Posted by Helen on: 02.04.2007 /
I went to church for about twenty years. At church they often would talk about how to be sure you’re going to heaven. They wanted to make no-one was confused about this vitally important topic.
They taught it’s necessary to believe certain things and then pray a particular prayer. They said God will always answer the prayer if you mean it.
Someone summarized what you need to believe and the prayer into four Spiritual Laws:
These laws are all about me and fixing my problem. They remind me of commercials which assure me that my life will be so much better or easier if I buy what they are selling.
Lots of people don’t seem to know the Four Spiritual Laws. Or maybe they do and they just disagree with them. Most of them who believe in heaven seem to be hoping that if they are good people and are kind to others, that will get them there.
I found places in the Bible where it seems like Jesus agrees with them. One time Jesus said people who did the following things would go to heaven:
Jesus didn’t say anything about what they’d believed or whether they’d prayed any particular prayer.
Jesus also didn’t say how many of these things people had to do and how much. But, I don’t think Jesus would ask people to be kind to others if he wasn’t planning to be kind to them. So I think in his decisions about who did enough he will be kind.
Another time a man actually asked Jesus how to make sure he would go to heaven. First, Jesus said, do these things:
These are mostly from what Christians call “the ten commandments’. Jesus only mentioned the commandments about how to treat other people. He didn’t mention the ones about God or keeping the Sabbath holy. I don’t know why he left them out.
The man replied he’d already done what Jesus said. So then Jesus added, do one more thing: “sell everything you have, give the money to the poor, then come follow me”.
Jesus didn’t tell him he had to believe three things and then pray a prayer. What he did say was hard. I don’t think I would be willing to sell everything I have. I think Jesus will be kind when he decides if this man did enough.
Jesus’ way of getting to heaven makes sense to me. If I was in charge of heaven, I’d like to have people there who were kind to others, not people who just prayed a prayer. (If they did both that would be fine) I’d like to be on earth with those people as well.
It was confusing that my church said it was very wrong to think doing good things like being kind to people was how you get to heaven, yet Jesus said that.
I decided to quit church and hope Jesus was right.
Comment by: Rachel
1And according the text, that man was not willing to sell his possessions and he went away sadly.
But another man named Zaccheus, after an encounter with Jesus, announced that he would give his wealth to the poor. And Jesus responded, “Surely salvation has come to this home today.”
Comment by: Helen
2Rachel, that’s a great point about Zaccheus.
But I think the rich man who went away sad might have done what Jesus said. I don’t know why people think him being sad and going away means he didn’t do what Jesus said. It makes sense he went away - because Jesus had answered his question; and it makes sense he was sad because Jesus had asked him to do a hard thing. And that’s the last we hear of him so we don’t know if he did what Jesus asked or not.
Comment by: Rachel
3That’s a good point, Helen. Perhaps later he did choose to give up his wealth and follow Jesus.
Comment by: Little James Fernandez
4Hello, this is my first post on OTM. I have seen both sides of the Catholic and Protestant view of salvation in my life. I was born and raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools all my life. After college, I stopped going to church because it was boring and Catholicism never explained “why Jesus was important.” I was born again couple years after a series of supernatural events and coincidences where God led me back to church (God’s power)and then through His mercy in my life (Jesus forgives 100 percent of all sins past, present, & future) and His grace by giving the gift of salvation. I struggled for a year or so with what the definition of salvation is. Saved, saved from what? Saved from who? Jesus defines salvation at the end of the Lord’s prayer, Matthew 6:13 “Deliver us from the Evil one.” The evil one being Satan. We aren’t saved just to go to heaven. We get to go to heaven because we are saved (end result & gift from Jesus). Salvation is salvation from evil in this life–saved from Satan, sin, and death. Jesus’ death and resurrection conquered Satan, sin, and death, opening a doorway to heaven. John 10:10 says Satan came to Earth to steal, kill, and destroy peoples’ lives. Jesus came to bring life, and life more abundantly. Simply, the Bible is all about the greatest story in the history of the world. Every story has a hero (Jesus), and every story has a villian (Satan). The biggest lies that Satan tells is that he doesn’t exist and that death is the end of life. Watch the news on TV or read the newspaper, and all you see and read is bad news of Satan’s evil, destruction, and death in the world. Most of all, Satan doesn’t want people to know about Heaven so he blinds people to the truth. The good news is Jesus proved He was God by coming back from death on the cross & visiting with people on the earth (His power). No one in the history of the world has ever come back from the dead! I choose to follow Jesus (to be His disciple) because I know with 100 percent certainty when I die I will rise from the dead, go to Heaven, and receive the gift of immortality. May the peace of the Lord be with you!
Comment by: jim henderson
5Little James, could be so kind as to explain to us how you know with certainty that this is what will happen to you or did you mean to say you hope with certainty that this will happen?
Comment by: Andrew
6Hey Helen and Co.
Interesting and challenging post.
I think there is an important point that is being missed here - I’ll say it in one word and see if you get the significance of it! “Audience”.
:)
Comment by: SezMe
7Little James Fernandez wrote:
and five sentences later:
Oops. Not my idea of “conquer[ing].”
Comment by: SezMe
8I know, Andrew, I know! You want a large audience to be waiting with bated breath for your next post that will spread pearls of wisdom before the ignorant masses.
Comment by: ncxian
9An underlying premise of this way of thinking is that salvation is an event. . . a thing that happens to you in a moment, and ever after you can name the day and time that you were “saved”.
Although there are aspects of the four Spiritual Laws that most Christians would agree with, it requires a belief in a salvation “event” to want to make up the four Spiritual Laws and a prayer to go with them. This is an evangelical church thing, I think. Many other churches think of salvation as a process. For instance, I heard a Methodist minister drawing this distinction in a class about various denominations. He said that he would never say, as evangelicals often do, “I am sanctified”–he would say “I am being sanctified”.
My experience is that when you believe salvation is a process, you are more concerned with your behavior and how it relates to that process. So good behavior might be a sign of “growing in grace”, or growing in grace might cause you to act better. Either way, there is some incentive to pay attention to your behavior. If salvation is an event, then behavior is sort of taken out of the mix. Not that “salvation event” Christians don’t care about behavior, but that behavior has NOTHING to do with whether you are going to heaven or not, if you have sincerely “prayed the prayer” (or “walked the aisle” as the old-time religion lingo has it).
I don’t say this to dismiss the evangelical point of view on this. My community includes a number of traditional evangelicals whose faith perspectives I have a great deal of respect for. They are ethical people who draw their ethics from their faith. But they understand right behavior from other teachings of Jesus, not from anything to do with salvation.
Comment by: Donavan
10Helen, your article left me confused. If all people need to do to get into heaven is be kind, what significance did Jesus’ death have on the human race. What is the connection between Jesus’ death and the human race?
Comment by: Helen
11Andrew, originally the audience for Jesus was a crowd, even if he was talking with an individual.
Now it’s all Bible readers.
So…what should we conclude from that? ;-)
SizMe wrote:
SezMe, lol :) Isn’t that what all of us all want?
Comment by: Stephan
12Ooh, ooh, pick me! Pick me! I know!
What Andrew is getting at here is that you have to look at who the audience is when Jesus is speaking, and something about not generalizing what Jesus is saying when he is speaking to a very specific audience at that point.
I’m not sure I totally agree with his point, but, you know, I have this Bible degree and I suppose I should use it sometimes.
Comment by: Helen
13Donavan wrote:
Donovan you make it sound easy but how many of these things have you done in the last week?: “Gave food to a hungry person; Gave drink to a thirsty person; Invited a stranger in; Gave clothes to someone who needed them; Looked after a sick person; Visited someone in prison.”
And I’m not pointing fingers because my record isn’t so great on those.
As I understand it, there are many theories about the connection between Jesus’ death and the human race and about what significance his death had. I could go study them and guess which one is/ones are ‘correct’. But I don’t think that would make me any kinder. So I’m not convinced it would be worth my while doing that.
Comment by: Helen
14NCxian, as you mentioned, many conservative evangelicals are happy to talk about ’sanctification’ being a process, but distinguish ’salvation: the event’ from ’sanctification: the process’. I haven’t noticed Jesus doing that, which makes me wonder if it’s wise.
Comment by: Helen
15Little James Fernandez wrote:
Little James, with all due respect, how can you be certain it’s other people who are being blinded by Satan and not you?
Comment by: Helen
16Stephan wrote:
Jesus knew other people were listening when he talked to the rich man. When his disciples questioned him about it afterwards he didn’t say “Hey, you shouldn’t have been eavesdropping. That was a specific message just for him.” On the contrary, Jesus talked about what he said to that man as if it was based on principles which apply to all people with money.
Didn’t he?
Oh, perhaps I should have addressed my previous comment to Andrew, not you!
Go for it!
Comment by: Paul
17Helen, i like your thoughts, not least as they add an extra depth/dimension to what was an effective but still relatively reductionist approach to the kingdom of God - that seems to me the invitation that Jesus was issuing - not so much one of do ya want to go to heaven, more do you want to join/be part of my kingdom…
I think to that end doing good to people is the actual living out of God’s kingdom - it’s about for me the putting into practice the beliefs that say ok my life is not just about me and what i can take/get/do my life is about something bigger/harder which is loving and caring for this planet and its inhabitants.
Now the nub I find is that when i try and put into practice that sort of kingdom living i find that i quickly run out of the resource that is needed - i am just limited in my love and ultimately i am quite selfish and self interested and therefore any acts of goodness that i do are usually offset with equal amounts of crap born out of my own insecuriy, vanity, addictions etc.
It is I think the reason i decide to follow Jesus cos i realise that my own goodness is limited and the best chance i have of being able to love people, being able to break the cycle of self is to have a higher power that is actively interested in helping me - and actively requires me to admit my own limitiation, my own self centredness and say I need help - I need help from God and I need help from the people who follow God if i am gonna live out the values that God espouses/values and love/serve/give to the people in the communities that i inhabit…
Comment by: Bruce Lofland
18I believe that in this story, Jesus was telling the rich man to humble himself. He was rich by worldly standards but was poor by spiritual standards because he was too proud.
The central message of the gospels is that trying to earn your way into heaven is no longer needed. This was the case before Jesus came, but not after.
This, of course, does not mean that you shouldn’t try to do good for others. God still wants us to love each other.
Comment by: Helen
19Paul wrote:
Paul, I understand that you are saying this out of humility.
But I don’t like what it seems to imply - which is that people who don’t ask for God’s help can’t be as good as those who do.
If I looked around me and saw that people who ask for God’s help are noticeably more good, then I’d think, wow, I guess that really is the only way to attain a certain level of goodness.
But what I actually see is people being basically similar in how good they are, regardless of whether they are asking God to help them be good or not.
Why is that Paul? Can you explain it? Is it my eyesight - do I need to look harder? ;-)
Comment by: Helen
20Bruce, how do you know the rich man was proud? As I recall, he ran to Jesus and fell on his knees before him to ask his question. That seems like humility to me, not pride. It takes humility to ask people a question because it’s an admission you’re stuck and need help with the answer.
And when the man answered Jesus’ questions maybe he was just being honest.
If the man was proud why didn’t Jesus just say “Your problem is pride”? H owdoes “Give all your money away” imply “you’re proud” and how would someone giving all their money away fix their pride problem if that was the problem they had?
This isn’t just directed at you Bruce - it’s a general comment: one thing that fascinates me about the rich man story is how much people read into it. I wonder if it’s because they have to find a reason why Jesus isn’t really saying to ME give all MY money away. Because if we don’t read into it we are in danger of seeing that as the straightforward literal meaning of that passage.
Comment by: Dee
21Well okay here it goes . . .Dee’s first Blog . . . “Resistance is futile” . . .
I am an interim Pastor currently & my job is to get congregations to take a good hard look at themselves and point them toward a future . . .
Part of the too often heard complaint is about being Small and “Why don’t we have more people” . . . .Well there are a lot of reasons (music, style of worship, etc) But in my case, coming from the tradition of the United Church of Christ, I have often seen another reason and this commentary strike at the heart of it.
we are a strongly social justice oriented Denomination and for that reason we have always stayed small. as we have challanged people across the centuries on various topics we have alienated some who might be peosonally effected, (ie calling slave owners to give up their cheep labor)
People, unfortunately don’t want to go to church (Or be part of a faith) to be challanged or take a look at their life style. They want to hear why they are good (and going to heaven / part of the “in” crowd) and why others are bad. They want a church that encourages them to worship the secular gods of consumerism and prosperity. . .MUCH less work that what Jesus calls us to . . .
Jesus, through Helen here, is calling us out. . . to risk a little discomfort to relieve a lot of discomfort and level the playing feild. Not to focus on personal piety, but on loving your neighbor (Check it out, this is such a novel idea) as you yourself would want to be loved / treated . . .
How is that?
Giving food to a hungry person
Giving drink to a thirsty person
Inviting a stranger in
Giving clothes to someone who needs them
Looking after a sick person
Visiting someone in prison
Ahh geezz . . .can’t I just write a check and be done with it?
Nope Says Mr. Jesus . . .”get out there and live it! with every fiber of you being. . .
Helen . . .you go girl!
Comment by: jim henderson
22Dee - how long have you been resisting the urge to blog here?
Helen is simply making the obvious issues apparent that (IMO) fairminded readers have sruggled to understand for centuries. No one will chaneg their mind as a result of this conversation but some of us might learn something new
Comment by: Helen
23Thanks Dee - I’m glad you quit resisting the urge to blog!
Comment by: dee
24Since the meeting in Seattle last Fall. . . It’s a time thing and Ass you can see, I tend to get longish and would like to make my thoughts more coherant. . .
Comment by: dee
25Annnnnnd. . ‘As” you can see i need to slow down and check my spelling!
Comment by: Paul
26Helen you wrote:
i agree with you helen - i think everyone has a certain amount of goodness in them - christian or not.
My point was made out of a realisation that if i want to live a life that is generous, gracious, commited, loving on a consistant basis over the long haul rather than the occassional random acts then I think admitting my own limitations and asking for help is the way forward for me.
In my life I have found that the changes that have helped me be a less selfish person and more giving person have been as a result of God healing me and helping me grow in my capacity to love etc…
My hope is that people who are on a humble honest journey with God over time find that they become more loving, kinder, gentler, more patient etc but i realise sadly that this is not always the case, even with me…
Comment by: Bruce Lofland
27In the book of Mark he is on his knees, but in Matthew and Luke he is not. I did not recall that detail. Nevertheless, I still maintain that it the man’s problem was pride in his good works because of Jesus’ reply to him: “And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.”
I believe the money was a symbol of his pride in his good works. He had just said that he had kept all the commandments since he was a boy. I see that as him presenting his spiritual resume. I guess when I read this story I don’t see a desparate man seeking a way into heaven, but a pompous man showing off for people.
Maybe it is just the way I see people based on my experience that I view the rich man that way. People often see many stories in the Bible different ways based on their backgrounds. I don’t think that this story is unique that way.
Comment by: Helen
28Thanks Paul. I’m glad you found the healing you needed.
Bruce wrote;
Great point, Bruce - thanks.
Comment by: ncxian
29Just to clarify, what I was trying to say was that some Christians believe that salvation is a one-time event–one minute you are not right with God, and the next minute you right with God. Other Christians believe that salvation is a process that takes place over time–a Christian spends his/her life getting right with God. The former would say, “I am sanctified”, the latter would say “I am being sanctified”. And actually, I don’t think it is a conservative/liberal split, I think it is an evangelical/non-evangelical split (which is considerably different in my mind).
Anyway, I don’t think I am willing to say that one position is wiser than the other. I was trying to point out, though, that your example is largely a discussion of the position of Christians who believe in a salvation event (which must have been the kind of church you were once active in). I am of that opinion because I am thinking that the process-salvation position naturally leads a person to be aware how their behaviors are connected to their salvation. “How does my behavior today exemplify my on-going growth toward God?” Although in theory most Christians believe that one is saved by faith not works, in practice the event-salvation christians insist on a firmer separation, I think, between their salvation and their behavior. Some event-salvation Christians I have known are among the most sincere MTWABP folks I know, but it is not inherent in their understanding of their salvation. It is something that they draw from other teachings of Jesus.
Comment by: ncxian
30I’m afraid my last post clarified nothing, so let me back up.
What I am trying to say, Helen, is that it appears that your former church said “faith, not works”. You disagreed with them, and chose “works, regardless of faith”, which put you outside their acceptable range of answers. Your post seems to me to start with that premise–a black/white choice between faith and works. I am trying to suggest that other Christian communities do not make faith and works an either/or proposition. (And I tried to propose a reason for that which only ended up muddying things, so please forget that part!)
Comment by: Helen
31NCxian wrote:
Yes, that is what my former church teaches.
I don’t know if it was exactly that I disagreed with them; it was more that I found Bible passages which seemed to say otherwise and I found myself unconvinced by their explanations of why they don’t believe those passages say otherwise.
For what it’s worth, my former church never said works don’t matter. Just that they don’t ’save’ you.
Disagreeing with their understanding of salvation definitely would put me outside their ROAA, yes!
Fair enough.
Comment by: Karen
32Yes, that’s true of my experience certainly.
I hadn’t really heard of “process-salvation” before, NC, thanks for explaining it. A question that arises in my mind, however, coming out of the “event-salvation” school of thought, is what happens to someone who dies during the process of salvation? Event-salvation Christians talk a lot about the “assurance of salvation” - since they prayed that prayer, or walked that aisle, they know for sure that they are saved and going to heaven.
Is that an issue for process-salvation folks? Do they have an answer, or is it a problem that does that not even come up?
Comment by: ncxian
33My experience is that Christians who believe that salvation is a process are less sure about who is “in” and who is “out”. I think we just try to be headed in the right direction.
Comment by: Helen
34NCxian wrote:
I like that approach. I see not being sure as a sign of humility even though some Christians might consider it caused by lack of faith or lack of sound teaching.
Comment by: Little James Fernandez
35Hi Jim, thanks for the question + I enjoyed your Revolution conference! If I answer your question, I would be giving away the “secret gift” that new disciples receive on Earth, as told in book of Acts after Jesus ascended into Heaven. We don’t want to spoil the journey for new believers in discovering this powerful gift! God Bless! Little James ?
Comment by: Rachel
36Helen, your comment reminds me of this quote from Soren Kierkegaard:
The matter is quite simple. The Bible is very easy to understand. But we Christians are a bunch of scheming swindlers. We pretend to be unable to understand it because we know very well that the minute we understand it we are obliged to act accordingly. Take any words in the New Testament and forget everything except pledging yourself to act accordingly. My God, you will say, if I do that my whole life will be ruined.
Herein lies the real place of Christian scholarship. Christian scholarship is the Church’s prodigious invention to defend itself against the Bible, to ensure that we can continue to be good Christians without the Bible coming too close. Dreadful it is to fall into the hands of the living God. Yes, it is even dreadful to be alone with the New Testament.
Comment by: Little James Fernandez
37Hi Helen, thanks for your question. I know for certain because in my life now after being saved I have consistent peace and joy, whereas before I didn’t being saved. Based on what the bible says about the nature of Satan, Satan doesn’t give peace and joy! Blessings on your journey of faith! Little James
Comment by: jim henderson
38Helen
What have you learned so far from this conversation?
Comment by: Eliza
39Wow, great topic. Great discussion. (Welcome, Dee and Little James!)
Rachel, interesting quote from Kierkegaard. Without going back through every book of the NT (!) to check, aren’t Matthew, Mark, and Luke the books in which the most ‘difficult’ teachings occur? The list that Helen gave in the original post; give away everything you have (the rich man); turn the other cheek?
That’s how I remember it - and I think that’s part of my difficulty accepting the teachings in Paul’s letters, they just seem to skip over some of the MTWABP teachings from Jesus in the gospels, imo.
Comment by: Pete S
40I agree with NCxian in regards to salvation being a process rather than an event. I believe I am being saved on a daily basis when I practice love, trust God to deliver me from temptation, and do those acts of kindness, compassion, patience, humor, encouragement, etc. that are consistent with the fruits of the Spirit.
Elsewhere in the NT (one of the gospels) Jesus says, “It is not those who cry, ‘Lord, Lord,’ that will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven but those who do the will of My Father.” Here it does NOT look like Jesus is much impressed by formulaic prayers of confession and “come into my heart.” He is quite intentionally calling people to follow Him, to act, to help, to do, to heal, to serve, to give. ACT. DO. Don’t just kneel there, get up and go. Think about how many times Jesus admonishes people to get up and walk immediately after being healed. He’s all about VERBS.
This is not to say, don’t pray. But it is to say real prayers are less in words (the fewer the better) they are all about actions.
Comment by: Melanie
41Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except through Me.” That is unquestionable, isn’t it? I am assuming most here believe in the Scriptures being the inspired Word of God? Or is this a site that questions that too? I haven’t done much research on this site except to read a few blogs here and there. But I find the concept that you can get into Heaven by good works to be directly opposed to what I have read in Scriptures. James does point out that good works are essential for Godly living. But our salvation doesn’t hinge on them. Rather, they are born out of our salvation and a changed heart. That isn’t to say that “unsaved” or people who don’t follow Christ can’t do good works and can’t have compassion and concern for others. Look at two certain un-named celebrities who are currently reaching out to those who are the most needy while publicly flaunting an adulterous relationship that resulted in the destruction of a marriage in front of the entire world. They are obviously NOT concerned with God’s laws or even His preferences when it comes to marriage, but they do seem to be genuinely concerned with helping the needy. Are you saying He will just blink at the out-right in-your-face disregard of the sacredness of marriage because they are feeding the poor and doing good works? I don’t say this to condemn these two - heaven help me if I dared to stand in judgement of any man or woman. I would be convicted of similar or worse sins. The point I am trying to make is that there are plenty of people who literally thumb their noses at God and the very idea of His existence while at the same time doing many charitable and benevolent works in their own names. Am I to believe that those people will spend eternity in the presence of a God they refuse to even acknowledge exists? You simply can’t discount, “If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” And I think the operative word here is believe. An entire book is devoted to the concept of faith - look at Hebrews where faith is what has made men friends of God and has been accounted to them, or credited to them, as righteousness. They have been considered righteous in God’s sight because of their faith in Him and in what He has said. It is faith that saves us - always. Faith that it is HE WHO IS ABLE to save us - and not we ourselves. Faith that when Jesus claimed to be the Messiah, He was telling the truth. Faith that He will take our sins from us and remember them no more. Perhaps I sound very evangelical. But I can’t get away from the book of Hebrews…
Anyway - I may be a little out of place on this site - I’m pretty traditional. But I have also learned over the years that things are not at all as they appear… nor are they necessarily as I have been taught all my life. And the Scriptures are not only what they appear to be upon first reading them. They are the literal living Word of God, which makes them layer upon layer of mystery… too deep for us to discover in a life-time.
I am rambling. Everyone have a nice week.
Comment by: Melanie
42P.S. I just read back over my entry, and it probably wasn’t nice to mention the celebrities. While the entire situation just infuriates me to no end, I wouldn’t even begin to try to say what the conditions of their hearts are. I can’t say and don’t have the right to, and I don’t even pretend to know. Just trying to make a point that you can be a really benevolent person and still seem to miss the whole point of Jesus’ teachings. In fact, if we’re really being honest here, how benevolent or “kind” has that entire situation been to the first wife? Now on to things that matter a little more… I agree with the “go and do” premise of being part of the kingdom of God. Jesus talked about those who had given food to the hungry, clothed the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned - and said that those were the ones who He was going to invite to spend eternity with Him. And then He talked about those who had refused to do those things, and they were made to depart from Him. At the same time, running throughout the entirety of the Scriptures - from Old Testament to New - is the concept of a simple and child-like love and faith in God being what saves. And in the New Testament, that is translated into a faith in Jesus as God’s Son. And when I said the Scriptures are layer upon layer of mystery, that is what I was talking about. There is no reason that the two cannot be equally and simultaneously true. We cannot begin to think or reason like God. We can only do what He has told us to. He has told us to believe. He has told us to do. So IMHO, both are necessary parts of salvation. Don’t ask me how that all works - I haven’t the faintest idea. But I have enough faith in God’s deep and abiding love for us and in His mercy and His remembering that we are dust to believe that the condition of our hearts is what He is seeing. I am thankful that His ways are not my ways (whew!) and that His thoughts are higher than mine (double whew!) and that I don’t have to understand it all or make sense of it all to completely trust Him and take Him at His Word. It does make for good discussion, though.
Comment by: Melanie
43Ok - one more entry - I just went back and discovered what Conversation on the Edge actually is. AFTER posting my entries. And now I am laughing at a couple of my comments and questions. I was on the ebay atheist blog for a little while after following Hemant’s journey. Frankly, the blog exhausted me, and I had to bow out to take care of my three litte ones. (I was mommy23angels). But I did like it enough to subscribe to Off the Map’s Idealab. I clicked on it today, and here I am. I am glad to have found this. I may check back here and there. To those I recognize - good to see you. And to those who don’t necessarily believe - I hope I didn’t use too much Christianese. I tend to sometimes… Again, everyone have a wonderful week, and God bless you!
Comment by: jim henderson
44I liked that part of your comment Melanie- I think that expresses how all of us feel
Comment by: benjamin ady
45Little James
I am intrigued by the contrasting similarities and differences in our journeys. While I certainly wouldn’t say I have “consistent peace and joy” in my life, I can see a very clear negative correlation in my life between my levels of peace and joy and my levels of belief/assurance about the whole christian thing (whatever that might mean). That is, the less I believe, the more peaceful I am, and I can certainly say that I currently have less (in general) belief/Christianity than I ever have had, and I also currently have more (in general) peace/joy than I ever have had. I’m stoked for you that you have consistent peace and joy–the more experienced I become, the more convinced I am that these are relatively rare treasures among humans.
Comment by: benjamin ady
46Helen, you stirred the pot a bit. It’s almost up to a full sixth of the number of comments in the last really big “stir the pot” post.
Today I said to my wife “What would it look like to devote 10 minutes every day to the cause of ending extreme poverty?”. So tomorrow I am starting the experiment, and have scheduled 10 minutes. I am intrigued to see if it comes to anything, because 10 mintues doesn’t really seem to be enough to do *anything*. Still, we shall see…
Comment by: Andrew
47I got left behind but …
SezMe said:
I actually had no intention of saying anything more! Just wanted to where it would go.
:)
Comment by: Andrew
48Hey benjamin ady - instead of 10 minuted how about 10 bucks? I’m collecting for my ongoing work in Rwanda - http://rwanda.day4.org.au
Sorry Helen - couldn’t let an opportunity to fundraise pass!
:)
Comment by: Paul
49i’d say more ‘finding’ healing Helen than completely healed - i’m a bit of a work in progress ;)
Comment by: Helen
50Rachel quoting Kierkegaard:
That’s a great quote, Rachel.
Little James - like Benjamin said, I’m glad you have peace and joy.
Jim, what have I learned? That you are one of the best question-askers I’ve ever met! Actually I already knew that, so maybe that doesn’t count ;-)
Eliza, my recollection is that MTWABP is woven through Paul’s letters, both in his tone and in what he says. Bear in mind that the nature of a letter is only to cover a bit of the life of the writer and its recipients. Wow, now I am doing it - making excuses for the Bible - I guess old habits die hard! ;-) That would be an interesting project: find examples of where Paul encouraged MTWABP/affirmed/role-modeled MTWABP in his letters. So often his letters are used to ‘prove’ a point about Christian doctrine. But there’s more in them than doctrine, imo.
Pete S thanks for affirming the importance of what we do.
Melanie/Mommy23angels, thanks for dropping by - it’s good to see you again! I don’t know the answer to, how does God deal with people who combine wonderful deeds with shameful ones; except I hope the answer is ‘with grace’ since that probably describes every one of us.
Benjamin, I liked your response to Little James. I like your 10 minutes a day experiment too. Can you e-mail me about what ways you’re finding to work on extreme poverty 10 mins a day?
One of the reasons for the number of comments on here is that this post was included the monthly idealab e-zine. If anyone is not on the mailing list, you can click on that link to sign up.
Andrew, in 25 words or less what is your ongoing work in Rwanda?
Paul - yeah, me too. Well, I’m glad you’re in progress and not stuck!
Comment by: Andrew
51Comment by: Andrew
5225 words or less - poverty eradication and community development and development of indigenous expressions of Christianity.
How’s that? :)
Sorry about the double comment - I only discovered the “edit” button after I had re-posted the comment!
Comment by: Helen
53Hi Andrew, that’s an excellent 25-word-or-less description!
I like the first two; I have mixed feelings about spending money on Christianity. I hope you get the financial support you need from those who can unequivocally support all three things you’re doing in Rwanda.
The edit button is relatively new - neat, huh? :) I think you have a 2 hour window in which to edit comments after you post them.
Comment by: Keith
54In 1 John 5:13, John wrote, “I write these things to you who believe in the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.” While his letter will not answer each question we have raised here, it is a worthwhile and brief read. IMO, his letter navigates the issues of process- vs. event-salvation, and gives a picture that combines elements of both.
Thanks for posting this, Helen.
Comment by: Helen
55Thanks Keith.
Discussing process vs. event salvation is fine with me.
However in doing so we’re still focusing on salvation being about my eternal future.
Was that Jesus’ focus? Could one reason Jesus said what he did, in the passages I referred to, be that it’s not really supposed to be all about me?
Comment by: Eliza
56Excellent question
Picking one point to ‘prove’ by counterexample ;) how about 1 Tim 5:3-16, which starts with “Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need” (emphasis added).
It goes on later to say “No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband,and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds. As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list….Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to.”
This comes across as sweeping in its judgmentalism; it sets up a list of rules, and it excludes some people on the basis of past actions, marital status, and age. This is not the way Jesus talked to people or about people! (as far as we know)
The discussion in 1 Tim 5 about widows goes on to conclude in v 16 with some advice that sounds like MTWABP, but is also qualified: “If any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she should help them and not let the church be burdened with them, so that the church can help those widows who are really in need.” (Is that advising that people help each other, or is it advising that the church not be “burdened” with widows who don’t meet the “really in need” criteria?)
The next line, 1 Tim 5:17, starts: “The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor…” (seemingly setting up a comparison with widows, who aren’t as worthy). I guess there’s no “needs test” for the elder men, like there is for the elder women. :( It’s just hard for me to get this all to fit with the picture I get of Jesus, as described in MMLJ, as honoring those quietly doing thankless work, in unhonored positions in society.
Comment by: andrea
57Lots of interesting comments!
I guess my questions would be these:
Where does the cross fit into these comments about salvation?
Where does personal repentence fit into these comments about getting to heaven?
Don’t get me wrong, we need to live our faith and do what Jesus did and do what he taught us to do, but if that is all it takes for eternal life, why would God bother with the cross and a price that had to be paid for mankind.
Why do we have a choice?
Jesus did say we had to believe in Him and believe that He was God and came to pay a price to set the captives free!
Comment by: Donavan
58Helen wrote
“Donovan you make it sound easy but how many of these things have you done in the last week?”
I’m sorry if my comments made it sound easy. It’s not easy. I don’t usually spend my day searching for those opportunities but when I know about someone that has a need I usually respond as best I can. Expressing kindness can be done for different reasons. I wonder if it matters to God.
“As I understand it, there are many theories about the connection between Jesus death and the human race.”
I guess I’m out of the loop because I’m not aware of that many theories and I’m not asking you to break them down for me because as you say, it doesn’t really matter. Being kind is important but I wonder why Jesus had to die if all we needed to know was be kind.
Helen, thanks for letting me be a part of this stimulating conversation
Comment by: Helen
59Eliza wrote:
Eliza, I agree with you. I wish all Christians had the freedom to make these sorts of judgments about the writings in the Bible.
This purports to be a letter from the recognized leader of the church to a younger church leader. Much of it consists of practical advice about being in charge of a church.
Imo, we should be free to make judgments about whether it’s good advice, whether it’s sexist, whether it lines up with what Jesus said in the gospels, whether it’s relevant to us today 2,000 years later, etc. We should have that freedom, imo, even though it’s hard to assess someone just from their writing, never having met them or heard them.
But in circles where it’s considered to be ‘the Word of God’ there is not that freedom.
Taking the practical advice of one man to another, written in a very different culture, and elevating it to be ‘the Word of God’, seems a very strange thing, to me. I hope no-one ever does that with any of my letters (I know, I know, there’s no chance that will ever happen ;-)). What if I was feeling irritable when I wrote them and said things that were unfair? etc.
Comment by: Helen
60Andrea wrote:
Donovan wrote:
Andrea and Donovan, I wonder too. I could give an opinion but it would only be an opinion and not necessarily ‘the right answer’.
You’re welcome!
Donovan, if you’re interested in reading about them, this Wikipedia entry describes at least six of them
Comment by: Little James Fernandez
61Thanks SezMe for comment #7. Actually in the Bible, Jesus did face-off against Satan in a UFC-like showdown in desert and won!(beginning of chapters 4 of Matthew & Luke). Satan tried to tempt Jesus 3 times, swung & missed all 3 times. Strikeout! Jesus said “It is written…” :)
Comment by: Carl
62I would agree that the “way of salvation” is often portrayed as formulaic. However, I strongly disagree with your use of Scripture.
Both Jesus and Paul rebuked people for thinking that they could be good enough for Heaven. Both commanded repentance and faith in Jesus.
More important to your discussion above, both Jesus and Paul used the 10 commandments as a reason TO come to Jesus. They both, in effect, demand that you either perfectly obey, or seek a savior to forgive disobedience.
And that’s the point, isn’t it. Heaven isn’t about being good. It really is about being forgiven. Yes that sounds trite. But only to those people that are over-used to hearing it and no longer appreciate it.
Forgiveness is given, according to Jesus, only when people place their trust in Him. John 3: 16-17
I would encourage you to rethink your viewpoint. Yes, I agree, what you was taught sounds canned. But just because it was put in a simplistic formula doesn’t mean it isn’t true.
Comment by: Helen
63Carl, the problem I have with what you’re saying is: it implies that much of the time Jesus was confusing and indirect, constantly referring to what people did, when what he cared about was what people believed. Matthew, Mark and Luke record several of these instances. John fortunately had his tape recorder running when Jesus, for once, was clear.
Bottom line: I have a problem with systematic theologies which imply Jesus was confusing and indirect and didn’t say what he meant, a lot of the time. Which also imply: it was just as well John wrote what he did and Paul wrote his letters, otherwise we’d all be hopelessly wrong about what actually gets anyone to heaven.
Why not look at what Jesus actually said in Matthew, Mark and Luke, rather than only looking at John, or what he ‘in effect’ said?
Comment by: Rachel
64Donovan, if you DO decide that you want to dig deeper into this, what Helen is talking about is called “atonement theory.” There are many different theories of atonement (understandings of why Jesus died and what his death accomplished/communicated) that are part of different streams of Christian tradition.
Comment by: Rachel
65Ooops…I didn’t read far enough. Now I see that Helen already gave a link regarding atonement theory.
Comment by: Rachel
66I have a problem with that as well, Helen. As Brian McLaren always says, we must interpret Paul in light of Jesus, not Jesus in light of Paul.
Comment by: Helen
67Rachel, I’d love to be able to ask Paul, “Paul, did you realize that people interpret Jesus’ words in light of what you wrote? How do you feel about that?”
Comment by: Karen
68Helen:
I think this is where the “inerrancy” of scripture plays a big role in how it’s viewed by various groups of believers. Those who hold fast to the notion that the bible is divinely inspired, literally true and inerrant don’t have the freedom, as you say, to ask questions about it such as those you posed (is it still applicable? is it sexist? and so forth).
Comment by: jim henderson
69Why do Christians speak this way? It sounds so pointy and directive. Why isn’t it more the norm to say
“your view makes me uncomfortable and makes me want to tell you to stop but then I realize that I have a point of view as well that is no less subjective than yours so I guess I just want to understand more about how you arrived at your point of view”
Why dont I see more questions like that?
Comment by: benjamin ady
70Jim, you ask a fascinating question. In my experience genuine, unfettered curiosity is somewhat … stifled in Christian circles (although admittedly I have somewhat limited experience compared to the vast array of people and Christians out there). Me thinks perhaps it’s against at least a couple of the (implicit or explicit) rules. Could it be related to … power maintenance? (genuinely asking–not trying to be rhetorical here)
Carl,
Does “I would encourage you to …” fall into the category of “oughty-should phrases”?
‘Cause it kind of sets off my oughty-should warning monitor a bit.
Comment by: Eliza
71Jim wrote:
Given what is said to be at stake, isn’t it a natural tendency to want to locate a path which gives one a sense of certainty & security? And to encourage others to follow that same path, not be distracted & wander off of it?
Edited to add: Oooh, post #71 - a prime number! ;-)
Comment by: Helen
72Benjamin wrote:
It set mine off a bit too. I think ours must have been manufactured by the same company ;-).
Re-applying something I heard once “Why are they so good at pushing your buttons? Because they installed them!”
Jim, if I am right and you are wrong, why would I put effort into understanding your viewpoint more? At best it’s of no value to me to know more about what’s wrong; at worst it could tempt me astray. So I think I’ll just stand over here and point fingers from a safe distance ;-).
Comment by: Helen
73Eliza wrote:
lol Eliza :) My son came first in the local chapter of mathcounts on Saturday - we’re very happy for him!
Comment by: Eliza
74Helen - that’s great!!
And you got to do post #73, another prime number! :)
Comment by: joe
75WOOOOOHOOOO
Now we’re really talking! How come we don’t have conversations like this in church?
Helen, you are 100% right and on the money.
‘The kingdom of heaven’ is not something that happens to you when you die. It is something in the here and now, a weird kind of radical, world-upsetting movement, which you’re either involved in or you’re not. It is not about ticking the right religious boxes, but whether you are engaged to the extent that you turn over the tables of the dominent thinking and give yourself to others in need. Gosh, there is so much to say and so little time to say it.
Following Jesus is not about accepting a bunch of yes/no propositions, but about doing and being. About taking up a cross.
And when Jesus is dying on the cross, I believe God is basically saying this:
‘I’m for you, not against you. If you want to obtain all the spiritual gold stars, you must follow not the upwardly-mobile self-centred spirituality but the down-wardly immobile self-sacrificial Way of the Cross. Now get on with it.’
OK, I paraphrase.
We can count the cost and decide it is too much, that the demands of the gospel are too stupid and should be ignored - which in reality is what most of us do most of the time. But we can never, ever claim to be anything to do with the life and message of Christ and at the same time reduce the kingdom of heaven to a line in the sand of correct doctrine.
Rather than an in-out model, I hold onto a christo-centric model. In my thinking, there are no in-cast and out-cast. There are no boundaries or lines or points at which you become spiritual or any of that jazz. There is simply the figure of Christ, urging us to come closer, to seek healing and blessing. And each of us must make a daily choice - to either walk towards the light or away from it.
It matters little where you start from, it is the direction of movement that is important.
Comment by: Helen
76Thanks Joe - I like how you look at following Jesus.
And I love “I’m for you, I’m not against you,” as an explanation of why God did what he did. I have questions about it but nevertheless I would like to think that’s the reason.
Comment by: Rachel
77Because many of us were taught that to respond that way is to be “ashamed of the gospel of Christ.” And to be pointy and directive is to NOT be ashamed of the gospel.
Comment by: Rachel
78That was a beautiful description of the path of following Christ, Joe. Thank you!
Comment by: benjamin ady
79hehe–another prime
Comment by: benjamin ady
80Andrew,
I’m gonna have to pass on the $10 thing–but I do like the rainwater storage project. Very kewl. We so totally take potable running water for granted around here. I’m just not totally sure about the money going for bibles and hymnals.
Comment by: Pete S
81Andrea wrote:
And Helen wrote before that:
Years ago when I was older than a lad, yet younger than an adult I asked someone in my church what was the purpose of church (or perhaps belief or faith…I don’t remember exactly). He said, “to get to heaven.”
Now I have thought about that–mused, pondered–for years and I think he was both right and wrong. It all depends what one means about heaven, and whether one is supposing it’s all about “me” individually getting to heaven.
So here’s some thoughts on heaven:
1) It isn’t all about me, or you, individually walking through pearly gates and getting handed a crown so he can breathe out a sigh of relief, “whew, finally I got mine.” “Whew, I made it.”
2) It isn’t about “getting into” a place. Jesus said all sorts of things about the Kingdom of Heaven and most were in parables…odd things really. Complex, Peculiar, upsetting (at times) Perplexing: The Kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour until it was all leavened.” Now people have been unpacking this for centuries, but all I need to say at this point is that it doesn’t say anything about a place, about comfort, about me. It’s about influencing, overcoming, infecting and transforming a lot with just a little. It not an isolated “ME” or “YOU” its all about an “US” that comes into being when a little of GOD invades and pervades us. I think the idea of leavening here implies community: a common unity.
3) Belief that leads to salvation does not just mean an intellectual assent, or a mere profession of belief. Such words and such thinking informs and articulates what must be in one’s heart and what one does. Again, Jesus said: “Not all those who say, ‘Lord, Lord,’… but those who do the will of my Father who is in Heaven.”
Paul himself said “continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.” (Phil. 2: 12, 13) Salvation isn’t a one time act or happening. It is something lived, breathed, acted and reenacted: it is recreating, renewing, transforming.
Does it come as a result of a decision for Christ? No, not just one decision, but endless, continuing decisions we make over and over again for Him, for others, for health and holiness, hope and humor. He never divorces Himself or faith in Him from love for others: brothers,sisters, neighbors, strangers, and enemies.
BICBW (But I Could Be Wrong)
By the way, what does MTWABP mean?
Comment by: Helen
82Thanks for your comment, Pete. I like Jesus’ comments about the kingdom of heaven. I wrote about “the tree which birds rest in” one recently.
MTWABP = “making the world a better place”
Comment by: julie marie
83haha Helen!
Hi again Mommy23 :)
Joe said:
I like that!
Comment by: Little James Fernandez
84Here is a different angle that helped me early in my journey to being saved. On any kind of trip, I always like to know “where I am going and what the destination will be like.” So I started reading all sorts of books about Heaven, by both Christian and non-Christian authors. In the process of learning about different views on Heaven, I found my own perspective about Heaven changing to an eternal one, meaning I started thinking about my life as a preparation for eternal life in Heaven. The reality is life on Earth is temporary. We will die someday so it makes logical sense that we learn about where we will be living forever after death, and then how best to prepare for that life. There are lots of details scattered throughout the Bible about Heaven. The most complete book I can recommend on Heaven is “Heaven” by Randy Alcorn. Enjoy! Little James :)
Comment by: Laura M.
85Just a few questions I’ve never been able to figure out the answers to:
Is it possible that ‘recieving Jesus as Savior and Lord’ and ‘all things through faith in him’ simply means in modern English…You must become a follower of Jesus, there is no other way to save yourselves?
In other words, that you must try live your life by the principles that he preached, having faith that this is the way that God wants man to behave? That he is Lord because he is the Master, and we are his followers, his students, dependent upon his word? Wouldn’t this mean that a simple prayer isn’t sufficient? Couldn’t it also mean that belief in Jesus’ divinity isn’t really necessary? What is necessary is following his humanitarian teachings?
Can’t ‘Ask, in my name, and you shall recieve’ simply mean keep Jesus’ words and teachings in mind when you ask of God and of yourself what you want out of life?
Can’t ‘In Jesus’ name ‘ simply mean belief in the sayings attributed to Jesus’? In other words, ‘In the name of Jesus’ could mean ‘by the teachings of Jesus’, or in modern English… those sayings (quotes) have Jesus’ name all over them.
Could terms like ’shall not perish’ and ‘ever lasting life’ refer to the future of humanity as a whole, rather than the individual?
Could ‘the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand’ mean it is here within your grasp?
There is frequent talk about preparing for heaven. Could this mean that followers of Jesus are obliged to prepare Earth and their fellow humans in a manner so as to create an environment similar to what is expected to be there for them in heaven?
Now here’s a real stretch… Could ‘He died for your sins’ mean Jesus’ death was a result of the sinfulness of those around him who did not speak out against the injustice of his execution? The result being, he died because of their sins. He paid the ultimate price, loss of his life, because of the sins of man (the men and women who didn’t stop it)? Perhaps the purpose of his death to teach mankind the horror of injustice which is not condemned?
Comment by: Helen
86Laura thanks - these are awesome questions!
I reposted them here:
Laura’s questions
Comment by: Laura M.
87Just curious,
what was it that people could do before Jesus came to earn their way into heaven? I understand there was Hebrew law, which was very specific, but if humans now can’t possibly manage to live without sin, how was it that people then would have been able to follow all of God’s laws in order to ‘earn’ their way into heaven?
I thought that according to Christian theology, following all of God’s laws was believed to be impossible for humans. Heaven was impossible to earn, rather than earning entry was ‘no longer needed’.
I understand the concept of humans not being worthy of Heaven. If sinlessness is required none of us can ever be worthy.
But when a person works very hard to create something with their own two hands, when they seek out the lessons of the wise and take their lessons to heart faithfully following their instructions, when they seek out others and faithfully teach those lessons to those others so that there is then communion in the work, and when the persevering faithful continue in this effort to draw community to their work and slowly, steadily build a kingdom together that is strong and large enough to shelter all… would not these faithful workers be considered worthy of the very kingdom that they built with their own hard work and individual as well as community …’sacrifice’?
Comment by: Helen
88Laura wrote:
I was taught that before Jesus came, people who ‘believed God’ were saved ‘on credit’, as it were - because Jesus was going to die for them in the future.
Which means, as you said, people never earned their way into heaven.
I would have thought so, Laura.
Comment by: Billy
89God provided the way of salvation through the Savior - Jesus - as a free gift out of His love for people. Abraham and many others believed the promise of God to send this Savior and that faith was credited to them as righteousness before God. That is - those before Christ were also saved by faith, not by what they did (helping others, etc).
Comment by: Laura M.
90One man said he had total faith in his doctor , he believed the doctor could save him from a deathly illness because the doctor was so much greater and wiser than he was. After all, who ws he to question his doctor when told what needed to be done? Yet he refused to follow doctors instructions on how to cure his disease. Oh, certainly he believed that the cure would succeed, but it was just too much work. Anyway, he’d heard there might be an easier way, one that didn’t require any work. Lots of people had told the man that they thought there was a pill that if taken faithfully, would save lives.
“I just want to take that pill I heard about,” the patient told the doctor.
“It’s not that easy,” said the doctor,”the way to saving your life involves effort on your part, and a lot of personal sacrifice. Sure there’s a pill, but you really need to do all this other stuff too. I’ll be here for you whenever you need help and I’ll do everything I can for you, but you’ve got to do your part too.”
“Well thanks Doc, I really appreciate that, and I have so much faith in you that I’ll take you at your word on that.” And he really meant it, truly he did. “But I think I’ll just be taking that pill your offering for now. After all, that’s why I donated so much money to the drug companies to help develop this pill. I knew that it was important, and I wanted to show you how much faith I have in you and what you stand for. I already sacrificed a great deal of time and money, to make sure I did the right thing, by way of helping out in the making of this pill.”
“I understand and appreciate your faith in me and what I do, and in making this pill happen. Faith in your doctor is very important.But all that work you did isn’t going to help you now. The stuff we’re talking about now is what you’ve got to do. It’s hard, but it has to be done. It’s good that you have faith. Please draw strength from that when this gets hard. When things get difficult, that faith can keep you going.”
The patient went home, but forgot all about the advice the doctor had given him on how to save his life. It sounded like work to him. And it had sounded like the doctor cared more about his faith in him, than all the hard work he’d already done anyway. So he faithfully took the pill.
Another patient, also dying of the same illness, was dragged kicking and screaming all the way to the same doctor. Oh how he mistrusted doctors and he told the doctor so. When the doctor gave him instructions he didn’t know for sure if he should follow them or not. After all, he’d never had faith in doctors and didn’t know if he ever would. One thing he knew for sure was that doctors weren’t God (if there was such a thing as God), no matter how much people treated them as if they were. But the instructions the doctor was giving him seemed to make sense. He knew it would be a lot of hard work. He wished he had real faith that it would work, because he knew that would give him strength if he started to falter. Strength for those times when he just didn’t feel like doing what had to be done to save his failing body.
It was true that what the doctor wanted him to do just made sense and seemed to be working for others. He decided to do the best thing that he could figure out to do for himself, and that meant follow up with the doctor and take his advice on what he should be doing. He thought about all the other people in his life who loved or depended on him, all the people whose lives had been or could be affected by his. The great thing was that if it worked, he would tell others who were ailing and needed the same kind of advice, so that they could get help too.
No, he didn’t have faith, and he probably never would. It just wasn’t in his nature. It took all kinds of people to make up this world, some who had faith and some who didn’t, and he thought that diversity made the world an interesting place. He was the kind of person who went with the evidence, who believed in things that could be seen.
No, he definitely didn’t have faith…
but he had hope.
Comment by: David Malouf
91Seems to me a critical issue in this is why one is equating “kingdom of Heaven” with Heaven itself.
I know we all grew up on it, but it DOES cause quite a bit of issue when we do that — don’t know that it’s a good idea.
Example, the kingdom of God isn’t God Himself. The Kingdom of Rome is more than Rome (could even be taken as pretty much NOT including Rome), etc. Whether it is a person or a place, their “kingdom” is usually not the the person/place.
I’ll leave the mess to another post ;-)
Malouf
Phoenix, Arizona
Comment by: Brian
92I guess the problem with this concept is that there are plenty of people with no concept of God or Jesus who do nice things.
But are those people saved?
I don’t think so. The Bible is fairly clear about a faith/belief aspect in Christ as he is the only way to heaven or the Father.
Now yes, the pray this prayer and go to heaven approach is cheap and inefficient since many don’t even develop or think anything about Christ beyond that point, but the ‘be nice’ approach is equally as devistating to the Christian FAITH.
Their is a synergy between belief and action. This synergy is found in Christ’s love and relationship with his body of BELIEVERS (not just doers or nice people - not just 1 time I said a prayer people either).
Comment by: Kathleen
93Wow, really interesting topic. I can’t believe I didn’t see it before (wait, yes I can. I haven’t had internet access for the past month). I’ll throw in my Catholic perpsective: “Outside the Church, no salvation.”
Just kidding.
I once had it presented to me, horribly, as a sort of quota system. It’s possible to get into Heaven without believing in Jesus, but it’s harder. As if you have to do more good works to make the cut. That’s silly.
I think that what makes sense from that perspective is that it’s easier to know what to do if you are following Jesus (but that raises the eternal question…why can’t you tell who believes by how they act towards others?). I can’t possibly believe that Gandhi, for example, isn’t in Heaven (or at least on his way there - handy Purgatory means there’s no immediacy to the in/out question). Surely, with all this talk of forgiveness, God, all-loving as He is, could forgive Gandhi the tiny oversight of not believing. Besides, if Hell is full of people like Gandhi, it doesn’t seem like it would be all that bad, does it?
I think that offical Church teaching is that you “need” to believe, in addition to which you need to have been baptised, regularly practiced the sacraments that need regular practice, i.e. Cofession, Communion (regularly getting married probably doesn’t win you any points), AND that you also need to behave how Jesus wanted you to behave (there are the good works), BUT that it’s God who saves, not man (you don’t earn salvation through good works, you both do good works and are saved through the grace of God), so He can also choose to save anyone falls outside those boundaries, which makes sense to me. There are things you should do to follow Jesus, but it’s the grace of God that gets you in or not - and He decides who gets that, not us. Personally, I think that it takes a lot of trying to not receive it (and I’m not talking not believing - I’m talking murder and rape AND not believing/not wanting forgiveness).
Comment by: Bob
94I’m no Buddhist scholar, but the four spiritual laws you listed as someone’s summary of how Christianity works remind me of the Four Noble Truths, which were Buddha’s first teachings.
It looks to me like Buddhism and the type of Christianity your teacher tried to pass on to you both focus on something similar. A Buddhist would call it enlightenment and this kind of Christian would call it salvation.
Comment by: Helen
95Bob, thanks for your comment. I don’t see a strong similarity between the Four Noble Truths and the Four Spiritual Laws (except that there are four of them ;-))
Feel free to share the connection you see between them - I’m interested to hear.