in certain Christian traditions than others. Certainly the current crop of fundamentalist Christians seem to have a powerful sense of the “authority” and “anointing” of the leadership of the church.
One of the more interesting things that I have found at this blog is how folks who have left very conservative churches still harbor this notion that pastors are “super-Christian”–have extraordinary status as representing God, or Christanity or a local church. The view of that person as especially good has changed 180 degrees, of course, but the notion of the special status seems to linger. It must be something that is hard to jettison. I wonder what leads a person to allow another person to have any kind of authority over their spirituality in the first place? Perhaps some folks are just constitutional more comfortable with “submission” than others? (Same thing that draws folks, for example, to the military?) But, in the case of a church, what benefits does it provide for the “submittor”? It befuddles me.
Comment by: Helen
61Ben I appreciate your enthusiasm about partaking in our female jedi mind tricks ;-). I’ll e-mail you a response to a couple of other things you asked.
Gary, thanks for your comments. I’m glad to know this has made the Seattle local news. I hope that will alert the community to the harmful things being taught at Mars Hill.
I also noticed the Salon.com article.I posted the story of that woman who admits she liked her life better before she changed it to fit Mark Driscoll’s idea of what a married woman’s role should be in comment #45 on here.
Rose wrote:
Exactly! Rose I am so sorry that you as a pastor’s wife (and a pastor in your own right) should a) have to put up with comments like Mark Driscoll’s being made publically b) have to put up with seeing him defended by other Christians.
Bianca, you are so right. I think it is part of the childlike vs childish issue I spoke about at the conference and wrote about here in Almost an atheist. My point was that idealizing authority figures is something that is normal for children but we should grow out of it. I think that the way we practise Christianity often encourages people to ‘regress’ or stay at the point where they do this, instead of encouraging them to have a mature adult view of all other adults as fallible peers.
Christine, I love how you picked up on Mark’s lack of advice to pastors who are tempted in the exact way Ted Haggard was tempted. Why does Mark warn pastors to avoid flirtatious women and not say the same about flirtatious men? In churches like his where leadership is limited to men I would have thought it wise to warn male Christian leaders that those men they hang out with a lot might include some who struggle with the same desires as Ted Haggard. Either the male Christian leaders who worked closely with Ted Haggard are covering up that they had suspicions about him; or it’s pretty much impossible for male Christian leaders to know whether those married male Christian leaders they spend a lot of time with are tempted to think about them as MORE than a good friend.
If the latter is the case then why isn’t Mark warning male Christian leaders to be on their guard about other male Christian leaders - rather than assuming “he’s married so nothing could possibly happen between us”.
Comment by: Julie Marie
62The Salon story made me very sad. The transformation from successful career woman to unhappy mother can hardly be what God had in mind.
This sort of transformation happens so slowly you don’t even realize how far down the road you’ve gone until you are stuck in a dead end, feeling like a failure because you do not find the “role God chose for you” fulfilling.
I’m hoping that as the extreme views of Driscoll are broadcast to the Seattle area, they will be seen for what they are and women (and men) will avoid that church. And perhaps, amid the clamor, a woman like the one portrayed in the Salon article will give herself permission to rethink her situation.
*btw, the woman portrayed in the Salon article says that the author misrepresented her and cast her situation in the worst possible light.
Comment by: Helen
63Julie Marie wrote:
Maybe the author did misrepresent her - but either way, this is what the woman would have had to say to try to avoid being very strongly disapproved of within her church for saying the things in the article to a secular reporter.
It’s bad enough to give up things you love because someone says God says you have to. It’s even worse to do all that and then have your fellow church members disapprove of you anyway (because you were too honest with a reporter).
Comment by: Julie Marie
64I suspect that is exactly what happened.
Comment by: Rachel
65I guess Mark Driscoll has never heard of Deborah.
Comment by: David H
66On Jedi mind tricks: I started experimenting with them. I know, not a woman am I (pardon the Yoda joke). But I think I’ve got them working. Everytime someone asks me for something, I just pass my hand in front of their face and say: “You don’t need that. I can go.”
I’ve been trying it on my boss and, admittedly, the first few times he gave me a look and then asked the question again. But the other day he came to me looking for a report I hadn’t done. I passed my hand in front of his face and said: “You don’t need that report. David can go about his business.” He rolled his eyes and told me to get out of his office.
Practice makes perfect.
Comment by: David H
67Never heard of Cleopatra or the Queen of Sheba either. But given his background, I wouldn’t be surprised if he had a selective education.
Comment by: David H
68I have read several places where Driscoll is given some slack for talking openly about sexuality, which might have helped Pastor Ted had there been an avenue for such conversation.
However, in reading stuff that Haggard has written and things written about him, I find that he and Pastor Driscoll use similar “open” language in defining sexuality, the place of women, etc.
To talk a company line about something is not necessarily to be open about what you really think or feel. Just ask Ted Haggard.
This link is to a lengthy article from Harpers in 2005. While the writer obviously does not come from a place of sympathy, he does quote Haggard and his writings extensively. If Driscoll is one of Haggard’s disciples or, perhaps worse yet, vying for the now vacant throne, then he is someone for whom I can cut little slack.
Comment by: Rachel
69I am too, Rose. This statement from the Salon article especially bothered me. Driscoll and his Mars Hills followers epitomize the mounting evangelical youth movement in America.
(sigh) I’m so tired of evangelicals being characterised by the most extreme members of the group. I guess it is just the nature of media that outrageous statements attract attention. If Mark Driscoll had written a thoughtful, balanced and egalitarian article about the genuinely important need for pastors to safeguard against inappropriate relationships, it would probably have attracted little notice.
Clearly, Driscoll says outrageous things on purpose to create controversy. And when people get mad at what he says, he is pleased since he thinks he’s being “persecuted for Christ.” And all this negative attention will only endear him even more to his followers because they will view him as taking a courageous stand for the unpopular “truth.” But as Helen said, we can’t simply let his insensitive and degrading comments go by without a response.
Observing Driscoll, I can’t help but think: What a dramatic contrast to the kindness and humility taught and modeled by Brian McLaren and the other leaders at the conference!
To those of you who saw Driscoll on the Seattle news: Did they interview any other Christian leaders to offer a counterpoint to Driscoll?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
70I would like to see the link to that interview as well
Comment by: Rachel
71Jim, I wonder if you and Rose and some of the other Seattle OTMers should contact the local media and say, “hey, we are here too and we are an alternative evangelical voice to the fundamentalists like Driscoll, please contact us for a response when these things hit the news.” Let them know that you represent the progressive Christian voice and they should come to you also. Kind of like what the “Red Letter Christians” have done in the national media. It has been so wonderful lately to see that when somebody like Robertson or Dobson makes a statement on the national news, they often counterpoint with a clip from Jim Wallis or another Christian progressive.
Comment by: David H
72Comment by: David H
73Above not meant as suggestion, just an attempt.
Comment by: Paul
74What I find incredible is that Mark thinks that those pesky flirtatious women are such a problem. This is merely evidence that he is unsure that he can control himself. People who go through great lengths to avoid any appearance of impropriety are likely tiptoing in the shallows of impropriety, with an occasional plunge. I.E., this is a problem with *him*, not a problem with women. But in foisting his problem off on women, he is exposing himself as a misogynist prick.
I am sick of my faith being hijacked by a bunch of fundamentalist wackos who have perverted the message of Christ into a sledgehammer of oppressions.
I propose it is time we come out of the closet & protest at Mars Hill. How does November 19 sound? After work today I will obtain a website & will set up a mailing list for people who are interested. I’ll post the URL back here.
We’ll need some catchy slogans, some megaphones, some placards, pamphelts to distribute, media presence.
A Chant: “We’re Here. We’re Women. We’re not going anywhere.”
On a T-Shirt: “Mark: Read My Breasts–No Touching!”
A Placard: “Mark Hates Women”
Comment by: Christine
75I think going to the media as counterpoint to “those” evangelicals is a great idea. I’d imagine reporters would be receptive to that. And it would make some difference.
I am often guilty of tarring all evangelicals with the same brush. I guess the solution is to always say “some evangelicals.” It would be better if there were another word, like fundamentalists. But I hesitate to use that word for obvious reasons.
One problem, correct me if I’m wrong, is that the number of “out” evangelicals who are not in the Haggard/Driscoll/Dobson camp appears to be so small.
One of the astonishing things about Jim Henderson is that he is so fearless. And public. Wallis is too, but I don’t sense that he is quite as open to other opinions as Henderson is or as bold about expressing his openness.
I like Wallis very much but my sense of him is that he is still talking pretty much exclusively to Christians, and Henderson is really reaching out in a way that could count. But I haven’t paid much attention to Wallis in recent years.
If you are going to make your presence known, I wish you would be on the lookout for a change that I suspect might be in the offing. Some of the recent polls say a large number of evangelicals prefer being called “Bible believers” because the term evangelicals is getting such a bad rep.
If the media fix on that, it will be hard to dislodge. I think it won’t help your cause at all. Because then evangelicals of the most conservative kind will own the very Bible with their interpretation.
One of the things I loved about the conference was seeing how you used the same Bible to make points that were very different than that of some evangelicals.
Comment by: Helen
76Paul, I think a protest is a great idea! Please do post the URL back here. I will be happy to help you publicize it. I’m not in Seattle but Off The Map is based there and has connections there.
It’s up to you: but I suggest “Mark the misogynist” for some of the signs. I thought about using that as the title for this blog entry.
Comment by: DonnaV
77Paul, thanks for the chuckle….this whole topic just frustrates me & I couldn’t agree more with your statement…
“I am sick of my faith being hijacked by a bunch of fundamentalist wackos who have perverted the message of Christ into a sledgehammer of oppressions.”
Comment by: Helen
78Christine wrote:
I enjoyed that too, Christine. It shows it’s not as simple as, all we have to do is read the Bible and all the answers are clear.
Comment by: Rachel
79Christine, actually Jim Wallis has really been out there in the last couple years and speaking and appealing to very broad audiences. My own sense of the progressive evangelical movement is that it is strong and growing. I don’t see Jim and Off the Map as isolated examples at all. (BTW, I’m the one with long brown hair and the “make poverty history” T-shirt who talked to you briefly in the entry area on Friday morning. I don’t know if you remember me - I know you met a lot of people.)
You might want to check out these sites for more about Wallis and the evangelical progressive movement. I’d love to hear what you think.
Red Letter Christians
God’s Politics Blog
Comment by: Rachelle
80I’m an ordained woman minister in Seattle and have been dealing with the inflamatory and bigoted influence of Mark Driscoll for several years. It breaks my heart to know that he has so much influence in my city. I mourn every time I drive past his church. I truly believe that Mark does not merely represent a different approach to ministry, but that his work in regards to women is evil.
Thank you to everyone who is bringing light into this place of darkness.
Comment by: Jesse
81I don’t like Driscoll because of the same reasons many of you have mentioned, but I really think that the shock that you show (Helen) at his frankness about sex and temptation is uninformed. Many men who want to avoid sexual sin still really struggle with temptation - I know I do - and well-intentioned women don’t seem to understand that struggle and how much it impacts men’s lives. You need to read For Women Only by Shaunti Feldhahn. It will be an eye-opener for you.
Comment by: Thomas E. Ward, Jr.
82Helen, Jim,
I don’t know Mark Driscoll personally. I am not his follower. I don’t think I have a “man-crush.” I don’t even want to spend time defending the guy. In the past, his rude rhetoric aimed at Brian McLaren and others enraged me.
And, no, Jim, I don’t want Helen to shut up. Please don’t put words in my mouth. My comment (#39) wasn’t intended to be inflammatory or derogatory. But it sure sounded like yours was.
By the way, Helen, Mark’s openness doesn’t help me. His views of women are not my views. To the contrary, it actually makes me wonder why he says such stupid stuff. Like Ted Haggard and you and me (and Jim too), Mark’s a terminally imperfect person. He comes from a long line of sexist, murderous, lying, cowardly men like Abraham, Moses, David, Peter, and Paul.
Peace to you.
Tom
Comment by: Thomas E. Ward, Jr.
83If it matters to anyone, here’s the corrected link to what I’ve said about Driscoll’s “rude rhetoric aimed at Brian McLaren and others…”, something I mentioned in comment 82.
Comment by: Helen
84Jesse, you will see that I disagree with you on a number of points - however, I appreciate you taking time to share your opinion here and to recommend a book you thought would be helpful to me.
In fact I am not uninformed - I listen to New Life Live a lot and they talk about men being tempted in this area a lot on there. The host co-wrote Every Man’s Battle and put together the Every Man’s Battle workshop to help me overcome sexual additions.
Jesse my point is, if men are so easily tempted in this area, the last thing Mark Driscoll should do is continually talk about it in relatively detailed ways. Words are powerful and surely if they pertain to an area of temptation they are even more powerful. Why Mark doesn’t realize this mystifies me. Or maybe it doesn’t - because I haven’t read anything by him which indicates he understands addictions and how to deal with them.
I’m not ’shocked’ by Mark Driscoll’s frankness. One of the benefits of reading an an atheist discussion board for over five years now is that I am beyond being shocked at what Christians consider ‘frank’ talk.
I read some Amazon reviews of Shaunti Feldhahn’s book. It sounds like it’s the same-old same-old evangelical Christian advice to women. Here’s one review:
I don’t want to be depressed or angry and it sounds like I’ve heard it all before so, with all due respect, I think I’ll give this book a miss.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
85Thomas
Sorry you felt I was putting words in your mouth. I wasn’t.
Comment by: Helen
86Thanks Thomas. Jim does like to be provocative - you got that right.
Comment by: Rachel
87AMEN!
Comment by: Corrie
88I am wondering what women are so tempted by that we make big deals about it and write volume after volumes of books about it? I mean, why would God cause men to be unable to control themselves in the area of their sexuality unless the moon, jupiter, the sun and the earth were all in alignment (does that ever happen?).
I am getting the message that guys were made by God to be so overly sexualized that unless they take drastic measures protecting themselves from gaggles of horny women who constantly throw themselves at them, they are being ripped to shreds in battle every minute of every day. I can’t imagine that the bible is so silent on this concept?
I know that this culture is obsessed with sex but does the church have to be? Can we not rise above this culture and show them a better way? Sex is important but the Bible never even hints that men have an especially hard time controlling themselves in this one area. I have yet to find one verse in the Bible that puts any sort of burden on any other outside source or person to keep one’s self pure.
In fact, the bible says the tongue (James 3:8) is the only MEMBER that an individual is unable to control. The Bible clearly teaches that the tongue is the member that we have to wrestle with and that we have to do constant battle with.
I am undone at the sight of brownies. And since I am a daughter of Eve, we women are more tempted by our line of sight than men. Even was tempted by the fruit she saw. You guys just wouldn’t understand what it is like for us women to go out into the world every day and be tempted by the things shoved right into our faces.
I think that if the guys would take care to not eat their brownies in the sight of us women, it would be a good thing. Many a woman has been undone by the sight of a careless guy who has let himself go by eating a pan of brownies. Don’t they understand? I am not blaming it on you guys if a woman stumbles and gives into the almost uncontrollable desire to eat a whole pan of brownies. I am just saying that you might not be helping.
Really, one would think that the ones who claim to have the corner on the market on theological understanding would at least be consistant and stop making excuses. Paul told Timothy to treat the young women as sisters. Obviously, Paul and Timothy didn’t think it was impossible for men and women to put aside sexual thoughts for one second and be civil.
As the mother of 6 girls, it really scares me that our churches are filled with men who can barely control themselves. And these are men confessing to be believers. I KNOW that is not true but if I went by what I read in the blogosphere, I would think it was. Are my daughters safe? For that matter, are my 4 sons safe?
I thought that Paul said the cure for sexual immorality is marriage? Why don’t we believe it? I know. It may be too simplistic but the irony is that this is the only subject that I would get flack from for interpreting the Bible for what it really says. In this one area, the theologically astute get wiggle room when it comes to what the Bible say.
No, I am not a guy, so I don’t know what it is like to be a guy. And I know that guys are wired differently. I am not denying that. But, otoh, guys are not women so I really wish that some guys would stop telling us women how unsexual we are. How would they know?
I have been tempted more than a few times by the sight of a stud-muffin. Contrary to popular belief, many women like to look at a man’s body and we are turned on by looking. Shall I reference SOS where the Shunamite describes her lover’s body? Her eyes were definitely taking in some nice scenery.
I am seeing a real need for reform in the area of our thinking especially after reading that book review on Amazon.
Comment by: Helen
89Corrie wrote:
I wonder if Mark Driscoll ever preaches on controlling the tongue. It would be interesting to see what he says about it.
I quite agree about those brownie carrying men - STAY AWAY FROM THEM Corrie! Don’t even answer your cellphone if one calls you, not even if he’s in trouble!!
Comment by: lisa w.
90Well, my comment is late in the discussion but here it goes:
An article was published in the “Stranger” of all places last spring which compares MarsHill to Trinity United Methodist is here In the last paragraph Rich Lang of Trinity MC in Ballard says this,
The writer also discusses reasons why young women seem to overlook the anti-female sentiments: they’re either not paying attention or need the structure so much they are willing to overlook Mark’s comments.
I was exposed to a very conservative version of Christianity during college years. I managed to take what worked and overlooked what didn’t fit. I wasn’t thinking about marriage so certain aspects just didn’t apply.
My prayer for the women of Mars Hill is that they will take what they need and get the hell out of there, that they will grow up faster. My faith is that God will burn through the crap and reach people where they are with what they need.
I anticipate that Mark will fall away of his own arrogant weight and will live to regret his behavior and someday turn towards women and apologize profusely.
“Dogma can in no way limit a limitless God”
Flannery Oconner
Comment by: Doreen
91Corrie wrote
Whenever I try to have philosophical & theological discussions about why (some) men seem so oversexed, I get the following:
- men’s motors get going much more than women’s by visual things; women need a relationship (not me, I’m with you on the brownies)
- men were made to cast their seed widely so they can’t help it
- it’s women’s faults
- it’s the media’s fault
While there may be more scientific proof to sexual drive than to, say, the genetic basis of other things, an addiction is an addiction. As a recovering addict, I’m not saying it’s easy. I have never blamed my addictions on the media or my genes or anything.
I’m really tired of blame shifting. Where’s the personal responsibility gone?
Comment by: Benjamin Ady
92do James’ words about the tongue, originally written in a time when writing was for the privileged few, now apply to our use of the blogosphere as well?
I’m rather of the opinion that men end up with the wife they deserve, so I think Mark should rather be saying “hey, guys, if you find your wife to be physically unattractive, and sexually unavailable, perhaps you should look in the mirror and say to yourself “Self, what is it about me that has helped to lead to this situation?” (I have the creepy sensation that I could get in some trouble with certain individuals over this comment. so please feel free to tell me where I’m totally off base!)
Comment by: Marty G.
93Wow. This commenting on Driscoll has really taken off. I have no more to add. What blows me away is that churches like Driscoll’s and Joel Osteen’s and others attract so many people. It’s scary to think about that many people being deceived en masse. I guess it’s like one of my old pastors used to say…”The brightest light attracts the most bugs.” What he didn’t say was…”And eventually kills ‘em.”
That was all me.
Comment by: People Against Fundamentalism » Take Action on Nov 19: Mark the Misogynist and Mars Hill
94 11/11/06 1:25 AM | Comment Link |[...] ‘Preaching’ may be too staid of a term. He has been relishing in his misogyny, rolling around in it like a feline in catnip. His latest women-bashing came in a blog post about former pastor (and former head of the Christian umbrella organization National Association of Evangelicals) Ted Haggard’s marital infidelity. As is typical with misogynists and other abusers, Mark blamed women for the terribly hard time pastors have controlling their sexual urges: “It is not uncommon to meet pastors’ wives who really let themselves go…” The post makes for an interesting read; Helen, over at Conversation at the Edge dissected it well, so I won’t rehash it here. [...]
Comment by: Paul
95Allright, everyone. Time to turn rhetoric into action. If you live in Seattle, we’re going to picket Mars Hill and Mark the Misogynist on Nov 19. More details & an e-mail list to join are available at http://www.endfundamentalism.org/.
Comment by: JG
96http://conversationattheedge.com/2006/11/07/almost-an-atheist/#comment-3428
Comment by: Helen
97JG, I understand why you would quote that here. Why would I quit one protest because it was ‘unloving’ and yet support this one?
Maybe you’re right and I’m being inconsistent. But to me this is very different from the protest I was involved in six years ago. That one was simply based on “this teaching opposes what WE think the Bible teaches”. End of story.
This one is about opposing Mark Driscoll’s teaching because it hurts women.
It is more complicated than this - as it always is. If you think I’m being inconsistent, maybe I am.
One thing I can say is, that this time I am making my own decision to say “this matters” - rather than simply going along with what I was taught. We all choose our battles and we all decide what it means to ‘love God and love others’. I own my choices; I realize that other people will disagree with them.
Thanks for your comment, JG.
Comment by: Corrie
98Doreen, good points. Not only “where is the personal responsibility” but where is self-denial and the practice of putting the needs of others above one’s self?
I was thinking about this and the people who are the most vocal about men and their wild sex drives are comps. They use it to unduly burden women and make them feel as if there is something wrong with them. These same people believe very strongly in the submission of the wife to the husband. Now, where do you hear them preaching about self-sacrificial love for their wives? Where is the laying down of their lives? Does this only mean that they would take a bullet for their wives? No! It means they deny themselves.
I have a feeling that many of these men were promiscuous before marriage and they never learned self-control or denial. That is my theory. I was not at all pure before marriage and I didn’t become a Christian until I was 23.
With marriage and sex comes children. Priorities shift and it isn’t always about us. Where is the preaching on denying one’s self and putting other’s “needs” above our own? I hear a lot of it aimed at me, a woman but when it comes to this issue I don’t hear much in regard to men.
What about the relationship between lack of self-denial and the thought that we are basically unable to bring our sex drives under the control of the Holy Spirit and sexual immorality? Has that thought ever been considered? I didn’t find that in Mark’s bullet points.
In an age when people are whining about the “feminization” of the church why are we not hearing more about denying one’s self? I will tell you, it is not that the church is too sentimental and “weak” and girly and that is why men stay away. It is because being a Christian means you prefer others above your own self, it means self-denial, it means self-sacrifice, it means looking at our own selves and seeing that the problem lies with us. In short, it means that one has to take personal responsibility and grow up.
Benjamin, you don’t have to get creeped out. I agree with you. There are many men who have lousy sex lives that would do well to look in the mirror to find the problem. I am not saying it goes for all men or even most men but many men. A woman feels used when she is ignored, neglected and shelved and then taken off of that shelf only to be used as a thing for urges to be released. Maybe cultivating a little intimacy in the marriage relationship will lead to more intimacy in the bedroom? And maybe more women would like sex if they didn’t feel so utterly mistreated and used.
Comment by: Paul
99‘Love’ is all nice and good and appropriate for *theological* issues. But this is an issue of justice and oppression, not mere theological disagreement. Men like Mark who get their kicks out of oppressing women need to be stopped. They are abusive. They are the pharisees of our day. They are the modern day Brood of Vipers.
Comment by: Rachel
100Here is a link to a blog article about Mark Driscoll & Mars Hill from Christians for Biblical Equality. It was written a few months before the latest controversy, in response to the Salon article.
Comment by: Helen
101I reposted Paul’s comments about organizing a protest here:
November 19 protest against Mars Hill Church
If you have comments specifically about the protest please post them there.
Comment by: An ex-Mars Hill member
102Hello,
I wanted to chime in here and say that I at first related to Mr. Driscoll. A few years ago I attended a Men’s retreat and sat in on a sermon that he gave for married men only.
I was pretty shocked when he launched into a long explaination of why our wives should make themselves available for anal sex when they are on their monthly cylcles or if they are pregnant or otherwise vaginally unavailable. I confess that at first I was a bit too excited by the prospect and even felt anger at my wife for not agreeing. Lets just say I was in the dog house for quite a while.
My family and I no longer attend the church, but I still struggle with the feelings of unadequacy that was instilled in me by Mr. Driscoll’s teaching. I was convinced for a long time that I am not much of a providor and that I am simply not a good enough man for my family. I didn’t feel that way before and now I still do. I am in counceling for it and I want to be the best dad and husband I can. I do not think Mr. Driscoll is aware of how harmful his comments are to men. Allot has been said about his affect on women but I want everyone to know it’s men too.
Comment by: Rose
103Umbelievable …please ex-Mars Hill member don’t take this wrong but are you serious? Can you tell us where this retreat was and when? Do you know if it was recorded?
Comment by: An ex-Mars Hill member
104Dear Rose, I wish I was kidding. The worse part for me was I pressured my wife in this direction and tho she’s forgiven me I still am needing to forgive myself. I am ashamed but all I can explain is that Mr. Driscoll get’s in your head and is very pursuasive. I do not think he meant it for bad and was only trying to help, but it made me have allot of lustful fantasies I otherwise would not have. I believed for a long time that my wife’s purpose is to please me sexually because its what is taught at the church. But I now know that my own urges are my own responsibility to control.
The retreat was back in 2004. It was at a retreat camp down Mount Rainier. I do not know of it was recorded or not but I do remember some guys who were not married tried to sit in on the sermon but were asked to leave do to it being a sensitive topic nature which I am at least glad for and think was wise. So I doubt they would have the sermon out for the public. I will say that a talk by Pastor Lief was good and edyifing about believers not knowing scripture well enough, so I did get something good from going. But I never did go to another retreat there.
Pray for Mars Hill Church. The people who attend are good people believe in the teaching and I did and my family did.
Comment by: JG
105Many thanks ex-Mars Hill member for your comments, I haven’t had your particular experience but given what I have been through can very much relate to where you are coming from.
What do you think about the planned protest on 19 Nov? Do you think overall in the long term, it will have a positive or negative result?
Comment by: An ex-Mars Hill member
106Dear JG, thanks are you an ex Driscoll follower too? I don’t think the protest will accomplish much except maybe the media attention will be a good thing but I do know that MD isn’t even at that service. They do a video cast of his sermon at that service. But even if he was there he wouldn’t come out and will just crack jokes about it from the pulpit. And you will see lots of debates with members probably. MD’s followers are pretty rabbid to defend him for any cause and you will find most of his defenders will likely be women.
Comment by: Rachel
107Ex Mars Hill member, I’m so sorry to hear that you struggle with feelings of inadequacy as a result of bad teaching. I will pray that you will experience God’s wonderful grace, healing and freedom.
I definitely relate to your story. When our daughter was small, my husband was employed full time and I was employed part time outside the home. Our combined income provided us with a modest lifestyle - small rented apartment, one older car, always tight budget. We had loving child care for our daughter and we felt we were good parents and doing our best. What I was not prepared for was all the criticism and disapproval that came with being a “working mom” of a preschool child, especially from my fundamentalist church and family members.
My mother-in-law pointedly told me about a sermon she’d heard preached at her church. The pastor said that in Genesis Adam was cursed to work by the sweat of his brow and Eve was cursed to experience pain in childbirth. Therefore, any husband who did not provide enough for his family for his wife to stay home full time was making her labor under a “double curse.” Personally I felt hurt and indignant at that teaching. But mostly I was grateful that my husband was not sitting there hearing that. How cruel to make a hardworking, loving husband and father feel that he was inadequate and actually putting a curse on his wife because he did not make more money! (BTW, the area we live in had at that time recently been listed as one of the least affordable housing counties in the nation.)
Comment by: JG
108Thanks - no I’m not an ex Driscoll follower, I’m based in the UK and know very little about him.
But I have had both very positive and very negative experiences of church life in a variety of churches in the UK.
As I read your comments I saw my own views and feelings about one church in particular that I am an “ex member” of.
I suspect there are more effective ways to challenge wrong attitudes and teaching than a public protest outside the church, particularly if he won’t even be there.
If the views expressed about MD are true then I believe he will thrive on this sort of attention and noteriety, it is playing into his hands.
I can only express a view from the opposite side of the world - I have not studied his comments and have no particular wish to devote time doing so.
Comment by: Ally
109I am also an “ex” member of Mars Hill church. I have been so harmed by this church and by Mark; I have been trying to reach out and get help for how spiritually crippled I have become, so I posted the below letter yesterday on Steve Camp’s blog. Please, please remember me in your prayers. I am obese, and have suffered such shame and humiliation at Mars Hill, that it’s a wonder I have the courage to leave my house at all now. Whoever wrote above that the church is WAY focused on the physical beauty of women is SPOT ON. What is so discouraging to me is that it wasn’t just the church leadership who treated me like a leper (including, btw, Mark’s wife, who is very beautiful), but many of the congregation as well - this is what alarms me, as I realize more and more how many “little Driscolls” are now being raised up there (and sadly, as the other ex member posted, the worst of them are women!). I have tried attending 6 small groups for the church and at every single one was very blatently shunned for my “gluttony.” The arrogance and rudeness of the leadership is shocking. Ironically, Mark himself was always quite kind to me, way back in the day when the church was young.
________________________
Dear Steve,
Thank you for this post about Mark Driscoll. You raise important points while maintaining a position of grace, which is very instructive to me in my current situation.
I have been a member at Mars Hill church from almost the beginning, and it is time to say my goodbye. I am concerned about several things. Mark has more power than any one pastor should be given. I love him, however over the years I have watched my church evolve into the Church of Mark. Though Mark would never intend this, the church is no longer focused on Jesus of the Bible. It is focused on Mark’s Jesus, Mark’s anecdotes, Mark’s wife, Mark’s children, Mark’s truth.
He has stated several times from the pulpit and on the Member’s forum that though he is not opposed per se to having another pastor preach regularly at Mars Hill, he just has never met another pastor who could fill his shoes. Likewise, a few years ago he told us that he believes himself to be a chosen “apostle.” I believe this is very dangerous: both to a pastor and to a congregation. This thinking inevitably inspires a leader who is larger than life, a Super-Pastor, the vessel of all Truth - while creating a congregation who are unable to think without that pastor’s guidance. In this way, the pastor eventually transcends the congregation’s regard for the Holy Spirit in ministering.
Mark used to regularly, publicly confess to struggling with humility, grace, and legalistic perfectionism. The past few years, I have slowly watched him losing the battle. It grieves me more than I can say. This week, as you are probably aware, Mark’s official response to the Haggard situation was to point out adultery can happen when a pastor’s wife does not keep up her physical appearance and sexual availability. Perhaps this idea has merit and can be explored, but to broach this as a public response to the current scandal displays a woeful and whimsical lack of grace and tact.
Also this last week, Mars Hill laid off several employees due to financial troubles which Mark sternly attributes to an unfaithful congregation. I will not air the dirty laundry in more detail, but I decided once and for all to leave my church when we were informed that they will be releasing a list of members who are not “faithful” givers, in order that they be rebuked within their community groups and come to repentance. A problem with that is that many of us give in cash, myself included, because we do not believe in getting credit from any man or group for our tithes. Also, many who are unable to give substantially give instead in service. Whether they need to come to repentance or not, this issue should remain between Jesus and the believer.
I believe these things are happening because Mark feels extremely empowered by his emerging renown. He is increasingly presenting himself in an unconventional and controversial way in order to further his name. Though he intends to further Christ’s name, the one who is getting the attention here is Mark. Ultimately this is at the expense and detriment of his church body, and it has intensified into a steady crescendo the more famous he becomes.
I believe I can answer your question about what Mark would say if a member were to approach him and say “I don’t like your church, therefore I am going to start my own.” He would say, “Get out, we don’t want your kind here, because we only want those who love Jesus.” In other words, all of us as members know that the ultimate blasphemy is to disagree with Mark. I have seen so many members ousted for simply asking questions, weighing his theology, and inquiring about his often-harsh deliveries — they have been ousted for “not loving Jesus.” We know better than to question Mark, ever. Any question is considered “causing division.” This is unfortunate, given that Mark will no longer talk to members. Years ago, Mark would clear out an afternoon to address the concerns of any one of his flock. Now, even his old friends cannot reach him. Everything is intercepted by assistants and never gets to him. He has become like Elvis: sheltered, a myth, legendary, the King of modern Christendom.
I will close by saying that Mark’s condemnation of any truth but his own has left me spiritually crippled. I now realize that Mark’s Truth, instead of feeding me, has eaten me from the inside out. When there is no room for any reality but one very strong leader’s, when your only choice is to follow him completely, all or nothing, you begin to hear only his voice. After a few years of being required, as a member, to take Mark’s word for everything, I cannot open my Bible. I cannot open it without automatically thinking “I need Mark to tell me what this means.” I cannot open it without seeing a Jesus there who is angry, harsh, who wants to punish me because I don’t love Him enough. The grace and love that I once rejoiced in has slowly been replaced by a solid conviction of condemnation, of never bearing enough fruit to possibly be acceptable to Jesus.
Mark is not a bad man. He is actually a very kind person - in person. But when he gets on that stage, Mark the hipster, the pied piper of all Truth, takes over. Please pray for him, for the congregation of my church, and finally for me. I love Mark as my brother, but I have been very profoundly injured by him. I do believe that God has the power and desire to heal me from the damage that Mark has inadvertently done to me, and I pray for that day to come soon.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
110Not all of you may be aware that Driscoll is currently one of only 4 religious leaders who write a monthly column for the largest paper in Seattle. He is the Christian Representative. That in itself makes this a public issue. While Jesus was not a politician he certainly was political frequently setting his kingdom apart from the Jews and Romans.
Making public statements about what is real and right is the duty of followers of Jesus. The outcome is not whats important- Obedience is
Comment by: Helen
111Ally and ex-Mars Hill Member, thank you for sharing your stories with us. I am so sorry for what you have been through. I hope you do both find healing soon.
Comment by: Helen
112Jim wrote:
I just discovered that yesterday when I was looking him up in Google.
Comment by: Rachel
113Thank you for pointing that out, Jim. That information helps to clarify why a public demonstration is needed.
Comment by: Rachel
114Ally, I am so heartbroken to hear of the cruel way you were treated at a place that should have been a refuge of love and grace. Your thoughtful and well written letter was amazingly gracious and forgiving in light of all you have experienced. I’m glad you have the courage to speak up and to leave Mars Hill. You are clearly a kind hearted person and a very gifted writer. I will pray that you will experience the love and healing of Jesus in a powerful way and that you will find a faith community where you will be embraced and appreciated.
Comment by: iggy
115This article is a bit “male bashing” which is just as bad as misogny… being a male… really all we do is think aobut sex… yet if one man stands and says I turned down illicit sex and am still a man… then we men win… get it… it is about men keeping pure… and if men keep pure…then more women will also… it is about treating women with respect… often with more than they have for themselves! Which is obvious by the example Mark used… and i have seen and experienced personally…
Please be a peacemaker and not one bent on being divisive…
Blessings,
iggy
Comment by: Rachel
116Iggy, did you read Ally’s personal account - comment #109?
Comment by: Helen
117With so many Christians praising Mark Driscoll’s honesty and bluntness I’m pleased to see that Phil Johnson (executive director of John MacArthur’s ministry Grace to You) is critical of his coarse language:
Comment by: David H
118Reposted from Churchrater blog:
I need to be careful imitating Christ in the Matthew 23 way. He did know the intent of people’s hearts.
I believe it is important to say that what Haggard (and those with similar beliefs) stands for does not represent the Jesus I know. To be silent in the face of that is to give him human approval for what he does. It is likewise to say why I think he is wrong and, more importantly, what Jesus indicates pretty strongly is right.
But for me there is a huge step between not remaining silent and outright condemnation. Jesus may have done it, but I’m just a pale imitation of him.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
119And this from a follower of fellow conservative John MacArthur
Comment by: Lisa w.
120I was passively disgusted by what I have heard lately and read here, but after reading comment # 102 I am actively disgusted! Not to mention Ally’s comments! I will do whatever I can to participate in the protest on the 19th. Enough of this craziness!
Comment by: Lisa w.
121I liked what I read from Naimas on another site:
Comment by: Corrie
122” I was pretty shocked when he launched into a long explaination of why our wives should make themselves available for anal sex when they are on their monthly cylcles or if they are pregnant or otherwise vaginally unavailable. I confess that at first I was a bit too excited by the prospect and even felt anger at my wife for not agreeing. Lets just say I was in the dog house for quite a while.”
This is disgusting and I am sorry that you and your wife are now having to purge yourselves of such disgusting advice. I pray the Lord speeds the healing in your marriage and builds the trust in you wife that she ought to have in you.
I don’t doubt you but I find this incredible. Does anyone else know if Mark advocates for anal sex while their wives are menstruating or after childbirth? Could somone confirm this? If this is true, then he has a more degrading view of women than I originally believed.
I wonder if Mark would submit himself to anal sex so he could empathize with the whole experience? I mean, he has an anus, right? I don’t want to get into it but this sort of stuff is right out of the playbooks for porn films. And, yes, it is possible for a woman to have anal sex with a man if she sports a certain sort of sex toy. (Sorry to be so graphic but what is good for the goose is good for the gander!) Does anyone else find this truly bizarre in the wake of his writings concerning Ted Haggard?
A man cannot control himself for one week? Could someone please verify this? Do any of his followers have anything to write in support of this teaching? Please, don’t be shy concerning this issue.
I had a good friend whose husband told her it was her duty to submit to anal sex in the hospital after her babies were born. He said he couldn’t go without and he used the Bible to support his assertion. Can you imagine? Just delivering a 10 lb. baby and having to have anal sex?
God have mercy on us all. I feel like vomiting. What about our daughters? Are they safe if this sort of garbage is being spewed from our religious leaders? Are our daughters nothing more than bodies with various holes that can be used for gratification?
I have to ask: What is the difference between anal sex with a woman and anal sex with a man? Is this what God intended for that area of the body? Is this in the Song of Solomon? Is this what he meant when he said that wives should make themselves available to their husbands according to Song of Songs? Am I missing something? Is anal sex in the Song of Songs?
I am NO prude when it comes to sex but if this is indeed what Mark is teaching to men, he must be marked and avoided.
Where is the self-sacrificing denial of these men of God? How is this not defiling of the marriage bed? How is this healthy for the woman? Is there not one shred of concern for the damage that this can cause to one’s wife?
Shameful. I am sickened.
Comment by: Corrie
123Ally,
I am so sorry that you have been treated so abusively by fellow members in Christ. It makes me sick. It is nothing more than spiritual abuse. If someone truly cared about your weight they would encourage you and love you and not shun you. Also, what happened to giving your gifts in private? What kind of church makes public the giving of its members? Could it be the giving is suffering and it could be that God is discipling? Naah! It must be that the members are unfaithful.
Comment by: Corrie
124I just wrote to the elders of Mars Hill to find out if this teaching of anal sex is being taught to the men who attend that church.
Comment by: benjamin ady
125Iggy, with all due respect this
and this
is crap. It is not respectful toward one’s wife to brag about how one has done only the bare minimum and (somehow, so “manfully”) resisted offers of illicit sex. As a man, I’m opting *way* out of the antecendent for both of your “we”s.
Comment by: lisa w.
126corrie:
Comment #104 offers more detail about the origination of the sex therapy teachings of MD as described in #102.
Thanks for requesting confirmation from the elders. I for one, believe the comment by ‘ex-mars hill member”
Comment by: Ally
127Thank you to everyone who has posted such supportive and kind things. “Ex-member” is my husband, who also attended Mars Hill for several years. I can say firsthand that when he came back from that retreat, we had some difficult times. He is harder on himself than he needs to be, and I do ask that you remember him in prayer. He is a good man with a wonderful heart that he loves me with all of.
This is a very shameful topic for us, and I do not blame him for attempting to initiate what he did based on that retreat; I do however blame Mark. What Grace Driscoll “puts out” for her husband when she is on her period, etc., is her own business. Not sure why Mark felt at liberty to share it with a packed room full of men.
However, I believe the anal sex thing is really just the pinnacle of the issue - it’s the underlying belief system that is the most destructive thing. One thing I do know is that Mark didn’t suggest this kind of sex should be done if the wife isn’t willing. BUT the problem is in the strong implication that the wife should consider it in honor of her husband’s needs. That is the more insidious thing. We can say that a pastor encouraging anal sex is outragious, and it is, but it is the planting of the idea that it should be considered that is more dangerous.
A female friend of mine in the church really helped me in recognizing the absurdity of the whole thing (she and her husband have quit the church as well). Her husband would not leave her alone about the anal sex issue after the retreat. It was a source of half-hearted joking between them, but he was still kind of pressuring her to do it by constantly “ribbing” her about it. Thankfully she and I were able to support each other through that and help mirror the craziness of it to one another - ultimately to be able to really stand up to our husbands, even, actually, forbidding them to attend any more men’s retreats or even Bible studies. Yes, we truly put our wifely foot(s) down after that! (I threatened to leave if he ever attended one of these again, and I meant it.)
But if it weren’t for her, I am not sure. I was very much under Mark’s spell, had a ton of shame I was carrying because of the weight issue, and feeling so incredibly NOT feminine and just so unworthy. I probably would have given in if it weren’t for my friend’s support. But seeing HER going through the same thing made me realize how ridiculous this teaching was. I am not against submissiveness per se, but.. what the hell? Is this really what Jesus expects me to think about doing?
Mark has a phrase he often uses about wives: “Is your wife a cancer or a crown?” I was worried that I was a total cancer because I was refusing to consider serving my husband’s needs. I still struggle with the “cancer” thing, because I am in school working toward a career, which is a HUGE no-no at Mars Hill. Yes, a wife’s place is in the home, says Mark. But he doesn’t say it like THAT. He says it in such a way that makes you just totally and utterly believe it. I think it’s his sincerity. There is something about him that truly makes you feel that the word of God is in this man. If you don’t go to the church regularly you wouldn’t understand fully. I still fear that I am possibly forsaking God by forsaking Mark.
I could write about this for hours; there is so so much more to say. Truth be told, I do still dearly love my brother Mark. There are so many women in the church who are so fulfilled in these wifely roles. They are truly “crowns.” Just look at their long hair, their golden children and lovely clothing, cute shoes, svelte figures. Who wouldn’t think they are all men’s brides are meant to be? I do wonder if maybe I just am not cut out for this kind of thing, that maybe I do fall short and just can’t hack it. I have always had very short hair because my hair is too thin to grow much. I am short and squatty and my feet are too big for cute shoes. Maybe I AM a cancer of a wife, I don’t know, I am still very confused. I hopeful that the air will clear the further away I get from the church and whenever I can begin opening my Bible again.
For now, my husband and I just need some new perspective. Thank you for reading our posts. It has helped us both to just publicly say, “this is not okay, at least not for us” and has inspired some really good conversation between us today. I was deeply touched by the things that he wrote on here, and he felt the same about the things I wrote. We are thankful for the way this forum and all of you have blessed us today.
Ally
PS… good luck trying to get a Mars Hill elder to comment on anything (ha!), let alone something like this. Besides, remember that anyone who questions Mark “the Apostle” simply “does not love Jesus” and wouldn’t be worth the time of day.
Comment by: iggy
128Benjamin…
How is a man telling a woman no to an illicit sexual advance not showing her more respect to her than she is having for herself?
How is that “crap” to you?
Really…
Are you saying we should show her respect and have that illicit affair!? I hope not…
How is being man enough to say no… now wrong? That is what I said and said was “crap”….
Wow… confused here…
About personal testimony… they are great… to a degree. And please don’t go into the “do negate me” crap… many have been abused… i was under very legalist teachings for a while in my life… I understand the “being subjected” mentality … even as a man…
Yet, that is still often a matter of ones own perspective… it is in how one own mind may filter the teaching… or words…
I may not agree with Mark on many things.. but as i read things by others and look for myself I see much of it is taken out of context… such as the “wife is the reason Ted Haggard sinned”… Mark did not say that… he said the first thing is “Stay close to Jesus” if that is not done and communication is not happening in a marriage… then we can get issues that are not dealt with ….. which manifest themselves in devieant behavoir…
Yet… someone will just say I am full of “crap”… the go on and on about how men are evil and lack self control… And when I say they should have self control …it is “crap”. There is a big problem as The language that is used… that maybe it is not Mark… but the filter in which one is processing Marks statements…
I can understand that in the case of someone having been abuse that they will have a hard time with some teachings… even biblical ones… I hear all the time about women not able to relate to God as a Male image… yet… Jesus was a man and He was God… so truth needs to be dealt with…
I have an issue with God being a Father… Mine was not that good of a person, let alone a decent man… then he died… so to me I think of a father as a drunk womanizer who makes kids goes to jail and dies in a drunk driving accident… yet the Bible teaches us God is our Father… i pressed into Jesus and found a very worthy Father… i had to let the damage of this world slide away… and replace it…
That is what I see here… the name calling… the hate speech… the protest against Mark… it seems he is the devil incarnate…
In the end the ones protesting are no different than Mark…
hate is not a Christian value… in any form.
blessings,
iggy
Comment by: iggy
129“Hope to in the future? I am greatly hoping that when I finish my master’s degree, my family and I can get involved full time with an organization that is helping needy people in the 2/3 world. My wife and I are specifically hoping to get involved helping in some way with those who are escaping/have escaped/need to escape sex slavery/sex trafficking.” Benjamin Ady
Interestingly I said much the same thing on another blog… and was ridiculed and told i was being “flippant”. I was also told “Iggy your comments are almost as offensive as Mark’s if I read your words correctly. That’s like saying to a young girl who was molested, quit your crying let’s concentrate on every girl that was raped which is way more important than the little violation you have experienced. I am going to guess you are a white male so I can understand you not getting people abusing power.”
I think that Mark is not much of an issue… while in the greater view ending and protesting the sex slavery/sex trafficking industry is a REAL issue… and one that can save REAL lives…
If one does not want to hear Mark or me or anyone… then do listen to him… don’t read him… don’t go to his church… This is America… the land of free speech… he has a right to say what he wants… just like you have that same right. Why do you think trying to subject him is any different that what is claimed against him?
The name calling… the phrases that sone like he is literally beating women as he is preaching… is way over board… it is really close to slander if you ask me…
Yet… I am full of “crap”… so go ahead… and protest… Mark won’t change… and you will waste the day instead of really doing something… like protesting a pornshop of adult theater…
We seem to like to eat our own… and in the process lose sight of the big picture… the real issue… we chose little battles but lose the war…
A child will be sold for sex… shipped to another country and abuse, raped and live a horrible life… but let’s focus on Mark…
Sorry… my heart aches and i feel a little ill… maybe it is all that “crap” i am full of… for caring for women who are truly in bad situations… and not really caring for women who choose to like to go to Marks church… please…. do not demean their feelings… please…
Here is one comment i received on another blog…
“Iggy your comments are almost as offensive as Mark’s if I read your words correctly. That’s like saying to a young girl who was molested, quit your crying let’s concentrate on every girl that was raped which is way more important than the little violation you have experienced. I am going to guess you are a white male so I can understand you not getting people abusing power. I would ask that you try to understand that concept before being quick to judge how much time one has on their hands.”
I am saying what scripture teaches…”do not judge anything before the appointed time”.
I may be a man.. but i do understand abuse of power… I write against it often… Yet I see that it is just as wrong to retaliate. To use hate speech.
That’s all go have your fun…
iggy
Comment by: meg
130Ally,
Thanks for your words - a very beautiful person shines through in them. it sounds to me as if this mark driscoll character has a strangely warped idea of marriage. it seems he thinks marriage is about control rather than about freedom and love. this ‘is your wife a cancer or a crown’ doesn’t allow people to be HUMAN! for heavens sake, i’m not going to exist in a relationship where i’m expected to be a crown! what utter baloney! to me, the beauty of marriage is that bens sees all of me - the ugly, the dark, the evil - and loves me.
and going back to mark d’s comment which helen posted at the top .. 127 comments up! … having a beautiful wife and one’s share in the eight children has nothing to do with one’s ability to resist sexual temptation, in my opinion, and to connect the two puts way too much pressure on the poor wife!! the hideous thing about women in porn is that they are dehumanised, body parts, not revealed as the valuable unique human being that they are. exploitation. yuck.
and mark’s comments about flirtatious women … good god! i’ve been treated very rudely by christian men at points in my life - bens and i went to heritage baptist fellowship, which sounds very like mars hill - a place where men whose lust and secret addictions are out of control can pat each other on the back, blame the women for everything and justify to each other abusive behaviour towards their wives.
Ally, I’m so glad you and your hubby are not at mars hill any more. you are beautiful, valuable and amazing. Being fat or thin isn’t what measures your value. You’re valuable because you’re you, right now, without having to lose a single pound!!!!
Iggy, you said:
A few comments. You talk about biblical teachings - there are beautiful words in the bible about god’s motherly, womanly side - ‘as a mother comforts her child, so shall i comfort you’ (isaiah) … and also in the bible, it says that god created man and woman in his own image - and in the bible is the story of the woman at the well - perhaps one of mr driscoll’s ‘flirtatious women’? whom Jesus honoured, respected and loved. It seems to me that when you mention ‘biblical teachings’ and ‘truth that has to be dealt with’ you are speaking as if there is only one idea or thought or reflection in the bible on the topic of god having a male image, rather than many. i don;t think jesus or the bible require an abused woman to relate to a particularly male image of god. there’s plenty of room in the bible for us to seek and know god in a feminine, womanly way. what do you think?
Comment by: Helen
131Ally, I am glad you have found some kindness and support here. It seems that one of the things we can provide is a refuge for people who have been hurt by Christians and/or churches. Many of us can relate.
I think you may well be right that no-one in an official position at Mars Hill will verify that Mark taught what your husband heard. However you said you know at least one other man who was there and heard it too, right? How many people do you know who would be willing to say (maybe anonymously) that Mark did teach that at the retreat?
I also agree with you the real problem is not the exact details of what Mark recommended but the fact that he seems to present a distorted view of marriage in which men have NEEDS it is the duty of their wives to take care of. You said he did say “if wives are willing” - it sounds like he stops short of rape, but he doesn’t encourage the appropriate balance he should be encouraging which is: husbands and wives - most likely one of you will want to be sexually intimate more than the other - there will not be an exact match. To have a great marriage, you need to respect each other; if you are the one with the higher desire, then go ahead and do whatever you can to help your spouse enjoy being intimate with you. Pushing him/her to meet your needs is likely to be very counterproductive. Even if he/she complies outwardly he/she will feel used and violated and you will destroy whatever emotional relationship you had. I listen to New Life Life all the time; I hear people discussing their unhappy marriages on every program. They have a resource on their site about sex in marriage which presents a much more balanced conservative Christian view of it than what Mark seems to teach. Here’s an excerpt from Holy and Healthy Sex in Marriage: Part IV:
I don’t necessarily agree with everything this author writes; but what I love is the respect he encourages men to have for their wives. I would love to see something by Mark Driscoll which indicates he encourages husbands to have deep respect for their wives - the sort of respect that means they would never put inappropriate pressure on their wife to ‘meet my needs!’
Anyway, how do single men handle Mark’s teaching? What does Mark say they are supposed to do with their NEEDS that they have no way of meeting? I think I’ve heard that he says “Get married!” - which is another dangerous teaching because it encourages men to rush into marriage for very selfish reasons. But even so it takes time to go from single to married. In the meantime what are they supposed to do? If married men can’t survive the length of a woman’s period without sex, how are single men supposed to survive a life of no sex?
(I’m not sure I want a detailed answer - this more a rhetorical wondering about how single men at Mars Hill feel in view of Mark Driscoll’s teachings about married men’s needs. Since it’s not as if these ‘needs’ begin when they say yes at the altar.)
Ally, since you mentioned weight issues, I’ll just add that New Life’s teaching about weight issues is awesome (imo) - because they teach that those who struggle with weight issues often do so for emotional reasons. It’s not simply a matter of “Just say no to food!”
If a pastor’s wife ‘lets herself go’ - to use Mark Driscoll’s phrase - e.g. gains weight, perhaps; it’s probably because she is unhappy. Why might she be unhappy? Could it be anything to do with how her husband is treating her? Quite possibly if he’s a pastor with lots of demands on him all the time. Maybe she’s being neglected. If so then to say to her “The state of your marriage is your fault for ‘letting yourself go’” is the ultimate cruelty and has things backwards.
Anyway, it’s so unBiblical to focus on the outward beauty of women more than the inward beauty and character qualities!
Comment by: Helen
132iggy, thanks for sharing your honest opinions here.
I think there’s room for you to take a stand against slave trafficking - I hope you do that - and for others to protest hurtful and unkind teachings of Mark Driscoll.
I suggest that you pray God will somehow bring good out of what the protesters do, especially if you have concerns that it will be counterproductive.
Comment by: iggy
133Ally,
Do you think that to ballance the equation is to ignore that the relational part of GOd… is Jesus a man?
Yes, God is spirit and really there is no male/female…that is what is taught if one is in Christ…
But to ingore one part… because one is not “comfortable” is like baking a cake and not puting in all the ingredients because one is not “comfortable” with them… then it is something else… but not a cake.
We need all the ingredients for a healthy growing relationship with Jesus… (Who was a man)
we should not be ashamed or shame others as to what we are… male of female… to shame another is abusive in and of itself. It is still aserting one’s view of righteousness over another.
Helen: I am praying… I pray that if God is using this in someway that if it is for Mark to go through this is brings out a good thing. (I was almost going to say bring out his feminine side but I would most probably be accused of some hideious hate crime… or being full of crap. But really I have a sense of humor. No really!)
I am also praying if this is not of God that it will fall apart before it gets anywhere… maybe a nice cold winter rain… with a heavy wind.
I will admit I have take this to be a “Christian” group… and that they may no be… so please take my comments from that perspective… If this is not a “Christian group” then I have no real opinion… as it makes no difference… as it is coming from a worldly veiwpoint.
Again, as I said, go have your fun, just be properly polite about it and not abuse others or cram your view down someones throat…
iggy
Comment by: Helen
134iggy thanks for praying and thanks for your sincere concern that God’s will be done.
Comment by: Rachel
135Thank you for doing that, Corrie. While I don’t in any way question the honesty of Ex-Mars Hill Member, I think it is important to give the elders a chance to respond. And I certainly hope that they do respond, as you are following the biblical direction to go to your brother directly when you have an offense against him.
I completely agree with the sentiments you voiced in comment #122. Jesus gave dignity and respect to women who had been treated like property by their society. His heart must be broken to see churches established in his name that degrade and devalue women.
Comment by: Rachel
136((Ally)) I’m so sad and angry that you had to listen to such cruel statements. When you begin opening your Bible again, here is a great place to start.
So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. Genesis 1:27
Corrie, you made an important point by asking this question: “Are our daughters nothing more than bodies with various holes that can be used for gratification?” Here is what Jesus had to say about that question.
While he was saying this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts that nursed you!” But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it!” Luke 11:27
As followers of Jesus, our highest calling is to follow him and to use our gifts for his kingdom. Ally, you are a woman with sensitivity and insight. You have a caring, forgiving heart and a gift for communicating on a deep level. I will pray that Jesus will heal the hurt you have experienced at Mars Hill. I can’t wait to see the exciting ways that he will use your talents for his kingdom - Jesus’ kingdom of mercy, grace and love!
Comment by: Rachel
137To Ex-Mars Hill Member aka Ally’s Husband:
You shared that you have felt inadequate and devalued as a husband as a result of your experience at Mars Hill. And I can certainly understand how that would result from such hurtful and unbiblical teaching.
But listen to what your lovely wife has to say about you: “He is a good man with a wonderful heart that he loves me with all of.” That IS the very definition of a good husband - a man who loves his wife with his whole heart. You ARE a wonderful husband! There are many women out there who would give anything to feel genuinely loved by their husbands the way Ally does.
Ally & husband, I would encourage the two of you to check out the website for Christians for Biblical Equality
I would suggest clicking on “Free Articles” and starting out with “Biblical Equality 101.” Ally, if you would like to email me to talk further, Helen can connect us with each other’s email addresses.
Comment by: Marty G.
138A quote from Driscoll’s book Confessions of a Reformission Rev.
The rest of this review and other material related to Mark Driscoll can be found at http://www.challies.com/archives/001863.php
Comment by: Jennifer
139Ally / Ex-MH-Member,
I am an ex-MH member too. I have my own terrible Mark Driscoll story too. For my own reasons, I cant get into it here.
Email me if you’d like to talk.
Jennifer
Comment by: JL
140Oh good grief. Marty G, is your placard at the protest going to read: Mark Driscoll is rude and insensitive to horny masturbating college guys who call his house at 3am!?
Comment by: JL
141Oh, and this is a comment from the site that Marty G references:
Personally, I see a lot of myself in the pathetic kid who called Driscoll in the middle of the night after watching porn, and I can vouch for the fact that a pastoral kick in the teeth of the sort that Driscoll delivered is exactly what some people need.
The criticism of Driscoll’s word choice is a good indicator of the widespread influence of feminism within the church. We’re more concerned with maintaining polite conversation than we are with confronting and rebuking sin. If you think Driscoll is offensive, go read a literal translation of some of the things God said about Israel through the prophets, or Paul’s letters, or Jesus’ words. Sin is vulgar to God, it should be equally vulgar to us. In my view, Driscoll’s aim is to call the ugliness of these acts out from under their veil of attractiveness, and he succeeds brilliantly.
Comment by: Marty G.
142My point, JL, was to show more of the vulgarity of MD. The reviewer may call it brilliant. I don’t. There’s just no need for it. I know MD is a follower of Jesus, but I just can’t picture Jesus handling someone the way MD handled this kid.
Comment by: benjamin ady
143Iggy,
Gonna have to disagree with you about the
It was kind of a revelation for me when I came to realize that hate actually is a Christian value, and even “hate speech”. It started with the little line from Ecclesiastes: “to everything there is a time … a time to hate”. It continued with the realization that God *hates* some things. And finally the realization that Jesus *hated* some things as well. And if his speech to the pharisees “Woe to you … brood of vipers … whitewashed tombs … etc.” doesn’t qualify as hate speech, then not much does. I think God *hates* the way that Ally and ex-mars-hill-member and *so* many others have been treated and used in his name at Mars Hill Church. And I hate it too! In part of Jesus speech from Matthew 23, Jesus says of those whom he clearly hates:
these are words which Mr. Driscoll would do well to take to heart.
Comment by: JL
144From the same book “Confessions” on page 181:
“As the church grows, our pastors and leaders are getting swamped with new people who have very real and urgent needs because they are lost, addicted, perverted, and the like. It is probable that the waves of new people that are pounding our shore will overwhelm our ability to care for both them and our existing church members. So a large team of elders and deacons will use our new technology to track our members and ensure that they are connected, serving, giving and in a learning and/or care group. In this way, we hope to preemptively help our members to live healthy and fruitful lives and avoid crises brought on by sin that went undetected for too long.”
Remember that MD is NOT Jesus. He is merely a man - a sinner - like you & me. Granted his interaction with this young man who called his personal home at 3am was not the loving, tender response that we often demand of pastors. Further reading of his book will show that he understands his inability to deal personally with every member of his flock. Honestly, that’s not his job. Biblically, we see that is why the office of deacon was created: to free the pastors to preach the Gospel while the deacons cared for the sick and needy.
Comment by: Ann
145Let me just state that I have an eating disorder and Mars Hill is doing everything they can to help, the problem is ignorance which they are overcoming through research. Our bodies are Christ’s temple and we are called to care for it as He would. That means not over eating, under eating, drugs or anything harmful to the body as it doesn’t belong to us it belongs to Christ.
Comment by: JG
146Jason Clark
Jim Henderson to Jason Clark:
http://www.jasonclark.ws/2006/11/11/off-the-map-reflections-on-revolutions-conference/#comment-7105
Comment by: Ann
147my comment above is in reference to Ally’s story post 109. Also Mars Hill is working on starting an eating disorder grace group.
Comment by: Ally
148Hi friends,
Wow, thank you to everyone for your kind words! These are so soothing to me, you just have no idea.
I will write more later, but I wanted to say to Jennifer: If you are the Jennifer I think you are (out of all the thousands of Mars Hill people, or ex-Mars Hill people), then I remember how you were treated by Mark. If you are the Jennifer I think you are, I remember how faithful you were in praying for me so many times on the Member’s message board, even though we had never met, and also how faithful and well-informed your biblical answers to mine and others’ questions would be on that forum. You stood out to me as a true example of Christ’s love.
If you are that Jennifer, I also remember what happened to you on that forum, and the witch hunt that was publicly and aggressively played out against you. I will never forget how you and your husband were literally ground to dust then totally eliminated from the church you loved for simply asking clarifying questions of Mark about a blanket issue he felt personally strongly about (which had ZERO biblical foundation).
I have been in awe of your courage and strength in not backing down while completely maintaning your grace and humility. You did not speak at all inappropriately or out of turn, and you were NOT “causing division.” Mark’s unreasonable heavy-handedness with you DID cause division, however. I don’t know if you know this but SO MANY other members agreed with you but were afraid to speak out, myself included. I am sorry. Your integrity and strength have stood out to me and I have relayed your story to many people.
I can’t find your email contact on your blog, but I would like to chat. I just really know you are indeed that Jennifer - intuition, I don’t know. But, either way, please do email me [Ally I removed your address to protect your privacy. I will e-mail it to Jennifer for you]
God’s blessings to you and to everyone here.
Comment by: Ally
149Ann, I wish you all the best and pray that you find the help you ae looking for within the treatment group at church.
I also have an eating disorder, and as you know, if it was as simple as just submitting to Christ, I could add it to the list of ways He has redeemed me and helped me to overcome my old self.
We are indeed called to care for our bodily Temples. We are also called to love one another as we would love ourselves. Due to my obesity, I was shunned by far more people at the church than I was embraced by. I would submit to you that if you are “underweight” or have an eating disorder in the opposite “direction” of mine (mine being obesity), you will not stand out, hence be shamed, in the same way that I do. The very, very thin women in the church are extremely exalted. Mark’s own wife included.
I am not downplaying your struggle, sister, please do not misinterpret. But I have experienced shame and an ungraceful attitude from the majority at church due to being an eyesore. Does Christ shame us into knowing Him or love us into knowing Him? I am still confused about this, thanks to Mark, but I am hopeful that love really IS the answer and not shame.
And if that is the case, then which sin is more egregious? My gluttony or the fact that my church, my fellowship, treats me like human waste because I struggle with a sin more visible than their own? How about this… which would be more glorifying to God in the long run: loving me through my struggle or shaming me even more and making me feel it is the only thing I have to turn to?
Comment by: Ann
150Ally, I don’t know you but I know the “Jennifer” that you are referring too from that forum conversation and there was PLENTY of BIBLICAL foundation. Try reading your Bible and perhaps your eyes and prayerfully your heart will be opened.
Comment by: Ann
151I will be the first to admit that Mar Hill has not been open about eating disorders. I think that is due to ignorance which is being remedied. There are plenty of people that know of my struggle in the church. At this point some would say it is visible. You need to look to the root of your eating disorder and not blame surface junk. Sure the surface junk feeds the illness but it is not the root cause. If one were to say “I am not going to eat so that I may be thin” or “I am going to eat whatever I want because I can” both are very sinful. but perhaps this is a conversation to have away from this board.
Comment by: Ann
152Also it is the responsibility of christians to rebuke fellow Christians of sin in Christ-Like way. Gluttony is sinful and can not be ignored. I’m not very pretty and you know I am shamed of that at church but only when I let Satan in to tell me such things. so what if i’m not pretty, my husband thinks I am so what if there are tons of beautiful women at church, my husband isn’t married to nor does he notice them. I can’t go around blaming my insecurities and shame on my church. My sin is mine and no one else’s and i can’t blame someone just because they said one hurtful thing to me. You are just as likely to get the same treatment in Fred Meyer. People don’t always think before they talk. That is where grace and love and forgiveness come in. Why not tell that person then and there how hurtful they have been. Did you ever try talking to anyone about how you felt you had been treated?
Comment by: iggy
153Bejamin,
Then you through out the teaching not tojudge until thei apopointed time?
Jesus was teaching to Jews under the Law… It was in a very specific contest.
Paul taught do not judge… and pointed out that there is a Judge (Jesus) who will judge all things at their appointed time. At that time then we will be part of the Judgment as we loved God and have not seen Him. I could put the verses here but you seem smart enough to recognize them a find them…
Jesus also said, “Love your enemy” this was meat as love the Romans… the ones in which every Jew alive thought Messiah would destroy… and Jesus said, “Love” them…
Also Ecclesiastes is a peotry book… I may have in it ellements of prophecy and other things but it’s main issue is everything is broken and vain… everything but worshiping God… this is the same everything that has been placed under Jesus feet… including His enemies… that we are to Love… by His command.
God may or may not “hate” how Mark has treated some prople… but then that is up to God to judge that isn’t it?
Hate is not, nor will ever be a Christian value.
God is Love and said the wheat and the tarre will grow together and then at the appointed time will be harvested… it has take me a while myself to understnad this… and as I have now begun to grasp what it means… I will not let go.
Again, “do not judge until the appointed time”… is pretty clear to me.
Blessings,
iggy
Comment by: Ann
154Ally, I think that Christ shows us our shame so that we may love Him more deeply.
Comment by: iggy
155BTW # 138 if that was meant of the things that you are protesting… I do the same thing…
recently I have a friend/neighbor who binge drinks… after the second time I tool him to the hospital for pulling a Bon Scott… he told me, “I think I have a drinking problem.” I said, “nope you are a crunk and almost killed yourself…” I might have even said something about hope it was “a good binge as it should be your last.”
He smiled and said i was right… he need help. It went on from there…
What was Mark supposed to do? Go over and hold his hand? (grin) Go over and get the porno and do a book/porno burning? No he told the boy to be a man and grow up. Which is what i would have done also. I would have said, and i have said, ” do you beleive in Grace? Do you beleive you are forgiven? then say sorry to God (your wife if married) and then walk in the grace of you forgivness… and stop looking at porno and do not do it and call me and whine over it.” Yep I think I might have even said something like that myself.
Get over it and walk in what you believe…. the Truth will set people free… not just being nice. (though I usually am very nice having spent a night at the hospital with my neighbor over his binge drinking)So again though my words may be as mean sounding as Marks… where you there? Do you know the WHOLE STORY?
Then who are you to judge another man’s servant?
Blessings,
iggy
Comment by: Rachel
156Ann, I will be praying for you as you battle your eating disorder. I admire your courage in confronting such a difficult challenge.
Ann, but WHY do you feel ashamed of your looks at church? Could it relate to the attitude there? If women are viewed primarily as the “crown or curse” of their husband, wouldn’t this contribute to the pressure to fit a standard of beauty?
But church is not supposed to be the same as Fred Meyer. It is supposed to be a refuge - a place of love, grace and acceptance. My church is certainly not perfect. But of the things I enjoy about my “20/30 Something” group is that it is a place where people are embraced and valued regardless of physical attributes. I view my church group as a refuge from the larger world where appearance is everything. There are several plus-size people in leadership positions in our group. I would never assume that they are gluttons - I do not know the personal details of their health, family history, etc. And regardless of what issues they may have, we are ALL imperfect people who have struggles and failings. Faith communities should be places where we are valued and encouraged.
If someone is attending a church where they feel marginalized because of physical characteristics, it is completely legitimate for them to leave and find another community where they will be embraced and supported. Ann, let’s not minimize Ally’s pain or scold her for naming the injustice she experienced. In light of all she endured, she has been very gracious in her statements about Mars Hill and its leadership.
Comment by: Helen
157Thanks for your comments, Ann.
This sometimes achieves nothing productive and can lead to getting hurt even more. I would caution people to be very careful about taking this route unless they are sure they are emotionally strong enough to handle whatever responses they might get.
Comment by: Rachel
158Iggy, I appreciate the contribution of everyone who posts here and I try to read and consider what each person has to say. But I have been really struggling to understand your posts. Often when we type about things we care passionately about, it comes out in a hurry. Could you take a minute to proofread your posts before you submit them? Then I can understand them more clearly. Thanks, brother! :-)
Comment by: Corrie
159JL,
Can you explain this comment that you made:
“The criticism of Driscoll’s word choice is a good indicator of the widespread influence of feminism within the church. ”
It seems that anytime anyone has a problem with anything a complementarian person says it is because they are a feminist.
Do you know what? That is just poisoning the well. It is faulty logic.
I am a complementarian in that I believe only men may hold the position of elder in the church. I go to a church with a very strong male leadership. But, you don’t hear any of this demeaning rhetoric and it would be rebuked if you did.
Is the evidence of feminism in the church that people actually have the guts to confront thinking that is demeaning and false concerning women in the light of what scripture says?
It seems that once a person has their mind made up (ie., feminism the big evil of the church) they will only see things that will back up their theory thus causing one to lose their objectivity.
You CAN be a comp and you can call things the way you see it, too. I think Mark’s comments and they way he said them and the timing are not right and that doesn’t make me a feminist.
What do you say about Mark’s teachings on anal sex in marriage when the wife is vaginally unable to have intercourse? Is it a sign of feminism that I find such teachings to be demeaning and not consistent with the Bible’s instructions to men to DIE to themselves and to love sacrificially?
Comment by: JG
160Helen - I agree with you whole heartedly.
But this means it is even more important for those who are strong enough to pursue the issue as they are speaking up not only for themselves but for others also.
And yes - it can be a very painful. Even if (as is often the case) you appear to get nowhere, at least you have tried. And those responsible can’t say “oh, no one told us!”
Comment by: Corrie
161Ally, I agree with your excellent and well-thought out thoughts on the insidious underpinnings of Mark’s teachings on anal sex. It is not the actual being taught be a man of God that ticks me off the most (although it is disgusting and I and my husband would have nothing to do with such a man knowing that this behavior and thinking most often stems from porn) but that it is a lack of honor and respect to the wife and a lack of following God’s commands in DYING to one’s self. It is pure and simple: selfishness.
Where is the teaching on men denying themselves during times of childbirth and illness and menstruation? Is that every taught? After all, they are BIG on those verses in Ephesians 5 about the wife submitting but I never hear about a man’s duty to put his wife ahead of his own “needs”.
And, contrary to what is taught by some “scholars” sex is not what of the things Jesus said was a “need”. Food, clothing, shelter. People are taking a blessing and an intimate expression of love and perverting it after the fashion of Sodom. What was the mindset that would cause Lot to throw his virgin daughters out to the gang of men bent on raping the male guests? That is the mindset that I am talking about.
Comment by: Helen
162Jennifer, thanks for your comment. I e-mailed Ally’s address to you since she wanted you to have it.
I see from your own blog that you were abused by a youth pastor as a teenager - wow, I’m so sorry. My guess is that a place like Mars Hill is not equipped to treat you with the sensitivity that would be appropriate given your history.
Comment by: Helen
163Thanks JG. I certainly wouldn’t want to discourage anyone from speaking up if they feel strong enough to do so. As you say, that way those responsible at least can’t say “No-one told us!”
Comment by: Corrie
164Also, I was reading over at http://bobhyatt.typepad.com/ and an ex-member, a few months back, told about how Mark shared at some men’s gathering/retreat a very intimate detail about his wife Grace and a self-masturbatory act she does while she is….I can’t even say it but it is what you do when you go horseback . The language was so explicit that I cannot even bring myself to say it here.
My question is this: How many men suffer with that image of Grace Driscoll in their heads whenever they see her and are struggling with lust towards her because Mark has been so crass in sharing their very intimate life?
I know that I wouldn’t want my children reading erotica about their mother.
To me this is dishonoring to his own wife. My husband was just in a group of men discussing being a husband. They just discussed sex over the last two Sundays. This is a large group of men. My pastor is very “frank” without being crude and he certainly does not give men the idea that they are sex-crazed animals that can never deny themselves.
If they are starting a group for eating disorders at Mars Hill because our bodies are our temples, then shouldn’t they also be concerned about a sex act that can do some major damage? Talk to any doctor, an anus was not meant for sexual activity. One er doctor told me what he has seen in his practice and it is disgusting. People come into the er with damage from repeated rounds of anal sex.
Why care about eating disorders when you don’t even care about the bodies of those closest to you and the damage your selfishness causes?
Again, am I a feminist and does it mean I have been influenced by feminism because I see the degrading of women as wrong?
Comment by: Ann
165My struggle with beauty has a root much much deeper than Mars Hill. I do have to say there are many obese women and men at mars hill and some that are just overweight. Mars Hill has never made me feel ugly. That comes from childhood and society.
When you attend a large church you need to keep in mind that you may not always be talking with a member or even a Christian so hurtful things can be said. Sometimes people say things without knowing that it hurt the other person. Also the truth can hurt no matter the sin. It does hurt when someone points it out. Yes it should be done in a Christ-Like way. I am sorry for Ally if it was not done that way. I do hope that she has forgiven those people, perhaps even given them a chance to apologize. I don’t understand why a person would leave a church based on a few hurtful words. I am not trying to down play Ally’s experience but point out that even when our feelings are hurt we need to forgive those who have sinned against us and not pout in the corner.
On the anal sex thing, Mark gave a sermon not too long ago, perhaps last year, that talked about times that a man needs to show control, SOME of those times he listed in is sermon are: before marriage, after childbirth or c-section, illness and there were some others that i can’t remember. I’d be happy though to find the sermon and post the link if you want. Mark said what God first said and that is “husbands love your wives”. Women can’t have a “headache” every night either.
After reading a lot of the post from here and the protest site I’m getting the drift that the problem you guys seem to have is not really with Mark or Mars Hill but with God and God’s laws and God’s words. That is all that Mars Hill preaches is God’s word not man’s desires.
Comment by: Ann
166Headship
Ephesians 5:22-33
Preached by Pastor Mark Driscoll, January 5th, 2003
Though the man be as the head, yet is the woman as the heart. -Puritan William Gouge
In Ephesians we have examined how sin separates us from God and each other and how Jesus has
come to take away our sin through His life, death, burial, and resurrection for the sins of His people.
Consequently, by grace it is now possible to be reconciled to God as a Christian and reconciled to God’s
people as the church. The church is supposed to be a countercultural people who do things differently
because they are filled with the Spirit and live under the Headship of Jesus. One of the most noticeable
differences among God’s people is to be an attitude of submission to authority that God has placed over
us (Eph. 5:21), namely the church submitting to Jesus (Eph. 5:24), wives submitting to husbands (Eph.
5:22-33), children submitting to parents (Eph. 6:1-4), and slaves submitting to masters (Eph. 6:5-9). This
teaching of authority and respect for it seems repugnant to our modern ears, which indicates they may be
filled with more worldliness than wisdom.
What is marriage?
According to the Scriptures, marriage is a covenant (Proverbs 2:16, Malachi 2:14b) between one man
and one woman who become one then become flesh for a lifetime (Mark 10:1-12). While there are some
biblical grounds for divorce, the fact that professing American Christians are statistically more likely to
divorce than non-Christians is telling.
What is marriage not?
Marriage is not fornication and/or cohabitation, which is sexual union apart from the marriage covenant.
Marriage is not polygamy, including both the ancient version of multiple wives and the contemporary
version of repeated divorce and remarriage. Marriage is not the sexual joining which occurs in
homosexuality, bisexuality, or bestiality.
What is the process of marriage?
From Moses (Gen. 2:24), to Jesus (Matt. 19:5; Mk. 10:7-8) and Paul (Eph. 5:31) the Bible consistently
teaches that there is a three-fold process for marriage. First, a man should leave his mother and father to
become self sufficient because marriage is for men and not boys. Second, a man must pursue and marry
a woman honorably. Third, the man and woman enjoy physical oneness in the consummation of their
marriage, a precious gift of God given them upon entering their marriage covenant. The many problems
in our day related to marriage
can, in part, be traced to ignoring this wise process, including the curious fact that cohabitating couples
who marry are more likely to divorce than ones who do not.
What does the Bible mean in stating that a husband is a head (Eph. 5:23)?
Every covenant has a head and the man is primarily responsible that the terms of the covenant are kept.
For the best of example of a covenant head, please examine the following Scriptures about Jesus as the
Head of His people: Colossians 1:18, Colossians 2:10, Colossians 2:19; Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 1:22,
Ephesians 4:15, 5:23. Sadly, the failure of many Christians to accept the doctrine of headship and its’
expectation for those in authority is directly related to the common sin of Christians to even ignore Jesus’
authority over them. When the Bible says that the husband is the head of his wife, it is not stating that a
man should be the head, but rather that he simply is, as Jesus is the Head of the church. The only
question, therefore, is whether or not a husband is a good or bad head. A husband who is a good head
will be like Jesus in the following ways:
-he will lead his family toward God’s purposes according to Scripture
-he will take responsibility for things that are not his fault in his family
-he will stoop to serve his wife rather than lord his role over her
-he will be loving, patient, and kind to his wife
-he will see his wife as his equal in every way as an image bearer of God
-he will not be a chauvinist or a coward
-he will accept the fact that he is dominant in the marriage
-he will seek to be one with his wife, rather than two individuals
Duties for Christian wives (Eph. 5:22-24)
First, a wife is to submit only to her husband which frees her from being abused by other men, from
boyfriends to bosses. Second, her submission to his leadership extends to all areas of their marriage
which does not mean that she is without input or opinion (Pr. 19:14b) but rather not divisive. Third, she is
to be a bride like the church and a bride in the church. Practically, this means that faithful churches best
help produce faithful wives (i.e. Titus 2:3-5) and that if a husband should be in sin, the elders of that
church are in authority over him to protect his wife and correct his error because Jesus, not the husband,
is the ultimate Head.
Duties for Christian husbands (Eph. 5:25-32)
First, a husband is to love his wife as Jesus loves His bride, the church, and this includes giving himself
up for her by making continual sacrifices for her, making her holy by studying the Scriptures with her so
that she grows in wisdom and is cleansed from sin, presents her to himself as a gift from God, sees her
as a part of him rather than a separate person, and meets her practical needs such as food, housing,
clothing, etc.
The needs of husbands and wives (Eph. 5:33)
Simply, a husband needs to be respected and a wife needs to be loved. Devastation comes upon a
married woman who is unloved (no time, no touch, no provision, no conversation, no service), and equal
devastation rests upon a husband whose wife does not respect him (nagging, gossiping, mocking,
undermining). This wisdom is one of the key insights into the male/female dynamic that explains most
marital strife. A wise husband will seek to make his wife’s duty easier by being respectable, and a wise
wife will seek to make her husband’s duty easier by being lovely.
For further reading in the Scriptures see Genesis 2:18 cf. I Timothy 2:11-15; Genesis 5:2, I Corinthians
11:2-16; Ephesians 5:21-33; Colossians 3:18; I Peter 3:1; I Corinthians 14:33-34; Titus 2:3-5
For further reading on the theological underpinnings of these doctrines please read “Recovering Biblical
Manhood & Womanhood” by John Piper and Wayne Grudem (it is available both in book format and free
online at http://www.cbmw.org/rbmw/), and for the more practical implications of these doctrines please
read “The Federal Husband” and “Reforming Marriage” both by Douglas Wilson.
Comment by: Ann
167I Corinthians 7:3-5
The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
Comment by: Rachel
168Corrie, that depends on how you define feminism. As Alan Alda famously said, “Feminism is the belief that women are people too.” :-)
Comment by: Helen
169Ann wrote:
I expect that’s what Mark and Mars Hill would like you to think.
Since I found what bothers me on Mark’s blog, not in the Bible, I know my problem is with Mark’s disrespectful women-objectifying, women-demeaning words.
Comment by: Ann
170Helen, I guess what you are not realizing is that Mark and the other elders at Mars Hill preach ONLY God’s word, yes opinion gets put in there but it is your own responsibility to know what God is saying regardless of what others opinions are on open handed issues. Mark is only human and like all of us is bound to make a few mistakes. You ask for grace, why not dish some out to Mars Hill and to Mark. We are all sinners. We are all imperfect. If you don’t attend the church then why are you so worried about what the church is teaching? God is the focus of Mars Hill. All you are doing by attacking Mark is attacking one of God’s messengers.
I’m not too worried about what they might want me to think, I am more concerned with what God says.
Comment by: JG
171Ann,
I do have concerns about this planned protest and some of the underlying attitudes behind it (eg suggesting there is no difference between Christians who believe the Bible is the word of God and 9/11 terrorists) but I also have concerns about some of Mark’s comments and attitudes which appear to me to be quite contrary to biblical values.
Comment by: Ann
172JG,
Comments such as?
Comment by: JG
173Ann,
Have now read comment 170. For me, some of Mark’s comments go beyond “a few mistakes.”
Comment by: JG
174Ann,
Will let others answer - it is almost midnight here in the UK so time for me to sign off.
Comment by: Helen
175Ann, we aren’t going to agree but I admire your persistence.
Comment by: Ann
176Yes i believe we shall agree to disagree. i do just like both sides to be heard and try to clarify any misunderstandings.
Comment by: E.D.
177Ann, you seem to be extremely closed minded. Scarey, that you would believe without the notion of critical thinking.
And people wonder how all of those people followed Hitler.
Comment by: benjamin ady
178My experience at Mars Hill Church *this morning*!:
So I went over to Mars Hill this morning wanting to ask about a couple things that have been said on this blog. Let me first say that I totally believe Ally and Ex-member. I am *so* sorry for the crap you guys had to put up with! But at least you are outta there now (although I know because of my own background that even once you are outta there, it still takes a long time/lot of work to approach being as outta there (free) as you ultimately want to be.) It’s been six years since I left the abusive controlling church I grew up in, and although I am a lot further along than I was when I left, that whole experience still comes into my experiences now.
I got there 20 minutes late. I must say that it pretty much creeped (Microsoft word says this should be “crept”, which strikes me as hilarious) me right out from the moment I went in, so my observations are colored by that. Parking was *atrocious* and there were (ugly) sandwich boards next to every available nearby parking space loudly announcing “Mars Hill Church: No Church Parking”. I went in, and there were (it seemed to me) people everywhere with funny military looking headset/microphone things on their heads attached to walkie-talkies on their waist, and badges that said “Mars Hill Security”. Very nice touch, that (not!). In fact, at the front desk there was a poster advertising “Protect the Body, Join Security” with an image of one person using judo style techniques to “take down’ another person. I asked for a copy of the poster, or a jpeg or pdf of it, but none were available
I was 20 minutes late, and the sermon was already going on. At first I thought Mark Driscoll was actually there, preaching. I was at the very back, and looking over a sea of people sitting in chairs. I could see him at the front on the stage, preaching away. There were also 4 large video screens with projectors hung on the ceiling beaming Mark’s upper half strategically placed so everyone could get a good look at him. The sermon went on *forever* and a half (I’m thinking at least an hour). I kept finding myself really surprised that all these mostly youngish people could cope with sitting there for an hour listening to Mark. I can’t cope with anything like that for anything close to that amount of time. Last week I visited a church just up the street from me, and the pastor spoke for 9 minutes (reachoutchurch.org. I was ready to shout “glory” over that! Here I was thinking that my generation couldn’t deal with anything too far beyond 60 second clips of anything. Mark and Mars Hill have seriosquiolio proved me wrong on this point.
So I was out, and back in, and getting (*free*) coffee (hallelujah (which, by the way *really ought* to be pronounced with the “j” sounded like the “j” in “jelly” or “June” rather than like the “y” which most people use. But I regress)!) and asking some questions of a couple people. So to make myself look like a complete idiot, I asked the nice lady at the front desk “So, is Mark available to speak to people after the service?”
“Well, actually he drove over to the West Seattle Campus right after the 9AM service, and he’ll be back here tonight…” (I’m thinking “What the *@?&? I … thought I just saw him in there speaking away) “… and Mark isn’t available after services to speak to people … for *various* reasons. But other pastors will be available after each service to speak to people.”
I think this is pretty creepy. I think if pastors, or doctors, or people who are meant to be dealing with people are separated from people, they start to lose touch with humanity. Check out Dr. Paul Farmer, who runs partners in health in Haiti and elsewhere, a *huge* worldwide health organization. He still insists on doing actual clinical work with actual poor people in actual Haiti! He walks all day just to visit one tuberculosis patient.
So I went back into the service to look closer. I was *sure* I had seem him. Lo and behold, I had been *tricked*! He wasn’t there at all. Okay, so I’m probably just an idiot. There was a *really* big screen in front of the stage, with a *real* lectern in front of it turned sideways, and there was Mark, life-size, being beamed onto the really big screen, right next the *very* real lectern. And the tape had been taken earlier that morning (I’m guessing) on the same stage, so the video and the real stage behind the screen matched up well too. Very kewl. Kinda fun. Kinda creepy. There it is. I sure as *@^& know I couldn’t cope with that in a church I was involved with!
At the end of the (did I mention *immensely* long) sermon, the band came up. Very rock concert-esque. Drums, bass, guitar. I’m not sure what else. I couldn’t see the stage that clearly from my position in the distant back of the auditorium. The music was pretty kewl, but the lead singer went flat a bit too often for my personal taste. I know that this is probably okay for most people, because I am a tiny bit hypersensitive to people singing flat (probably because this is one of my weaknesses, and I have to listen to myself and concentrate a little to make sure I don’t do it regularly).
I found it disturbing that Mark wrapped up his (beamed in) sermon with a (strongish) plea for money “because we are in a financial crunch right now, which is part of the reason for my current weariness”.
At the end of everything, “campus pastor” Lief (god, I couldn’t help but think Ericson?) Moi got up on the stage and kind of wrapped things up, and prayed to close the service. Then he went out to the foyer. So I went out to ask him about the things that I read on the web this week: specifically, is it true that Mark Driscoll, the senior pastor, had taught at a “married men only” session at a men’s retreat in 2004 that women should make themselves available to their husbands for anal sex when they were “vaginally unavailable”, for instance, right after a birth, or during their period?
So I went up to Lief, who was standing all alone in the lobby. He refused to engage me, instead turning away toward another women who came up just after me and greeting her *very* graciously and chatting with her for a moment (they clearly knew each other). Then he and the women both actually turned toward another person who came up, thus turning their *backs* to me. At this point I was thinking “My God, do I look *that* scary??” So I softly said “Um, excuse me, are you two turning your backs to me on purpose because you want to exclude me from the conversation?” Then Lief continued conversing with the other person, while this woman turned to me and said “You seem to be a little sensitive, don’t you think?” Hmmmmm.
Finally, a third person came up, and I gently put my hand on Lief’s shoulder as a way of saying “Hey, do you perhaps have a second for me at any point?” He reacted very strongly to this, turning to me and saying “Could you just step back—you are standing a little too close. Please (gesturing with his hands to demonstrate how *far* back) could you just step back and I’ll be with you in a minute”. Yikesola. I guess I *must* look scary, at least to him (hehe, if he had any idea how terrifying I actually am). So he finished conversing with the 3rd person who had approached him *after* me. Finally, he turned to me. I introduced myself, shook his hand, and asked my question. Had he ever heard of such teaching, or did he know about it?
He said almost certainly Mark had never said such a thing. Lief founded the church with Mark years ago, he’s known him a long time, and he’s never heard such a thing, and people in the blogosphere will say anything. I told him I just wanted it from the horse’s mouth, as it were, and was there any chance, since I am not allowed to talk to Mark (the church won’t give out his phone number, email, nor schedule appointments with him. They said he is booked up for the next two years, and other pastors would be glad to talk to me), is there any chance Lief could check with Mark about this and get back to me, perhaps via email? “No, there’s no chance that he ever said anything like that. But thank you for coming to us to find out if that actually happened, instead of just believing it.”
But I do believe it. Just based on all the outrageous and bizarre things Mark has said on his blog over time, and multiple stories out in the blogosphere from people who have been hurt, I totally believe Mark said that. I’m sorry he has so made himself impossible to talk to that I can’t ask him directly.
Comment by: benjamin ady
179Pardon the length of 178. just a little something to counteract the lengthy Mark sermon above (hehe).
Ann, you are right that I have a problem with God *and* with what she says *and* with the Bible. And so do you, actually, and the rest of us human beings. but you are wrong to think this somehow means that I don’t have an altogether separate problem with what Mark Driscoll is saying. No, the two are not synonymous. They are not even in the same category.
Comment by: benjamin ady
180helen–how many comments do we need to set a CatE record?
Comment by: Ann
181E.D.
My mind is quite closed when it comes to what the bible says. I don’t question God. I do however question man.
Comment by: benjamin ady
182well, excepting, I suppose, the men who wrote the books, the men who chose them to be included in the canon, and the men (the ones you agree with anyway) who preach from them (including Mark)?
Comment by: E.D.
183I was refering to a man. Named Mark.
Comment by: Ann
184I do mean “man” in general. Yes I agree with Mark and other men but not all the time. I have been a member of Mars Hill for 8 years never have I seen oppression of women or women badly treated. In fact our church has some very high standards for men and how they treat women. I know that if my husband ever abused me in any way shape or form he would have to deal with the men of Mars Hill and I know that Mark would be leading the pack.
You can’t comment on the books I read because you don’t know me nor do you know which authors I read. I find it interesting that here in Seattle those against Mars Hill talk about being open minded and welcoming of all religions and beliefs but as soon as someone or a church disagree it’s “off with their heads”.
Comment by: E.D.
185The whole point, Ann is that you are NOT questioning This man. All that should go without question is the Lord and His Word.
My friend and her husband went to MH. and her husband was physically abusive to her, so she went to the elders, specifically Pastor Bent, for help. and they did NOTHING. First they tried to ignore her and just put her off. Then when she persisted Pastor Bent asked her what SHE did to make her husband so angry that he would hit her!!!That’s when she and I began thinking more critically…of man.
Comment by: benjamin ady
186I suppose you mean apart from the anal sex thing?
I suppose you mean in two years time when he has an appointment available (or is it longer for women, since you might be a flirtatious danger?)
Comment by: benjamin ady
187God this is so typical of fundamentalist abusive churches. What would they have said if she had called the police? (which seems to me to be the sensible thing to do when someone abuses one)
Comment by: Ann
188Perhaps you don’t know the entire story behind your friend and his wife. Or perhaps somehow Pastor Bent misunderstood or didn’t know the entire story either. I know Pastor Bent personally and he wouldn’t let a hitting man or woman walk away. So I am inclined to believe based on past experience that there has been a terrible misunderstanding. Never is it okay for a man or woman to hit.
I also know that Mark and other Elders most certainly make time for those who have a true need. I’ve never had a problem getting in to see an elder.
Comment by: Corrie
189“After reading a lot of the post from here and the protest site I’m getting the drift that the problem you guys seem to have is not really with Mark or Mars Hill but with God and God’s laws and God’s words.”
Of course. We have a problem with the Bible. The problem is that we can’t find some of these attitudes that Mark possesses IN the Bible.
“My mind is quite closed when it comes to what the bible says. I don’t question God. I do however question man.”
I see. It is okay for YOU to question man but it is ot okay for anyone else to quesiton man. When YOU question man, it is for righteous reasons. When others question a mere man that you happen to follow, then they are questioning because they don’t like the Bible.
This is all so very convenient. And that is exactly why I don’t think the protest is a good idea. Whenever people follow a man blindly like this, no amount of reasoning and logic will convince them that things may be wrong. If they admit there are things that are wrong, then their whole world crumbles down.
I, otoh, have learned not to follow a man so that I can stay objective. I am then free to disagree with Mark on some things and agree with him on others.
The grace we extend to ourselves should at the very least be extended to others. If one person thinks it is okay to question man, then they had better not make sweeping accusations that another person questioning a man is guilty of not wanting to believe the bible.
We can make the Bible say anything we want it to say. On these various boards, I have seen people make the Bible say things it is totally silent about.
Comment by: benjamin ady
190Gayle Haggard knew her husband personally too. and he would *never* have had sex with another man. But someone else knew a different Ted Haggard. Which was the real one? How many horrible experiences of women and men at Mars Hill are you willing to write off as ‘terrible misunderstandings’?
Comment by: E.D.
191Actually, she did call the police first, but they did not really do much but show up and calm things down then leave. so as the abuse progressed she went to her church BECAUSE Mark always said from the pulpit that he would call out and “take care of” ANY MAN who hurt his wife. sadly, she believed him. I can only imagine the stories we haven’t heard .. from the people who are too confused or too afraid of the repercussions or too brainwashed.
Comment by: Helen
192Wow Ben - thanks for actually going there this morning to ask someone if Mark ever encouraged husbands to consider anal sex. That was brave of you to ask!
If you’d gone to an elder of Ted Haggard’s church a couple of weeks ago and asked if he was having an affair no doubt they would have denied it - so who knows.
I agree with not liking that satellite campus situation where the pastor is only on a movie screen. It doesn’t make sense to me that a person on a screen is better than someone else live who can actually be there. It seems to place too much importance on the man on the screen, imo, to decide that him on a screen is better than someone else there live.
Comment by: Helen
193Ann wrote:
Wow - you sure are intent on defending Mars Hill.
I suppose Ted Haggard’s church would have been the same way about him a couple of weeks ago.
Sometimes the truth is sadly other than we would like to believe.
Comment by: Ann
194You are free to question whom ever you want and you should make sure that you are lining up what one person says about the Bible to the Bible. I too am free to disagree or agree with whom I chose. Like I said earlier I don’t always agree with Mark or the other Elders. I also follow no man or woman, I only follow Christ. I am a member at Mars Hill Church though that does not make me a “follower” of Mark Driscoll. It is the church that I attend.
As for the abuse I have no other personal knowledge of other peoples stories so I can not comment further. I do have to say that since my husband loves me and has never “hurt” me i have not had to deal with this at this church. I have dealt with abuse issues of my own committed against me before my marriage and before I met my husband so I am accustomed to the effects of abuse, hence the eating disorder. Just thought I’d state that in case you decided to tell me that I have know idea of that woman’s pain.
I will pray for all of you that Christ will soften and open your hearts so that you may receive the many wondrous blessings and love that Christ has for and wants to give you.
Comment by: benjamin ady
195iggy,
you seem to be of the opinion that hate and love are mutually exclusive, so that Christ’s command “love your enemy” implies “Don’t hate your enemy”. Am I hearing you correctly?
Can love be … devious, sneaky, underhanded, and hateful? What about what’s his noodles’ confronting King David over the Bathsheba thing? Was what this Jones’ fellow did in outing Haggard loving, or hateful? the answer is: YES!
Comment by: Helen
196E.D. thanks for sharing here. I’m sorry about your friend who was abused by her husband and was not helped by the church.
Comment by: benjamin ady
197god why do I get these nasty shivers when people say they’ll pray for me with that tone of writing? (something for me to think about, I guess)
Comment by: benjamin ady
198we approach 200!
Comment by: Ann
199If Pastor Mark or any other Elder has sinned in a manner that requires their removal and or church discipline then that is what needs to happen however there is nothing so far to suggest such a thing that has actual facts to back it up. Just a bunch of he said she said stuff that really has no grounds for accuracy and well until physical proof is produced I have faith that God has placed very good pastors in His (His being Christ’s) church.
Comment by: Ann
200sorry didn’t mean to have a “tone” just a sincere prayer.
Comment by: Corrie
201Benjamin, thanks for giving us the account of your morning. It doesn’t sound like my cup of tea. I had a good laugh thinking of you trying to talk to someone at that church and being treated that way. Wow! Do we really do all of this church stuff to reach actual people? Or is it something else?
I have heard many instances where a couple went to a pastor because the husband was hitting her and the first question was to the wife: “What did you do to make him hit you?”
Why should we believe any different? I mean, one of the top things in his list concerning cheating pastors, it had to do with his fat, manipulative wife. It wasn’t even advice as some of his loyals have said. It was a statement of fact (which it is NOT). And the caveat that she isn’t to blame doesn’t take away what was being said. People do that all the time. “I am sorry BUT….”. It was said. Just like when a woman gets hit, the question by the same kind of folks with this mentality is “what did she do to make him hit her”. All the caveats in the world about how there is no excuse to ever hit a woman isn’t going to fly when you plant the notion in the abusers mind that he wouldn’t have hit her if she wouldn’t have .
I agree with Alan Alda and if that makes me a feminist because I think that women are people to, so be it. :-) I am growing tired of people sticking their heads in the sand and pretending that this stuff doesn’t exist. It is PC to talk about how men have it so bad and the feminists have taken over the church and the men are suffering and being ripped to shreds. But, woe to the woman who dares to point out the pink elephant in the room.
I want to say “Get over it already. Women have lived with being treated like chattel for thousands and thousands of years. How does it feel? Not so good? Then don’t do it to others if it doesn’t feel so good when it is done to you.”
The really question has to do with how we can get past all this nonsense and possess the attitude of Christ.
Comment by: Helen
202Ann thanks for praying. Can I assume you mean “our…us” not “your…you” i.e. that you include yourself as in need of Christ’s work too? Or am I wrong and are you thinking we need that prayer much more than you?
Comment by: Corrie
203Ann,
“You are free to question whom ever you want and you should make sure that you are lining up what one person says about the Bible to the Bible. I too am free to disagree or agree with whom I chose. ”
If that is true then why, when we do question what is being taught by a mere man, you accuse us of not liking what the bible says? Are we REALLY free to disagree with a man or question his teachings?
If you are really listening you will see that people ARE question the teachings and ACTUALLY showing where the Bible shows those teachings to be wrong.
“I will pray for all of you that Christ will soften and open your hearts so that you may receive the many wondrous blessings and love that Christ has for and wants to give you.”
So, this prayer means that we are NOT free to question teachings because it means that we are not open to what Christ has for us.
Do you see that you have set yourself up as the chief arbitor of who can or cannot question and then you ascribe motives based on whether or not that person lines up with the person YOU like?
Ann, can you not believe that we are sincerely concerned about what we are reading coming from your church and that our motives ARE to be open to what Christ has for us?
Comment by: Ann
204Oh Helen I need so much prayer it’s not even funny. I have a whole long list of sins and areas that I need prayer in.
Comment by: E.D.
205ben. ady… kudos to you! i could not view 178 before. now that i see it… i am so glad to “know” you. what guts it took to do that. and i am so sorry for the way you were treated. i too visited the church once. it is a bit much, huh? i am so glad i did not try to approach one of the pastors. my feelings would have been so hurt if i was treated in such a way. sick. i think there are a lot of skeletons we don’t know about in these people’s closets. i’m really not sure i want to know. ugh!
Comment by: Helen
206Corrie what I find scary is the mentality - which no doubt surrounded Ted Haggard until two weeks ago - of: “No, that couldn’t possible have happened here. You must be mistaken!”
We need to have the courage to accept the truth even when we don’t like what the truth is.
Ann I respect your desire not to believe anything without proof. But you don’t have to suggest that people are mistaken. Why would they make these things up? What do they have to gain by doing so?
You can simply say something like “I’m not sure what to make of this because it doesn’t line up with my own experience at Mars Hill”.
Comment by: Corrie
207And what do hard hearts have to do with any of this? This is frustrating. Why do I even bother?
Comment by: Helen
208Thanks Ann - sometimes we come across other than we intend and I was hoping you didn’t mean to imply “You sure need prayer but I don’t!”
I appreciate your patience in the face of all these allegations which don’t line up with your own experience.
Comment by: Helen
209Corrie, we bother because we care. Hang in there!
Comment by: Jeff
210QUOTE
Ann,
I’m sorry, did you know that Mark was brought in front of the elders at MH for this incident on the forums and that he in front of Brent had to offer his apology and admit what he did was wrong, of course not, because he was allowed to attack in public and MH wanted reconcilation to be done in private. At the time I allowed this to protect my family, in hind site I regret no pushing for a pulpit apology…
Just thought you might want the full story…
In Christ,
Jeff
Comment by: Rachel
211Or my personal favorite “No offense, but…”
You Jezebel! Now you are officially qualified to learn the feminist Jedi mind tricks! ;-)
Comment by: Ally
212Dear Ann, I am not going to engage you too extensively on the issue of the way I was treated because of my weight. However, I will point out that is not my only reason for leaving. Our leaving has many, many reasons. Mostly it has to do with the fact that my husband and I have been going along, unable to even talk to God or read our Bibles because of the shame that we have learned in this church. That was not there before.
You say that shame can lead us to God’s love, and if that is true for you, then I rejoice for you. You will probably continue to thrive under Mark’s direction, and for those who do truly draw closer to Jesus through Mark, I praise God. I bear you no malice, sister.
But my husband and I perhaps do not have the personalities to thrive under shame and condemnation. I can’t speak totally for my husband so let me just say that I need Love. I grew up in a household that operated on shame and condemnation. I know about the shame. I need to learn about the Love. Do you love me?
I am your sister. I am a sinner. I struggle. You and I understand the pain of having an eating disorder. If the shaming approach works for you, wonderful. You are blessed. You don’t have to deal with trying to find another church. You don’t have to deal with not being able to open your Bible or talk to your God anymore.
It hurt me to read this, but it is okay. “He said she said” is aimed at my husband and me. Pastor Lief is not going to address Benjamin about the anal sex thing, that is fine. He flat-out lied, and that is fine (assuming he was at the talk at the retreat; he may not have been).
1. I and my husband are LIVING TESTIMONY that Mark discussed the anal sex issue. I will never believe that Mark ever intended to harm us or anyone. But he did. This issue almost caused us to separate.
2. There was a roomful of married men present who all heard it. Every single one of them heard it. They were there. They all know what was said. They can lie, or they can say it was taken out of context. Either way, what happened is what happened.
3. Neither my husband nor I would spread lies about Mark. We love him as our brother. He HAS harmed us, yes. But as I keep saying, he would never do it intentionally, and we know that. Mark loves his church. His church is his life.
4. It has been also reported that Mark discussed Grace “riding” him while manually stimulating herself. Heavens, if he is going to report that, why is it so hard to believe he would discuss the anal sex thing?
This grieves me so badly. Jennifer did not deserve what she got. When this happened it scared the heck out of so many members who learned that they can never, EVER publicly disagree with Mark. Jennifer was not campaigning, she was not dividing. She was only respectfully disagreeing.
I am giving you as much grace as I am able, but I do not condone what was done to this woman. And I do not condone your support of it.
Comment by: Ann
213Jeff,
I do believe there to be Biblical foundation as to the allegations but I also remember reading what Mark said and I did think the manner in which it was worded was not necessary. Sometimes tact leaves us all in the heat of a moment. I am sorry that your wife was so hurt. I do think that the action was correct but the way in which it was delivered could have been done differently.
Thank you for the full story. It’s hard going to such a large church that is growing so fast. Things slip through the cracks unintentionally. I do know that Mars Hill is doing it’s best that things like what happened on the forum don’t happen again. Hopefully we will all continue to learn from our mistakes.
Blessings to you and Jen.
Comment by: Helen
214Ally, I just want to say that I believe in a really big God whose attitude about people who can’t pray or read the Bible because of what they’ve been through is: “Fine - I understand!”
There’s a Bible verse that I wish everyone who cares what the Bible says knew. It’s in one of the prophetic passages about Jesus and it says
Isaiah 42:3 A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
he will not falter or be discouraged
till he establishes justice on earth.
Jesus is that careful and sensitive with wounded people, while at the same time being passionate about bringing justice about for them.
I wish more of Jesus’ self-proclaimed followers could be that way too. They are often like bulls in a china shop with hurt people and the ‘justice’ they fight for doesn’t seem to be freedom for the poor and oppressed.
Comment by: Rachel
215Well said, Helen!
Comment by: Helen
216Ann, tact is the last word it would occur to me to associate with Mark. His blog posts don’t indicate that he has any interest in being tactful. He seems to delight in being provocative and ridiculing Christians in other traditions. He is praised for his ‘bluntness’ and my sense is that he seems to take pride in it as what makes him distinctive and unique.
Comment by: benjamin ady
217rachel.
If I agree with Alan Alda, can i come to the Jedi mind tricks workshop? please? please please please please please please please (how about if I declare myself to be a male lesbian?)
Comment by: Jeff
218So Ann, what I’m hearing is the Salem style witch hunt that was perpetrated by Mark and some women was necessary? Even though Mark confesses that he was wrong, he responded in his words “…in a scorched earth…” way and “…left buddies burning way they lay” If church discipline was followed his should not of played out like this. The most amusing exchange that I had with Mark was on the forum in which he said “…if you can’t shut your wife up, I will…” Thats when I got the elders involved. I could of taken that as a direct threat against my wife’s safety, we never returned to MH after that, other then the apology session. So Ann where you one of the hunters that week?
Jeff
Comment by: Ann
219Ally,
Honestly it’s not that she disagreed with Mark. It was about what the Bible says. I like listening to Mark because I like getting things straight forward. I am just that type of person. I don’t like having to try to figure out what people mean when they are talking. I like hearing it frankly as I deliver my conversations that way as well.
With the whole shame thing, no I don’t like hearing what a horrible person I am. However it depends on how you look at it. From a cultural point of view or from a biblical point of view. From a cultural point of view I am a pretty decent person. From a biblical standpoint I am a sinner, God is good and I am not because only God is pure. So I am saying being good is equal to being pure in a biblical point of view. Am I making sense to you?
I harbor no hard feelings towards you at all. I am concerned though that you said you are still a member and using the forums though you plan to leave. If this is correct you are invading others privacy. I’m hoping it’s not true and that you no longer surf the forums as that is a privilege of the members of Mars Hill.
I am sorry but it’s not Mark’s fault or the church’s if you can’t open your bible. Perhaps Satan has gotten a foothold and is telling you lies. I will surely pray for you both and that you may grow closer and closer to Christ and that you feel his arms wrapped around you this very minute. One of my favorite Psalms is Psalm 40.
Comment by: Jeff
220LOL “bodies and buddies” OOPS, I should of proofed it better
Comment by: Jennifer
221Ann,
I wasnt going to jump back in here, but really need to help you remember somthing…The disagreement I had with Mark was about 2 things, the biggest of which was the question, “can men and women be friends”. Mark wanted to say that is impossible because of what the Bible says. I disagreed. Since the Bible doenst speak directly on this, it is impossible for Mark to just give you things straight forward. That was his opinion. Its okay for him to have his opinion, but dont confuse it with him giving you the Bible straight.
Comment by: benjamin ady
222Ann, will you just stop it with the “I’m sorry but …”. It’s a worse than useless phrase.
Comment by: Ann
223Jeff Perhaps you should quote Mark correctly. I can’t post what he wrote because that would be a violation of the privacy of the members forum but in reading it Mark just states that you need to take headship over your wife and if you wont then he will. Like I said before the manor in which he spoke i don’t agree with but the reason behind it i do agree with. his choice of words should have been different and everyone would say that the forum thread got out of hand. I wouldn’t call it a witch hunt though.
I followed the posts but never posted.
Jeff, I am done with this with you. I have said my peace.
Comment by: Ann
224Jennifer there is no need to get into all of that again. I do agree that a married woman should not have male friends that she sees without her husband and the same goes for the husband. Mark did not give me that opinion. that is my on conclusion on what I believe God is saying on the matter. I don’t know what happened for certain aside from what was said on the member’s forum.
Comment by: Corrie
225Just wanted you all to know that a deacon from Mars Hill responded to me in a very timely fashion about the whole anal sex teaching. He is going to post it over at http://bobhyatt.typepad.com/.
This truly does my heart good that someone was willing to respond to me concerning my concerns. I hope this is a good sign and I do believe it is a step in the right direction.
Every hopeful.
Comment by: Ally
226Yep, yep. I went to Mars Hill for 7 years, I know Mark’s brand of theology.
I asked before if you love me. Do you love me?
My husband and I resigned membership of the church, and we no longer have access to the Member’s site. Nor do we wish to, based on everything he and I have said here. We do however, still have friends in the church (who, btw, are also on the way out) who keep us posted.
And how do you know? Listen, it’s bad enough to disregard what this church has done to me and to my husband. It’s ballsy, truly. But to go as far as to say it’s even a lie of the devil is too much.
You are seeing through the lens of your own experience, as we all do. Nothing wrong with that. But do not disregard my experience of the situation. This church has spiritually abused me AND my husband. You are not me. You are not my husband. You have no right - how dare you? You have overstepped your bounds with me and IT IS NOT OKAY. I realize that the church is way short on anything resembling grace, so I forgive you. But please do not dismiss my experience again, lady.
Do we find it ironic that Mark’s most enthusiastic (”rabid” as my husband says) supporters are women? Stockholm Syndrome?
Comment by: Jeff
227Ah Ann, the convenience of the MH veil of secrecy, If what was said in the forums ever made into the light of the public things would be very different, and Ann that was the edited response not the original it was edited after the elders got involved.
Jeff
Comment by: Ann
228i never intended to come across that I thought you are lying or to disregard your experience. Quite frankly i was honestly just trying to help you see it from another point of view.
Please explain to me how another person can keep you from reading your bible? I would really like to better understand where you are coming from on this.
Comment by: Ally
229From my post (#109) above:
Comment by: Rachel
230No! Girls only! No boys allowed! Boys have cooties! :-P
Comment by: Jennifer
231Ann,
But that’s just the thing - the subject we disagreed over was opinion. Mark is welcome to his opinion, but instead of welcoming me to mine, he said I was an adultress just because I have a clsoe male friend. He called me an adultress in front of my whole church community over this. That’s not the Bible, that’s him taking his opinion and using the Bible to silence anyone who disagrees.
Comment by: benjamin ady
232Cooties are good. cooties are good. cooties are good. (if I say it enough, maybe people will start to believe it)
Comment by: benjamin ady
233jesus had women friends. I guess, according to this logic, that makes him an adulturor too? (I know, it should be “adulturer”. but my spelling looks more like auror, which is a kick ass good wizard from the Harry Potter World)
Comment by: benjamin ady
234(I can just see all the fundamentalist making little motions with their hands to ward off the “evil” of the harry potter books) (Ok, that’s totally uncalled for!)
Comment by: benjamin ady
235corrie, when (if) that post about the anal sex thing arrives at bobhyatt, can you post a link directly to it?
Comment by: Ally
236Jen and Jeff, you are good people. I was so impressed with you on the member’s site and the way you would help people, myself included. I missed you when you left. (Jen, I am going to email you soon and I would love to get together.)
I am sorry to have been the cause of dredging all this garbage up for you again. I also have a precious male friend who I have been close to for years. It is most certainly NOT unbiblical, good Lord. We are grown-ups here. We have brains in our heads, just imagine!
Remember back in the day when you became a member of MH and were told that it is okay to disagree with the church (ie, Mark) on secondary issues providing you don’t cause division?
What a load of BS! There’s the official, beautifully painted, nicely landscaped, artfully crafted “official” statement. What it really means is “if you question Mark’s opinion on anything, keep it to yourself or ELSE.”
This is cause for great alarm. No man - NO man - but Jesus Himself can handle and honor that kind of power!
Comment by: Mike Clawson
237Ally,
I just want to say that it breaks my heart to hear how that church has hurt you, and that I hope you can get past the lies they so deeply ingrained in you. Your worth and beauty as a woman has nothing to do with your outward appearance. If the courage you demonstrate here in sharing and defending your story here at this blog is any indication, than I would say that your inward character is incredibly beautiful. Your husband is a lucky man.
-Mike C
Comment by: Ann
238having an intimate relationship with someone of the opposite sex when you are married i believe to be asking for tons of trouble. what if i were seen at the movies with another man, what would people think? I may not be sinning but i would or could be giving the impression of sin (cheating on my husband) and that in itself is a sin. we are not to give the impression of sin.
Comment by: Mike Clawson
239Helen.
Re: comment #214 - for an “almost atheist” you consistently display an amazingly Christlike character and pastoral spirit towards the struggles of others. I love the way you use scripture in such a compassionate, healing way. Have you ever considered becoming a pastor? ;)
-Mike C
Comment by: Jeff
240Ally,
You know this reminds me of an old Steve Taylor song, here are the lyrics…
I Manipulate
Does your soul crave center stage?
have you heard about the latest rage?
read your Bible by lightning flash
get ordained at the thunder crash
build a kingdom with a cattle prod
tell the masses it’s a message from God
where the innocent congregate
I manipulate
Take your notebooks, turn with me
to the chapter on authority
do you top the chain of command
rule your family with an iron hand
I dispense little pills of power
from my hideaway ivory tower
from the cover of heaven’s gate
I manipulate
Now it’s time to fill in the space
where we talk about the woman’s place
do you want to build a happy home?
have you sacrificed a mind of your own?
’cause a good wife learns to cower
underneath the umbrella of power
from the cover of heaven’s gate
I manipulate
Yes, I know that parable
that’s the story of the prodigal
if you question what I’m teaching you
you rebel against the Father too
if he loved him why’d he let him go?
well, I guess I don’t really know
but I see it’s getting late…
Comment by: benjamin ady
241Ally, can I just ditto Mike C? You are amazingly gutsy, and god totally thinks you are beautiful. And the whole thin thing is totally cultural/time related. I had a friend, a medical doctor, from Ghana (with the most gorgeous glistening black skin!), and one morning at the church I used to attend, he was in the foyer, and overheard one women say to another “You’ve lost a lot of weight–you look really slender!”. And he laughed out loud-this beautiful booming laugh. The two women were slightly taken aback, so he had to explain: “In my country, that would be a grave insult! The best looking woman in the village is the fattest, and usually she is the one who gets courted by the richest most powerful (and fattest) guy. Everyone wants to be fatter!. My gorgeous wife, Megan, spent 6 months working as a nurse/midwife way out in the bush in Uganda. When she arrived, she was stick thin, and all those lovely Ugandana people, the second they saw her, decided and told her that they needed to fatten her up! She gained 20 pounds, and they were all so delighted. She used to run while she was there, for exercise. At first the people asked her “why are you running?”. She explained “for exercise.” They didn’t really understand, but they would repeat the statement as if for a joke: “Why is Megan running?” “For *exercise*” (said with a very mysterious knowing look, referring to this strange white person phenomenon.)
Let us subvert the dominant paradigm!
Comment by: Ally
242Mike, thank you so much for your kindness. It’s a balm to my soul. I am so thankful the Lord lead me to Helen’s blog! I have been going through this almost totally alone. My husband has of course been a great help, but being as we are both going through it, it’s been hard to get perspective.
I agree, Helen, your maturity, grace, and insights display a strong character and Godly woman. Thank you for your blog and for your supportive words to EVERYone on here.
Jeff - absolutely spot on.
Comment by: benjamin ady
243mike c. Perhaps Helen doesn’t realize it yet, but she already *is* a pastor–the pastor of CatE. You noticed it yourself!
Comment by: Jennifer
244Ann,
You are missing my point.
Its fine if you want to live and act that way. Really, it is fine. But for me, having a close friendship with a man is fine. And its fine with my husband. That’s not the point.
The point is that when issues of opinion get turned into black and white sin issues, there is a problem about control.
Comment by: Ally
245LOL!! Benjamin, thanks I needed that! Thanks for not treating me like the typical Mars Hillian (or Fred Meyer-goer, as the case may be [post #152]) and for accepting me right here as I am.
Right here as I am… isn’t that how Jesus is supposed to love us? I haven’t heard that in a VERY long time, but it’s starting to come back. It’s a song or something.
Comment by: Rachel
246Ben, you subversive feminist, I guess we can let you into the Jedi mind tricks workshop!
Comment by: benjamin ady
247yeah wierd about that fred myers/mars hill thing. both places kind of give me the creeps. My feeling about Fred Meyer is that it someehow sucks me in, and I always end up in there longer than I meant to be in there. wierd.
Jennifer, you write so *clearly*. thankyou!
Comment by: benjamin ady
248yippee! do you really think there’s any hope, though, for me to actually learn it, with my shrunken male corpus callosum?
Comment by: benjamin ady
249Or corrie, maybe you could just post what that elder wrote to you here?
Comment by: Ally
250Benjamin, btw, massive freaking kudos for not only going to MH today but for approaching Lief. He can be a veryyyyyyyyyy intimidating guy. Guess you found that out, huh? My husband likes Lief a lot, so I can’t say too much.
But I will say that it reminded me of my experiences with so much of the leadership of MH. They are so nasty. Just, mean. There ARE exceptions, but they are few (like, 2). This was one of the things we never understood about the church and contributed SO much to the whole shame issue.
I remember clearly years ago there was some kind of member’s reception or something and we were sitting alone at a table with one of the elders (not Lief or Mark). We were sitting there, my husband and I, just waiting for this pastor to say hello to us or even acknowledge us. Nothing; he just kept looking around the room, looking at his hands, reading some pamphlet. We were stunned. “Yoo-hoo? Over here, we help pay your salary? How ’bout a hello?” We sat at that table for about 2 hours and the man said nothing to us - he is one of the elders!
So, don’t feel bad. That’s just how they welcome people at Mars Hill.
Comment by: Corrie
251Benjamin, I can help you understand anything by using my jedi mindtricks on you. :-)
Comment by: benjamin ady
252yeah–I was a bit wierded out by that. Like they are this big growing church, and they treat strangers like that? I don’t get that. And hour long sermons? As my amazing sister, Kat, would say “waddup wit dat”?
Comment by: benjamin ady
253Corrie–thank god! Is it permanent? I’d be willing to pay you to just tell me that I’m happy all the time. =)
Comment by: benjamin ady
254Lyrics for Just as I am.
you can listen to an organ solo of the tune at wikipedia
Just as I Am, Without One Plea
By: Charlotte Elliott
Just as I am, without one plea
But that thy blood was shed for me
And that thou bidd’st me come to thee
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am and waiting not
To rid my soul of one dark blot,
To thee, whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, though tossed about
With many a conflict, many a doubt,
Fightings and fears within, without,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind;
Sight, riches, healing of the mind,
Yea, all I need, in thee to find,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just as I am, thou wilt receive,
Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
Because thy promise I believe,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Just a I am; thy love unknown
Has broken every barrier down;
Now to be thine, yea, thine alone,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
Comment by: Corrie
255Jeff, I love that song by Steve Taylor. I thought of it often when I was trying to get out of the Bill Gothard mindset.
Is it biblical for a pastor to tell a husband that if he won’t take headship over his wife (what does that mean?) then he will? Is a pastor allowed to be “head” to another man’s wife? Does he really have that sort of authority? If a husband says it is okay that his wife has a friend who is male, then isn’t he already exercising headship over his wife by allowing it? Can another man usurp headship over another man’s wife? Chapter? Verse?
In spiritually abusive systems, anytime a person points out a problem, they are the problem. They didn’t cause it nor did they cause “division” by bringing attention to the problem. Funny, though, these same systems have no problem causing “division” by pointing out problems that affect them.
Ally, I echo what everyone has said here. I know how damaging religion can be for the soul. It can make it almost impossible to read your bible without having the grid of someone else’s opinions constantly going through your head. Return to your first Love. Do the deeds you did at first. I have to do that often, especially after dealing with disturbing issues.
Comment by: benjamin ady
256Here’s the link to the deacon from Mars Hill’s response to Corrie’s questions about the anal sex thing
Comment by: Corrie
257Lest anyone think I am a prude- I can assure you I am not. I was once drug through the mud and accused of many things (including feminist) for saying that I have no problems with a woman wanting to learn how to pole dance and to use that knowledge in the privacy of her own bedroom with her own husband. It was in response to an Oprah show.
I find this completely ironic since I was called a feminist for thinking that this was okay. I was also accused of being lewd. This was on a complementarian (patriarchal) yahoo group.
I guess I am darned if I do and darned if I don’t. :-)
Comment by: Corrie
258This was just posted over at Bob’s blog:
Hey Everyone,
After encountering this blog and discussion Corrie emailed Resurgence and asked for verification. I, being the content administrator at the church, recieved the email and responded. Because I believe it is important to clear the air on this, I have asked and received permission form Corrie to post our email exchange.
On 11/11/06 9:37 PM, “Corrie” wrote:
I came across a post written by an ex-attender (male) of Mars Hill and I would like for the elders to confirm or deny this. Is this taught? Is this advocated in any way? Has this every been taught at any retreat? Where do you stand on this?
“11/11/06 1:54 PM
Hello,
I wanted to chime in here and say that I at first related to Mr. Driscoll. A few years ago I attended a Men’s retreat and sat in on a sermon that he gave for married men only.
I was pretty shocked when he launched into a long explaination of why our wives should make themselves available for anal sex when they are on their monthly cylcles or if they are pregnant or otherwise vaginally unavailable. I confess that at first I was a bit too excited by the prospect and even felt anger at my wife for not agreeing. Lets just say I was in the dog house for quite a while.
My family and I no longer attend the church, but I still struggle with the feelings of unadequacy that was instilled in me by Mr. Driscoll’s teaching. I was convinced for a long time that I am not much of a providor and that I am simply not a good enough man for my family. I didn’t feel that way before and now I still do. I am in counceling for it and I want to be the best dad and husband I can. I do not think Mr. Driscoll is aware of how harmful his comments are to men. Allot has been said about his affect on women but I want everyone to know it’s men too.”
Thank you for your immediate attention to my question.
In Christ our Lord,
Corrie
On Nov 12, 2006, at 3:53 PM, Jon wrote:
Corrie,
I am not an elder. I am just a deacon and if my response is not sufficient for you, I would happy to pass your e-mail on to the elders.
That said. I have been a member at Mars Hill Church for the past 7 years. I have been to every men’s retreat that Mars hill has had.
At every men’s retreat there has been one session for married men (where all single men, boys, students, etc are required to go to a separate session). At this session, Pastor Mark goes through Song of Songs and explains it as a Biblical model for relationships and sex. At no point in Song of Songs is anal sex ever discussed, therefore Mark never advocates it. There is a lot of frank language in Song of Songs and Mark does discuss that, including intercourse, and oral sex (performed by both the husband and the wife). The sessions always have time for Q&A. Among the things discussed are making sure that you remain attractive to your spouse (shaving, bathing, using product in your hair, dressing nice etc). (This relates to mutual reciprocity with regard to “not letting oneself go” for the sake of the other.) One question that has come up in the past is: “Is anal sex ok?” Mark and the other elder’s answer is and always has been: “The Bible does not speak directly about anal sex between a husband and wife. The Bible does however say that the marital relationship is to be one of mutual respect and love. And that, within the confines of marriage, solely between the husband and wife, whatever both agree upon is fair game.” This comment is then follow-up by reminding the men that there are some things that the human body is not really designed for, and anal sex is one of those things. So, while it is technically permissible within marriage it is probably not beneficial, and husbands should consider the well being of their wives in all matters related to their marriage, especially sex. I do not vividly remember exactly every word exchanged at each men’s retreat, however, I do remember that at this year’s men’s retreat Mark specifically said that he did not think that anal sex is wise.
I must conclude that the person who posted this is either confused, mistaken, or just plain lying. I would like to believe that they are not lying, however, there are a lot of people who would like to malign the reputation of Mars Hill. Thank you for not taking others at face valve and for asking us directly.
I think that this particular claim by the person who posted it needs to be set straight. I looks like you saw this post on Bob Hyatt’s blog (I think I saw a post by you over there). With your permission, I would like to post your email to me and my response on Bob’s blog so that there is a record of this response for everyone.
Is that alright with you?
Thank you,
Jon Krombein
Content Administrator, Deacon
———————————-
Resurgence
This email exchange took place before I read the post above from Ally claiming that her husband was the one that posted regarding anal sex and the men’s retreat.
I was at the 2004 men’s retreat. I was in the session for married men. Mark absolutely did not say that wives should make themselves available anally. As I told Corrie above, Mark has always maintained that whatever both the husband and wife consent to, within the confines of their marriage covanant is fair game, but key is that both parties must agree, and must participate in the marriage out of mutual love and respect. Anal sex did come up at that session, and Mark said what he has always said, it’s probably not a good idea, and you should certainly be cautious, but it is between a husband and wife what they will or will not do.
Ally, I’m sorry that your husband brought this into your marriage and that it has been a source of grief and strain for you, but I assure you, Mark Driscoll did not advocate it.
An no, I have never heard Mark discuss imtimate details about his relationship with Grace. (There has certainly never a frank discussion about what Mark and Grace do or do not do; that includes anal sex.) His discussions about sex always center on the Bible and he is always sufficiently vague about his relationship with Grace.
Comment by: Ally
259ughh.. I am so tired. Here is my response to MH’s “official” response to the “anal sex” stuff. I’m so tired of defending this. I never intended to talk to another human being about something that’s been so shameful, and here I have been talking about it all day, and screaming and proclaiming. I feel like I am going crazy. My husband is not a liar! Enough is enough. I didn’t really expect them to admit anything.
From MH Deacon Jon Krombein:
Comment by: Jennifer
260Ally,
I just want to say that I believe you.
I lost track of the number of times people have told me that Mark really didnt tell my husband to shut me up, or he would do it himself. It happened. No amount of others denial changes that.
Comment by: benjamin ady
261Ally, can I just say again that I totally believe you! Powerful abusive systems *always* try to squash their victims after they have victimized them by calling them nasty names like liar or “confused or mistaken”. And they maintain their power because their victims are so ashamed and so squashed that they just shut up for the weariness of it. It’s *@&)!&ing hard to fight a big powerful abusive system. There are numerous examples of this right through history. Lot’s of people just give up. Your brave stand is awesome. My friend John Ramey told me this great story. He had a hot tub. and one year, some rats got into the warm area between the actual tub and the framing, where all the wiring and plumbing goes, and the nested in there, and they wreaked havoc with the wires. And when he found it, he went out on the weekend and started looking at the extent of the damage, and he felt totally overwhelmed. So he sat down for a minute to decide whether it was even worth trying to fix. And he came to this conclusion: “I’m just not gonna let the rats win!”.
Comment by: jonny
262Is anyone noticing that all of this ranting is incredibly one sided. When was the last time a real problem presented itself and there was only onw party to blame. Really, all it takes is a few minutes in this world (assuming you are objective and don’t value your own offenses so much) to see that it ALWAYS takes two to tango. Sometimes more but ALWAYS more than one. I haven’t seen one person stop and think that maybe they are seeing things they aren’t. I know for a fact most are taking second and third hand information and using it like it was from the horses mouth.
Matter of fact, does anyone remember playing the telephone game when you were little. One would start by saying a word or phrase and then wisper that word or phrase to the person next to you. It would go around the entire circle till it got back to the person it started with. Then the intitiator would reveal what they said to begin with and the last person would share what that message had become. And to there dismay something like “cookies taste great” turns into “damn them kiebler comercials for exploiting little people.
I would say this is very much what has happend here. Think about it for a minute. All you have to loose is your pride and hate.
Comment by: benjamin ady
263the telephone game works even funnerly (I’m rather of the opinion that if I say it’s a word, then it’s a word, even if I just coined it) in a group of people with lots of different first languages.
I tried to go to the horse’s mouth, but I was told that the horse didn’t have any appointments available for *two* years!. So much for that idea.
I think you meant “lose”, not “loose”.
Comment by: Blog - People Against Fundamentalism » FAQ: Taking Action Against Fundamentalist Misogyny
264 11/13/06 1:17 AM | Comment Link |[...] http://conversationattheedge.com/2006/11/09/mark-driscoll-and-women/#comment-3499 [...]
Comment by: katelyn
265Feelings are real, and they are valid and they can be excruciatingly painful regardless of whether you ‘contributed’ willingly or not to the hurt. And anyone who dares undermines someone elses feelings, then they need to learn to control their mouth and their heart.
Jesus would tear the church down if he was here and saw that those he died for, were being treated this way.
If anyone feels that they are not worthy before Jesus, then the church that they go to, has serious accountability for that. That would just make the Jesus dying a complete waste of time.
Jesus came to save sinners. None of us is righteous not even one. We are all in the same sorry boat, but we don’t have to drown, and just have to remember that people like Mark won’t necessarily have the same outcome as us, when we die or Jesus returns. In the meantime, I applaud all you guys for caring about people so much that you want to protect them from also being hurt unneccessarily, and would even go to MH to do so! Jesus would be seriously happy about that i think!
Comment by: Helen
266Thanks Katelyn!
Note/reminder to everyone: if you want to get involved expressing your concern about Mark’s teachings about women, go check out what this group is planning:
People Against Fundamentalism
Comment by: Helen
267jonny wrote:
Jonny, there’s nothing second-hand about me using direct quotes from Mark Driscoll’s blog, unless someone has been fraudulently posting using his name.
As for whether Mark taught about anal sex, evidently both Ally’s husband and his friend heard it - and the Bible says something is established by two or three witnesses. Yes, two people could agree to lie about something. But in this case I see no motive for lying so I am inclined to believe them. Perhaps it would turn out that more people heard it if we could ask everyone who was at that retreat who doesn’t have a vested interest in protecting Mark Driscoll.
Ally and your husband, I hope you realized when you posted what you did that it was very likely some people would say you were lying or mistaken.
Anyway - I think the bigger problem is that Mark Driscoll is not out there talking with people who seem to have been hurt by his teachings, saying “I think you misunderstood me - but even so, I’m very sorry you were hurt. Help me figure out how to avoid this in future.”
By continuing to write very provocative things and yet making himself inaccessible and unreachable by ordinary people who want to discuss them with him, he implies “I don’t care”. If he doesn’t care he shouldn’t be the leader over thousands of people. If he does care then why does someone like Benjamin have to wait two years to talk to him? That’s absolutely ridiculous.
Comment by: Helen
268Jon Krombein wrote:
Here’s a link to the comment where someone says Mark gave details of sex with his wife
Comment by: Corrie
269Helen, very good point in #267. Now, the right thing to do by Ally and her husband is for Mark to apologize for any misunderstanding and to clarify his position on anal sex and that it is not something that a husband should be demanding of his wife and that he doesn’t recommend the act because it is not beneficial and that the anus was not made for the sex act.
I know MacArthur and Dobsen have both gotten back to me over a couple of issues based on their teachings. With Dobsen, we asked him whether an older boy sexually assaulting a younger boy while he was sleeping and trying to force oral and anal sex on him was “normal boyhood curiousity”. His organization not only emailed me but they called me on the phone.
Surely Mark has enough time to contact this couple and set the record straight?
Comment by: JL
270Corrie, I’m not sure how much more clarification is needed, based on what Deacon Jon Krombein writes on behalf of Mars Hill (as follows):
One question that has come up in the past is: “Is anal sex ok?” Mark and the other elder’s answer is and always has been: “The Bible does not speak directly about anal sex between a husband and wife. The Bible does however say that the marital relationship is to be one of mutual respect and love. And that, within the confines of marriage, solely between the husband and wife, whatever both agree upon is fair game.” This comment is then follow-up by reminding the men that there are some things that the human body is not really designed for, and anal sex is one of those things. So, while it is technically permissible within marriage it is probably not beneficial, and husbands should consider the well being of their wives in all matters related to their marriage, especially sex. I do not vividly remember exactly every word exchanged at each men’s retreat, however, I do remember that at this year’s men’s retreat Mark specifically said that he did not think that anal sex is wise.
Comment by: kelly
271though it has already been stated, i thought that i would observe here that, wherever you go on the internet and there is a conversation about mark or about mars hill, you will find mars hill members saying, “you misunderstood that very offensive thing.” or, “he did not say that very offensive thing.
i have an idea. someone should start a website for ex-members of mars hill. there, we could all deposit our stories. several good things about this idea: other ex-members could say to themselves, or each other, “that happened to you too?” current mars hill members could maybe find their way out of this insidious group by seeing all of this information at once. and, other current mars hill members could have a central location at which to respond with things like, “nu-uh. he would never say that!” saving them lots of hassle.
i would honestly love for this to happen. but i am not web-savvy. i would gladly join and add my own anecdotes from my 7 months of attendance in 2000-2001. i ate dinner at the driscolls’ home (he was much more accessible then) and was in the “inner circle” for a time, so i’ve got lots of insane stories. i also lost a good friend because i tried to show her how messed up it was. how cult-ish does that sound?
Comment by: JL
272Do you honestly not think that church members have a level of responsibility to “take what is useful and beneficial and discard the rest”? (I mean this in regard to what any pastor says - not what the Bible says). When I asked my husband who attended this retreat if Mark advocated or discussed anal sex, he told me “no”. Again, this was over 2 years ago. Not once has he EVER suggested in any way that we try it. If it was discussed in any way, he decided that it was not benefical, so he discarded it. Can we not assume that Ally’s husband & her friend’s husband wanted to try it, therefore, they chose not to discard it? Why is it the pastor’s fault? He said it’s not wise or beneficial, but can he really tell husbands “no you are forbidden to do this!” when the Bible does not speak into this specifically? People are always looking for loopholes into doing whatever they want. I don’t see how this is any different.
Comment by: jonny
273in regaurds to #265 I will say that Christ did not die to save your feelings (or my feelings, or anyone’s for that matter). Christ came to take our hearts of stone and give us a heart of flesh. Even those that love christ still battle sin within there heart. Paul said that our members are at war with each other in our body (Rom 7:22-24) I have know doubt that any of our wickedness is any more beautiful than marks. If any one thinks that’s the case then repentence for there self-righteousness is in order. I would also say that if someone doesn’t feel worthy before Jesus then they must be doing something right…BECAUSE WE’RE NOT. Yes there is a hope that Christ’s sacrivice on the cross is sufficient to cover our sins. No were should that ever make us feel worthy for His abundant grace and forebearance with our wickedness. If we continue with your boat analogy then drowning would be refering to eternity in hell (I may be understanding it incorrectly) and you don’t go to hell for hurting someones feelings. If that was the case then most on this blog would be going becasue my feelings are hurt.
For #263, If I understand you correctly what you are assentially saying is that you have to wait too long to get an answer from the horses mouth so I will use that circumstance as part of an answer I will make for him. Just because you hold your offense in such great asteam doesn’t mean everyone else has to. Just think, if Mark stopped doing everything he was doing and just begun meeting with those he as either offended, or have possibly misunderstood him, I would venture to say that you would still be waiting at least two years. So what the heck does it matter. Are you gonna be upset because he didn’t value your gripe above someone else’s. And then for everyone thinking that if he didn’t offend anyone or get misunderstood by so many he wouldn’t have this problem. I think that if there is any cognative faculty available to process this one would know that that is simply not possible without compromising the bible. Jesus pissed off people during His time on earth and continues to piss poeple off through those that teach what He taught. HE got them so mad they killed Him. Now do you think that He should repent for hurting there feelings?
And last but not least about the whole anal sex thing. If you listen to Mark long enough (which it doesn’t sound like any of you are doing because you shut him off the minute you are offended and start to pout like children) you would hear him say that nothing in the bible speeks out against anal sex between a husband and wife. You could try and take an inference from Romans, but I think one would be hard pressed to get it while staying within context. Mark has said on numerous occasios that he will not speek were scripture does not speek. That is, if the bible doesn’t say anything about a certain subject then he will not take it upon himself to make it say what he thinks. He will (I would imagine) get as much information about that subject as possible and try to form a conclusion. But he will not speek for God were God has not spoken. Which will bring me to what I think mark would say about anal sex. In fact if any men would go to the men’s retreat’s they hold once a year, you can get his difinitve position on this. After attending one of these retreats I found that his position on anal sex is as follows. Any relations with the same sex (homosexuals/Lesbians) is explicetly prohibited by God. Anal sex is not clear in regards to a husband and wife but mark would give this heed. The anus was not meant for intercourse so be aware that if it is consentual from both parties then be extremely careful. A woman could easily get hurt and sex is not meant to hurt someone but bring a man and wife closer together and glorify Christ. He also says that sexual freedoms that aren’t prohibited biblically are between them and the Lord. So long as what they have consented to is bring unity and not division to there marriage, mark sees no place to intervein.
Comment by: kelly
274JL,
i think that you are purposefully missing ally’s point. according to her story (which i wholeheartedly believe, having been told by one too many mars hill members that i misunderstood or misheard or was making something up), mark suggested that, if a woman is having her period, she should offer herself anally to her husband. you are asking why it would be necessary for a pastor to tell forbid someone of such a thing. but what you are dismissing or forgetting is that he is the one who suggested it.
Comment by: JL
275I’m still not buying it. We’ve heard from a deacon, an elder (through Benjamin Ady’s interaction with Pastor Lief), a few other people, and me (through my husband) that this was never suggested.
Comment by: JL
276One other thing…
While you may be thinking that the deacon & elder may have something to gain by defending pastor mark, can you tell me why my husband’s account is inferior to ally’s husband’s?
All I’m saying is this: explain to me why a pastor might say something and one husband chooses one path and another husband chooses a different path. The choice lies with the husband.
Comment by: Wolfie
277Pride and arrogance affect pastors and leaders in churches more than anything I can think of. In my years of experience in church, both as a layperson and paid staff, I have only been shepherded by 1 or 2 men who remained humble. For the most part, the pastors I’ve served under became prideful and puffed up as the church grew. I think it has alot to do with the attention they get. Whether from television exposure or book sales or speaking engagements, they let their own self importance get the best of them. I’ve also seen this happen to Christian music personalities.
Many times, the only way to correct a situation like this is to wait for a fall of some kind. Perhaps Mars Hill’s present financial crisis could serve as a springboard to change. I don’t know. I struggle with how to deal with all this. The world is hateful enough. I wonder why God allows so much hateful behavior to happen inside his own church.
I feel, at times, that God has called me to be a catalyst for change, but, for the life of me, I do not know how. What can little, old me do against the Mark Driscolls of this world? I wish I knew.
Comment by: Corrie
278Hi JL, while I appreciate the deacon’s response to my question and I have high reguard for him and his email to me, Ally and her husband were members of Mars Hill at the time that this all happened. Surely a pastor can take a few minutes with the both of them and clarify to the husband and wife that he in no way advocated for anal sex when the wife was vaginally unavailable and that he thinks sodomy is unwise and unhealthy. He can make sure that the wife knows that he in no way told the husbands to go home and demand sodomy when God created a perfectly good and natural way to have intercourse.
I would think that Romans 1 fits in here, too. What is Romans 1 talking about when it says that the man “and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women “? Is anal sex natural relations with women? If it is, why when a woman is murdered and raped do they make the distinction that she was also sodomized.
Most look at this act as very unnatural and highly degrading and demeaning. I, although I am not a pastor, could make a very good case that anal sex is not only unwise and unhealthy but it is highly unnatural and may even violate Romans 1.
I am not of the opinion that anything goes in the bedroom as long as someone is married. If a man comes home with the idea of having anal sex, there is a good chance he got the idea from porn. Sodomy is normalized in porn where women are just objects and a means to self-gratification. If we really take a look at the act, how does this fit into wanting to please one’s wife and not being selfish? Isn’t sex about the other person? That is what I have always been taught. I have sex to please my husband and a byproduct of that is I receive pleasure myself. He has the same mentality. It is the mentality behind the whole thing that disturbs me.
Since Ally’s husband got this idea from Mark’s talk with the men, I don’t think it is too much to expect him to explain it from his own mouth and leave no question in her mind or his that he said anything to the contrary.
I know pastors with much larger churches than that who have time to set such a major issue straight. How long would it take? Half hour? How come none of the big names like Piper, MacArthur, Swindoll, Stanley, Sproul, etc have problems with so many people misunderstanding what they are saying? Could it be a problem that Mark might have to work on?
And I am not suggesting that every time that a person in a church has a problem the pastor must make himself at his/her beck and call. That is just plain silly. Whoever suggested something like that?
Again, I appreciate Jon and his kindness in his response to me. I have much respect for him and I don’t even know him.
Comment by: Corrie
279Hi Jonny, I promise not to pout like a little baby. In fact, I hate pouting. I don’t allow my children to pout and I don’t pout. That is for people who are immature and manipulative.
I agree with you that we cannot judge what two married people do in the privacy of their own bedroom. I would rather not know, personally, and I think that promoting something so questionable and obviously selfish and that has a high potential to hurt a person’s body is foolish. I also agree with you that we should not speak where God has not spoken. I am totally against legalism.
I am choosing to give the benefit of the doubt. I am believe what Jon has told me in his letter but I also know that Mark doesn’t communicate things clearly as evidence by all the people being so confused as to what he is saying. Maybe he wasn’t as clear in that one message as Jon was in his letter to me? Could that even be possible?
Ally has suffered real pain because of this and we should not dismiss her. That is abuse. And to say that she selfishly refused to do her biblical duty to her husband by having anal sex (that is what one member of Mars Hill said today over at Bob’s blog and this was AFTER Jon posted his letter to me), is outrageously wrong.
Jon’s letter was 10 steps in the right direction. Some of these responses are just undoing the good that the leadership of Mars is trying to do. Please, do not speak for the church leaders on this because you contradict everything they have told me.
And the “you” in the above comment is for all who want to speak.
Comment by: Corrie
280The following quote is from Phil in regards to Ally and her friend and this was written AFTER Jon the deacon from Mars posted his response. It is responses like these from those who go to Mars Hill that have me questioning what these people are actually hearing over there. It seems that this guy “Phil” and Ally’s husband heard the same thing but “Phil” thinks that it is a husband’s right to demand and want it and a wife’s duty to give it and if she doesn’t she is being selfish. Notice the person says that we need a spirit of “selflessness”. I find that highly ironic esp. concerning the subject matter. A husband who demands an unnatural, harmful and disgusting in the eyes of most people sex act is not selfish but a wife who refuses is not being selfless?
Maybe the leaders at Mars could tell these people they are doing them no favors? It sounds like some of these people need some logic lessons (to improve reading comprehension) and studies in proper hermeneutics.
I need a loufa scrub for my brain after being subjected the reality of what goes on in some people’s minds.
“But what I sense here is a spirit of independence, not selflessness. Mark boldly teaches what 1 Cor 7 teaches; namely that the husband and wife “do NOT have authority” over their own bodies, as 1 Cor. 7:4 is crystal clear. They OWN each other. “No take-backs” is how Mark puts it. This whole “It’s my body and you can’t make me!” cockiness is just a shame among Christians in (allegedly) one-flesh marriages. Yeah, I would expect it among the “Our Bodies, Ourselves” feminist view, but not among Bible-believing Christians. I read that Mark candidly laid out the broad Biblical bounds for sexual pleasure within a marriage… but yet when those men went to their wives with those desires they were rebuffed and it “nearly caused the breakup” of a marriage! But who’s to blame for the near-destruction… the pastor that preached freedom within marriage, or the wife who obviously denied her husband’s otherwise Biblical request? To ask the question is to answer it, of course. And for what reason such denial? Because she didn’t feel like it? Seething, sinful, selfishness. It’s not the Bible, or Mark, that’s threatening to marriages; rather it’s the “I only have to do what I want to do, when I want to do it, how I want to do it” selfishness. “
Comment by: Helen
281Wolfie, thanks for your comment. Thanks for caring and wanting to make a difference. I also find it’s not always easy to know how to do that.
JL wrote:
JL, speaking for myself, I wouldn’t say that it is. I honestly don’t know what to think given that some men seem to have heard one thing and others, another.
Comment by: Julie Marie
282oh good grief. this attitude towards a woman who didn’t want to try anal sex, and the dismissal of the marriage troubles that resulted from it, is so icky the writer has lost all crediblity with me. What a hate-filled rant.
Comment by: Submission
283Too much time wasted on this blog and others.
Heb 13:17 - - “Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.”
Listen fellow bloggers - we are not making the work of our elders a joy. Find a church where you can submit to your elders’ authority and stay there. Spend the time you would be typing away at a blog post or comment - on your knees in repentance and prayer and see how that changes things.
Comment by: jonny
284Corrie, I completely agree with you. Anal sex in my own preference is discusting. I would naturally think that it is obvious that that part of the body is self explanitory. So in no way am I one who prefers that kind of sexual activity wiht my wife (she shares my preference.) I do think that ally’s husband was very wrong in demanding the specific sexual act of anal sex from her wife and using Mark’s view point grounds for his demand. That is something that should be nipped in the but by the elders if not even the memebers of the church he attends. I am quite sure if he attended Mars Hill that would be the case.
I would also like to present a word of causion to those who use there hurt feelings as grounds for there stand against mark. I absolutely agree that false teaching should be dealt with. It is false teaching that seperated me from a church I had attended for six years with the utmost of dedication. It is false teaching that paul also deals with as a very inportant issue. I simply think that we should make sure that first the problem we have is specifically biblical and second that the path on which we desire to hold to is also biblical.
I have noticed a more fearless fight over people’s hurt feelings in this blog rather than God’s word. People’s feelings will get hurt. We value ourselves so much that teh minute we are hurt we will either retaliate or defend our hurt or whatever. I do not say this to legitamise a blatent verbal abuse on people to cause them hurt. That too is just as sinful. I think itis important to check to make sure we are defending the value of christ and not ourselves. There is nothing of value in us. If we have any value it is because Christ has made us valuable, removing any grounds for boasting in that valuableness.
Comment by: jonny
285does that include you “submission”?
Comment by: Mark
286Jesus I love you, and I know that many of us here love you. Help us to know how to love you, and how to love our brothers, sisters, and enemies. We ask that you would speak to our hearts, and show us your ways. Please forgive us for the wrong that we have said and done. Let us focus on being a light to those who need it. Amen.
Comment by: Helen
287Thanks Mark. Could you also pray that those who have been hurt will be healed?
Comment by: Rachel
288Ummmm….NO!
Comment by: Dan Brown
289“That is something that should be nipped in the but” — good one, jonny! :B (I save my more constructive comments for Bob’s blog.)
Comment by: Ally
290Corrie, I agree with this. And again, I will vouch that Jon is an honest man. One thing that I want to point out is that we have never intended for there to be a witch hunt against Mark over the anal sex discussion.
1. YES it was hurtful to us and NO we obviously do not agree with that topic being discussed as it was. But we have had to forgive Mark and move on.
2. This happened over 2 years ago, and as I said above, I don’t know that Mark would say these things now. The fact is that, while damaging, it was a picture in time. In fairness, I have never heard him teach this with my own ears and my husband has never heard him mention it again either.
3. Clearly, after this, he is not going to say it again (unless he truly theologically believes it is right to do so, and I can’t believe that he does at this point). And the fact is, what matters right now is in moving forward and the fact that he won’t discuss it again. THAT is what I think is important here.
Let’s show grace where it is due. We have never expected Mark to be perfect. He spoke WAY out of turn 2 years ago. It harmed us terribly. But as long as he doesn’t do it again, then what more can we ask?
Sure an apology would be awesome, but we are past that now - at least as far as the anal sex stuff goes. Let’s not beat a dead horse, as long as we know it is dead.
What hurts me way more, and what I am far more concerned about, is the position of power that Mark is now in. The fact that no truth but Mark’s is permissible in the church. THAT is where we should be focusing our attention, friends.
Ally
Comment by: Helen
291Ally wrote:
It’s not good for anyone when the leader of a group can’t be disagreed with: not the group members, nor the leader.
Comment by: Corrie
292Jonny, thank you for your thoughts. I appreciate them. It truly is helpful and I know it is helpful to a lot of people too afraid to comment.
Comment by: benjamin ady
293I think that what a man in a position of power like Mark Driscoll (that is, a man who knows that other people look up to him, listen to his teaching, and intend to implement it) should be emphasizing overwhelmingly to married guys about sex is this: We (guys) live in a culture where the overwhelming message is that women are objects, women are worthless unless they are young, thin, and beautiful, women are sexually assaulted, women are beaten–all in all, women have a pretty shitty time overall, and it’s mostly the fault of guys who are saying and doing all these abusive things to women. So in light of the fact that we are swimming in this pool, and breathing this freaking air, our first priority with our wives should be to give the lie to all this crap, and tell our wives both in words and deeds that they are beautiful, period, and that that they are worthy of respect and love, period. Our number one goal in regards to sex with our wives should be to be romantic, and kind, and gracious, and focused on what *they* want. Etc. Etc. Etc. etc. etc.
And if someone in a position of power, like mark, is focusing on anything else when teaching married men about sex, then by default, that is, by not swimming against the cultural tide, he is swimming with it, and reinforcing it.
That’s what I think.
Comment by: Ann
294Um YES IT IS.
This is the order of headship as I understand it:
God
Pastor
Husband
Wife
Kids
Animals
Also in post #166 is a detailed description of headship, marriage and more. I do have more info if you want it. Mark is always good about posting the biblical references so feel free to look in your bible yourself.
Comment by: Jennifer
295Ann,
Do you really beleive that on matter of opinion a pastor can over-rule a husband? If a husband has no problem with who his wife chooses as friends, should the pastor really step in and try to take control of the situation?
Comment by: David
296I have read every post on this very long page and my heart just breaks for all the people involved. I am sorry for those that feel abused, but I’m especially sorry for Mark. Yes, I’m sympathetic to Mark in this whole ordeal. Why? Because things have gone from misinterpreting his post to one-sided hearsay about outrageous statements he is to have said, which everyone seems to believe without any proof. This whole discussion can be equated to gossip. Is it fair to attach so much weigh to anonymous claims of abuse? What does scripture say regarding these situations? Proverbs 18:17: “The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him.” 1 Timothy 5:19: “Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses.”
I’ve got to say, if such claims of mistreatment by Mark or anyone at Mars Hill are substantiated, then I feel terribly sorry for Ally and those that were sinned against. That’s a big “if,” though. I’m sorry if this comes across as harsh, but I’m much more inclined to side with Mark than an anonymous blogger on the internet. Can you blame me, or others for questioning the validity of such claims? He is a man of God who sincerely loves Jesus with all his heart, and with the help of Christ he has built the largest church in the state in a place where Christians are rare. I acknowledge that Mark has a problem taming his tongue, but the sort of words you are putting into his mouth are totally out of character even for him in his earlier “cussing” days; they are slanderous and inflammatory and devoid of love for God’s people.
Let’s assume the claims are true. What is the intention of putting this stuff up on a blog? How in the world can healing be brought about for you by airing this dirty laundry in a public forum? Is it healing or defamation of a well known Pastor that you’re seeking? I sincerely question your motives. Mark is a popular dartboard for people these days, and he speaks about biblical roles which are incredibly unpopular in our culture, but his claims are backed up by scripture. Is spreading accusations like gossip on the internet supported by scripture? Hebrews 4:12 says that the word of God “discerns the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” I pray that those who claim Christ on this forum would weigh their emotions and reactions against scripture, for the benefit of everyone. I end with the words of James, “therefore confess your sins to each other so that you may be healed.” I pray this for both sides of the debate.
Comment by: Helen
297Jennifer, did you become a member of Mars Hill? If so you probably agreed to be under the spiritual authority of the leadership. That’s usually part of the membership pledge/agreement/covenant in non-denominational conservative Bible-based churches.
Comment by: Ally
298Hi David,
My husband and I were the originators of the personal accounts, as you know. The past couple of days this exact question has come to mind for us. Why post this stuff?
For me, I can explain it this way. I am not afraid to examine my motives, and I have been doing so the past couple days. I have kept quiet about my experience as a woman in the church for so long. You have to be in the midst of it to really understand it, what it was like, and what I am left with - the spiritual desolation.
My first inclination was to just leave the church and forget about it; let the other people in the church make their choices. I realize that Mark’s approach really does work for many, many people. It didn’t work for me, and I was left SO scarred by his approach and his strong opinions, that there comes a point where I need to say, NO, this is wrong. Mark can really believe whatever he wants, but when you are not ALLOWED to have a difference of opinion, over time you (well, *I*)begin to lose your hold on who you are.
What attracted us to Helen’s site were the posts concerning Mark’s comments on the Haggard scandal. His comments were really inappropriate (most especially in the timing), and he should know better. He has become so whimsical and even bullying in throwing his opinion around and it is hurtful to people - hurtful to women.
I am a woman, I am a woman who has been hurt by Mark Driscoll - very spiritually hurt. I am learning to not allow myself to be hurt like this anymore. And if posting on a message board and saying “yes, you are right. It’s wrong, this is how I personally have been wronged, please pray for me, for Mark, for the church” looks in any way sketchy to you, then I apologize. I meant no offense. And I sincerely meant no offense to Mark. I have been clear that I love and support him, but what he has been doing and saying are not okay.
If you don’t want to believe the anal sex comments, that is fine. You are correct that to you and everyone else they are hearsay and should reasonably be treated as such. I would do the same in your shoes. So, how about the things that Mark has indeed done and said in the public eye? Do they hold enough weight of wrongness to evidence a problem here? I believe they do, and so do many others.
When you are in a situation like I am in - coming out of a church like this - you desperately need other people to mirror you, to tell you “you are right, it’s not okay that that happened to you.” I constantly doubt myself in favor of others and THIS time I needed others to come alongside me and support me for a change. I have hidden in the shadows, ALONE, way too long about this issue. It’s time for me to get past it and to learn about love instead of about the shame Mark taught me.
I hope this makes sense and that you can understand where I am coming from. Genuine feedback from others in an anonymous forum has been really necessary and such a blessing for me right now; even opinions on both side of the aisle.
Ally
Comment by: Jennifer
299Helen,
When we became members the emphasis was on affirming a small handful of gospel essentials and agreeing to hold everything else in an open hand, and not be devisive on it. We statement we signed could have been easily affimed by most Christians across the world - it had no particulars about women, church authority, friendship, ministry roles, home roles, etc.
I believe they have sinced tightened up their process, but I’m not sure of the details.
Comment by: David
300Ally,
Thank you for the response. About Mark, you attribute the following to him in your previous post: spiritual desolation, being scarred by his approach, losing hold of you who are because of his instruction, being very spiritually hurt, being shameful because of his teachings. These are all roughly direct quotes. If I understand what you’ve written correctly, Mark Driscoll has gravely sinned against you. Would you say this is the case? When it comes down to it, sin has to be the issue: you feel sinned against by Mark and perhaps the leadership of Mars Hill. Can you please qualify the sins he has committed against you so that we can put a name to the sin?
I understand your need for seeking healing, and you don’t need to apologize to me. I’m trying to understand where you’re coming from, but I can’t help but be reminded of Matthew 18:15: “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.” This is Jesus’ teaching. He encourages us to seek reconciliation with our brother, and to do so in a very specific way — by telling him of his sin in private. I still must tell you that if your claims are true and Mark has seriously sinned against you, causing “spiritual desolation” and scarring, I can’t help but see the backward approach of leaving the church altogether and posting your thoughts on an internet forum intent on criticizing Mark. Your actions evidence that there is no resolution of this past event — you say you love Mark but you are quick to blurt out his sins against you in public. Additionally, you say you have been hiding in the shadows with this for some time, alone. What do you mean by alone, if you have a husband who loves you and understands where you are coming from? Once again, I just don’t understand.
David
Comment by: Helen
301Jennifer, I would guess they have tightened things up now, because the informal statement on their site says regarding the membership covenant: “the elders and deacons are covenanted to assist members first and foremost, to love and lead, provide counsel and aid, as well as to pray for, teach, and guide.” That implies that members probably covenant to be under their spiritual authority, in turn. But I didn’t find a copy of the actual covenant online to see what it says.
Comment by: Ann
302Jennifer,
I think you don’t understand that I don’t think it is ALL a matter of opinion. God tells us not to give the appearance of sin. If you are out alone with a man other than your husband that is giving the appearance of sin. So that is sinful.
Comment by: Winn
303Nice guy in Seattle Times by day, Fightin’ Fundie by night.
A friend and mentor told me years ago to remember: “Your brother and sister are never you enemy, your enemy is your enemy.” What if the writers on this blog took those words to heart. How would the comments, almost ad nauseam in this comment section, change? Some seem to get a bit too much joy calling Mark a Fundamentalist. He may be, but some of the comments of those who seem to glee in not being fundamentalists seem fundamentalists in the attempt to not be fundamentalists. Is this conversation a bit toxic or what? Here’s a different side of Mark: A young man’s faith gives hope to those who mourn him.
BTW: I’m not defending Mark any more than I am defending those who seem to want to spiritually string him up. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. So how can one who is a brother, who has seemingly offended others, become the subject of prayer without the venom? I am saddened for those whose stories of pain Mark has created. I am saddened for all the pain I have caused in the lives of others. Might we all request forgiveness for the pain we have caused in the lives of others. May we forgive and be forgiven on earth as we are in the presence of God.
I realize that blogs/comments are a wonderful way of expressing feelings about what we have experienced. The one thing that I wish was different is the anonymity. I know groups like AA have excelled with anonymity as a staple, but anonymity does not allow for stories to be verified, especially stories about others. I also understand that anonymity allows one to present views without being attacked for what they are saying, especially those coming out of toxic and abusive church systems.
Helen, you may have already done this, but this would be the kind of material where a discussion board is useful. At least one can correspond with others within such a community, if they want verification and the teller of the story wants to share at a deeper level.
Just a thought…
Comment by: Ann
304Here is a passage for ALL of us.
Romans 12
Living Sacrifices
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his[b]faith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
Love
9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13Share with God’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited.
17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d]says the Lord. 20On the contrary:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e] 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Comment by: Ann
305Jennifer,
I have been thinking about what you and your husband have said about a “witch hunt” happening to you. Well let me ask you this, isn’t that what is going on for Mark and Mars Hill?
Comment by: Ann
306Exodus 23:2
2 “Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd,
Comment by: iggy
307Benjamin, in response to #195
I think you are not getting the point…
I said that we are not to judge until the appointed time… which is a direct quote from scripture…
Then you quoted “there is a time and season for everything” out of Ecclesiastes, which only really furthered my point that it is not the time or season to judge. The time will come when the Judge returns… that is Jesus BTW.
I say hate is not a Christian value… (Though the bible says to abhor that which is evil)… you then did a double twist to justify both judging another man’s servant and justifying hate…
“Love you enemy” is pretty clear… “Do not repay evil with evil” is pretty clear…
If as you say GOD hates certain things… which He does… then isn’t it better for Him to judge those things than us? Is not Jesus been set above all created things and will come to judge all things at the appointed time and season…(turn, turn, turn)
Why then do we usurp Jesus’ rightful position… and trust that he will set all his enemies under his own feet… why do we think we can do better than God?
Why do you think we can judge the motives of another’s heart?
Your very argument also supports Mark and sets a great defense for him… It justifies hate… of the very people that Jesus came to die for… “For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!” What if God did not love… and just hated and handed out justice instead of mercy?
Why do you now argue that we do anything different that God did?
Also, I think you and I would have much more in common than you realize… I do not think of you as an enemy… I see that the idea of a protest against Mark is a very poor idea… on that needs much more prayer and thought put into it…
I see this is an issue that though Mark may or may not be a contributor to the hatred of women… but I do know this… there are many women who do believe the way Mark teaches… both in and outside of Mark’s church… In the attempt to stop Mark from subjugating women… are the one’s going out to protest… also subjugating women who disagree wit them? I find it funny again, the idea that one thinks that by using hateful speech and attack someone… that they are better in their version of shoving their view down someone else’s throats! I see no difference in the protestors and what Mark has or has not done… even if he is guilty… then should then energy be put in a more productive way? As I have said, Mark is most probably not going to change… and if he even just bring cookies out to the protestor and even on of the protestor is heard to shout “Misogynist” at him… they will be no different than the people who shout, “baby killer!” at abortion clinic protest… or any different that the person who shoots the doctor who performs the procedure… When did we decide our rights are more important that being peacemakers and living as the scripture teaches… “Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Do you think there are weaker brothers and sisters who may not get what you think is being accomplished and cause them to stumble by perpetuating hate?
Why do we want to resort to the tactics of this world over the teachings of God?
Blessings,
iggy
Comment by: Ally
308David,
You raise some good points, and have given me some things to think about. I had not thought about this in light of Mark sinning against ME in particular. I want to think about that some more. I more feel that as Mark has gained more and more power, his humility has likewise decreased.
He has what I would consider some radically conservative views. That was something I did know going in. But like Jennifer has mentioned, as members we were covenanted to agree with the basic tenets of the faith (which I still agree with), and were repeatedly told that we didn’t need to agree with the secondary issues as long as we didn’t cause division.
As Mark has gotten more notariety and become more untouchable, unreachable, and isolated from his congregation, he has more and more been pursuasively demanding of his congregation to agree with secondary issues because they “are Biblical.”
Jennifer’s case is an example. She did not agree with his Biblical interpretation about the male friends issue, though she still upheld the core values she had covenanted to. Jennifer did NOT in any way, shape, or form cause division in disagreeing on this secondary issue, yet she was bullied terribly by Mark and threatened to have her membership revoked (among other things). This was very instructive to me, and others, about what happens to someone who brings their concerns and disagreements to Mark.
I am glad you quoted this verse. You are right. It actually calls to mind a time that I did once have a problem with something Mark did, and I approached him about it. Instead of blowing me off or giving me a pat answer, he cleared out an entire afternoon and talked with me about it. He was incredibly gracious and humble and really listened to me. I will never forget it. The problem is, this was many many years ago (way before the incident with Jennifer).
This was the old Mark. This was the pastor who I called “shepherd.” I miss that pastor so much. I think it was because he WAS that shepherd-pastor to me back years ago that I trusted him so much and was so vulnerable to his increasingly intense teachings. After more years of intense teaching and less actual shepherding, I was in totally over my head and had no idea who I was. All I knew is that every time I walked into the church I felt SHAME. Every time I open my Bible I feel SHAME. I no longer feel love. I no longer see Jesus’ face.
If I were to try to approach Mark today about any of this, here is what would happen. Even though Mark knows me, he would never hear my plea for reconciliation. I could call him. I would get his assistant, who would take a message. I could email him. It would be intercepted by the same assistant. I would be encouraged to speak to one of the other elders instead. I would wait to hear from Mark forever and never would because he is too big for this kind of thing now. Maybe if I brought a picket sign into church with really big lettering? Kind of hard to do to a video feed.
Hey, I know the church is huge now and he is only one man. But that’s part of the problem. No one can get to him to discuss anything, let alone reconcile or confront him with sin.
Comment by: Ally
309I do love Mark. At heart I know he still is the pastor that he used to be. I pray that his ego will decrease, and that he will once again return to the humble man of God he used to be.
Quick to blurt out? No, sir. More like a very, very long process - years long - of being consistently spiritually harmed. With absolutely no outlet. Approach Mark? Can’t get to him. Approach another elder? Done that several times to no avail. Approach another church member? Nope, that would cause division. Endure alone. That’s what I did. Finally the cup overflowed and I needed an outlet; here it is.
Comment by: Ally
310Another good question. My husband is a wonderful man. Without going into much detail, we struggled so much in our marriage because of this church. He was convinced he was not man enough because he doesn’t make much money. I was convinced that I was a “cancer” wife because I worked and am overweight. I was angry at him for beings so “lazy” and not going out there and providing for me adequately. On and on and on. Though he was suffering alongside me with his own parts of Mark’s teachings, he was not my ally. Neither of us could talk to each other about this.
Another issue was that my husband did not want to admit that the problem was the church; he was too busy convinced that he was solely to blame. He pressured me terribly for a very long time to continue going. I begged him to please take us out of this church, that it was killing us spiritually and our marriage as well. It took him a very long time before he heard me.
He is my ally in this now. However, as is the case oftentimes with men, he mostly closes off about it and doesn’t want to talk much. I understand. He still deals with the incredible shame he learned from Mark. We are both healing.
This blog has been a blessing to me. I have not meant to cause any detriment to Mark. But at the risk of tarnishing his reputation (which he is increasingly tarnishing himself), it was time for me to take the first step to speak out and get support.
Comment by: benjamin ady
311If we are going to quote the old testament in support of our ideas, I think we should point out that it includes passages like this:
from Bible gateway Deut 22:20-21
Comment by: benjamin ady
312iggy,
thankyou for your thoughtful comments. You made me think. I appreciate it. It seems to me that we disagree on some things. I’m okay with that. Brian spoke at a conference I attended two weeks ago about kindness and justice, and he gave a great illustration. He said what if a group of people is by a river bank, a swollen, nearly flooding river bank, and they see someone out in the water being carried downstream. So they form a human chain, and work their way out into the water, and rescue the person. And then they see another person, and they rescue them. And then another. And so on. Well, pretty soon, someone is going to think, maybe we should send a party upriver to stop the guy who is throwing people into the river. I think that’s kind of what this protest is about, trying to stop the guy from throwing people in the river. And I think nonviolent demonstration has been shown to *work* at stopping people from throwing people into the river. See Ghandi. See Martin Luther King Jr. Etc.
Comment by: benjamin ady
313This sounds amazingly familiar! I saw again how really shockingly sad this is tonight when I went to hear Dr. Paul Farmer speak at UW earlier this evening. He heads up a huge international medical agency, PIH, that is providing medical care for some of the poorest people on the planet in the countries of Haiti, Rwanda, and elsewhere. He just flew in today from central africa to seattle for this speaking engagement. Yet at the end of his talk tonite to thousands of UW students, he hung around afterwards for as long as it took for anyone who wanted to talk to him to get to. I thought that was beautiful. He looked so happy too, interacting with people. I bet Mark Driscoll is like that too, and it’s so sad that he has cut himself off in this way.
Comment by: Mike Clawson
314No, it is not a witch-hunt for people to simply stand up and say “We believe that what this person teaches is wrong and hurtful to others.” It’s not a witch-hunt for people to raise their voices in disagreement. If Mark has the freedom to publically express his views on women, then others have the freedom to publically say why they think he is wrong.
If he can’t stand the heat he should stay out of the kitchen.
Comment by: Mike Clawson
315Or to use another cliche…
If he’s going to dish it out, he’d better be willing to take it.
Comment by: benjamin ady
316Boy that sounds amazingly familiar! I saw again tonight how shockingly sad that is when I went to see Dr Paul Farmer speak at UW earlier this evening. He heads a huge international medical orgainization, PIH, which provides basic health care for some of the poorest people in the world in places like Haiti and Rwands. He flew in from Cenral Africa today to share about his work with thousands of UW students, and aftwerwards, he hung out to talk with people for as long as it took until everyone who wanted to got to talk with him. And he looked like he was having a great time. I bet Mark Driscoll is reall a bit like that too, and it’s so sad that he has so cut himself off from regular people.
Comment by: Ann
317So i guess then Mike you are saying that the way in which Jennifer was treated on the members forum, which i assume you have no idea as to what i am talking about since you aren’t Mars Hill member, was not a witch hunt either and that those women and men were just speaking their peace. I highly doubt that Jennifer will see it that way.
And Mike really this has nothing to do with how much Mark can take. That is just childish.
Comment by: Ann
318You know it is also pretty childish to stand out in front of a building to protest. wouldn’t time be better spent praying for the individuals you are protesting. It’s not like a protest is going to get mars hill kicked out of seattle or mark to stop preaching and teaching. God’s word will go on and well you can’t stop that no matter how many picket signs you hold. There are many churches that I disagree with and I feel are harmful to it’s congregation for the mere reason of not preaching God’s word as God intended but do I stand outside their front doors on a Sunday, no, but I do pray for them. Sometimes silence is better and prayer is always more powerful. God calls us to imitate Him and I don’t think you’d ever see Christ with a picket sign.
Comment by: benjamin ady
319me and Dr. Martin Luther King Junior–the childish ones.
I think it’s childish to sit under the authority of a man like Mark Driscoll.
Comment by: Ann
320well I am a child of God after all.
Comment by: Ann
321wow ben that is pretty arrogant to compare yourself and put yourself next to MLKJ
Comment by: benjamin ady
322Ann: 3 things:
1. Yep, you nailed it. Arrogance is definitely in my top 5.
2. Takes one to know one (so na na na na na na) =)
3. You were the one who called him silly. so which is it? is he silly, or are we not silly? can’t have it both ways.
Comment by: benjamin ady
323sorry, that’s childish, not silly.
Comment by: Ann
324I am not even about to debate MLKJ to you. that is for an entirely different post. That man though is not without his own sins, like adultery.
Comment by: benjamin ady
325…as far as I can tell, according to Jesus, every man on the face of the planet has committed adultery. so why point it out? This is way off subject. My point was that Martin Luther King Jr. and co accomplished one hell of a lot for MTWABP by nonviolent protest. It wasn’t childish.
Comment by: Jim
326Since it is clear that there is disagreement and that none of us have had our minds changed through this exchange why dont we just call it good and say “see you in front of Mars Hill on Dec 3rd”
Everyone can get a hearing then. Im sure there will be plenty of newspaper and TV reporters anxious to hear from all sides.
Since it sounds as if no one from Mars Hill finds any merit in this action I am certain they have nothing to worry about and Mark will be free to represent himself to the reporters as well so why not just say we all agree to disagree and meet up on 12/3.
Comment by: Helen
327I’m going to say a few things things and then close the comments on this entry.
First, a quick response to something Ann wrote:
Interesting. So just who was that angry young man who was turning over over the tables in the portico until he got dragged away by the security guys? See Matt 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-16 or John 2:13-15. And People Against Fundamentalism has not suggested going that far.
Second, if you want are concerned about Mark Driscoll’s teachings on women, here’s what you can do:
1. Express your concerns on the People Against Fundamentalism blog. There are people there just like here arguing that there is nothing wrong with Mark’s teaching about women. It would be good if some of you who disagree strongly could explain why over there.
The more traffic and comments that site receives, the higher it will get in Google results and the more people will find out that a group is actually going to take a stand against Mark’s teachings on women.
2. Join the protest on December 3rd
3. If you don’t agree that a protest is helpful, share your own thoughts on PAF about what kind of action you would like to be involved in. Perhaps you can help PAF organize what you want to see in addition to the protest.
If you have been defending Mark here, of course you have the right to do so on PAF’s blog. Some people there already have been (perhaps you know them).
Third, as a result of what I’ve read here, I’ve posted the following entry this morning, for anyone who believes they have experienced spiritual abuse, or might have done and would like to find out more about what spiritual abuse is:
Spiritual Abuse Recovery Resources
That entry is open for comments but please do not make it a discussion about any particular church or leader.
Thanks everyone for your participation. I can’t be at the protest but maybe I will see you over on PAF’s blog.
Comment by: WinnNotes | Blog Archive | Rose Swetman’s Open Letter to Mark Driscoll
328 11/14/06 3:23 PM | Comment Link |[...] In our area (Seattle, WA), there has been a theological donnybrook of sorts around some ongoing remarks made by Mark Driscoll pastor of Mars Hill Church and commented on ad nauseam on the Convresation at the Edge blog. My pastor Rose Swetman has written an open letter to Mark. You may read Rose’s article here. Share and Enjoy:These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages. [...]
Comment by: all hell broke loose: flooding, britney, haggard, mark driscoll, golden calves? «
329 11/16/06 5:51 AM | Comment Link |[...] this has caused blog posts, pleas for reconciliation from chicago, a thorough and gutwrenching ‘open letter’ from pastor rose swetman (a local vineyard pastor who i’ve had the privilege of hosting for coffee at qcafe), emails, and yes, even a formally planned ‘demonstration against mark the misogynist’ on december 3 at their 11 am service. goodness gracious. i’m tempted to bail on quest’s 11.30 am service to see which might take place: Ultimate Fighting Club or Kumbayah. [...]
Comment by: Can I wash his feet? « Graceful Journey
330 11/17/06 11:21 PM | Comment Link |[...] Mark Driscoll and Women by Helen [...]
Comment by: emerging mosaic » Blog Archive » People Against Fundamentalism Take Action on Driscoll
331 11/27/06 2:00 PM | Comment Link |[...] Here is some of what they say about Driscoll and the protest on their blog. “He has been relishing in his misogyny, rolling around in it like a feline in catnip. His latest women-bashing came in a blog post about former pastor (and former head of the Christian umbrella organization National Association of Evangelicals) Ted Haggard’s marital infidelity. As is typical with misogynists and other abusers, Mark blamed women for the terribly hard time pastors have controlling their sexual urges: “It is not uncommon to meet pastors’ wives who really let themselves go…” The post makes for an interesting read; Helen, over at Conversation at the Edge dissected it well, so I won’t rehash it here. [...]