Posted by Eliza on: 02.06.2007 /
OK, pleasant surprise, this class was interesting. As I look back over my notes, the pastor’s discussion was more interesting than the text’s comments on this topic. (The text starts this topic off with: “The child of God enjoys high privileges, not the least of which is prayer.” The text could stand to be revised to meet the 21st century, methinks.) I suspect I found the discussion of this topic more interesting because it was less judgmental and more personal (more real human-life details) than some of the other class topics. Also, I learned some interesting things!
1. What is prayer?
The text quotes from Psalm 10 & 19 to conclude that prayer is talking to God either with the heart and lips, or only with the heart. The pastor reminded us that God speaks to people in Word and Sacrament. He added that people speak to God in prayer: “Prayer is just talking to God.” I like that description; it’s simple, and it simply describes what the person is doing, without assuming alot.
I also liked the pastor’s description of prayer as “the highest form of worship” and the reasons he called it this: In prayer, (1) you are acknowledging the existence of God. (2) you are acknowledging that God cares about you. (3) you are showing that you believe that He can help you. Seems to me, these are all true statements about prayer, and they seem like a thoughtful evaluation of it.
2. Whose prayers are heard?
The text did not address this; the pastor did. He did not address what happens if an unbeliever or a Christian who belongs to the wrong denomination ;-) tries to pray. (I have to ask: what’s the difference between “tries to pray” and “prays”? How does one know if the effort was successful, as a prayer?)
The pastor felt moved to comment on Islam, saying “Allah is not the 1 true God. You know why? He’s not triune, and he didn’t send Jesus. So, when Moslems pray to God, those prayers are not answered. I’m glad I’m not in the Middle East saying this. You have to have the right God, and the right Jesus.”
You can disagree with him or agree with him; I found this interesting, because I have long believed that all 3 Abrahamic religions follow the same God & I wasn’t sure why some Christians felt sure that was not the case.
I also found it interesting that he commented several times how glad he was to be in a safe spot making this comment, the message being that he would have the same opinion (sorry: knowledge) if he lived in the Middle East, it would just be less safe to say it out loud. But, really, if he’d been born and raised in the Middle East, what are the chances he would be Christian today? (This pastor was raised in the LCMS church, he has said; he said he re-examined his faith as a young man and decided that the LCMS beliefs were true.)
3. What should move us to pray?
The text gave 2 quotes. First, Matthew 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given you.” The pastor said, “This can be seen either as a command or an invitation. This church sees it as a command; we need to pray whether or not we feel like it. Sometimes, we need to be reminded.” (Church services are one place to be reminded, I guess.)
Second, the text gave Psalm 50:15 “Call upon me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you will honor me.”
I noticed during class, but did not point out, that this is another section of scripture taken (imo) out of context and presented as a complete thought. Actually, Psalm 50:14-15 reads, “14Sacrifice thank offerings to God, fulfill your vows to the Most High, 15and call upon me…” and Psalm 50 ends with: “22Consider this, you who forget God, or I will tear you to pieces, with none to rescue: 23He who sacrifices thank offerings honors me, and he prepares the way so that I may show him the salvation of God.” This is all very Old Testament, with all those references to sacrificing thank offerings – for me, the citation doesn’t make a very compelling argument for Christian beliefs & practices when it’s surrounded by Jewish beliefs & practices. I have trouble taking things (imo) so far out of context. (Do Jews reach the same God when they pray? Or not, since they don’t pray in Jesus’s name?)
4. How should we pray?
The text quoted John 16:23 (“I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name”), the point being that prayers should be made in Jesus’s name. (The text made a point, under the loaded question “Does this mean that we are to pray only to God?” that “prayers should be addressed to the one true God, not to idols, the Virgin Mary, or the saints” — I know which group that was directed at, and the pastor spelled it out in case it was unclear to anyone.)
Another quote cited in the text was Matthew 6:7 “And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words”. I would like to point out that immediately preceding that is Matthew 6:5-6, “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.”
If this were read literally, wouldn’t this church want to keep prayer in the home and out of Sunday services, which could be more for teaching and inspiration? (Since I didn’t ask in class, I don’t know how this pastor & this church would read/interpret Matthew 6:5-6. I’m sure it isn’t read as literally condemning prayer in churches or in public. How do other churches, other Christians interpret this section?)
The text also cited James 1:6-7, saying that people should pray with confidence, not as an afterthought. 1 John 5:14 and Luke 22:42 were given as examples that prayers should acknowledge God’s will. The text and pastor said that God promises certain things (wisdom, faith, salvation) and gives these freely; but if requests are made for other things, including material things, one should add “if it be your will.” (I would guess that distinction in how to word one type of requests versus another type might not be made by Christians in other denominations…?)
5. When & where should we pray?
This part was mostly from the pastor; the text didn’t really address it. The main points were 1 Thessalonians 5:17 “pray continually” and 1 Timothy 2:8 “pray everywhere”. The pastor said you can pray at home, in your car, anywhere. (Someone asked later if you should close your eyes, & the pastor said “Not while you’re driving!” He added that the Bible doesn’t say anything about what position to be in, whether to clasp hands in front or to close eyes.) He said many Christians say a prayer when they hear an ambulance, and he certainly prays when he is on an airplane. He added that take off and landing were the most dangerous times so he figured those were the best times to pray. I thought it would seem snide to point out the most dangerous room at home, in which one might therefore be best advised to pray. So I didn’t. (It’s the bathroom.)
There’s more about where/when in the next section, too.
6. What should we pray for?
The text gave 1 Tim 2:1, pray for all people. The text says, “We are to pray for ourselves, our loved ones; the poor, sick, and lonely; our president, pastors, and missionaries.” I was quite pleased that the pastor added Matthew 5:44, “But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you…” Several students spoke up & volunteered that they find loving their enemies quite difficult, and the pastor acknowledged that it is very difficult, and added that being a Christian isn’t easy. (This discussion, though short, seemed more lively, & the students more frank, than any other discussion I can recall from this class.)
The basic distinction was made between praying for requests versus praying out of gratitude. The pastor said he has to remind himself to say “thank you” prayers, including when lying in bed at night. He says he says thanks for things like his warm bed and the meal he’ll have in the morning, because others don’t have these things. The pastor said at one point during this part of the class, “I don’t think much of my prayer life, but God can be the judge of that.” This whole discussion was very personal on his part, and seemed humble.
I liked his descriptions of what he prays for, and when, and how he has to remind himself to say thanks instead of only asking for things. I also like the idea that a person can pray wherever s/he is, whenever s/he feels it’s time to pray, rather than having to be in a certain position, or at a certain time. (I have no idea how many Christians follow the everywhere/all the time approach, versus the anywhere/anytime approach, versus the certain places/certain times approach. I’m not Christian, but if I were I can imagine that it might end up being the “when I remember” approach…)
As the pastor was talking about types of prayers, I think he asked if those were all the kinds of prayer, and the vicar (a seminary student doing a year-long internship at this church) said from the back of the room: “Imprecatory.” The pastor said he didn’t want to go into that. Several people expressed confusion and interest, but it just was not to be a topic for class discussion. I asked the vicar about imprecatory prayer after class; he said something like, it’s prayer to bring harm to your enemies, David used it in some of the Psalms. Once he said that, I remembered that I’d read about it, sometime in the past year, in some book, when it discussed the potential purposes of prayer. (I included one link above – I didn’t find alot of info about imprecatory prayer. It’s basically a no-no, since David. Or, at least, since Jesus.)
7. How are prayers answered?
I’d heard this before: “The 3 responses to every prayer are: Yes, No, and Wait.” My impression is that this describes what people observe as a result of prayer – but I wonder how there could be any other response besides those 3, and I also wonder how anyone could determine “wait” from “no response” and “yes/no” from “coincidence” or “what was going to happen anyway even if it doesn’t seem like it.” It does seem like this is another area where study could potentially shine some light on the effects of prayer, looking for differences in outcomes between Christians who pray and nontheists who don’t (and, to test the pastor’s hypothesis about Islam, a group of Moslems who pray to Allah could be included). So far, my understanding is that well-designed studies haven’t shown differences in earthly outcomes, except perhaps lower blood pressure in people who pray.
Anyway, the pastor said the “No” answer is supported by Paul commenting on being kept humble through some infirmity sent by God: 2 Corinthians 12:8-9, “Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you…’ ”
The text says the “Wait” answer is supported by Jesus saying in John 2:4 “My hour has not yet come.” The pastor didn’t think that was the best scripture to support “Wait” but said there were too many that would have to be pieced together for us to go over them in class.
I asked in class about Matthew 7:7 (see #3 above) and John 16:23 (see #4 above), saying these seems to basically state that prayers will be answered “Yes”, and I didn’t see that the Biblical support for “No” and “Wait” were nearly as clear, though I understood that Y/N/W were the responses that people observed. The pastor said something like, “the Bible is not a comic book, you can’t just take one line and think it’s the answer.” (Although, imo, this is how the text is organized & the class was taught.) The following week, during the review of class #13, I asked again about “Wait” as an answer. The pastor said it’s not as clearly spelled out as “Yes” but there are a number of places where someone “waits for the Lord” & later the Lord helps them. The vicar added from the back of the room that it’s inductive, not deductive (which sounded like a good answer for questions in seminary classes!) I searched later, & indeed there are several lines about waiting for the Lord, who will deliver; most are in the Psalms, but lines like that also occur other places in the latter sections of the Old Testament. Waiting for the Lord in the New Testament is waiting for Jesus’s coming, or for eternal life.
I found another comment by Jesus about prayer when searching after class, but I did not bring this up in the class review (I chickened out): Mark 11:23-24 “Therefore, I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.” To me this reads like it supports the “Yes” response, but more literally it seems to support the power of positive thinking. “God helps those who help themselves” isn’t in the Bible, even though it’s quoted like it is; but this quote doesn’t seem that far off.
8. The Lord’s Prayer.
A LCMS brochure about this was given out in class, and the pastor discussed it in even further detail. I learned a number of things & found the discussion very interesting. (BTW, even an unchurched atheist like me knows the Lord’s Prayer. In my case, the 1973 hit song by Sister Janet Mead was how I learned it.)
First, I hadn’t realized that the Lord’s Prayer occurs 2 places in the gospels, Matthew 6:9-13 & Luke 11:2-4; the one in Luke 11:2-4 is shorter – a “stub”. I asked about that; the pastor seemed to think I was pointing out a discrepancy; he said it was fine that they were different, Jesus probably said it several times & Matthew and Luke wrote it down from different times (and different ways) Jesus said it. Actually, my question was just whether the version in Luke was poetic in Aramaic or Greek; it seems pretty clunky in English, & the version in Matthew flows much better. (And it’s interesting – from reading further after class – to realize that Mark doesn’t have the Lord’s Prayer, though there is a short section, Mark 11:25-26, about forgiving others & being forgiven.)
The pastor gave some overview comments. He said we’re already in the kingdom of God. He said there are 7 requests in the Lord’s Prayer, and only 1 is an earthly need (bread) — the others are all spiritual. (He pointed out that some early Christians considered the “bread” in the Lord’s Prayer to be “spiritual bread” — the Lord’s Supper — but that most people today interpreted it as food.) He pointed out that this balance is opposite from the human tendency to ask for earthly things more often than spiritual ones.
In the first line, “Our Father…” the pastor stressed the plural “Our” & said this was because the people are the body of Christ, the church; an individual is not. (The following week, at review for class #13, the text and pastor asked, “Why do we say ‘Our’ in the Lord’s Prayer?” Noone in the class gave this answer, the answer the pastor and text felt was right, though the students tried to come up with answers. It was quite a struggle, kind of painful to watch; people gave all sorts of answers. The most basic answer was, “Because Jesus told us to.” The weirdest answer was, “Because of the third heaven.” Others said things like, “Because we pray for other people” and “Because we pray in church.” I wouldn’t claim to know what Jesus meant by “Our” – any of these answers could be right – but I knew the answer the pastor wanted. But I kept my hand down and my mouth shut – darned if I was going to be the atheist who could parrot back the canned answer, again, after the Adam/Eve/Christian Church question/debacle in class #12.
The difference between Luke (forgive us our sins) and Matthew (forgive us our debts) and the common modern version of the Lord’s Prayer (forgive us our trespasses) was discussed. The pastor had us read on in Matthew 6, where Jesus reiterates the importance of forgiveness immediately after giving the Lord’s Prayer. (In Luke 11, he doesn’t.)
The pastor delved into the line “lead us not into temptation.” He said that from other passages in the Bible, it’s clear that God does not lead us into temptation. But, he said, the ancient Greek words for “test” and “tempt” are the same, and so (he said) this actually refers to a test of faith. He said, “This is how nuanced the Bible is. When we’re faced with temptation, it could either be, (a) temptation from Satan, or (b) a test of faith from God.”
(I read later that “trespasses” was used in the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, and the version of the Lord’s Prayer used in the brochure is the commonly used 1928 version from the Church of England prayer book, which I assume is the same as the 1928 Book of Common Prayer (?). There are apparently some similarities between the Lord’s Prayer and the Kaddish, a central Jewish prayer.)
He said that another translation for “deliver us from evil” was “deliver us from the Evil One.”
I hadn’t realized before that the usual ending of the Lord’s Prayer, “for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever” was not part of the Lord’s Prayer in the Bible. The pastor said it’s a doxology, a short prayer at the end of something else, & derives from Jewish practice. This one is apparently from 1 Chronicles 29:11 “Yours O Lord is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty.” He said “Amen” is from the Hebrew root for trust, faith, or belief, and that it’s like they say on Star Trek: “Make it so!” (I actually think of “amen” as the title & oft-repeated line in the Beatles’ song, “Let it be”.)
9. After class – a flash of understanding?
The pastor made several references to science fiction shows during this class (The Twilight Zone and Star Trek). I was talking with him after class about New Jerusalem & the Bride of Christ (from class #12) when somehow we got to talking about other dimensions. I mentioned the book Flatland, which he knew of. He said quietly that he thinks God and Jesus are in the 5th dimension. This amazed me; first of all, it suggests he’s up to date on modern physics (which considers time to be the 4th dimension), and secondly I suddenly got the sense that I could understand how he pictures God and Jesus. From what he said, it was like I could see how he envisions him/them as being right there, watching and listening, in a place (a dimension) we can’t see or sense, but from which our world is easily and completely accessible. I got a little shiver, feeling so strongly that I knew what his belief was like. (Now, I could have mistaken what he said, and I certainly could have mistaken what he actually believes, but it sure felt like a flash of comprehension.) Not that I share that belief – I don’t – but the moment of apparent understanding was pretty amazing.
Comment by: Rachel
1Arrggh! It is a major pet peeve of mine when Christians say, “We worship God, not Allah.” That is like saying, “We drink water, not agua.” Allah is simply the Arabic word for God and is used by all speakers of Arabic, including Arabic-speaking Christian and Jews. Granted, each of these three religions have somewhat differing views of God. But what the pastor said is simply not linguistically correct!
Phewww…glad I got that off my chest. :-)
Comment by: Rachel
2I think that is a pretty common practice in most Christian traditions, as an acknowledgment that those are “bonus items” not promised to us by God. Of course, I imagine that prosperity preachers like Joel Osteen don’t tell people to add that phrase since they really do teach that God promises wealth.
I usually do that and have for most of my life.
As I have become more involved in the global poverty movement and also as I have been struggling with a chronic health issue, I have found myself praying that way more and more. I’ve found myself really seeing and feeling and experiencing things in an intentional way and thus being more grateful for them. Like if I’m laying in bed I’ll thank God for the heating blanket and really think about the heating blanket and feel how warm it is and how soft it is and think how privileged I am to have such a luxury item. Then the focus is away from “I’m hurting today and it sucks” to being grateful. And as I result, I have found myself rarely if ever asking God for material things anymore because I realize how fortunate I am.
My whole concept of prayer has changed a lot over the last several years. It has become much less about asking for things and more about expressing gratitude, acknowledging suffering, connecting to my mission as a follower of Christ. I work in a school-based family center and often on the way to work, I will ask God to fill me with the love of Christ for whoever I encounter that day. Sometimes I’ll think about the parents and kids I work with and I’ll feel such overwhelming love for them, even the really challenging ones, that I’ll start to cry as I’m driving to work. I don’t even want to begin my day anymore without connecting to that source.
Comment by: Julie Maire
3I once asked a woman who had been both my department director and a spiritual woman whom I trusted: how do you know when you’ve crossed the line from faith to foolishness?
The scenario was: I’d just had my miracle baby, and we wanted to buy some property back in VA, near the cousins, so the infant I held would not grow up to ever feel “alone” in the world; I wanted him connected to my family. The property was expected to increase significantly in value as the metropolitan expressway made its first foray into the country, cutting the commute time from roling hills with 5 acre lots into the City of Richmond down to 1/2 hour from over 1 1/2 hours.
The glitch was this: I was the sole support of our family – my husband was in school. And my company underwent a reorganization that job elimiated the entire healthplan. At that time I had no guarantee of anything but 6 month severance.
We discussed and we prayed about the situation – and that is when I asked Lynette when prayer ends and foolishness begins. Her response was that people misinterpret the passage where “God will give you the desires of your heart” in a way that makes him seem like Santa Clause, but what the passage really means is this: the desires of a believers heart are placedthere by God. And if God placed the desires there, he will honor them by making a way to fulfill them. The desires of my heart were certainly God honoring – raise my son near his cousins so he would grow up knowing he was part of a larger family and have that support, comfort, and protection. So we went ahead and took out a second mortgage on our home and bought the property. And right after we shook hands on the deal (it was one of those country folk deals done on a handshake) I found out I had been selected out of 500 or so laid off nurses to work as a case manager from home.
The property still sits there undeveloped, our neighbors periodically call to see if we want to sell, but for now we are hanging on. It was going to be our dream home. Might not make it that far, but it has certainly turned into a good investment for us.
Comment by: Eliza
4Rachel, that’s really beautiful. I’m sorry that your health has been a problem. It sounds like your outlook has become more “glass half full”, thankful for what you have, rather than “glass half empty”, wishing the glass could be topped off.
Julie Marie, I’m glad it worked out, & is turning into a good investment! It sounds like it was a scary time, & a difficult decision, but you were in good hands.
Comment by: Eliza
5Rachel wrote:
Me too!
I understood him to mean, “The God that Moslems worship is not the one true God” – is that any less linguistically offensive? ;-)
Again, I’ve always figured it was the same God, but also recognized that presented problems (one side, or the other, or both, had to have misunderstood Him or been misled, if Cs and Ms were actually worshiping the same God). Several people here have (as I recall) said in the past that they see all religions as worshiping the same God, & John Shelby Spong says something like that in several of his books – that Jesus is one “door” to God, but there are others.
What I found interesting here is that I couldn’t come up with a coherent argument for why the God of one Abrahamic religion wouldn’t be the God of another Abrahamic religion. (Not a big surprise, I’m an outsider to all of them.) The pastor provided one such explanation, which expanded my horizons (in a weird way).
Comment by: benjamin ady
6Rachel–I found the whole “Alla” comment annoying for the same reasons. I got somewhat interested in linguistics and bible translation for a while and was fascinated to learn that the whole question of how to translate “God” has often created big controversy/strife and also can have long term repercussions on the development of the christian church in a new language/people group. It’s really fascinating to me because of course the translators have to decide whether to use some already existing local word with all it’s already existing connotation and denotation from the local not-Christian religion/tradition, or they may have to choose among several words, or they may have to make up a new word (like the English translators did with “baptism”–that is, they may have to transliterate). I find this amazingly intriguing in the way it touches the heart of the question of the portability/importability of chrisianity and what really *is* christianity anyway–i mean which are the essential bits and which are the clothes which can be changed to match local styles?
John of course in chapter one uses (from what I understand, correct me if I’m wrong) the greek formerly non-christian pagan philosophical construct of “logos” and, TADA, transports Jesus right into that concept. I think that is pretty freaking kewl. Paul does the same sort of thing at Mars Hill with the whole “unknown god” altar–He’s like “oh, I know who this is–let me tell you about him”.
I rather prefer the christians, for instance, who are living in the middle east and practicing a radical sort of christian/muslim meld thing where they follow the five pillars and so forth but they are actually christians but they attend mosque. I should track down that article I read it was fascinating–I think it was a group of completely awesome crazy christian missionaries.
Comment by: Eliza
7Interesting! Yet it was the same for us, too, though it happened a long time ago. We use “God” (or Lord) for all the different names/terms used in the Hebrew and Greek books – YHWH, Adonai, El, Elohim, Theos, etc – yet “God” comes from English’s Germanic roots, from a sequence of words which referred to pagan deities, including “got” in Old High German. (Now “Gott” in modern German.)
In English, “god” in all lower case (singular or plural) still refers to other god/s (pagan, of course), but it’s understood to refer to the one true god (of Christianity) when the “g” is capitalized. (I know you all know this. I’m just trying to point out that one word can have different meanings, depending on context & on assumptions & on historical use of that word in certain ways.)
Comment by: ncxian
8That sounds like a really neat experience, Eliza I guess it pays, sometimes, to wear your empathy hat!
I think you probably were understanding where he was coming from properly. I think most Christians, perhaps most theists of whatever stripe, have an understanding of a God who is in a place that is here, but not exactly here. The analogy to another dimension works for me too, I think.
I recently read a Discover magazine article about a physicist who studies other dimensions. She believes there are probably at least 10. It was interesting to me that one reason scientists believe there are other dimensions is because gravity doesn’t behave exactly the way it ought to in all circumstances (re: planetary bodies and such, I think). So I guess gravity really is just a theory!
Comment by: ncxian
9About gratititude in prayer:
Several years ago, there was a buzz about keeping gratitude journals. I think Oprah was into it, maybe. I understand it may come out of the Quaker tradition. Anyway, I tried it for several months and the results were really pretty amazing. I am a naturally positive person anyway, so I didn’t think it would do much. But as I wrote each night the things I was grateful for, it really helped me see how good I really had it. At the time, I was a new stay-at-home parent which, in my experience, is an invitation for each of a pair of spouses to begin to under-value what the other does! It helped me get through that (and, though he doesn’t know it, helped my husband get through it too).
I usually think of prayer as something that is designed to change the way WE look at something. The gratitude prayer is an example of that. However, I have trouble understanding intercessory prayer–what could I say that God doesn’t already know, and why would God change his/her mind based upon my opinion of the matter?
Comment by: Stephan
10A quick story about prayer…
I have a friend from church who is currently serving in Iraq with the national guard. He was supposed to come home in March, but has been extended (yuck). His wife tends to be a rather nervous person by nature, but seems to have real peace about what is going on.
She was talking a few weeks ago with her niece, who is about 10 years old. He niece asked if she worried about Tim, and she answered that she had peace that Tim was going to be fine and would come home soon. Her niece responded that she knew why she felt that way – because she had been praying that Tim would be safe and that Anne would have peace. Aren’t little kids great?!?
I know that I am incredibly blessed with the wealth that I have, and when I thank God for that blessing I ask Him to make me a blessing to others through it. This is my greatest desire, and one I try to instill in my children.
Comment by: Stephan
11Regarding the whole God/Allah thing, I believe, as Eliza pointed out, that there is only one God, and any attempt to reach God, whether it be through Allah, Yahweh, a tree or anything else, is an attempt to reach the one true God. I believe that anyone who sincerely seeks truth will find it eventually.
That is not to say that I believe the picture of God painted in the Koran is accurate, but (I have said this before) I do not believe my picture of God is entirely accurate either.
I believe the prayers of a Muslim who is earnestly seeking God are more likely to reach Him than the prayers of a Christian who is seeking power and wealth.
If anyone has the phone number of the blasphemy police, now might be a good time to dial it…
Comment by: Eliza
12Could anyone help explain for me the difference between “try to pray” and “pray”? (Does “try” mean the person stopped without completing a full prayer thought? Or doesn’t know how to do it? Or doesn’t believe in God enough to make a connection? Or something else?) Thanks…
Comment by: Stephan
13Eliza, personally I don’t think there is a difference. As Yoda would say, “Try not! Do! Or do not! There is no try!”
I would guess he is referring to people who pray for the wrong reason, or to the wrong god, assuming their prayers will not be heard or answered. I think this is a very narrow view of God and of prayer, but, as we have seen, a narrow view is to be expected in this class.
It is possible, perhaps even likely, that prayers prayed out of selfish desire will not be answered, and maybe this would be one meaning of “trying to pray”.
Maybe “praying without sincerity” is synonymous with “trying to pray”.
Comment by: Helen
14Eliza wrote:
lol – I love this opening!
I think the usual answer given comes from here: “they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men.” – the problem is the motive of the Pharisees; they prayed in public to be seen by men. Jesus often spoken in hyperbole (extremes) – so I am told; so he was being extreme in saying pray in secret, the point being, don’t pray in public to show off how righteous you are. Not, don’t ever pray in public, period. Jesus himself prayed in public according to the Bible – that would be a reason to think he didn’t mean don’t ever pray in public, period.
Good point about taking passages out of context. This is a very common practice in some Christian circles (unfortunately).
Probably a wise decision ;-) (not to point it out, I mean; but praying in the bathroom might also be, in view of this)
This seems a little formal to me in view of him saying earlier that prayer is just talking to God.
So when he does it or his text does it, the Bible is being treated like the Word of God, but when you do it you’re treating it like a comic book. Maybe it’s because you’re an atheist and so you just don’t know how to do it the right way.
There’s a whole branch of Christianity called the ‘word-faith’ movement which sees this as a guarantee and whenever a prayer isn’t answered it’s because the pray-er lacked faith. Most other Christians figure God makes up his own mind whether to answer prayer or not and has not given weird guarantees like this. But as you’ve noted, God giving “yes”, “no” or “wait” answers raises other questions.
It seems like he was a bit defensive in this particular class about your questions, what with the comic book comment then this. Oh well.
I’m glad his description was helpful. I think you did understand it how he meant it.
I think he was just being demeaning, calling prayers of people who aren’t real Christians (or maybe aren’t Christians at all) ‘trying to pray’ rather than ‘praying’.
Comment by: Eliza
15I wasn’t clear; this pastor never said “trying to pray”, he only said “pray” (including when talking about Moslems). But I’ve heard or read of people who say they were “trying to pray” but “it didn’t work” (were they too distracted, or not in the right mood, or just didn’t feel there was a connection?). I think I’ve also heard/read some people saying that non-believers might “try to pray” (implication being that it didn’t or wouldn’t work). So I was just wondering the details of what that might mean…
Comment by: Elisabeth
16I was doing some research a few months ago about prayer…I had been feeling neglected by God. And then I ran across an interesting point that I had never thought of before (I’m not sure if it is true or not but it really go me thinking)…it was along the lines of: God will answer your prayers but there are certain things that he can’t (won’t) do, such as interfere with someone else’s free will. So for example, if you pray for him to make Henry to fall in love with you, it probably isn’t too good of a request because you would be asking God to control Henry’s free will to NOT fall in love with you. It was interesting…I had never really even thought about that.
Comment by: ncxian
17If you think of praying as just saying some words outloud, obviously that is not too hard to be successful at. However, there are times when what religious people are after is a meditative state that “opens” them to “hear God” or maybe, “be with” God. And of course, that requires time, the right kind of atmosphere, usually the exercise of certain disciplines like breathing, meditation on phrases or images, and the like. Depending on the circumstances, one is more or less successful at this kind of prayer. So I guess you might say you tried to pray but couldn’t.
John of the Cross, a Christian mystic from the 1500s, is famous for his exploration of “the dark night of the soul”. He says “The dark night is when those persons lose all the pleasure that they once experienced in their devotional life. This happens because God wants to purify them and move them on to greater heights.” He explains that when you are first converted, God gives you all kinds of “spiritual consolation” to nurture you, but at some point, you have to grow out of that phase, and withdrawal of spiritual consolation is how God encourages it. (It’s a whole book–or two–so I can’t summarize it too well in a little bit of space).
Of course, John experienced this after eons in prison. He makes the rest of us look like prayer whiners!
Comment by: Helen
18Eliza, sorry, I misunderstood.
The only time I can think of people saying “I tried to pray” of themselves is when they were overcome with emotion and so it was hard to concentrate on praying. I don’t think it includes any connotation of “whether God hears me depends on me doing it well”. It was more a comment on how distracted they were emotionally, so they couldn’t put sentences together well (even in their head) without being distracted. I suppose this might also include when a tragedy has made someone question God and so it is hard for them to want to talk to God/believe he is there.
I expect what NCxian said is another reason they say it.
Elizabeth, I saw that on Bruce Almighty ;-) (when Bruce wanted to make his girlfriend want to be with him again after he treated her badly, but messing with free will was not allowed)
Comment by: benjamin ady
19Ncxian–was interested by your comments on gratitude/prayer. Dr. Martin Seligman and friends at the center for positive psychology in PA (at, for instance, reflectivehappiness.com) did a controlled randomized trial for several exercises which purportedly increase happiness and the one which has the strongest long term positive effect on happiness levels was a gratitude type exercise (it also touched on locus of control, I guess) in which participants at the end of each day write down three positive things that happened and *why* they happened. I thought that was kinda kewl.
Comment by: ncxian
20Yes, that is cool! I’ll have to check out the site and see what was up with the “why” part. I didn’t intentionally say why, but I guess it was often assumed in my description of being grateful for something that happened that day.
Comment by: Rachel
21Here is one of my favorite quotes on the subject of prayer:
“It is dangerous to pray, for an authentic spirituality is subversive of injustice.” – Desmond Tutu
Comment by: Eliza
22Rachel, I’m trying to parse Tutu’s quote but can’t. Could you explain what it means? (Thanks!)
Comment by: Helen
23NCxian, I think the ‘why’ is to help you see that some of the good things were brought about by you and so you can do them again and have a role in influencing your own life to be happier.
Admittedly that’s a guess based on reading some positive psychology books.
One of the tendencies they are probably trying to counteract is that we often look at our lives in an unbalanced way, noticing what went wrong and how we had a role in it, but overlooking what went right and how we had a role in that.
I really like positive psychology. Finally psychologists have realized it works so much better to say “Let’s find your strengths and play to them” than “let’s try to analyze and overcome your weaknesses”.
Tying this in with prayer: I think prayer can be either a help or a hindrance. Gratitude prayers can very helpfully remind us of things to be happy about. But if prayer turns into an unhelpful sort of obsessive introspection, then to me that’s a hindrance. I know there were times (before I quit praying) when I just didn’t want to go there because me in my head was not a good place to be.
Comment by: Rachel
24Eliza, the quote was taken from Tutu’s book “God Has A Dream.” As I understand him, he is saying that authentic spirituality means connecting with the dream of God and prayer is a means of making that connection. As we catch a glimpse of God’s vision of peace and justice, we become increasingly discontented with the status quo. We yearn for something better and we are driven to action on behalf of that dream. True spirituality will always result in transformation.
I think that in Tutu’s statement there is also an implied critique of passive, prosperous and comfortable spirituality. I imagine that he would also state that a spirituality which is NOT subversive of injustice is not authentic.
Comment by: benjamin ady
25Eliza, here’s more context for the quote, if that helps.
From “God Has a Dream” by Desmond Tutu, archbishop of Cape Town and nobel peace prize recipient. I’ve been occasionally startled by the way Mr. Tutu’s words match up with my own experience/reality. There’s a great quote from him at the end of Red Dust, the movie, which is one of the better movies I’ve seen in the last five years (warning: graphic violence–but it’s portrayed in a very real world, how do we deal with this level of violence–what does it mean and say about us as a race and us as individuals way)
Comment by: Rachel
26I agree, Helen. And I think that connects back to what Desmond Tutu is saying – prayer that truly results in a connection with God should pull us out of our obsessive introspection, out of our comfort zones.
Comment by: benjamin ady
27oh goofy me I was writing my stuff about the quote at the same time as rachel, and she hadn’t posted hers yet. oh well. she said it a lot better than I could have anyway. at least she didn’t get a prime number while I didn’t get one. That would have been just too unfair.
Comment by: Doreen
28Years ago, as a child, I wondered what all the fuss was about “no prayer in schools.” I knew students could pray in school at any time and knew many did often, particularly before exams!
Comment by: jim henderson
29Eliza
I admire the fact that you were interested enough in this mans experience to be open in spite of his obvious lack of openess to yours.
I think the flash of insight you had is what I’ve experienced when I have talked to atheists who have somehow gotten through to me about how they experience reality.
Your reports are filled with very important observations and the details you provide are amazing.
Thanks again
Comment by: jim henderson
30I quit worrying about praying about 10 years ago. I find the whole process confusing and at times unreal. I still pray . I just dont worry about what it means or doesn’t mean anymore.
I dont want to be responsible for making my God look like a success in the eyes of people who don’t think he/she exists.
I don’t care anymore about trying to understand how it works or even if it works. I just pray when and if I feel like it
Comment by: Helen
31Jim if it’s ok to ask – about how often do you feel like praying (and therefore pray)? And about how often did you used to pray before you moved to praying when you feel like it?
Comment by: Rachel
32If anyone is interested, here is a recent piece on prayer by Jim Wallis. His understanding of prayer is similar to that of Desmond Tutu; in fact, Wallis mentions Tutu in this piece.
Jim Wallis: Revolutionary Prayer
Comment by: Eliza
33Rachel, thanks for that link – very interesting. Wallis talks about 2 different aspects of prayer – is he talking about 2 kinds of prayer, like 2 ways to pray & 2 purposes, or 2 effects of prayer (from the same way of praying)? He talks about silence & listening, but also about recalling how Tutu would pray (meaning, out loud, in public??) Wallis says:
and then this:
Comment by: Eliza
34Jim, thanks for your comments. I don’t think I’ve conveyed in these writeups how personable this pastor can be; he uses humor, and brings in stories about his own life, & is approachable. I suspect that also helped me feel like I could understand his beliefs. His teachings sound divisive and judgmental but his demeanor isn’t that way (though a member of his church who has strayed might see a different side).
The way people have described prayer here sounds more like what I’d imagined, & not like the pastor described it as “a command; we need to pray whether or not we feel like it.” It sounds like trying to pray when you don’t feel like it might feel like “trying to pray”, not like a connection.
Comment by: Rachel
35As I understand it, Wallis is saying that often we have prayer backwards; our prayers begin with telling God what we want, not listening to find out what God wants. The silence and listening means connecting to God and hearing his will, or his dream, as both Tutu and McLaren like to say. The listening comes first, then the out loud or public prayer becomes an affirmation of God’s purposes. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. (Matt. 6:10)
Desmond Tutu believed that God’s justice would ultimately triumph, even if all outward evidence was to the contrary, and his public prayers were an affirmation of that belief. As Jim Wallis loves to say, “Hope is believing against the evidence and then watching the evidence change.”
So I think that in reference to the two types of prayer, Wallis saying that both are important but we need to get them in the right order: listen first, speak second. As Abe Lincoln said, we should worry about whether we are on God’s side, not try to get him on ours. What a contrast with the public civic prayers of today! We do whatever our leaders determine is in our national self interest, then ask God to bless it. It disturbed me so greatly to hear George Bush in his recent State of the Union speech say, “Our cause in the world is right.” Says who?
Comment by: Rachel
36In “God’s Politics”, Wallis tells about a confrontation between Tutu and the South African Security Police. The police burst into St. George’s Cathedral where Tutu was preaching and lined the walls of the church, carrying tape recorders, ready to record any subversive statements Tutu would dare to make.
After meeting their eyes with his in a steely gaze, the church leader acknowledged their power (“You are powerful, very powerful”) but reminded them that he served a higher power greater than their political authority (“But I serve a God who cannot be mocked!”). Then in the most extraordinary challenge to political tyranny I have ever witnessed, Archbishop Desmond Tutu told the representatives of South African apartheid, “Since you have already lost, I invite you today to come and join the winning side!” He said it with a smile on his face and enticing warmth in his invitation, but with a clarity and boldness that took everyone’s breath away.
The congregation’s response was electric. From a cowering fear of the heavily armed security forces that surrounded the cathedral and greatly outnumbered the band of worshipers, we literally leaped to our feet, shouted the praises of God and began dancing. We danced out of the cathedral to meet the awaiting police and military forces of apartheid who hardly expected a confrontation with dancing worshipers. Not knowing what else to do, they backed up to provide the space for the people of faith to dance for freedom in the streets of South Africa.
Comment by: Kathleen
37I know my response is long after the discussion here has died down, but when Eliza’s archives were linked after her interview with Jim, I found a bunch that I’d missed the first time around, and I’ve been thinking a lot about the nature of prayer lately. Quite simply, I don’t understand how it’s supposed to work – it’s the one facet of theology/religion that I really can’t find a satisfactory answer to. Most of the rest of it, I either understand why it is the way it is, or at least why it’s supposed to be the way it’s supposed to be.
I was taught that there are 5 types of prayer, and there’s an acronym for them, but I can’t remember the acronym, so I can’t remember all the types – something like, Praise, Thanksgiving, Petition, maybe Intercession, and one more? It had better start with a vowel, or no acronym would ever work. (I don’t remember imprecatory being one of them!) I guess that Petition is the one that doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. I’d heard that a lot of people add “if it be your will” (which doesn’t sound overly formal to me, as someone mentioned, if you just change the wording – “if you don’t mind,” or “if you want to” – the same way you’d be polite talking to anyone else, though differently motivated, I think), which makes sense to me, though I was never taught to do so, as a Catholic. Whether you add it or not, though, I don’t understand how asking God for something is going to change whether it happens or not, completely beyond the question of whose prayers get answered and whose don’t. I mean, if we’re talking about God – well, if it’s His will, it’s going to happen anyway, right? If it’s not his will, can my asking for it change anything? I know the OT has examples of people changing God’s mind, but that doesn’t seem to mesh with the conventional NT understanding. I do pray prayers of petition, all the time, and I do think that God hears me, but intellectually, I can’t understand how my prayers could make any difference, given God as I understand Him. I also admit, whether it’s right or not, that when I’m praying for something that really important, I’ll pray “God, make it your will that X.”
I once heard, and I can’t remember in what context, but I think it may have been a blessing, something like, “…may God hear you when you pray, and when you try to pray but but can’t, may He understand what you wanted, anyway.” That’s not quite accurate, but it was a view of trying to pray that suggests it’s maybe an unavoidable failure, but not one that God can’t remedy.
I don’t know how theologically precise this is, but I’ve always understood that when Muslims worship Allah (read: God), they’re worshipping God the Father – not the triune God, but still the same God as Christians and Jews.
One of the priests at my church at home used to say that “I have no time to pray” was no excuse – anytime you get stuck at that long light at the intersection of [the two main streets in town], you had plenty of time to pray! Personally, I try to set aside time to pray every night before bed (though if I’m really tired or not in the mood, all I’ll force myself to get out is a quick “Thanks for everything”), and I’ll pray spontaneously when the mood strikes me, when I have something to say, and often when I hear an ambulance. (Interestingly, I just realized I haven’t done so since I got to Italy (I’m studying abroad) – I guess because the sirens are different, I don’t have the same instinctive understanding of what they are, even though I obviously know.)
This is silly, but if I ever happen to think that “Jesus is always with you” or “God is always watching you” while I’m in the shower, my reaction is “Can’t He just wait outside until I’m dressed?”
I’ll just say that when I pray on an airplane, I pray to God and St. Christopher, and I’ll leave it at that :-D
Sorry for such a long response on a dead thread!
Comment by: Helen
38Hi Kathleen, thanks for your comments. I’m glad I’m not the only one who doesn’t understand prayer!