I think the same person that does the “donut” and “bokay” signs also does most church signs. A gifted individual, to be sure, who’s wit makes me smile. Here’s to you, oh sage of the block letters!
actually at some level it worked from a marketing perspective, didn’t it? You remembered it, mentioned it to others, etc.
I’ve noticed that churches seem to have gently annoyingly dorky signs on their readerboards as well.
Of course, I’ve also noticed that sermons tend to have … obviously untrue, untenable statements in them.
but as to the real question–why did they hate jesus? Didn’t they hate him because they experienced him as being dangerious to their (relatively puny and pathetic) power? They hated him because they were afraid. Aren’t hatred and fear intimately related?
Benjamin, you’re right – I did remember it. Not in a positive way though – it didn’t make me want to go to that church!
I agree with you about fear and hatred; I’m convinced they’re closely related. I loved that quote from Amazing Grace:
“When they stop being afraid, they rediscover their compassion.”
I also agree that if people hated Jesus, there was in fact a reason. “Without reason” is an expression, I think, meaning their level of hatred seemed unreasonably strong.
But it still looked funny on the sign!
I agree about sermons too; that’s why I’ve been avoiding them lately.
The other option is to accept there will be things in them I probably find untenable/untrue and look for what I do find true or helpful in them. I’ve gone that route also, but it’s not my current route of choice, most of the time.
Have just done a search for “without reason” on an online Bible site and found the following:
Job 2:3
Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”
Psalm 35:19
Let not those gloat over me who are my enemies without cause; let not those who hate me without reason maliciously wink the eye.
Psalm 38:19
Many are those who are my vigorous enemies; those who hate me without reason are numerous.
Psalm 69:4
Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal.
John 15:25
But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
JG, this is interesting. Is it perhaps rooted in the sort of culture that is … based on a system where you rub my back, and so I rub yours, and we cater to the rich and powerful, and in turn they take care of us, and conversely, vengeance is part of the culture–you kill one of mine, I kill one of yours. so to hate without reason within such a system is to hate/want to kill when there was no act from the one who is hated to incite such vengeance/hatred.
When I hear the phrase, “hating him without reason” in regards to Jesus, I would think that the sermon is taken from John 15:25 cited above.
Many people within the Sanhedrin, and Herod’s household/government were alarmed and threatened by Jesus. Jesus had a popular following. He challenged the status quo. He allegedly or apparently broke the Sabbath and said things like: “the Sabbath was made for humans, not humans for the Sabbath.” He said he could rebuild the temple in three days if/when it was torn down.
There were reasons for hating Jesus, but not justifiable reasons, such as: they hated Him because He hated them. Since Jesus didn’t hate them, but challenged them, their hatred towards Him had not been reciprocal. Therefore, in my mind it was “without (good or justificable) reason.”
Is there ever a “good” reason to hate? That almost sounds like an oxymoron.
You appear to interpret the church sign as if it said without ANY reason.
I think it useful to consider what “reason” actually means or rather the range of meanings it can have. A google search on “reason definition” works well.
The first definition listed reads:
a rational motive for a belief or action; “the reason that war was declared”; “the grounds for their declaration”
an explanation of the cause of some phenomenon; “the reason a steady state was never reached was that the back pressure built up too slowly”
the capacity for rational thought or inference or discrimination; “we are told that man is endowed with reason and capable of distinguishing good from evil”
rationality: the state of having good sense and sound judgment; “his rationality may have been impaired”; “he had to rely less on reason than on rousing their emotions”
decide by reasoning; draw or come to a conclusion; “We reasoned that it was cheaper to rent than to buy a house”
cause: a justification for something existing or happening; “he had no cause to complain”; “they had good reason to rejoice”
argue: present reasons and arguments
a fact that logically justifies some premise or conclusion; “there is reason to believe he is lying”
think logically; “The children must learn to reason”
Needless to say my comment was to Helen – I agree with you save that I think it is using reason in a different sense of the word.
And of course, it is a translation so if anyone really want to study this expression as used in the Bible and pull it apart, they should consider what the meaning was in the original language.
Incidently I’m not supporting or criticisng use of the phrase on a church sign. I have mixed views on church signs and agree they can have a negative effect.
Incidently I’m not supporting or criticisng use of the phrase on a church sign. I have mixed views on church signs and agree they can have a negative effect.
I have never been very impressed with Church signs/ advertisement reader boards. I remember seeing one that said: COme visit us on Sunday: We’re casual, comfortable, …and something else I forget. I don’t think I’d take a church too seriously if they were promoting the “fact” that they were comfortable or casual. But that’s because I look for something else in a congregation.
When a church/congregation resorts to using soundbites to get across a message, that message is bound to be trivial or a cliche. No depth to respond to.
Benjamin I agree with you in thinking their hate of Jesus was a consequence of the way things were in their culture.
JG – yes, I did interpret it as if it said “without any reason”. I think that’s a reasonable interpretation given that people reading it won’t necessarily know the context of it. If told you I went out without money I think you’d assume I meant without any money.
Pete, I agree with you that there’s a limit on what can be achieved with soundbites. Thanks for posting the link to your blog, by the way. I didn’t know you had one. I like the name of it!
You asked “Is there ever a good reason to hate? That almosts sounds like an oxymoron”
It seems to me that there *are* *great* reasons to hate sometimes. Where to start? I hate the gross injustice and extreme poverty in the world. I wish that I hated these things more than I do.
It seems to me that there *are* *great* reasons to hate sometimes. Where to start? I hate the gross injustice and extreme poverty in the world. I wish that I hated these things more than I do.
Yes, I would most definitely agree with you in your response.
I was meaning whether there is a “good hatred” of people. The people who worked towards his crucifixion didn’t just hate his ideas, or his presumption, or his critique of the status quo. They hated Him.
I’m wondering if there is a “good” kind of hatred of certain people, or if all hatred of people is wrong or bad, and the trick is to actually work on hating the things that thingize us: those things that render us things in contrast to us being people. I hope that wasn’t too esoteric; I wish I could say it plainer. The injustices you alluded to, the poverty, the racism, classism, sexism, and other “-isms” that render us objects rather than subjects, those are things worthy of our hatred so long as such hatred springs from a radical embrace and love of the people who are being oppressed, even when they participate in those “isms” with their wholehearted consent, as is so sadly often the case.
the whole “Is it right to hate people” is difficult, you’re right. Dr. Allender talks about hating people so much that we want to unexist them, not so that they no longer exist per se, but so that as the person they currently are unexists, they can become a new, totally different person whose life isn’t totally consumed with the hateful things the person they are now is doing. So for instance, it would have been nice if back in the day when I was living a mostly disastrous life, hurting myself and other people in fairly devastating ways–I hate the person I was then, and it could have been helpful, perhaps, if someone had loved the vision of who I could become enough, back then, to hate that person back then, when I was incapable of hating him, and … entered my life with both that intense hatred and that insane hope for and love for the person I could become, the person I was meant to be. Their interaction with me could have perhaps prevented a lot of grief.
JG – yes, I did interpret it as if it said “without any reason”. I think that’s a reasonable interpretation given that people reading it won’t necessarily know the context of it. If told you I went out without money I think you’d assume I meant without any money.
This is why I have misgivings about church signs of that nature.
But with your example, there is no confusion over the meaning of money, it has the same meaning in both contexts.
Whereas it is common knowledge that “reason” has more than one meaning or can be used in more than one way. I think it is unfortunate when we seize on one meaning and insist it must mean that and then accuse the other person of stupidity for saying it.
And of course in this case, it is not a phrase the individual church dreamt up. It is a simple quote from the Bible.
Comment by: Doreen
1That’s a really silly sign. Unless it’s intentional to get people to attend to hear the explanation of the silly sign, lol.
Comment by: Staci
2I think the same person that does the “donut” and “bokay” signs also does most church signs. A gifted individual, to be sure, who’s wit makes me smile. Here’s to you, oh sage of the block letters!
Comment by: benjamin ady
3Helen,
actually at some level it worked from a marketing perspective, didn’t it? You remembered it, mentioned it to others, etc.
I’ve noticed that churches seem to have gently annoyingly dorky signs on their readerboards as well.
Of course, I’ve also noticed that sermons tend to have … obviously untrue, untenable statements in them.
but as to the real question–why did they hate jesus? Didn’t they hate him because they experienced him as being dangerious to their (relatively puny and pathetic) power? They hated him because they were afraid. Aren’t hatred and fear intimately related?
Comment by: Helen
4Benjamin, you’re right – I did remember it. Not in a positive way though – it didn’t make me want to go to that church!
I agree with you about fear and hatred; I’m convinced they’re closely related. I loved that quote from Amazing Grace:
I also agree that if people hated Jesus, there was in fact a reason. “Without reason” is an expression, I think, meaning their level of hatred seemed unreasonably strong.
But it still looked funny on the sign!
I agree about sermons too; that’s why I’ve been avoiding them lately.
The other option is to accept there will be things in them I probably find untenable/untrue and look for what I do find true or helpful in them. I’ve gone that route also, but it’s not my current route of choice, most of the time.
Comment by: Helen
5Doreen – I doubt it was intentional.
Staci – I don’t know who does church signs but I agree that the evidence indicates some of the people who do them aren’t super-smart.
Comment by: JG
6Have just done a search for “without reason” on an online Bible site and found the following:
Job 2:3
Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”
Psalm 35:19
Let not those gloat over me who are my enemies without cause; let not those who hate me without reason maliciously wink the eye.
Psalm 38:19
Many are those who are my vigorous enemies; those who hate me without reason are numerous.
Psalm 69:4
Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal.
John 15:25
But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
Comment by: Helen
7Thanks JG.
Comment by: benjamin ady
8JG, this is interesting. Is it perhaps rooted in the sort of culture that is … based on a system where you rub my back, and so I rub yours, and we cater to the rich and powerful, and in turn they take care of us, and conversely, vengeance is part of the culture–you kill one of mine, I kill one of yours. so to hate without reason within such a system is to hate/want to kill when there was no act from the one who is hated to incite such vengeance/hatred.
does that make sense?
Comment by: Pete S.
9When I hear the phrase, “hating him without reason” in regards to Jesus, I would think that the sermon is taken from John 15:25 cited above.
Many people within the Sanhedrin, and Herod’s household/government were alarmed and threatened by Jesus. Jesus had a popular following. He challenged the status quo. He allegedly or apparently broke the Sabbath and said things like: “the Sabbath was made for humans, not humans for the Sabbath.” He said he could rebuild the temple in three days if/when it was torn down.
There were reasons for hating Jesus, but not justifiable reasons, such as: they hated Him because He hated them. Since Jesus didn’t hate them, but challenged them, their hatred towards Him had not been reciprocal. Therefore, in my mind it was “without (good or justificable) reason.”
Is there ever a “good” reason to hate? That almost sounds like an oxymoron.
Comment by: JG
10You appear to interpret the church sign as if it said without ANY reason.
I think it useful to consider what “reason” actually means or rather the range of meanings it can have. A google search on “reason definition” works well.
The first definition listed reads:
a rational motive for a belief or action; “the reason that war was declared”; “the grounds for their declaration”
an explanation of the cause of some phenomenon; “the reason a steady state was never reached was that the back pressure built up too slowly”
the capacity for rational thought or inference or discrimination; “we are told that man is endowed with reason and capable of distinguishing good from evil”
rationality: the state of having good sense and sound judgment; “his rationality may have been impaired”; “he had to rely less on reason than on rousing their emotions”
decide by reasoning; draw or come to a conclusion; “We reasoned that it was cheaper to rent than to buy a house”
cause: a justification for something existing or happening; “he had no cause to complain”; “they had good reason to rejoice”
argue: present reasons and arguments
a fact that logically justifies some premise or conclusion; “there is reason to believe he is lying”
think logically; “The children must learn to reason”
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Comment by: JG
11Pete,
Needless to say my comment was to Helen – I agree with you save that I think it is using reason in a different sense of the word.
And of course, it is a translation so if anyone really want to study this expression as used in the Bible and pull it apart, they should consider what the meaning was in the original language.
Incidently I’m not supporting or criticisng use of the phrase on a church sign. I have mixed views on church signs and agree they can have a negative effect.
Comment by: Pete S.
12JG:
I have never been very impressed with Church signs/ advertisement reader boards. I remember seeing one that said: COme visit us on Sunday: We’re casual, comfortable, …and something else I forget. I don’t think I’d take a church too seriously if they were promoting the “fact” that they were comfortable or casual. But that’s because I look for something else in a congregation.
When a church/congregation resorts to using soundbites to get across a message, that message is bound to be trivial or a cliche. No depth to respond to.
http://javascripture.blogspot.com
Comment by: Helen
13Benjamin I agree with you in thinking their hate of Jesus was a consequence of the way things were in their culture.
JG – yes, I did interpret it as if it said “without any reason”. I think that’s a reasonable interpretation given that people reading it won’t necessarily know the context of it. If told you I went out without money I think you’d assume I meant without any money.
Pete, I agree with you that there’s a limit on what can be achieved with soundbites. Thanks for posting the link to your blog, by the way. I didn’t know you had one. I like the name of it!
Comment by: benjamin ady
14Pete,
You asked “Is there ever a good reason to hate? That almosts sounds like an oxymoron”
It seems to me that there *are* *great* reasons to hate sometimes. Where to start? I hate the gross injustice and extreme poverty in the world. I wish that I hated these things more than I do.
Comment by: Pete S.
15Yes, I would most definitely agree with you in your response.
I was meaning whether there is a “good hatred” of people. The people who worked towards his crucifixion didn’t just hate his ideas, or his presumption, or his critique of the status quo. They hated Him.
I’m wondering if there is a “good” kind of hatred of certain people, or if all hatred of people is wrong or bad, and the trick is to actually work on hating the things that thingize us: those things that render us things in contrast to us being people. I hope that wasn’t too esoteric; I wish I could say it plainer. The injustices you alluded to, the poverty, the racism, classism, sexism, and other “-isms” that render us objects rather than subjects, those are things worthy of our hatred so long as such hatred springs from a radical embrace and love of the people who are being oppressed, even when they participate in those “isms” with their wholehearted consent, as is so sadly often the case.
http://javascripture.blogspot.com
Comment by: benjamin ady
16Pete,
the whole “Is it right to hate people” is difficult, you’re right. Dr. Allender talks about hating people so much that we want to unexist them, not so that they no longer exist per se, but so that as the person they currently are unexists, they can become a new, totally different person whose life isn’t totally consumed with the hateful things the person they are now is doing. So for instance, it would have been nice if back in the day when I was living a mostly disastrous life, hurting myself and other people in fairly devastating ways–I hate the person I was then, and it could have been helpful, perhaps, if someone had loved the vision of who I could become enough, back then, to hate that person back then, when I was incapable of hating him, and … entered my life with both that intense hatred and that insane hope for and love for the person I could become, the person I was meant to be. Their interaction with me could have perhaps prevented a lot of grief.
Comment by: JG
17This is why I have misgivings about church signs of that nature.
But with your example, there is no confusion over the meaning of money, it has the same meaning in both contexts.
Whereas it is common knowledge that “reason” has more than one meaning or can be used in more than one way. I think it is unfortunate when we seize on one meaning and insist it must mean that and then accuse the other person of stupidity for saying it.
And of course in this case, it is not a phrase the individual church dreamt up. It is a simple quote from the Bible.