Yes, I really liked that John Piper laughed when he heard it. I think people who aren’t Christians would like Christians a lot better if that was their reaction more often.
Yes, that probably is John Calvin – since he looks like the guy on this wikipedia page.
I really liked that John Piper laughed when he heard it. I think people who aren’t Christians would like Christians a lot better if that was their reaction more often.
Yes, a humble reaction is not newsworthy, is it, so we don’t get much John Piper-esque behavior on CNN!
I have a bit of a problem with the underlying theology. I mean …. yes, I guess people are bad. But it seems like evangelicals and reformed, and perhaps christians in general, do two rather unlikable things with this fact: 1.They overemphasize it. and 2.They give a lot of lip service to it without exploring it’s actual terrifying and horriific reality, which is probably actually necessary if we want to make any progress.
BICBW
The funniest part of this Friday video for me is that the joke goes right over my head!
The juxtaposition of the song & preaching is funny, & the guy has funny expressions in some of the photos, but I have no idea who any of the people are, & a glance at Wikipedia’s page on John Piper doesn’t help me figure out where he sits on the “people are bad v. people are good” meter. Ha, ha! That cracks me up, because it clearly means something to others here.
(Whether he’s bad or not, he does seem like a nice guy…)
Just a little help on John Piper. He’s a sort of an off the deep end extreme calvinist. One of the major points of calvinism is “utter depravity”, so he would be way over on the “people are bad” side, as far as I can tell. I personally think calvinism at it’s extremes is a bit completely nuts (can I say “a bit completely”?) I’ve heard John Piper say (and I’ve only heard a couple sermons by him) “The sixth point of calvinism is ‘This *is* the best of all possible worlds’” which seems to me to be a kind of off-one’s-rocker thing to say. On the other hand, I’ve only ever heard nice things about him–that is, while I think he might *say* that it’s more important to be right than kind, I suspect his actions would indicate that he actually believes and practices the reverse.
Don’t feel bad, Eliza. I meant to but forgot to ask, when I asked if the old guy was Calvin, who all the other people were. Does anybody know? Since the folks who made the clip were knowledgeable enough to stick Calvin is, I figured these other guys might be other Reformed theologian/preachers, or something. It looks like a family joke to me.
My impression of Piper is that he is a nice person and conservative Christian thinker/speaker. Popular opinion would say that is an oxymoron, right? That’s what Helen and I were talking about earlier. I think most folks here have expressed that they know nice conservative Christians (heck, some have been, or are, nice, conservative Christians!). They just seem to get buried in the attention given to the Falwellian folks.
I don’t know anything about Piper and his theology, but I read at Wikipedia that he is of the Reformed tradition. You can go to wikipedia and look up “Calvinism” and get everything you ever wanted to know but were afraid to ask about total depravity. (“utter depravity” doesn’t work–we always say that but I think we get it from murder mystery tv).
This discussion sent me scurrying to my copy of A Concise History of Christian Doctrine. (I know you all get sick of hearing about it, but it really is a great reference book!). I was interested to learn that Calvinism (within the Reformed tradition and as adapted in part by John Wesley and others) is perhaps the forerunner of something that you have heard from many Christians here including me. Gonsalez puts it,
the theme of salvation as a holistic work of God bringing not only individuals, but all of society and all of creation to their intended end.
This incorporates two things you may have heard said here. Okay, you may have heard me say. That the telescopic focus on getting people to “say the prayer” is short-sighted (if not just wrong), and that our purpose as the Body of Christ is to further the kingdom of God on earth–MTWABP. My personal theology has evolved over time, but it looks like I may have unwittingly picked up some of this in my upbringing in a Methodist community, whose founder is Wesley.
Eliza – I didn’t really “get it” either because I never heard of John Piper. But in just the few seconds I listened to him, I knew I didn’t agree with his focus on our “badness.”
One of the parts of my theology paper I am struggling with the most is the concept of original sin (and therefore, our “badness”). I don’t like the notion even 2 week old babies are full of sin. I prefer to think we are all born with the capacity to sin, to which my professor asked, “at one point does the capacity ‘turn on’ – at a certain age?”
Since the folks who made the clip were knowledgeable enough to stick Calvin in, I figured these other guys might be other Reformed theologian/preachers, or something. It looks like a family joke to me.
Same here, ncxian. I knew John Piper and figured the old guy had to be Calvin, but I didn’t recognize any of the others.
I appreciate that John Piper is by all accounts a kind and gracious person. But personally I am not much of a fan, as I know him primarily as a founder of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.
Never heard of CBMW. But this, at the end of their list of affirmations, seems a bit arrogant–a slightly gentler way of saying “Do it our way, or you’ll all be miserable”
We are convinced that a denial or neglect of these principles will lead to increasingly destructive consequences in our families, our churches, and the culture at large.
I think CBMW was formed to oppose the trend towards full equality of men and women in the church.
Yes, they were formed as an alternative to the group Christians for Biblical Equality. The egalitarian view has been gaining ground within evangelicalism for the last 10 or 15 years and the people at CBMW see that as a threat.
I know I’m late to this post, but I’ve just noticed ncxian’s question.
The guys responsible for Piper being ‘bad’ would be Jonathan Edwards and Daniel Fuller. Fuller is still alive and wrote the interesting ‘Unity of the Bible’.
Doreen- The important thing to realize here is what the apostle Paul wrote in Romans 7:18, “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.” This is the nature we all have. Everything God made was good but we have are all born with a tendency to do bad and realizing this is what some have called the first step towards spiritual maturity. May God continuously reveal to us what we are apart from his grace. Our pride may get in the way but it is in our weakness we are made strong.
Children who are born with this nature inherited from Adam take a while longer, God knows how long for each individual, before they know good and evil. Jesus said of them,”Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven”(Matthew 19:14).
Comment by: ncxian
1This is pretty funny. I like Piper’s take on it–he thinks it’s funny too.
I’m guessing the portrait of the old guy is Calvin? (Who would be the guy most responsible for Piper being “bad”?)
Comment by: Keith
2Good post, Helen.
Comment by: Helen
3Yes, I really liked that John Piper laughed when he heard it. I think people who aren’t Christians would like Christians a lot better if that was their reaction more often.
Yes, that probably is John Calvin – since he looks like the guy on this wikipedia page.
Comment by: ncxian
4Yes, a humble reaction is not newsworthy, is it, so we don’t get much John Piper-esque behavior on CNN!
Comment by: Helen
5Yes, maybe that’s the problem – it’s not newsworthy.
It should be though, if it’s unusual ;-)
Comment by: benjamin ady
6I have a bit of a problem with the underlying theology. I mean …. yes, I guess people are bad. But it seems like evangelicals and reformed, and perhaps christians in general, do two rather unlikable things with this fact: 1.They overemphasize it. and 2.They give a lot of lip service to it without exploring it’s actual terrifying and horriific reality, which is probably actually necessary if we want to make any progress.
BICBW
Comment by: benjamin ady
7not to overanalyze the friday video or anything
Comment by: Rachel
8I agree, Benjamin. I think they overemphasize the sin nature/bad part of people and underemphasize the made in the image of God/good part of people.
Comment by: Helen
9Benjamin, I agree too.
Comment by: Eliza
10The funniest part of this Friday video for me is that the joke goes right over my head!
The juxtaposition of the song & preaching is funny, & the guy has funny expressions in some of the photos, but I have no idea who any of the people are, & a glance at Wikipedia’s page on John Piper doesn’t help me figure out where he sits on the “people are bad v. people are good” meter. Ha, ha! That cracks me up, because it clearly means something to others here.
(Whether he’s bad or not, he does seem like a nice guy…)
Comment by: benjamin ady
11Eliza,
Just a little help on John Piper. He’s a sort of an off the deep end extreme calvinist. One of the major points of calvinism is “utter depravity”, so he would be way over on the “people are bad” side, as far as I can tell. I personally think calvinism at it’s extremes is a bit completely nuts (can I say “a bit completely”?) I’ve heard John Piper say (and I’ve only heard a couple sermons by him) “The sixth point of calvinism is ‘This *is* the best of all possible worlds’” which seems to me to be a kind of off-one’s-rocker thing to say. On the other hand, I’ve only ever heard nice things about him–that is, while I think he might *say* that it’s more important to be right than kind, I suspect his actions would indicate that he actually believes and practices the reverse.
Comment by: ncxian
12Don’t feel bad, Eliza. I meant to but forgot to ask, when I asked if the old guy was Calvin, who all the other people were. Does anybody know? Since the folks who made the clip were knowledgeable enough to stick Calvin is, I figured these other guys might be other Reformed theologian/preachers, or something. It looks like a family joke to me.
My impression of Piper is that he is a nice person and conservative Christian thinker/speaker. Popular opinion would say that is an oxymoron, right? That’s what Helen and I were talking about earlier. I think most folks here have expressed that they know nice conservative Christians (heck, some have been, or are, nice, conservative Christians!). They just seem to get buried in the attention given to the Falwellian folks.
I don’t know anything about Piper and his theology, but I read at Wikipedia that he is of the Reformed tradition. You can go to wikipedia and look up “Calvinism” and get everything you ever wanted to know but were afraid to ask about total depravity. (“utter depravity” doesn’t work–we always say that but I think we get it from murder mystery tv).
This discussion sent me scurrying to my copy of A Concise History of Christian Doctrine. (I know you all get sick of hearing about it, but it really is a great reference book!). I was interested to learn that Calvinism (within the Reformed tradition and as adapted in part by John Wesley and others) is perhaps the forerunner of something that you have heard from many Christians here including me. Gonsalez puts it,
This incorporates two things you may have heard said here. Okay, you may have heard me say. That the telescopic focus on getting people to “say the prayer” is short-sighted (if not just wrong), and that our purpose as the Body of Christ is to further the kingdom of God on earth–MTWABP. My personal theology has evolved over time, but it looks like I may have unwittingly picked up some of this in my upbringing in a Methodist community, whose founder is Wesley.
Comment by: Doreen
13Eliza – I didn’t really “get it” either because I never heard of John Piper. But in just the few seconds I listened to him, I knew I didn’t agree with his focus on our “badness.”
One of the parts of my theology paper I am struggling with the most is the concept of original sin (and therefore, our “badness”). I don’t like the notion even 2 week old babies are full of sin. I prefer to think we are all born with the capacity to sin, to which my professor asked, “at one point does the capacity ‘turn on’ – at a certain age?”
grrr, professors and their questions, lol
Comment by: Helen
14I recognized RC Sproul and John MacArthur in the photographs; I didn’t recognize anyone else.
John Piper and RC Sproul are Reformed Christians; John MacArthur isn’t Reformed but does agree with a lot of Reformed Christianity’s basic beliefs.
Comment by: Rachel
15Same here, ncxian. I knew John Piper and figured the old guy had to be Calvin, but I didn’t recognize any of the others.
I appreciate that John Piper is by all accounts a kind and gracious person. But personally I am not much of a fan, as I know him primarily as a founder of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.
Comment by: Helen
16Rachel, I didn’t know he was a founder of CBMW. I’m not surprised he’s a council member of it.
Comment by: benjamin ady
17Never heard of CBMW. But this, at the end of their list of affirmations, seems a bit arrogant–a slightly gentler way of saying “Do it our way, or you’ll all be miserable”
Comment by: Helen
18Benjamin, I think CBMW was formed to oppose the trend towards full equality of men and women in the church.
Comment by: Rachel
19Yes, they were formed as an alternative to the group Christians for Biblical Equality. The egalitarian view has been gaining ground within evangelicalism for the last 10 or 15 years and the people at CBMW see that as a threat.
Comment by: Doreen
20Oh no, just say “Biblical Womanhood” and I start screaming….
Comment by: benjamin ady
21Biblical Womanhood, Biblical Womanhood, Biblical Womanhood (god, sorry, I just couldn’t resist) =).
Comment by: Rachel
22Hey, Benjamin…Biblical Manhood, Biblical Manhood, Biblical Manhood :-P
Comment by: Rachel
23And yes, that WAS a feminist Jedi mind trick!
Comment by: Helen
24Rachel, I was going to say to Benjamin Wild At Heart, Wild At Heart, Wild At Heart ;-)
Comment by: graham
25I know I’m late to this post, but I’ve just noticed ncxian’s question.
The guys responsible for Piper being ‘bad’ would be Jonathan Edwards and Daniel Fuller. Fuller is still alive and wrote the interesting ‘Unity of the Bible’.
Comment by: Helen
26Thanks graham!
Comment by: Mark Stephens
27Doreen- The important thing to realize here is what the apostle Paul wrote in Romans 7:18, “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.” This is the nature we all have. Everything God made was good but we have are all born with a tendency to do bad and realizing this is what some have called the first step towards spiritual maturity. May God continuously reveal to us what we are apart from his grace. Our pride may get in the way but it is in our weakness we are made strong.
Children who are born with this nature inherited from Adam take a while longer, God knows how long for each individual, before they know good and evil. Jesus said of them,”Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven”(Matthew 19:14).