Posted by Eliza on: 01.11.2007 /
In counterpoint to the question about what Off the Map’s mission is (or should be), I’d like to ask whether (and how) you have been affected by Off the Map. I know I have been. (I’ll describe how later, in a response to this topic.)
If you’re comfortable doing so, please share any changes you’ve noticed in what you’re thinking…doing…believing…bringing to fruition…because of OTM.
This could be due to contact with Off the Map; its mission; Jim’s interviews; Hemant; Helen; the blogs; conversation; the Revolution conference; or anything else. Changes might be positive, negative, neutral, or still-waiting-to-see.
And, to be clear…whatever you’ve experienced is valid, even if it doesn’t match OTM’s mission statement!
Thank you!
Comment by: Jim Henderson
1 01/11/07 7:08 AM | Comment Link |I’ll start :-)
OTM has provided a way for me to meet people I would have otherwise not been able to connect with.Interesting and thoughtful people like Helen, Eliza and Siamang. Where would I have bumped into them had it not been for this blog?
How would I have met any of my atheistic colleagues like Hemant or Matt Casper?
What about people like Mike O? If it wern’t for Off The Map I would not have been very open to his thinking either.
I could go on - but you get the point
Comment by: Eliza
2 01/11/07 9:21 AM | Comment Link |Same for me, Jim - I’ve met people I wouldn’t otherwise have met, and gotten into conversations that otherwise I wouldn’t have had, in part because I would have shied away from them, & the OTM blogs have been a safe place to talk about subjects which can be sensitive. It’s been helpful to see people model how to talk about religion; I didn’t know how! And, of course, being exposed to a range of different points of view, reading how people think about things and what they believe.
In terms of what I’m noticing I’m doing differently as a result of reading and conversing at OTM:
- Taking an adult religious education course - would have been unthinkable before, for me. (OK, so I managed to pick one that isn’t necessarily the broadest exposure to Christian theology!)
- Being more aware of acting to MTWABP, instead of just thinking that it’s a good idea. Given time constraints, that mostly means donating more generously to charitable organizations that are working to help people in dire circumstances, around the world. Am also thinking about spending time toward the same goals, though that it’s harder to figure out how to do, practically speaking.
- Being more alert to people’s beliefs, and more aware of what it means to them, and how very much it means to them, particularly around end-of-life issues in patient care.
- Feeling more able to open and carry on conversations about religion with people, from family to friends, to patients. (Still have some work to do on this!)
- Feeling more knowledgeable about Christianity and the range of beliefs and practices it encompasses (still a ways to go on this!)
- Finding myself thinking at times, what would someone who calls him/herself a “Jesus-follower” do in this circumstance?
- Joining a Unitarian Universalist church that I hadn’t even known existed, just a mile from my house, and finding a wonderful group of people there, who talk about religion in varied ways that are within my comfort range and stretch my thinking in ways that don’t set off my skeptic-o-meter. Hoping/planning to get involved in some of their MTWABP projects.
- Feeling better able to respond to someone who expresses concern for my eternal soul, instead of just shrieking and running away ;)
Comment by: Stephan
3 01/11/07 9:24 AM | Comment Link |Like Jim, I have enjoyed the opportunity to meet and converse with people I otherwise would never have met. I have enjoyed the perspectives of a broad spectrum of people, both Christian and atheist who differ in opinion and lifestyle from me.
I waffle somewhat when it comes to how I handle it. Some days I feel like I am really communicating with people, and other days I get tired of being misunderstood and misrepresented. Those days I need to be back to the prayer of St. Francis (which is taped to my computer monitor) and to seek to understand rather than to be understood. The first line of that prayer is something we are focusing on in our home right now:
“Lord, make me an instrument of Your peace.”
I also find that I am spending way too much time here…
Comment by: Dave Woolsey
4 01/11/07 9:33 AM | Comment Link |OTM has provided an affirmation that it’s OK to continue an effort to be a bridge between my denomination and a culture that seems unknown to many church types. In recent years I have experienced an increasing personal tension between my work world and my “church” world where I have a bit of regional responsibility. Perhaps that journey has been a little lonely because I’m a used car dealer living in two very different worlds. (To some, like trying to mix croissants and fill dirt?) OTM has shown that all facets of society can interact with grace for a common good. I have referred many friends to the various web sites as a way to increase dialog with freinds in both of my worlds. The walls between those worlds seem to be coming down! Thanks for your help.
I attended the Revolution conference and thought it was great. Where else could Christ followers, atheists and used car dealers all feel at home?
Dave Woolsey
Comment by: Karen
5 01/11/07 10:11 AM | Comment Link |Since leaving religion behind, I’ve been very happy and fulfilled.
But one thing really frustrated me: Having personally experienced both sides in the divide, I continuously saw that each group (religious believers and non-religious believers) misunderstood the other in basic ways.
Somehow I knew that I could be useful trying to “fill the gap” - i.e., do some explaining from an insider perspective that I hoped would be helpful to both sides. OTM has given me the opportunity to try my hand at that, and I enjoy it very much. Thanks.
Comment by: HereandNow
6 01/11/07 10:29 AM | Comment Link |I’ve learned a lot from people like Eliza and Stephen in reading the dialogues. I’ve also been very impressed with the decency and grace with which people conduct themselves, even when we do misunderstand each other. A lot of people on this site have such a strong sense of justice and a desire to see justice made available for those who have little option to ensure it for themselves. That has been inspiring to me.
At times I have felt a little out of place here, and refrain from participating in conversations much because the dialogue seems so heavily weighted in the either Atheist or Christian (evangelical) camps. Because I am neither but used to be decidedly evangelical, I’m sometimes disappointed that perspectives that include less western concepts of God aren’t more frequently represented. Then again, if it’s important to me, maybe I should start articulating that perspective more (Benjamin, sorry to use the dreaded “should” word).
At any rate, I’m impressed with how well Christians and Atheists are getting along with each other on this web site and I’m impressed with the careful consideration of each others thoughts and feelings that almost always gets demonstrated here.
Comment by: Rachel
7 01/11/07 10:55 AM | Comment Link |And you do it well, Karen! I really appreciate you.
Comment by: Rachel
8 01/11/07 10:57 AM | Comment Link |Wow. How to begin? I first learned about OTM about a year and half ago when a friend emailed me and asked if I wanted to go with her to a conference in Seattle where Brian McLaren would be speaking. All I needed to hear was “Brian McLaren” and I was sold. The conference was amazing. I had been going through a crisis of faith for several years, trying to figure out how to continue as a follower of Jesus while rejecting the fundamentalist Christianity I had been raised in. At the conference, I experienced a faith that was both progressive and evangelical - in the sense of proclaiming good news.
I had the chance to talk to my hero Brian M in person and discovered a person who is incredibly humble, gentle and genuinely interested in others without any regard for status. I could write a whole essay about the 2005 conference but probably the one phrase that stuck with me the most was Jim’s now famous, “Do what’s doable. It’s all you’re really gonna do anyhow.” Instead of walking away from a conference with a a big load of guilt and a long list of resolutions, I felt inspired, encouraged and refreshed.
Comment by: Helen
9 01/11/07 2:50 PM | Comment Link |Can I just say “All of the above”? :-)
Like others have said, Off The Map has definitely helped me meet neat people, given me a safe place to talk and challenged me to be more intentional about MTWABP.
Basically what Off The Map has done for me is helped me feel more ok about being me. Which has encouraged me to get back in the game, and do the things I like and/or am good at, and believe that they are worth doing.
When I found Off The Map I was in ‘retreat mode’. I’d recently quit church and Bible study to extricate myself from situations where I lacked the energy and/or courage to be completely honest about the way my beliefs had changed.
I don’t regret that decision but it also meant I was sort of in ‘disengage, avoid, retreat’ mode.
Off The Map has helped me get back to engaging and to acting on my convictions, because maybe they do count after all.
It helped me have the courage to be honest where it’s not easy to be honest by giving me a place where it WAS easy.
It’s helped me think “Maybe I am still a follower of Jesus after all” which wouldn’t necessarily have occurred to me a year ago when I was in retreat’ mode.
In Off The Map I found a team where I could think “Hmmm…maybe I actually BELONG on this” instead of “Let’s see if I can make myself fit”.
Unfortunately there is only so much Off The Map can do towards making me a better person ;-). There is still plenty to do. But I appreciate what it has done for me!
Comment by: Eliza
10 01/11/07 3:31 PM | Comment Link |Great comments!
Stephan wrote:
Stephan, it does seem that you get treated like a punching bag at times on the Discussion Board. I’m sorry that happens, and glad you’ve stuck it out. (I hope there’s less need for peacemaking at home, except perhaps between the kids!)
Me too! But it’s hard to cut back…
Dave Woolsey wrote:
There was that welcoming feel…and that big parking lot out in front of the church, to help you feel like you were at work! ;-)
Comment by: Helen
11 01/11/07 4:17 PM | Comment Link |That sure was a huge parking lot!
Comment by: Rachel
12 01/11/07 5:17 PM | Comment Link |Part Two: After attending the ‘05 conference, I followed a link in the OTM e-newsletter to Conversation at the Edge and was instantly hooked. Helen made me feel very welcome and I appreciated the positive, respectful atmosphere. I had posted on some message boards years ago but quit because the tone was so nasty and combative. But on CatE, people with very divergent world views conversed in a respectful and thoughtful manner. Here are some things I have learned since posting on CatE and other OTM blogs:
- I’ve come to recognize the marginalization that atheists face in our society, how they are in a small minority and face a lot of negative stereotyping, how tired they get of people trying to proselytize them with the same old lines they’ve heard before, that atheists are not wowed and impressed by the latest Josh McDowell apologetic
- I’ve learned that many (most?) atheists/agnostics have seriously considered the existence of God, often they wanted to believe or did for a time but did not find the evidence, that many atheists were once religious people and left their faith behind, often after struggling with some of the same issues I’m struggling with (a fact I find both comforting and disconcerting)
- I’ve learned that the lines are not so clear between who is a Christian and who is an atheist, between religious belief and non belief, that most people are in process and that we change a lot at different points on our journey, I’ve learned to be less concerned with trying to identify people by world view categories and to just listen and learn and share with them as people
- I’ve learned how interesting and refreshing it is to interact with a diverse group of people, I think we get kind of stagnant when we stay in our own little world, only interacting with one or a few different groups of people
- One goal I have for my future interactions both on the OTM blogs and IRL is to ask more questions to really understand people’s viewpoints and their journey, rather than just assume or categorize, one of the posters over on ebay Atheist pointed out how the media love to put people in opposing groups and inflame hostilities between them to generate controversy, I think that what we are doing here is really countercultural
Comment by: Karen
13 01/11/07 5:34 PM | Comment Link |Awww … that’s so nice of you! Thanks, sweetie. :-)
That sounds lovely. I remember one of the major downsides of the many Christian conferences, retreats and workshops I once attended was coming home with that big load of guilt about everything I should be doing and how quickly I’d fail to achieve it all.
Comment by: Rachel
14 01/11/07 7:14 PM | Comment Link |And in my experience, the conferences and retreats held specifically for women were the worst. I quit going to all that stuff years ago.
But I’m actually going to be attending a conference for women later this month and I’m really looking forward to it. The conference is called Convergence and it is sponsored by NW Emerging Women Leaders.
My best friend Karlene is one of the leaders who is organizing the gathering. I’m so proud of her! She is in seminary at George Fox University and she just got an essay published in the online magazine Next Wave.
Comment by: Helen
15 01/11/07 7:21 PM | Comment Link |Rachel, that conference sounds like fun. I’ve read about it on at least one other blog. I hope you have a great time there!
Comment by: Rachel
16 01/11/07 8:42 PM | Comment Link |Thanks! I’ll give you guys a report when I get back.
Comment by: Gregg Lamm
17 01/11/07 10:28 PM | Comment Link |Friends,
I too am grateful to have found this port of call whose docks invite all kinds of ships, rowboats, kayaks, canoes and dinghies to moor. I have a sneaky feeling that even dog-paddlers are welcome. To quote Delmar O’Donnell in the Coen Brothers’ 2000 film Oh Brother, Where Art Thou? , “C’mon in boys, the water is fine.”
Distances between people are more often than not defined and maintained by what we think than by who we really are. OTM has invited me to be myself, to express myself, and to explore my own thoughts — while inviting others to do the same thing.
Following the lead of others I’ve met here, I’ve tried to vulnerably share what I think — and at times even crossed the line to express what I am coming to believe. And in doing so I have a feeling that I’ve come the closest I’ll ever be to knowing what it must feel like to show up at a nudist colony. A shivering mixture of blushing and staring, all wrapped up in the great “revelation of equalization” that actually, none of us are all that different from each other — regardless of what we believe.
Thanks for your putting up with my putting in at the OTM dock. Godspeed and good night.
read.think.pray.live.
Gregg Lamm
http://www.stayingthecourse.blogspot.com
%+%+%+%+%+%+%+%+%+%
My bride Teresa’s kidney stone surgery went well last week. She is tired and still quite sore, but early tomorrow morning she goes into the hospital again — this time for an oncology surgeon to remove the parathyroid glands in her neck. Thanks again for your prayers and good thoughts for her. Besides being introduced to the person and work of Jesus Christ, she’s hands-down the best thing that ever happened to me. Godspeed.
Comment by: Helen
18 01/12/07 5:30 AM | Comment Link |Gregg, thanks for joining the conversation here. Yes, dog-paddlers are welcome here too ;-)
Please let us know how everything goes with Teresa’s second surgery.
Comment by: Stephan
19 01/12/07 7:32 AM | Comment Link |In the vein of spending too much time, I find the conversations here and on the message board to be kind of like a good book. I always want to pick it up and find out what happens next. I can’t even say I always like it, but I’m hooked.
Comment by: Pam Hogeweide
20 01/12/07 10:34 AM | Comment Link |Rachel, I was all set to go, but recently had to withdraw my registration. Life, time, I wish there were two of me. Have a fabulous time with all those fabulous women. Look for my good friend Erin (with pink hair) and get to know her. She came to the Rev conf with me in Nov.
How has OTM affected me? My confidence as a writer has deepened as Jim and others around here affirm me in that. Yet more importantly, like everyone else around here, it is the people who have affected me the most. Getting to know other people who are very caring and very real about their doubts, skepticism and outright unbelief in God has helped me be a better listener.
OTM has also helped me become addicted to the internet. My house is always a wreck. My kids are failing their classes because I’m online instead of helping them with their studies. My husband is eating tv dinners every night because blog surfing has taken over my household management. But it’s worth the sacrifice. Ya know, there’s a fine line between passion and addiction. (LOL)
Comment by: Helen
21 01/12/07 12:59 PM | Comment Link |Pam, my house was already a wreck before I heard of OTM.
Comment by: Mike Clawson
22 01/12/07 2:05 PM | Comment Link |I’ve been hugely blessed and influenced by OTM. Hemant coming to our church was a lot of fun and helped draw us into this online community, so thanks to Jim and Hemant for that.
My interactions with all y’all on this blog and especially at the message boards has really helped me see the world through atheist eyes and be more sensitive to their concerns and point of view. I’ve also greatly enjoyed the intense but (usually) respectful debate over there. How can I come to refine and improve my own ideas unless I have someone to test them against.
The Revolution Conference was amazing, and I was fortunate to get a little bit of a “behind the scenes” view of Off the Map after the conference hanging out with Jim and his circle of friends (especially Rich and Rose Swetman!) Being there and spending time with them inspired me to host a similar conference for the emerging church out here in the Midwest this coming summer (it’ll be in Chicago and the theme will be “Creating Missional Communities” or something like that). So that’s probably the most significant way that OTM has affected me this year.
I also have really appreciated Helen’s work with these blogs. Her gracious manner and ability to deal fairly with both Christian and atheist points of view has been an inspiration to me.
So anyway, thanks Jim and Helen and everyone for creating this “place” where relationships and transformation and inspiration can happen.
Comment by: Mike Clawson
23 01/12/07 2:20 PM | Comment Link |BTW Rachel, my wife Julie will be coming out for Convergence too. Keep an eye out for her. She’ll be the tall one missing her left hand. :)
Comment by: Helen
24 01/12/07 3:59 PM | Comment Link |Mike, I’m glad Julie can go too.
Comment by: Rachel
25 01/12/07 6:27 PM | Comment Link |Dang! We will miss you, Pam! I will watch for Erin. I think I remember her - was she at the bloggers’ dinner?
Comment by: Rachel
26 01/12/07 6:32 PM | Comment Link |Cool! I’ll look for her. Tell her I’m the short one who will have the ONE Campaign table.
Comment by: Doreen
27 01/16/07 1:35 PM | Comment Link |I’ve met so many really kewl people (and not just the Quakers, lol).
I sought & found a Christian denomination in which to seek ordination, something I don’t think would’ve happened if I had not attended an OTM event in Nov. 2005.
I’ve met a lot of people who don’t automagically condemn me to you-know-where because I’m gay.
OTM encouraged me to start my own blog.
poetcomic.blogspot.com
Comment by: Julie Marie
28 01/16/07 8:34 PM | Comment Link |My interactions on the OTM blogs have opened my eyes to the panorama of beliefs that good people hold, and I am grateful for that. Seeing the variation - and the good hearts behind conflicting views - allowed me a safe place to begin to explore what came to mind as I began to rethink many of the elements and assumptions of my religion. the people here are so unusually well read, compassionate, passionate, and they are able to express those feelings and beliefs that we as a society are told is not for polite converation, and exress them with eloquence,humor and consistency.
It gave me a group of people to talk about the real stuff knocking around in my head when I was leading a very isolated lifestyle. It kept me engaged with people I care about alot.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
29 01/18/07 12:04 AM | Comment Link |Hi all
I wanted to say thanks for your encouraging comments and insights. Our Board of Directors met last week to work on clarifying our mission and setting some strategic plans in place (dont worry we’ll never be that organized :-)
During the meeting I decided to show them the comments from this blog which seemed relevant for our meeting.
They were very moved. Eliza’s comments were very powerful in helping our board see the value of dialog with people who have little to no beliefs. One of her comments was ” I find myself wondering what a follower of Jesus would do in this situation”
As we read that we wondered if we would ever be able to get followers of Jesus to wonder that same thing about atheists?
You have all made a substantial contribution to off the maps mission simply by being real and telling us what you are really thinking. At the very least we can stop guessing what others think and perhaps talk about things that are real.
Our consultant told us that in his interviews with people who related to Off The Map three things were repeated
Off The Map provided people
A Place to Belong
Space to Think
A way to grow
Comment by: Helen
30 01/18/07 8:04 AM | Comment Link |Thanks Jim. It’s neat to hear you used these comments about the board meeting and what the response was.
Actually, I did wonder “What would an atheist do?” a few years ago. I set out to find out and I have a much better idea of the answer now than I had then.
The Christians who don’t wonder “What would an atheist do?” are the ones who most need to know the answer - imo.
Comment by: Eliza
31 01/18/07 11:55 AM | Comment Link |Jim, thanks, & I’m glad too that the comments here were useful in that meeting. I can’t claim that I’m here to support OTM’s mission, just have found it an interesting, thought-provoking, and vitriole-free place for discussion, glad that fits with what you want to accomplish, or at least what you’re willing to have happen in OTM’s “airspace”!
I’m finding “what would a Jesus-follower do?” to be a way to update “WWJD?” for the 21st century, for me. Otherwise, “WWJD?” leads to too many “does not compute” images, trying to imagine JC in modern America, which many people call a “Christian nation.”
The point of view of a formerly-Christian-atheist may be different in many situations than the POV of an unchurched-atheist, especially when the discussion has anything to do with theology, church practices, etc. Formerly-Christian atheists will “get” references and meaning that someone like me would miss without remedial instruction….