Book discussion with Scot McKnight

Posted by Helen on: 12.13.2006 /

As planned, I went to this Monday evening. I enjoyed it very much: the discussion was interesting and I got to meet and be with some neat people.

I was aware that this was the monthly meeting of up/rooted, an emergent-friendly local group. In view of that, I wasn’t sure what to expect. I didn’t know if there would be other up/rooted meeting activities as well as the book discussion.

I got there a few minutes after it was scheduled to begin. People were standing in small groups chatting and there were snacks and drinks out.

Mike Clawson greeted me and introduced me to Julie, his wife, who I was pleased to meet. I’d met Mike at the Revolution Conference but Julie couldn’t come. Mike is pastor of Via Christus and is one of the leaders of up/rooted. He organized this meeting.

I was pleased to see Benjamin Ady there when I walked in. It was a nice surprise to hear earlier in the day that he happened to be in town on business and might be able to come!

Mike told me that the turnout was about twice as big as usual for an up/rooted meeting. I’m guessing some people came especially to hear Scot McKnight. The location was helpful for me too — this particular meeting was closer to me than usual.

Fred, one of the co-pastors of the host church, made me coffee on the church expresso machine. Fred and his wife (who unfortunately wasn’t there because she was sick) became pastors there about six years ago and the church was not doing well. Their denomination gave them a free mandate to change things and money to do it with and they took the church in a new direction. It has about three times as many members as when they came. One neat thing they do is a “pulpit exchange’ with a local Catholic priest. He sometimes preaches at their church and vice-versa.

I met a neat lady, Nanette, who founded and pastors an emergent church in Chicago. That was the first time I’d met a female pastor who pastors by herself rather than being in a husband and wife co-pastor situation. Her church meets in an art gallery — that was interesting too; that’s the third time recently I’ve come across an emergent church with strong art connections.

I met Scot McKnight and John Armstrong, who were talking to each other and Scot’s wife Kris. I’ve e-mailed John Armstrong occasionally and he’s been very kind to me. I found out recently that Mike Clawson knows him. I’m very impressed that John evidently doesn’t let theological differences get in the way of listening to other Christians and taking what they say seriously.

I’m guessing that John was the most conservative Christian there and I was the least (as it were - the closest I come these days to calling myself a ‘Christian’ is ‘very non-traditional follower of Jesus’). I assume most people there would self-identify as emergent Christians. A number of them at least were pastors or in seminary or full-time Christian ministry — I’m not sure how many other “lay’ people were there besides me and Benjamin.

After a while Mike asked people to go into the sanctuary so we could begin the meeting. There were small tables set up at the back where we sat, rather than using the front of the sanctuary and the pews. I sat next to Benjamin. Scot McKnight sat on a stool at the front.

Mike went straight into introducing Scot. Scot spoke for a few minutes then took several questions. I wasn’t sure if “discussion’ really meant “lecture’ so I was glad the meeting was structured with lots of time for questions.

The book discussion was about Scot’s book The Real Mary. The purpose of the book is to encourage protestants to consider what they can learn from Mary. Scot feels she has been inappropriately underemphasized by Protestants, which is probably because they don’t want to overemphasize her as they believe Catholics do.

I thought Scot’s section in the book about what Catholics believe about Mary was very carefully and sensitively written — more so than any other protestant comments I’ve read about their Marian theology, in fact. Someone asked Scot how Catholics have reacted to the book and he said they’ve said it’s very fair about their theology. I was glad to hear that they’ve appreciated the efforts he’s made not to misrepresent them.

The discussion kept returning to Mary’s song, the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55):

46And Mary said:
“My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
50His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers.”

Scot pointed out how subversive and dangerous some of the ideas in this song are. It was dangerous to talk about God bringing down rulers when Herod was king. Scot is amazed how little emphasis the Magnificat has been given throughout church history when people have considered what Mary was like. The Magnificat shows us, he said, that Mary was a woman “with fire in her eyes”. Evidently she was not the emotionless icon shown in so much Christian art.

I learned that Mary wears two robes of particular colors in the Christian art of the Orthodox Church and only the inner robe in Roman Catholic Christian art. Now where else would I have learned that? ;-)

I asked Scot, what happens to a woman with fire in her eyes in an evangelical church today? He didn’t exactly go there but he did talk about how he is about to teach about women in ministry. He said he’s going to assign his students to see what women actually did in the Bible. He said his students will find out that there’s virtually nothing they didn’t do. He clearly does not uphold traditional limits on women in ministry.

Scot pointed out that Protestant leaders such as Calvin, Luther and Wesley actually agreed with some of the Roman Catholic doctrine about Mary which isn’t explicitly spelled out in the Bible. Someone asked when protestants started to separate themselves more decisively from Catholic Marian theology. He wasn’t sure except that it was relatively recent — not more than 150 years ago.

Mike Clawson said it’s interesting to compare Mary’s journey with his. Mary was confronted with the truth of who Jesus was when he grew up, which meant adjusting her own ideas about him. Mike said that parallels his own journey with Jesus.

There was some discussion of the Catholic doctrine that Mary chose to be a virgin and how this could be reconciled with passages mentioning Jesus’ brothers and sisters. Scot pointed out that celibacy gave women power over their lives and so that belief actually made Mary a more powerful woman. Some Catholics have argued that the “brothers and sisters’ are actually Jesus’ cousins and some people have thought maybe Joseph had children already when he married Mary (because he was a widower rather than a man who had never been married).

I’m sure I’ve forgotten some of the interesting comments and remarks made during the discussion. Maybe someone else will mention them on their blog.

When it was time to end the meeting Mike closed it by asking everyone to say the Lord’s prayer together. I didn’t say it since I don’t pray. I suppose it’s selfish of me to feel this way but I was glad that was the only prayer or worship in the meeting because it made it more comfortable for me.

After the meeting I got in line behind someone asking Scot to sign their book. He got out a very pretty fountain pen to do it with, which I commented on — and was surprised to see he mentioned that on his blog yesterday!

I talked to Fred a bit before I left about not going to church. He was friendly but it was not an easy conversation for me because I didn’t know how to explain how much church services really really don’t work for me. I still feel very uncomfortable saying just how far away I am from Christian belief at this point in my life to Christians. I feel awkward about being direct because I’m afraid I’ll sound arrogant and be misconstrued. So then I fail to explain why I am so averse to trying an emergent-friendly church like Fred’s. Oh well. Maybe one day I’ll figure out how to explain myself and come across as I’d like to. Or maybe it’s just too personal a topic for that ever to be easy.

Anyway, there’s much more in The Real Mary than I’ve mentioned here. I recommend it if you’re interested in exploring who Mary was and what Christians (and maybe other people too) can learn from her example.

Edited to add: comments on other blogs about the meeting:

• John Armstrong’s comments
• Scot McKnight’s comments
• Mike Clawson’s comments

---

Semi-Related Posts

• Book discussion tonight
• A Community Called Atonement
• Scot McKnight responds to an atheist agnostic
• New network with Scot McKnight, Dan Kimball and others
• Rose Madrid-Swetman featured on Jesus Creed
• Barack Obama’s inauguration
• The art of conversation

---

Copyright 2010 Off The Map | Terms of Service | Contact Webmaster | Powered by Wordpress | Admin