Posted by Helen on: 06.27.2007 /
This is my latest letter in the local newspaper, which is a response to George and Mary.
George, yes, I do understand that although I found freedom by leaving church, you and others find freedom through your involvement with church. You could have decided, “This means Helen simply went to the ‘wrong’ church. She needs to switch to mine.” I very much appreciate that you didn’t go there. At the same time, I appreciate your kind invitation to me, one Sunday last year, to attend your church. An invitation is very different from putting pressure on me by implying “there is something wrong with you unless you like the church I like.”
Mary, I see you have questions and haven’t read the whole dialog. You can find it by going to the Wednesday Journal’s website www.wednesdayjournalonline.com and searching on Rev. Lueking’s and my last names. The dialog began July 5 last year.
In particular, if you read more, I hope you will see nature is not my God any more than ice cream is. I enjoy nature and ice cream, but that’s very different from worshiping them!
Admittedly, I may be intentionally avoiding the certainty you seek from me. I used to want it. I thought I was on an intellectual quest for truth, not realizing I was as least as much on an emotional quest to feel safe and secure. The emotional quest pulled me towards an overly simplistic way of looking at humanity: my group is good, yours is bad!
My sense is, you want me to tell you my label, what group I am in, but these days I would rather be groupless. I don’t like the typical group dynamics I’ve encountered in all groups, Christian or otherwise, such as:
The Bible stories about Jesus - whether true or not - indicate he hated these group dynamics as much as I do. Each time he found a situation where a group had formed and left people outside, he annoyed the group members by favoring the outsiders. That’s why he went to Zaccheus’ house instead of joining the crowd in hating Zaccheus.
It’s been very disappointing to me that what Jesus hated, many Christians love.
Being groupless is more complicated than being part of a group. I find myself drawn to defend atheists one day and Christians another, depending who I am interacting with and who is being mischaracterized. In fact I’m often defending Christians to Christians since I run into a lot of acrimony and misunderstanding between “progressive” and “conservative” Christians.
I believe the group dynamics I dislike are driven by fear. One New Testament author wrote, “Perfect love casts out fear.” That’s where I hope I’m headed. I’m looking for people who can point the way. I know them when I find them, and I’m already in their group. It’s the group-that-isn’t-a-group because it has no outsiders.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
1“It’s been very disappointing to me that what Jesus hated, many Christians love.”
me too
Thats why I am dedicating what’s left of my life to “Freeing Jesus From Religion”
Comment by: David H
2If you are seeking, then you will find. I think Jesus said that. Church can either be a help or a hindrance, depending on you and the church. I believe there is a great deal of benefit to fellowship, especially the kind that challenges participants to look beyond (seek) what they have already accepted. Such fellowship is Church, even if it doesn’t have a building and meetings on Sunday morning.
I happen to attend a church building with regular meetings, a great pastor, and a great congregation. Those gatherings are very beneficial to me. But I don’t believe that everyone has to attend my church or even any church to be part of the Church.
But even if we don’t use the word c(C)hurch in the discussion, there is valuable fellowship here at CatE (I won’t call it a church since that might cause some to stop coming by). It seems to me that such fellowship, wherever you find it, should be fine, Helen, unless or until you want something else. C.S. Lewis said we all exist in the mind of God. If that is true, we don’t need to “go” anywhere to seek or even meet with God. We only have to open our eyes.
Comment by: Laura M.
3Helen,
You’re officially on my list of people I admire and want to grow up to be like.
Love it!
I feel exactly the same way about “typical group dynamics”.
Comment by: Helen
4Thanks Jim.
David, thanks for not saying I have to be in church. I like hanging out with Christians but doing that in church doesn’t work for me.
Thanks Laura - that’s very kind of you :)
Comment by: seekingsomething
5It’s the group-that-isn’t-a-group because it has no outsiders.
I quoted this from you at work today when I felt the need to use this phrase in a group discussion (about a totally different topic). I love it!
Comment by: robert
6I agree with you that Jesus was inclusive but to say he didn’t belong to a group is inaccurate. He seemed to spend most of his time with a group of 12 and it seems out the twelve he spent even more time with 3. He traveled with a large group a lot of the time as well that included outcasts from his society…my sense is that Jesus did form a community of people that had something to belong to.
Comment by: Helen
7Thanks ss!
Robert, I’m not saying a community didn’t form around Jesus. I’m saying it wasn’t held together by the usual fear-based group dynamics because Jesus would have absolutely opposed that.
By the way, in coming up with 12 are you forgetting the women who closely followed him?
I don’t think these are simply part of the ‘larger crowd’.
You can define ‘groups’ if you like - to some extent that’s semantics. My point is that any group you define that functioned how Jesus wanted it to would not have been held together by fear.
Comment by: JG
8Helen, I appreciate this is what you are seeking but seeking it isn’t the same as achieving it. People inside the group are not the best people to decide whether or not there are any outsiders. You don’t feel like an outsider in your group because you are on the inside.
I have been in a variety of different churches. I am well aware that some can be very elitist and that some are dominated by cliques. If your face fits, you are fine. If it doesn’t you are in for a hard time. This is not a feature of church, rather it is a feature of human dynamics. The same problems arise in any other type of group - work, social clubs, school organisations involving parents etc etc.
Church SHOULD be different and seek to overcome these human tendancies. Some achieve more in this regard than others. Some fail miserably.
I have to be honest and say that the Off the Map community and Jim Henderson in particular (but not you and some others so much) has made me feel very much like an outsider. My face does not fit. And no doubt I will be shot down in flames for saying so.
Comment by: Helen
9JG, thanks for stopping by.
I agree with you - that’s the tricky part. As soon as two or more ‘outsiders’ agree, they are in danger of forming a new group that has outsiders.
For what it’s worth, I am still an outsider in a number of groups so it’s not as if that is no longer part of my life. To some extent I choose to engage with people whose group I’m not in - so I realize I bring that on myself.
As far as I’m concerned you’re welcome here and I haven’t seen any shooting yet. Maybe it will go better than you’re expecting.
Comment by: julie marie
10Hi JG,
Its too bad we have in and out groups, but I think thats just part of being human.
I think most of the people posting here are actively seeking conversation with people outside of their “in” group. In fact, learning to overcome the tendency to not listen to the outgroup is the purpose of this site.
Thank you for sharing that in your experience, we are not always hitting the mark. Its easy to get comfortable- and as a long time outsider, having found a place where my views aren’t ridiculed, I may have lost some sensitivity. Thanks for the reminder.
Comment by: Rachel
11Excellent point, Helen! Here is another verse which mentions several of Jesus’ female disciples:
Luke 8:1-3
[1] “After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, [2] and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; [3] Joanna the wife of Cuza, the manager of Herod’s household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.”
Comment by: Helen
12Thanks Rachel - yes, actually I think that was the passage I was looking for but I didn’t find it. I knew it was in there somewhere!