I’m curious as to how the troops in Iraq are the reason for your independence?
Isn’t independence a misnomer anyway? We should rename the day “World Domination under American Empire Day” That has a certain ring to it. That might justify more easily, too, for instance, the hundreds of millions of dollars which will be poured down the drain today for an hour or so of entertainment by fireworks.
Well, we’ll be having a good time here in SC. Our street is very close, and we’re having a barbeque - everyones bringing something to eat and something to drink (ahem - I made 2 pitchers of sangria last night)…and every “boy” on the street seems to have gone out and bought fireworks. AFter dark we go down to the pool at the end of our street (we’re so spoiled) and jump the fence, and watch the fireworks from the water. Then we toddle home. the kids have a great time,the grown ups have a great time…no traffic jams, but plenty of action.
its important to just let go and have a celebration sometimes. I’ve got struggles, yes…but overall my life is good and I’m glad about that!
That might justify more easily, too, for instance, the hundreds of millions of dollars which will be poured down the drain today for an hour or so of entertainment by fireworks.
You don’t EVEN want to get me started about fireworks!
I’m curious as to how the troops in Iraq are the reason for your independence?
I don’t think they have anything to do with my independence. However, in the world of support this president and war no matter what, I’ve read and heard that I should be thankful to the troops in Iraq for preserving my right to speak my mind.
We walked to our local fireworks display - Ben videoed the finale on his phone. I like that it’s a community event which lots of people turn out for. And the weather was great tonight.
July 4 is the day Americans are supposed to celebrate their freedom. This country didn’t actually become independent on July 4,1776. There were years of war that followed. On our about this date was the signing of the document that stated the intention “to dissolve the political bands which have connected [us] with” the British empire and reasons this was deemed necessary. What was declared on July 4 was a desire for freedom and my question is whether Americans today know the meaning of that word? I am reading a rather pulpy science fiction book at the moment and recently found this amazing statement in its pages: Freedom isn’t the absence of responsibility, it is the essence of responsibility. Is that a truth most Americans still believe to be self-evident?
My youngest daughter, Sara, had the opportunity to spend this weekend at a friend’s apartment in downtown Dallas. They went swimming in the rooftop pool, while enjoying both the downtown view and the fireworks display.
Freedom isn’t the absence of responsibility, it is the essence of responsibility. Is that a truth most Americans still believe to be self-evident?
I completely agree with this quote, but I don’t know how many Americans would find this to be ’self-evident’.
It reminds me of a comment my brother made once: that it was the responsibilty of the rest of the world to understand America, since we are the ’super-power’, not our responsibilty to try to understand the rest of the world.
I completely disagree. I feel that since we as a nation have such great power, we also have great responsibility to use it wisely. How can we use our power wisely when we revel in our own ignorance?
We may very well owe some thanks to the soldiers in Iraq, they are fighting terrorists there, and not here.
But the interesting thing is there weren’t terrorists there before we started the war. So I’m not sure how we have helped ourselves — or anyone — by creating a climate conducive to terrorists in Iraq.
As for fighting them there rather than here, I work for a newspaper in New Jersey. In the first six months of this year there have been three major terrorist plots targeting sites in New York or New Jersey that have been foiled. The fact they were stopped had nothing to do with the war in Iraq. The fact that they came near to being carried out speaks volumes regarding the presumed war against terror.
And while we may applaud thwarting them here, in Britain they had a major attack on the public transit system that managed to kill and wound many. It was followed only two weeks later with a similar plot that would have succeeded if the explosives had not failed to detonate.
If we are fighting in Iraq so that we don’t have to face terrorism at home, I would have to say the war is an abject failure.
We may very well owe some thanks to the soldiers in Iraq, they are fighting terrorists there, and not here.
Clay, it is clear to me from your posts here that you are very committed to your Christian beliefs. Therefore I appeal to you as a sister in Christ to reexamine your position. Our Savior taught us to love both our enemies and our neighbors. He taught us to do unto others as we would have them do unto us and to love others as much as we love ourselves.
The war in Iraq has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians - innocent men, women and children. How can you say you are grateful that such horrors are happening “there” instead of “here”?
The war in Iraq has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians - innocent men, women and children. How can you say you are grateful that such horrors are happening “there” instead of “here”?
Yes. Hard to justify even from a purely humanitarian perspective; impossible to approve as a follower of Jesus.
We may very well owe some thanks to the soldiers in Iraq, they are fighting terrorists there, and not here.
At the risk of sounding very Rosie O’Donnellish, who defines what a terrorist is where?
I ask because I have family in England, Northern Ireland, and Ireland. Ask some family in Ireland, they will talk about the British terrorists in the North. Some family in England call the same people British soldiers. Some family in Northern Ireland talk about the Irish terrorists there. Some family in England call the same people Irish patriots.
There is no doubt there are terrorists in Iraq. There is also no doubt we have trained, funded, and armed some of those terrorists, as well as others around the world.
Many of the supposed terror plots we’ve heard about being foiled have been SO FAR from being able to be carried out, we would not have heard about them before this unauthorized war. There are not more now than 30 years ago; we only hear about them more now. (Sort of like teachers molesting students.)
It’s not impossible to approve of the war in Iraq as a believer because I do approve of it. There were terrorist attacks in this country long before the war in Iraq. Thomas Jefferson fought against muslims who told him to his face it was their duty to pillage and take prisoners; the barbary pirates. It is not because of the war in Iraq that we are attacked. They have told us why. Why don’t you listen? It is because we are infidels. Whether we fight them or not we are infidels. There are only three alternatives for infidels: convert, pay tribute (a fee) or die. Don’t project your morals upon them.
War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. - John Stuart mill
I apologize for misstating my position. I meant to say it is impossible to use Jesus to justify support of the war. Maybe I’m wrong and missed something Jesus said that would make killing others acceptable. I await proof.
If you wish to justify the war in Iraq as an American — I won’t challenge your feelings, just your logic. There was no connection between the terrorist attacks in the US and Iraq. And if I am to back this war for religious reasons, I will have to opt out.
I am not a follower of John Stuart Mill, I am a follower of Jesus. My citizenship is in heaven. Here is how Jesus tells his followers to respond to enemies.
Luke 6:27 But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who ill-treat you.
He also said, Mat 22:37 “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: “Love your neighbour as yourself.’
Finally, he said, Joh 13:34 A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
I can understand your position. I never used Jesus for a justification of the war. I believe it’s justified because muslims want to kill us because we are infidels. They only back down to force. You can be a pacifist if you want but it takes other men to fight to make you free. That is true regardless of whoever you follow.
It doesn’t take anyone to fight to make me free. Jesus said: Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it for ever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
On the subject of justifications, I can only say that if one master tells you it is wrong to hate and kill anyone and the other tells you that you should fight to protect what is yours, then your actions will tell everyone who you truly follow. Jesus was right when he said you can’t serve two masters.
What the US is fighting for has nothing to do with freedom in the biblical/spiritual sense. It has more to do with politics and economic systems and, quite frankly, we would rather have them enslaved to a system that serves our needs with a steady supply of oil.
As for using force to get those pesky radical muslims to back down, I haven’t seen much evidence in my nearly 50 years of life that that is paying off anywhere in the world.
Finally, on the issue of them wanting to kill us because we are infidels, I have to ask whether it is the Christians or the Americans they consider infidels. They are not identical groups, but maybe they want us both. Perhaps the Americans need to push back because what do they have besides their political and economic system? However, Jesus seems to argue that things are different for his followers. He seemed to say we would be persecuted, but that we should still respond with love — even if that response costs our life. Likewise, he promised that dedication unto death led not to an end, but to resurrection.
So, if you feel your primary citizenship is in America then fight for the principles and purposes of this nation — whether they are right or wrong. However, don’t confuse that with fighting for God and please don’t fight for me, because while I live in this country and do appreciate the freedoms it affords, I don’t think the US system is critical to my faith. Christianity is growing much faster in countries that are not free. Besides, my primary citizenship is in heaven. The challenge for the followers of Jesus is not to defeat their enemies but to embrace them without being overcome by fear of the consequences of that action.
Clay–I see on your myspace that you say Jesus is one of you heroes. I guess I’m wondering which Jesus–the clearly anti-war Jesus of Martin Luther King Jr., or the clearly pro-war jesus of George W. Bush? or some other Jesus altogether?
Honestly I’m wondering what you do with the ways in which Jesus clearly commanded his followers to respond to their enemies? He defined what he meant by enemies in Matthew 5 and Luke 6–those who hate, persecute, curse, and mistreat you. In the same passages he defines what he means by commanding to love them–do good to them, bless them, pray for them, and return kindness and invitation for their cruelty and curses.
If the radical Islamic terrorists which are being discussed in this thread don’t qualify as enemies under the description of these passages, then I can’t imagine who does. And thus the situation with radical islamic terrorists hating, cursing, and wanting to kill American Christians seems the most amazingly perfect opportunity for those same christians to apply this amazingly clear teaching of Christ.
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
1 07/4/07 7:14 AM | Comment Link |Thanks Helen, you too.
I’ll try not to let my BP rise every time I’m reminded that the troops in Iraq are the reason I have my independence today….
Comment by: Benjamin Ady
2 07/4/07 7:44 AM | Comment Link |Doreen,
I’m curious as to how the troops in Iraq are the reason for your independence?
Isn’t independence a misnomer anyway? We should rename the day “World Domination under American Empire Day” That has a certain ring to it. That might justify more easily, too, for instance, the hundreds of millions of dollars which will be poured down the drain today for an hour or so of entertainment by fireworks.
Comment by: julie marie
3 07/4/07 9:46 AM | Comment Link |Well, we’ll be having a good time here in SC. Our street is very close, and we’re having a barbeque - everyones bringing something to eat and something to drink (ahem - I made 2 pitchers of sangria last night)…and every “boy” on the street seems to have gone out and bought fireworks. AFter dark we go down to the pool at the end of our street (we’re so spoiled) and jump the fence, and watch the fireworks from the water. Then we toddle home. the kids have a great time,the grown ups have a great time…no traffic jams, but plenty of action.
its important to just let go and have a celebration sometimes. I’ve got struggles, yes…but overall my life is good and I’m glad about that!
Comment by: Rachel
4 07/4/07 3:30 PM | Comment Link |You don’t EVEN want to get me started about fireworks!
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
5 07/4/07 7:24 PM | Comment Link |Benjamin asked
I don’t think they have anything to do with my independence. However, in the world of support this president and war no matter what, I’ve read and heard that I should be thankful to the troops in Iraq for preserving my right to speak my mind.
I don’t follow the logic there, to be sure.
Comment by: Helen
6 07/4/07 8:46 PM | Comment Link |We walked to our local fireworks display - Ben videoed the finale on his phone. I like that it’s a community event which lots of people turn out for. And the weather was great tonight.
Comment by: David H
7 07/4/07 11:04 PM | Comment Link |July 4 is the day Americans are supposed to celebrate their freedom. This country didn’t actually become independent on July 4,1776. There were years of war that followed. On our about this date was the signing of the document that stated the intention “to dissolve the political bands which have connected [us] with” the British empire and reasons this was deemed necessary. What was declared on July 4 was a desire for freedom and my question is whether Americans today know the meaning of that word? I am reading a rather pulpy science fiction book at the moment and recently found this amazing statement in its pages: Freedom isn’t the absence of responsibility, it is the essence of responsibility. Is that a truth most Americans still believe to be self-evident?
Comment by: Laura M.
8 07/5/07 1:46 AM | Comment Link |Helen, very cute :8-)
My youngest daughter, Sara, had the opportunity to spend this weekend at a friend’s apartment in downtown Dallas. They went swimming in the rooftop pool, while enjoying both the downtown view and the fireworks display.
Comment by: Laura M.
9 07/5/07 1:56 AM | Comment Link |I completely agree with this quote, but I don’t know how many Americans would find this to be ’self-evident’.
It reminds me of a comment my brother made once: that it was the responsibilty of the rest of the world to understand America, since we are the ’super-power’, not our responsibilty to try to understand the rest of the world.
I completely disagree. I feel that since we as a nation have such great power, we also have great responsibility to use it wisely. How can we use our power wisely when we revel in our own ignorance?
Comment by: Clay
10 07/15/07 5:49 PM | Comment Link |We may very well owe some thanks to the soldiers in Iraq, they are fighting terrorists there, and not here.
Comment by: David H
11 07/15/07 9:13 PM | Comment Link |But the interesting thing is there weren’t terrorists there before we started the war. So I’m not sure how we have helped ourselves — or anyone — by creating a climate conducive to terrorists in Iraq.
As for fighting them there rather than here, I work for a newspaper in New Jersey. In the first six months of this year there have been three major terrorist plots targeting sites in New York or New Jersey that have been foiled. The fact they were stopped had nothing to do with the war in Iraq. The fact that they came near to being carried out speaks volumes regarding the presumed war against terror.
And while we may applaud thwarting them here, in Britain they had a major attack on the public transit system that managed to kill and wound many. It was followed only two weeks later with a similar plot that would have succeeded if the explosives had not failed to detonate.
If we are fighting in Iraq so that we don’t have to face terrorism at home, I would have to say the war is an abject failure.
Comment by: Rachel
12 07/16/07 7:27 AM | Comment Link |Clay, it is clear to me from your posts here that you are very committed to your Christian beliefs. Therefore I appeal to you as a sister in Christ to reexamine your position. Our Savior taught us to love both our enemies and our neighbors. He taught us to do unto others as we would have them do unto us and to love others as much as we love ourselves.
The war in Iraq has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians - innocent men, women and children. How can you say you are grateful that such horrors are happening “there” instead of “here”?
Comment by: David H
13 07/16/07 7:41 AM | Comment Link |Yes. Hard to justify even from a purely humanitarian perspective; impossible to approve as a follower of Jesus.
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
14 07/16/07 3:17 PM | Comment Link |At the risk of sounding very Rosie O’Donnellish, who defines what a terrorist is where?
I ask because I have family in England, Northern Ireland, and Ireland. Ask some family in Ireland, they will talk about the British terrorists in the North. Some family in England call the same people British soldiers. Some family in Northern Ireland talk about the Irish terrorists there. Some family in England call the same people Irish patriots.
There is no doubt there are terrorists in Iraq. There is also no doubt we have trained, funded, and armed some of those terrorists, as well as others around the world.
Many of the supposed terror plots we’ve heard about being foiled have been SO FAR from being able to be carried out, we would not have heard about them before this unauthorized war. There are not more now than 30 years ago; we only hear about them more now. (Sort of like teachers molesting students.)
Comment by: Rachel
15 07/16/07 4:35 PM | Comment Link |Excellent point, Doreen! One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
16 07/16/07 9:22 PM | Comment Link |Rachel, that is so funny you just quoted Ronald Reagan!
Comment by: Rachel
17 07/16/07 10:09 PM | Comment Link |Doreen, no way! I did?
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
18 07/17/07 10:15 AM | Comment Link |Yes, you did. Reagan called the Islamist Mujahedin in Afghanistan “freedom fighters” and invoked that saying. But now, of course, they are terrorists.
Comment by: Rachel
19 07/17/07 5:12 PM | Comment Link |Oh, no! I quoted Ronald Reagan! Will you still be my friend? ;-)
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
20 07/18/07 6:47 AM | Comment Link |as long as you’ll still be my friend knowing I voted for him once!
Comment by: Rachel
21 07/18/07 7:24 AM | Comment Link |It’s a deal! :-)
Comment by: Clay
22 07/18/07 9:53 PM | Comment Link |It’s not impossible to approve of the war in Iraq as a believer because I do approve of it. There were terrorist attacks in this country long before the war in Iraq. Thomas Jefferson fought against muslims who told him to his face it was their duty to pillage and take prisoners; the barbary pirates. It is not because of the war in Iraq that we are attacked. They have told us why. Why don’t you listen? It is because we are infidels. Whether we fight them or not we are infidels. There are only three alternatives for infidels: convert, pay tribute (a fee) or die. Don’t project your morals upon them.
War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. - John Stuart mill
Comment by: David H
23 07/19/07 4:55 PM | Comment Link |I apologize for misstating my position. I meant to say it is impossible to use Jesus to justify support of the war. Maybe I’m wrong and missed something Jesus said that would make killing others acceptable. I await proof.
If you wish to justify the war in Iraq as an American — I won’t challenge your feelings, just your logic. There was no connection between the terrorist attacks in the US and Iraq. And if I am to back this war for religious reasons, I will have to opt out.
I am not a follower of John Stuart Mill, I am a follower of Jesus. My citizenship is in heaven. Here is how Jesus tells his followers to respond to enemies.
Luke 6:27 But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who ill-treat you.
He also said, Mat 22:37 “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: “Love your neighbour as yourself.’
Finally, he said, Joh 13:34 A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
Comment by: Clay
24 07/28/07 6:41 PM | Comment Link |I can understand your position. I never used Jesus for a justification of the war. I believe it’s justified because muslims want to kill us because we are infidels. They only back down to force. You can be a pacifist if you want but it takes other men to fight to make you free. That is true regardless of whoever you follow.
Comment by: David H
25 07/28/07 10:38 PM | Comment Link |It doesn’t take anyone to fight to make me free. Jesus said: Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it for ever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
On the subject of justifications, I can only say that if one master tells you it is wrong to hate and kill anyone and the other tells you that you should fight to protect what is yours, then your actions will tell everyone who you truly follow. Jesus was right when he said you can’t serve two masters.
What the US is fighting for has nothing to do with freedom in the biblical/spiritual sense. It has more to do with politics and economic systems and, quite frankly, we would rather have them enslaved to a system that serves our needs with a steady supply of oil.
As for using force to get those pesky radical muslims to back down, I haven’t seen much evidence in my nearly 50 years of life that that is paying off anywhere in the world.
Finally, on the issue of them wanting to kill us because we are infidels, I have to ask whether it is the Christians or the Americans they consider infidels. They are not identical groups, but maybe they want us both. Perhaps the Americans need to push back because what do they have besides their political and economic system? However, Jesus seems to argue that things are different for his followers. He seemed to say we would be persecuted, but that we should still respond with love — even if that response costs our life. Likewise, he promised that dedication unto death led not to an end, but to resurrection.
So, if you feel your primary citizenship is in America then fight for the principles and purposes of this nation — whether they are right or wrong. However, don’t confuse that with fighting for God and please don’t fight for me, because while I live in this country and do appreciate the freedoms it affords, I don’t think the US system is critical to my faith. Christianity is growing much faster in countries that are not free. Besides, my primary citizenship is in heaven. The challenge for the followers of Jesus is not to defeat their enemies but to embrace them without being overcome by fear of the consequences of that action.
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
26 07/29/07 8:07 AM | Comment Link |David H wrote:
Amen, brother!
Comment by: benjamin ady
27 07/29/07 7:47 PM | Comment Link |Clay–I see on your myspace that you say Jesus is one of you heroes. I guess I’m wondering which Jesus–the clearly anti-war Jesus of Martin Luther King Jr., or the clearly pro-war jesus of George W. Bush? or some other Jesus altogether?
Honestly I’m wondering what you do with the ways in which Jesus clearly commanded his followers to respond to their enemies? He defined what he meant by enemies in Matthew 5 and Luke 6–those who hate, persecute, curse, and mistreat you. In the same passages he defines what he means by commanding to love them–do good to them, bless them, pray for them, and return kindness and invitation for their cruelty and curses.
If the radical Islamic terrorists which are being discussed in this thread don’t qualify as enemies under the description of these passages, then I can’t imagine who does. And thus the situation with radical islamic terrorists hating, cursing, and wanting to kill American Christians seems the most amazingly perfect opportunity for those same christians to apply this amazingly clear teaching of Christ.
So what do you mean when you call christ “hero”?