Posted by Helen on: 12.06.2006 /
In comment #10 on The Four Agreements, Bryan wrote:
When it comes to discerning truth, it is important to know what God’s Word says. When you are becoming discouraged by what you are hearing in church, it is important to know what God’s Word says. When it comes to wondering if God is really there and if he really cares, it is important to know what God’s Word says.
I recently came to somewhat of a “crisis of belief.” I know there are a lot of people out there who claim to be Christians, but don’t behave any differently than the world and appear to be more successful. There are a lot of “preachers” out there who claim to speak in Jesus’ name, but are only interested in taking money from gullible Christians. I know there are times when I really feel like I need God’s immediate guidance, but he remains silent.So I spent a little time with God, telling him about these things that were bothering me. What I came away with was a very strong understanding that it is critical to know what God’s Word says. The reality of God is not affected by how Christians choose to live their lives. He is not affected by false or misguided teachings. He is not affected by our time table.
God was, is, and will always be, God. And he has shown us who he is in his Word. He has told us who he is in his Word. He has given us, and preserved for us, his Word, so that no matter what we are going through, we can know who God is.
“Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you.” ~ James 4:8
This reminds me of Peter, whom Jesus allowed to walk out to him on the water. Peter did so as long as he kept his eyes on Jesus. But when he began to look around at the wind and the waves he became afraid and began sinking. In our own lives we can become discouraged and even lose faith in God when we look at everything going on around us (even in church). But if we are reading, meditating on, and memorizing God’s Word, we can know for ourselves that we can trust in God. And because of his Word and his Spirit we can discern whether the things we are being taught about him are on or off the mark.
By the way, Helen, both your statement of evangelical Christianity and Ruiz’ book lack one key component when it comes to change. That is the power of the Holy Spirit within a Christian to bring about change.
“Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace.” ~ Romans 8:5-6
Comment by: Helen
1Thanks for your comment, Bryan. It’s interesting to read how you came through your crisis of belief. I think I went through a similar stage to you at one point. When Christians disappointed me I sought comfort in believing that God was still all I had believed no matter how Christians behaved. And my thoughts about God were based on the Bible (so it seemed to me).
That didn’t work any more once I started to have major doubts about God and the Bible.
Yes - that probably reflects my own doubts about the reality of the Holy Spirit. I haven’t ruled out the possibility that the Holy Spirit is real and changes Christians, but I do have serious problems with that teaching.
I would have a lot easier time believing what I was taught about the Holy Spirit by conservative Christians if I could see a clearer demonstration that he is doing what I was taught he does. And doing it only for the Christians who believe in him.
When Christians disappointed you did it ever occur to you that this might be because the doctrine of the Holy Spirit is somehow incorrect? I’m just wondering.
I wouldn’t be surprised if your answer is ‘no’, since I didn’t question the doctrine myself until relatively recently. For years I accepted Christian failures as explained by Christians continuing to be tempted and still having a ’sin nature’. But one day I realized that the simpler easier explanation was that conservative Christians don’t in fact have some source of power no-one else has and that’s why they aren’t significantly better (based on my observation) than everyone else.
Comment by: JG
2A few thoughts:
1 As always, I’m not keen on labels. In my experience here in the UK, the group generally regarded as being evangelical is split between “conservative evangelicals” on the one hand and “charismatic evangelicals” on the other. It is the latter group that are generally regarded as emphasising the power of the Holy Spirit.
2 I respect and recognise Helen’s observation and exeprience. But what is being compared? I think I have commeneted previously on comparing the best examples of non believers with the worst examples of believers. And with any particular person, the question of whether we focus on their strengths or weaknesses. When we feel negative about someone or some group, we will naturally tend to focus on the negatives - I know I do and I’m sure I’m not alone in this.
3) What are we comparing? A similar issue arises in relation to school league tables. In the UK, league tables are produced showing the grades achieved by students of each school with each school being ranked according to such results. It implies the schools at the top of the leage are better than the ones at the bottom. But this is false. The results depend not only on the quality of the school but on the quality of the students attending that school. A school with generally less able students might be an excellent school which helps each student really excel to the best of their abilties whereas a school with generally more able students may have very poor teaching but because the students are generally quite able, they may still achieve considerably better results than the other school.
Sorry, that is quite long winded. My point is, what would the people who claim to be empowered by the Holy Spirit be like if they had not become Christians? That I think is the issue rather than how do they compare with non Christians. What about those that Jesus gave time to - the outcasts of society. They won’t have changed into model citizens overnight!
Comment by: JG
3On school league tables see for example:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3139
Comment by: Theresa Frasch
4I asked a similar question in my blog awhile back:
I still think it is a paradox as to how Christians claim to have God inside of them and yet still act as sinners. If that is okay because “we are human beings then what is the difference between the believer and the unbeliever?
Comment by: benjamin ady
5JG,
I realize this is a bit off subject, but when I saw your comparison to schools, I immediatley thought “duh, follow the money”. And it seems the article you link bears this out–
That is, isn’t the differenc in school performance mostly about the socio-economic status of the students and their families?
Are you saying that some people are just complete loser ######### whether or not they are Christians, whereas other people are excellent brilliant people, again whether or not they are Christians? That makes sense to me, and it seems to bear out Helen’s argument about the “holy spirit” not making any difference whatsoever (unless we can separate the “holy spirit” from “being a Christian”, which isn’t really allowable, as I understand the doctrine)
Comment by: JG
6Benjamin,
Thanks for your comments. A highly political issue - are poorer people less bright or is it merely that they don’t have the same access to good education that better off people have?
This is far too simplistic and crude but if we said you could expect to see on average say a 20% improvement in peoples’ character within say 5 years of them “becoming” a Christian (another loaded phrase) then what I am saying is that 20% improvement doesn’t necessarily make them better than other non Christians, it depends what their starting point was.
But I’m not sure on what basis we can compare people anyway. What yardstick do we use? We all our strengths and weaknesses. Some people do great charity work but their personal relationships are a disaster area. Some people may be great at helping other people - but at the expense of their immediate family. Some people may invest most of their energy in their children. How do we compare?
And then there is the question of profile. I wouldn’t be too impressed with someone who goes around telling everyone about all the good deeds they perform. It is the quiet, behind the scenes activity that impresses me most. The small acts of kindness by people the world regards as insignificant, people who have little but offer all that they do have.
Whereas we only tend to be aware of high profile people. And it is the high profile people who tend to make the news for all the wrong reasons eg Ted Haggard.
Returning specifically to the original theme, some people who have a dramatic “conversion” experience do change quite radically.
Comment by: JG
7I know little about this person, have not read his book and merely came across him by chance when looking on the internet but the following links relate to someone who talks about God having change dhis life. The verger at Sheffield Cathedral says:
http://www.geocities.com/roncathcook/ronsbook.html
The notes on his book read:
http://www.christianbits.co.uk/product.php?id=1845490436
Comment by: Helen
8JG wrote:
JG, I don’t doubt that.
But I do wonder whether that’s because the Holy Spirit is real and powerful, or because of other factors which are part of conversion such as - it gives a person hope to believe God loves them; it gives them meaning and purpose; it might lead to them joining a supportive community, etc.
Before I could be confident that there is significant change solely attributable to the Holy Spirit I’d have to see some change that only happens to Christians; or I’d have to have a way of demonstrating that there has been significant transformation which can’t be explained by other factors and therefore must be attributable to the Holy Spirit.
And if you think that would be impossible for me to ever see, well - that’s exactly why I question the existence of the Holy Spirit.
Comment by: Julie Marie
9I’m thinking that God isn’t too hung up on what we call ourselves and his spirit can empower whomever he chooses.
I think. But what do I know. I’m just trying to muddle through as best I can without making a mess of things.
Comment by: JG
10Helen,
Thanks for your comments.
“significant change solely attributable to the Holy Spirit” - this has got me thinking. I’m not sure this is how I understand the Holy Spirit works. I believe the Holy Spirit always works through people. Therefore they will always be a question of how much is down to the Holy Spirit and how much is down to the individual(s) concerned. And yes, this does mean that people can say it is all down to individuals and that the Holy Spirit does not exist.
But for me, I find it too difficult to put all I have experienced down to coincidence and human imagaination.
Comment by: Karen
11Theresa:
This is one of those questions that was a “deal breaker” for me and religion, and you phrase it very succinctly, Theresa. Thank you.
I recognize that Christianity teaches we’re only human, we’re all sinners, none are perfect, etc. But it also teaches that if we believe in Jesus and we’re saved, one of the benefits is that we get divine guidance in our lives, provided directly by the presence of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.
But if that’s true, shouldn’t there be some discernable difference between people who have the Holy Spirit guiding them and those who don’t? I wouldn’t expect every spirit-filled Christian to live an exemplary life, never tell a lie and never have B.O. (for instance) but it seems there should be something we could measure as a result.
When this came up on the DB, Siamang suggested a great analogy: College education. So, every college-educated person isn’t fabulously successful, and some people who only attended high school ARE fabulously successful: But in general, looking at a large sample of people, we can measure certain “success factors” (income, job security, job satisfaction and so forth) and see that on the whole, there is a positive correlation between success in life and getting a college education.
Why isn’t there something like that we can measure between people who have the Holy Spirit and people who don’t? If there’s no difference between the two groups, what’s the advantage to living as a Christian here on earth (not counting getting a reward in the afterlife)?
Comment by: Doreen
12JG asked
That’s a fascinating question. I would think that there are not a lot of people who believe in the HS but are not Christians. I was one for quite a while. I don’t think I’m a whole lot different than I was prior to accepting Christ, except for knowing now that I am loved and no one can take that away from me.
Comment by: JG
13Okay, let us look at murder. In the UK there were 859 murders in the year 2004/5.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder
6.3% of people go to church in the UK.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5349132.stm
Not everyone who attends church would claim to be a Christian but if we take 6.3% and accept the theory that being a Christian makes no difference to behaviour then we would expect to find 6.3% of the 859 murders to have been committed by Christians or at least by persons who regularly attend church. That works out at about 54. Given that news of Christians committing murder is the sort of thing that hits the headlines, if there were 54 murders by Christians, it shouldn’t be too difficult to find a reasonable number of examples on the internet.
In the US I understand church attendance levels are much higher so you would expect a much higher proportion of the 16,137 murders in the US to have been committed by Christians.
Comment by: Karen
14I don’t think murder rates are a good measure though, because they are so highly influenced by things (gun availability, local crime rates, cultural violence) other than religion. I’ve always heard the relatively low murder rate in the UK correlated to the scarcity of gun ownership there versus the U.S., for instance.
Certainly the very high murder rate in Colombia (an highly Catholic country) that you listed above reflects not the religiosity of that country’s inhabitants, but the violence surrounding the illegal drug trafficking there.
Here are a couple of stats about atheists similar to others I’ve read:
Comment by: Karen
15You know, I just had a (rare) flash of insight about this! The whole HHJJ or happy happy joy joy (tm Benjamin?) thing that got pushed on me in the evangelical church was all about showing non-Christians the power of the holy spirit in our lives.
So the idea was if we stayed in HHJJ mode no matter if we were depressed, angry, sad, just plain bitchy or whatever, that would show nonbelievers that we were different because we had the holy spirit! That was supposed to be the “measureable distinction” we’re talking about here.
I think the problem with it was that what happened was everyone went around with a frozen smile on and no one (or very few, in my experience) could admit that they were falling apart inside, because that might mean they weren’t manifesting the holy spirit. Or maybe, even, that they had denied him and were going to lose their salvation … the worst fate imaginable. Weird that I just figured out what that was all about.
Comment by: benjamin ady
16kewl–I can trademark that (HHJJ)?
JG–I love the way your mind works–you’re very creative–I love the idea of comparing percentages of christians among the general populous to the percentage of christians among murderers.
I think your hypothesis is very difficult to operationalize, but I still think it is *so* creative. I’m going to tuck it away for my next psychology research project.
Comment by: David H
17The other factor here is that just because someone says they are a Christian doesn’t make it so. If I claimed I had a college degree, most reputable employers would check to make sure that is true. The problem with Christianity and, to an even greater degree, the annointing of the spirit, is there is no sheepskin. As for why someone receiving divine guidance would do bad things, I can only say that I ignored perfectly sound advice from my parents. Sure this is supposed to be something supernatural, but I don’t think many get some bolt of lightning or voice from the blue experience. They are forced to listen for the still small voice and there are two problems with that:
1) that seems so UN-God
2) American Christianity does a very poor job of emphasizing the importance of listening. Prayer is taught as largely a one-way street — I ask, you (God) deliver.
Finally, the HHJJ aspects of Christianity can be a real hurdle to true experience of the spiritual. The pretense has to override everything or else it may collapse. I wasn’t surprised to see that the divorce rate for atheists and agnostics is lower than that for those who claim to be Christians because the skeptics are probably more pragmatic about what it takes to make a relationship work while the HHJJ crowd may often figure that God will just work it all out.
Comment by: David H
18I think this is a misconception that we have discussed previously. Who says pastors are supposed to be the best examples of Christians? Getting an education, having practical experience and spending more time on something should make one better at something than others who have the same basic abilities. But I could spend all day every day playing basketball (which I did during my youth) and that still wouldn’t enable me to hang with Shaq when it comes to hoops.
What shows the work of the Holy Spirit shouldn’t be who you are or what you say has happened to you, it should be what you do. It isn’t the tree — which can be dead or sick — it is the fruit.
Let me qualify by saying that the fruit isn’t always visible to someone else. Christianity seems pretty clear that the work of the spirit can be almost invisible to many and that human will can impede that work. But I think the American varient of Christianity (perhaps all of the Western varients) have over-emphasized the talk and the show about the spirit while under-emphasizing some of the more difficult aspects (like self-denial). Maybe that is why so much of the fruit of modern Christianity smells rotten.
Comment by: Julie Marie
19That sounds right Karen.
Comment by: JG
20I wholly agree such an approach is completely wrong and mistaken - and can be quite (very) damaging.
I have encountered such an approach amongst some churches/Christians but don’t believe it is common place, at least, not here in the UK. When I do encounter it I challenge it.
For me, being a Christian and being empowered by the Holy Spirit means having freedom to be real, quite the opposite of pretending to be something you are not.
Leaders who inspire me are ones who share their weaknesses, their struggles not those who act as if they have everything sussed. Not so much struggles over whether or not they believe but rather struggles as to living.
Comment by: Julie Marie
21What I have encountered is that folks are willling to share their struggles but continue to profess HHJJ (or at least feel like they are crummy christians if they can’t manifest it) rather than honestly say YES this is hard, so hard I can’t see my way through it except one hour at a time…
It makes me sad, this imo, missaplication of Pauls singing in prison.
Comment by: Bryan
22David H, I strongly agree with your perspective (see Comments 17 & 18).
Throughout the Scripture we are told to seek God, to search for him.
“But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” ~Dueteronomy 4:29
“As the deer pants for streams of water, so my soul pants for you, O God.” ~Psalm 42 (this psalm, btw, is not a HHJJ psalm - anything that is forced or fake is not the work of the Holy Spirit, as he is referred to as the “Spirit of truth” in John chapters 14, 15 & 16)
“Seek the Lord while he may be found.” ~Isaiah 55:6
“Seek and you will find . . . for everyone . . . who seeks, finds.” ~Jesus in Matthew 6:7-8
“God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him.” ~Acts 17:27
“Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.” ~Hebrews 11:6
The work of the Holy Spirit in a true Christian’s life is a process. We have to continually seek after God. And being human beings with a free will, we can choose to follow God or we can choose to ignore him.
It’s also true that the American church (in general) has a long way to go in understanding true seeking after God. We are more familiar with the type of praying that involves us asking God for things. True prayer involves listening. This requires disciplines that we are largely unfamiliar with, like meditation, fasting, being still, crying out. All these things are talked about in God’s Word. Unfortunately, we live such fast-paced, schedule-packed lives, that we don’t take the time to truly seek God with all of our heart and with all of our soul.
This is not a failure of the Holy Spirit, or a proof that he does not exist. This is a failure on our parts as Christians to truly discipline ourselves in our spiritual lives. Another thing to realize is that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one.
Comment by: Helen
23Bryan wrote:
I tried that but I couldn’t be sure I wasn’t just listening to myself.
I didn’t want to make the mistake of confusing my own responses with God so I stopped listening, because it was too confusing.
Comment by: Pete Strobel
24Helen:
You have some good points. Let me reflect on some things that may very well lead to NO CONCLUSIONS that are intellectually satisfying.
1) In my understanding of the way God works, there are few if any occasions in which the Holy Spirit works solely my Himself. God works through people: it’s part of the plan. God created us to be community. Our Community: Common Unity, is possible through the Holy Spirit, but it isn’t effected in order to keep us separate, and individualistic entities out of touch with each other. So, any change that one could attribute to the Holy Spirit’s presence would not be evident outside of bringing people together: therefore, a supportive fellowship group might very well be the vehicle of that person’s improving character. Do you attribute it to a group of understanding, encouraging supportive people, or do we attribute it to the Holy Spirit that enables those people to BE understanding and supportive? Sigh. It’s a matter of faith, I guess. You either trust that God is behind it, or you don’t. I’ve chosen (whether foolishly or not) to believe that God is behind the transformation in people’s lives,because it appears so to me in my life.
2) At one time I was unsure of myself, insecure, unconfident: negative self-image, self-centered. After a conversion experience in my youth, that changed rather dramatically, and not in a way that made me arrogantly outgoing. It was a helpful thing for myself and others around me. Currently: I do still struggle with some temptations, but the reality is: I could have given in to a whole host of temptations by now, that many people DO give in to. Make no mistake: They are profoundly powerful and real temptations: Yet out of LOVE, I turn aware for just gratifying myself with selfish ambitions, harsh words, frightfully inappropriate actions, etc. and I attribute that LOVE to God, not to my inherent niceness or good will.
Now some people might just assert: you are kind, loving, a good father and a just teacher that would sacrifice much for the good of your students and family just because you inherited some socially appropriate genes, and you were raised in a good family, but that’s all. I would agree until the “that’s all” part. I do think there is more: and the Holy Spirit is involved. Proof? Alas: that just is a matter of trusting it is so, or not.
Comment by: Pete Strobel
25Karen wrote:
I understand what you mean. I think it was unfortunate for you, and remains unfortunate for many that that is what was meant by a changed life: Unending, unfailing Happy Happy, Joy Joy. In other words: an EMOTION. It is a great travesty of the Church that Emotional Highs are equated with the Holy Spirit.
I believe that the presence of the Holy Spirit is more apparent in a person’s actions than how they feel. Does a person love (that is DO what is best for the other person) regardless of how they feel about that person at any one time? Love is a decision and action directed to a person’s benefit and health: it is not a happy feeling or warm fuzzy. Love should be the end result of the presence of the Holy Spirit in anyone’s life.
The question for me is not: Is the Holy Spirit for real since virtually every Christian is unloving at times. The question is: Is any given person more loving now than they would have been then (before they were “converted”, or made some kind of profession of faith). It’s more a comparison within a person, than between persons.
BICBW