I should also say that I actually enjoy it when Mormons (or anyone else who’s not literally “selling” something) comes to my door. It’s pretty rare these days anymore (at least where I live), so I figure anyone who cares enough about their cause to come door-to-door should be pretty interesting to talk to. I’ve had some great conversations with Mormons, environmentalists, politicians, local referendum promoters, etc.
Granted, Saturday morning is pretty rude, but if someone does come by, I say don’t get upset. Instead, have some fun with it. Blow their mind, freak them out, or just have a good conversation.
I’ve only ever had Jehovah’s Witnesses come to my door.
If I’m not busy during the week and have the energy, I’ve sometimes tried to engage them in conversation. However I wouldn’t want to talk to them at the weekend - for me that’s ‘family time’ and not time to spend talking with strangers at the door.
I moved into my house about 10 years ago and I only recall one pair of Mormons. I noticed the guy flew to Salt Lake City from Australia. I wonder if Mormon evangelism is particularly big and aggravating in Australia?
We actually hosted a Mormon pro golfer on the Hooters tour in our home a few years ago. (That’s like single-A baseball–they make so little money they have to stay for free with local families to survive). Anyway, he never said a word about his religion. We found out after he left because our computer “history” showed visits to LDS cites. He didn’t even leave literature on the bedside table!
I recently read an article about Prince (of Purple Rain) converting to Jehovah’s Witness and going door to door. However, what sparked the article — which I think was in a Minnesota newspaper — was that he had the bad taste to go knocking on a Sunday afternoon when the Vikes were on TV. One or two of the people interviewed said they might have been thrilled to have the star musician in their home if he wasn’t interfering with their football enjoyment.
I was raised to run off Mormons, JWs, Seventh Day Adventists and their ilk. However, in the last 10 years I have gained some admiration for their efforts. Sure they seem to pop in at really inconvenient times — but when would it be convenient? But more importantly, they are at least pursuing their convictions at some cost to themselves. How many people do they deal with like those seen in the video?
I am a Christian who believes the Bible is the word of God and our guideline to living. However, if I am wrong and there is no God then I wasted my life loving and helping people. I don’t force anyone to believe what I believe however I will share my faith with others in the hope that they will accept Jesus as their savior. Once again if I’m wrong then what will happen to me when I die? Nothing? I will just rot? Now you must consider if the Bible is right. What will happen to the athiest? The Bible makes it clear that he will spend eternity seperate from God. The Bible is talking about ETERNITY! Do not be wrong about what happens when you die.
Consider atheism for a moment…doesn’t it take an all knowing knowledge to say there isn’t a God? Do you know everything there is about the universe? Can you see you have been everywhere and not seen him? As a Christian I merely need to see evidence of him through His creation to know there is a God, but to say he doesn’t exist tells me you know everything.
Atheism means “without belief in gods”. Not believing God exists is not necessarily the same as believing God does not exist; it just means the person is in the neutral position, without evidence that would persuade him or her of the validity of such a belief. As I said above, nonexistence of a thing cannot be proven, so it’s not that atheists think God has been disproven - that’s impossible. And lack of evidence for position “A” means lack of evidence for position “A” - it doesn’t prove that “A” doesn’t exist, nor does it prove anything else.
Technically, this kind of atheism is called “weak atheism”, and your definition above is what is called “strong atheism” - the denial of existence of god(s). Some atheists - a small proportion, I think - are strong atheists, but I don’t think any of us here are. Actually, weak atheism overlaps significantly with agnosticism, but most of the atheists here don’t call themselves agnostics, as that term implies a fair amount of uncertainty with the evidence that is available.
I have noticed that some Christians seem to assume that atheists are denying the existence of God, even when we say we are not. I guess it’s pretty hard to fathom if you haven’t been there (and that can go both ways, of course). But I’d hope that what each person says about his or her position, his or her own beliefs, can be taken at face value.
Faith can be defined as “belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.” I can see how it might seem like it takes chutzpah or insouciance to be an atheist (woo hoo, new vocabulary words tonight!!), especially since you commented that “atheism goes far beyond a healthy disregard for authority.” But unless you have a different definition of faith, I don’t see how it can take “faith” not to believe.
I am a Christian who believes the Bible is the word of God and our guideline to living. However, if I am wrong and there is no God then I wasted my life loving and helping people.
No way! I hope you don’t really believe that, DSan.
A life loving and helping people cannot help but have marvelous repercussions, whether there is a god or is not a god.
Loving and helping people makes your own life fulfilled and worthwhile. It means you spent your time here on earth in the best possible way.
Loving and helping others cannot help but enrich their lives, the lives of their families and friends and of everyone else that touches.
Do you see that the possibilities for good to come out of even a small act of kindness are just about limitless? There’s no way that that behavior is a “waste” of someone’s life - even if there’s no god, as we atheists speculate (note I said “speculate” as per the definition of weak atheist, above).
Sure they seem to pop in at really inconvenient times — but when would it be convenient? But more importantly, they are at least pursuing their convictions at some cost to themselves.
The ones I feel sorry for are the JW kids whom I’ve seen all dressed up and walking along with adults (their parents or other relatives?) on Saturday mornings, making house calls.
No sleeping in Saturday mornings, then lazing around watching cartoons or playing sports?! That’s just sad. :-(
I am a Christian who believes the Bible is the word of God and our guideline to living. However, if I am wrong and there is no God then I wasted my life loving and helping people.
No way! I hope you don’t really believe that, DSan.
A life loving and helping people cannot help but have marvelous repercussions, whether there is a god or is not a god.
Just my responses to Karen and DSan:
I am a Christian and have been immersed in this identity for over 30 years. At times I have wondered what it would be like to NOT believe. But I do not remember ever not really trusting that there is God watching, loving, creating and sustaining His Creation (including me and you all). So I must hypothesize:
I would still love and care about others. It seems right. It feels right. It sounds right. It makes sense. Love perpetuates the species, it is the best, most constructive response to the Creation. It seems like it would be the way to “aid” Evolution (if that’s all there was.) But one of the reasons I DO believe in God is for all those some reasons: Why does LOVE seem, sound, feel and reason to be the best and most constructive response to friends and neighbors, and even to enemies? Evolution itself doesn’t account for it. There are plenty of examples of survival of the fittest, not survival of the most loving and generous. No, Love commends itself to me in my heart because there is One Who first loved me and empowers me to continue that love… That’s one reason I believe in God.
There are others.
Nonetheless, even if you don’t believe in God, DO keep LOVING. Perhaps God will become more clear to you…more apparent, less transparent…
I am a Christian who believes the Bible is the word of God and our guideline to living. However, if I am wrong and there is no God then I wasted my life loving and helping people.
No way! I hope you don’t really believe that, DSan.
A life loving and helping people cannot help but have marvelous repercussions, whether there is a god or is not a god.
Just my responses to Karen and DSan:
I am a Christian and have been immersed in this identity for over 30 years. At times I have wondered what it would be like to NOT believe. But I do not remember ever not really trusting that there is God watching, loving, creating and sustaining His Creation (including me and you all). So I must hypothesize:
I would still love and care about others. It seems right. It feels right. It sounds right. It makes sense. Love perpetuates the species, it is the best, most constructive response to the Creation. It seems like it would be the way to “aid” Evolution (if that’s all there was.) But one of the reasons I DO believe in God is for all those some reasons: Why does LOVE seem, sound, feel and reason to be the best and most constructive response to friends and neighbors, and even to enemies? Evolution itself doesn’t account for it. There are plenty of examples of survival of the fittest, not survival of the most loving and generous. No, Love commends itself to me in my heart because there is One Who first loved me and empowers me to continue that love… That’s one reason I believe in God.
There are others.
Nonetheless, even if you don’t believe in God, DO keep LOVING. Perhaps God will become more clear to you…more apparent, less transparent…
In “A History of the Roman World 30BC to AD138″ by ET Salmon it is recorded (page 235) that Domitian’s cousin, Flavius Clemens was “charged with atheism, in other words with conversion to a foreign religion (probably Christianity)” and executed.
Have looked on internet which suggests he converted to Judiasm rather than Christianity. See:
In “A History of the Roman World 30BC to AD138? by ET Salmon it is recorded (page 235) that Domitian’s cousin, Flavius Clemens was “charged with atheism, in other words with conversion to a foreign religion (probably Christianity)” and executed.
Interesting, JG. I listened to this university course on religion and science earlier this year, and the prof made the point that there have been regular “atheist scares” throughout the centuries and most of them were not very valid. Kind of like the paranoid, “Communist-under-every-bed” mentality that we had in the US during the McCarthy era (1950s).
Actually, there were very, very few “out” atheists (no doubt there were people who doubted god’s existence privately) until about the 16th century. And even then it was - and to an extent still is - quite a taboo to be an atheist.
I actually took the series of classes from Mormon elders when they stopped by my house while I was an undergrad. They had to change elders a few times because of my questions. I listened respectfully, read the Book of Mormon, and as I said, asked many questions.
At the end of the series, of course they ask if you’d like to come to an activity and if you’d like to become a Mormon. I told the elders that while I appreciated learning their beliefs, it wasn’t for me. They asked why and I said I did not agree with their subservient role for women.
They said they had MANY opportunities for women! There’s the quilting bee, the sewing circle….
Years ago I lived in a city that was heavily Mormon populated. My best friends were Mormons, so naturally I had opportunities to talk with them, and when I was in high school I attended their seminary class meetings. After reading a few sections in the Book of Mormon, prayer, etc. I decided that Mormonism is simply an American homegrown anomaly, and the Book of Mormon was illogically conceived. There is no way to verify it’s translation given the excuse it was “taken back up into heaven.” How that one man Joseph Smith could haul around solid gold tablets was hard for me to believe as well. I wonder if people think my belief in orthodox Christianity is equally outrageous. What commends itself to one mind, doesn’t to another.
Comment by: Mike Clawson
1That’s hilarious!
But in regards to his opening comments, I wonder… is tolerance the same as apathy? And isn’t active love better than mere tolerance?
Comment by: Mike Clawson
2I should also say that I actually enjoy it when Mormons (or anyone else who’s not literally “selling” something) comes to my door. It’s pretty rare these days anymore (at least where I live), so I figure anyone who cares enough about their cause to come door-to-door should be pretty interesting to talk to. I’ve had some great conversations with Mormons, environmentalists, politicians, local referendum promoters, etc.
Granted, Saturday morning is pretty rude, but if someone does come by, I say don’t get upset. Instead, have some fun with it. Blow their mind, freak them out, or just have a good conversation.
Comment by: Helen
3I’ve only ever had Jehovah’s Witnesses come to my door.
If I’m not busy during the week and have the energy, I’ve sometimes tried to engage them in conversation. However I wouldn’t want to talk to them at the weekend - for me that’s ‘family time’ and not time to spend talking with strangers at the door.
Comment by: NCxian
4I moved into my house about 10 years ago and I only recall one pair of Mormons. I noticed the guy flew to Salt Lake City from Australia. I wonder if Mormon evangelism is particularly big and aggravating in Australia?
We actually hosted a Mormon pro golfer on the Hooters tour in our home a few years ago. (That’s like single-A baseball–they make so little money they have to stay for free with local families to survive). Anyway, he never said a word about his religion. We found out after he left because our computer “history” showed visits to LDS cites. He didn’t even leave literature on the bedside table!
Comment by: David H
5I recently read an article about Prince (of Purple Rain) converting to Jehovah’s Witness and going door to door. However, what sparked the article — which I think was in a Minnesota newspaper — was that he had the bad taste to go knocking on a Sunday afternoon when the Vikes were on TV. One or two of the people interviewed said they might have been thrilled to have the star musician in their home if he wasn’t interfering with their football enjoyment.
I was raised to run off Mormons, JWs, Seventh Day Adventists and their ilk. However, in the last 10 years I have gained some admiration for their efforts. Sure they seem to pop in at really inconvenient times — but when would it be convenient? But more importantly, they are at least pursuing their convictions at some cost to themselves. How many people do they deal with like those seen in the video?
Comment by: DSan
6I am a Christian who believes the Bible is the word of God and our guideline to living. However, if I am wrong and there is no God then I wasted my life loving and helping people. I don’t force anyone to believe what I believe however I will share my faith with others in the hope that they will accept Jesus as their savior. Once again if I’m wrong then what will happen to me when I die? Nothing? I will just rot? Now you must consider if the Bible is right. What will happen to the athiest? The Bible makes it clear that he will spend eternity seperate from God. The Bible is talking about ETERNITY! Do not be wrong about what happens when you die.
Consider atheism for a moment…doesn’t it take an all knowing knowledge to say there isn’t a God? Do you know everything there is about the universe? Can you see you have been everywhere and not seen him? As a Christian I merely need to see evidence of him through His creation to know there is a God, but to say he doesn’t exist tells me you know everything.
Comment by: Helen
7Thanks for your comments DSan.
Please read the following, recently posted by an atheist in a comment on this blog:
Comment by: Karen
8DSan:
No way! I hope you don’t really believe that, DSan.
A life loving and helping people cannot help but have marvelous repercussions, whether there is a god or is not a god.
Loving and helping people makes your own life fulfilled and worthwhile. It means you spent your time here on earth in the best possible way.
Loving and helping others cannot help but enrich their lives, the lives of their families and friends and of everyone else that touches.
Do you see that the possibilities for good to come out of even a small act of kindness are just about limitless? There’s no way that that behavior is a “waste” of someone’s life - even if there’s no god, as we atheists speculate (note I said “speculate” as per the definition of weak atheist, above).
Comment by: Karen
9David H wrote:
The ones I feel sorry for are the JW kids whom I’ve seen all dressed up and walking along with adults (their parents or other relatives?) on Saturday mornings, making house calls.
No sleeping in Saturday mornings, then lazing around watching cartoons or playing sports?! That’s just sad. :-(
Comment by: DonnaV
10Helen!! You outdid yourself this time…way too funny…that’s great!!
Comment by: Pete Strobel
11DSan:
I am a Christian who believes the Bible is the word of God and our guideline to living. However, if I am wrong and there is no God then I wasted my life loving and helping people.
No way! I hope you don’t really believe that, DSan.
A life loving and helping people cannot help but have marvelous repercussions, whether there is a god or is not a god.
Just my responses to Karen and DSan:
I am a Christian and have been immersed in this identity for over 30 years. At times I have wondered what it would be like to NOT believe. But I do not remember ever not really trusting that there is God watching, loving, creating and sustaining His Creation (including me and you all). So I must hypothesize:
I would still love and care about others. It seems right. It feels right. It sounds right. It makes sense. Love perpetuates the species, it is the best, most constructive response to the Creation. It seems like it would be the way to “aid” Evolution (if that’s all there was.) But one of the reasons I DO believe in God is for all those some reasons: Why does LOVE seem, sound, feel and reason to be the best and most constructive response to friends and neighbors, and even to enemies? Evolution itself doesn’t account for it. There are plenty of examples of survival of the fittest, not survival of the most loving and generous. No, Love commends itself to me in my heart because there is One Who first loved me and empowers me to continue that love… That’s one reason I believe in God.
There are others.
Nonetheless, even if you don’t believe in God, DO keep LOVING. Perhaps God will become more clear to you…more apparent, less transparent…
Comment by: Pete Strobel
12Just my responses to Karen and DSan:
I am a Christian and have been immersed in this identity for over 30 years. At times I have wondered what it would be like to NOT believe. But I do not remember ever not really trusting that there is God watching, loving, creating and sustaining His Creation (including me and you all). So I must hypothesize:
I would still love and care about others. It seems right. It feels right. It sounds right. It makes sense. Love perpetuates the species, it is the best, most constructive response to the Creation. It seems like it would be the way to “aid” Evolution (if that’s all there was.) But one of the reasons I DO believe in God is for all those some reasons: Why does LOVE seem, sound, feel and reason to be the best and most constructive response to friends and neighbors, and even to enemies? Evolution itself doesn’t account for it. There are plenty of examples of survival of the fittest, not survival of the most loving and generous. No, Love commends itself to me in my heart because there is One Who first loved me and empowers me to continue that love… That’s one reason I believe in God.
There are others.
Nonetheless, even if you don’t believe in God, DO keep LOVING. Perhaps God will become more clear to you…more apparent, less transparent…
Comment by: JG
13On this definition of atheism.
In “A History of the Roman World 30BC to AD138″ by ET Salmon it is recorded (page 235) that Domitian’s cousin, Flavius Clemens was “charged with atheism, in other words with conversion to a foreign religion (probably Christianity)” and executed.
Have looked on internet which suggests he converted to Judiasm rather than Christianity. See:
http://users.drew.edu/ddoughty/Christianorigins/persecutions/domitian.html
Comment by: Helen
14Pete wrote:
On the other hand perhaps he will become less clear to you.
(I know from personal experience that that can happen)
Comment by: Karen
15Interesting, JG. I listened to this university course on religion and science earlier this year, and the prof made the point that there have been regular “atheist scares” throughout the centuries and most of them were not very valid. Kind of like the paranoid, “Communist-under-every-bed” mentality that we had in the US during the McCarthy era (1950s).
Actually, there were very, very few “out” atheists (no doubt there were people who doubted god’s existence privately) until about the 16th century. And even then it was - and to an extent still is - quite a taboo to be an atheist.
Comment by: Doreen
16I actually took the series of classes from Mormon elders when they stopped by my house while I was an undergrad. They had to change elders a few times because of my questions. I listened respectfully, read the Book of Mormon, and as I said, asked many questions.
At the end of the series, of course they ask if you’d like to come to an activity and if you’d like to become a Mormon. I told the elders that while I appreciated learning their beliefs, it wasn’t for me. They asked why and I said I did not agree with their subservient role for women.
They said they had MANY opportunities for women! There’s the quilting bee, the sewing circle….
:)
Comment by: Pete Strobel
17Years ago I lived in a city that was heavily Mormon populated. My best friends were Mormons, so naturally I had opportunities to talk with them, and when I was in high school I attended their seminary class meetings. After reading a few sections in the Book of Mormon, prayer, etc. I decided that Mormonism is simply an American homegrown anomaly, and the Book of Mormon was illogically conceived. There is no way to verify it’s translation given the excuse it was “taken back up into heaven.” How that one man Joseph Smith could haul around solid gold tablets was hard for me to believe as well. I wonder if people think my belief in orthodox Christianity is equally outrageous. What commends itself to one mind, doesn’t to another.