Posted by Helen on: 07.15.2007 /
I don’t know if Jesus exists or whether the stories about him are true. Even so, I like talking about Jesus because I strongly agree with some of what he said. Also because I see awesome role-modeling of how to be a great human being in many of the stories about him. I hope conversations about these things will lead people to change their behavior, becoming better human beings who make the world a better place. I think of people who embrace such change as “people of the Way’. I enjoyed your story about you and your friend forgiving each other, as a step along the Way.
I would love to talk about Jesus like he is a real human being, in a free, unconstrained manner. My experience of Christian conversations about Jesus is that Christians keep him in a glass case, locked with a gold key. People who share the “correct’ Christian beliefs get their own key. People who don’t are relegated to asking questions which Christians answer. Handling Jesus is a privilege reserved for “right-belief’ Christians.
This reminds me of what Jesus noticed the Pharisees had done with God. They had made themselves God’s gate-keepers. What was Jesus’ response? He was very angry. He said: “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.” (Matthew 23:13)
I love that Jesus wanted to tear down the gates the Pharisees kept locked and give ordinary people access to the Kingdom again. The organization I volunteer for, Off The Map, wants to follow Jesus in this regard, smashing the glass case Christians have locked Jesus in, so he’s available to everyone whether they’ve qualified for a gold key or not.
I think Jesus would like that, if he exists. I think he could handle it if someone who doesn’t believe he is perfect criticizes him for, say, unnecessarily destroying a (fig) tree (it’s just as well he didn’t live in Oak Park).
I’d love to ask questions like: if Jesus is so into being worshipped, why did he never once begin a meeting with “Ok, let’s start with a hymn to me”? And: in some of Jesus’ most direct words about who goes to heaven (Matthew 25), why did he say being kind to others was the way, and not even mention anything about believing in him?
I want Christians to think seriously about my questions rather than immediately jumping in to tell me the theological answer they’ve learned. Trading carefully learned theological answers is boring. Having creative thoughtful unconstrained discussion is much more fun and exciting. And who knows — maybe it will cause us to walk more in the Way and make the world a better place.
Comment by: Andrew
1Hey Helen,
Long time no-see!
Here are a couple of more questions for you:
Why did Jesus say “no one gets to the father except through me” and “anyone who has seen me has seen the father”? He also asked the disciples who they believed he was and when they told him they believed him to be the Christ, he said they were right.
I believe that in order to get to know someone we have to begin to accept them for who they really are. This is something that many Christians are not good at, but it is equally true of non-believers - especially when it comes to Christ (but also when it comes to those who identify themselves as his followers).
I think that this is all Jesus asks of us. To accept him for who he truly is (based on the bits we can know, not the bits we can only ever speculate about) or not to accept him at all. If we just chose the bits we like or that make us feel good then we are only ever going to get a rather 2 dimensional, one sided view of Jesus, or anyone else for that matter.
I think that is what you are doing Helen. Taking the bits you like but discarding the bits you don’t like. Sure Jesus never told anyone to sing a hymn to him, but he did say he was worthy of worship and he did put himself on an even footing with the God of the pharisees. That, in reality, is why they didn’t want him around - they dismissed the good bits (the healings etc.) because they simply couldn’t stomach the other bits.
I prefer the 3D version of Jesus - the one where I am forced to take him at his word or not at all - rather than the 2D “snow white”, “gentle Jesus, meek and mild” version.
Comment by: Helen
2Hi Andrew, it’s nice to see you here again!
Actually I have all the bits. My problem is with your implied belief that they all fit together into one puzzle whose picture matches the picture on the lid. I have in my hand green pieces and there is no green in the picture. I am asking the serious question “What about these pieces? Is the picture wrong? Do we have more than one puzzle here all mixed together in one box?” and for whatever reason you are choosing not to answer it.
If you can’t explain to me where my pieces fit in your 3D Jesus then I will be forced to conclude you picked and chose the pieces you used to construct him, leaving mine out even though they are clearly from the gospels. I don’t know why you would do that - did you not see my bits still there in the bottom of the box after you contructed your Jesus?
You don’t have to try to answer my questions. But please understand that I’m not asking them just as a game. They are why I don’t believe what you believe. They are the roadblocks I can’t get around. And if you don’t address them it only confuses me and makes me wonder why you - evidently - can’t see that they are there. Maybe you have a sort of faith that makes them invisible. I don’t want that sort of faith. The only faith I could consider having is one which doesn’t interfere with my ability to see and admit what’s real.
You are doing exactly what I wrote about. You are implying “I get to ask the questions!” You are the handler of Jesus and I’m not, because if I handle him I get it wrong.
Comment by: Tom Atkinson
3You know, I can see the point being made about us keeping Jesus all locked up and can say, as a Christian, I have seen this at work.
All I can say about Jesus is He is my friend. The closest one I have. I can talk to him, and yes, He answers when I stop and listen and see what He is telling me.
He is the role model I strive to follow, not very good at doing it. He is the one I talk to when I have problems and issues to deal with in my life. When all else is gone, everyone is busy, He is there.
I can go to him when I need to and feel his presence.
Think I am strange or something? Well some may say I am. But I am telling you what I feel about Him. He is my Savior, my future, and He loves and cares for me.
He wants everyone, I feel, to know him and come to him. He does not need a man to stand between himself and me or you.
What else can I say, He paid the price for my wrongs, and He is all that matters, now and forever.
Maybe I am not a good role model as a Christian, but I love Jesus and He loves me, and no matter what the tag one places on it, He is there for all of us.
Comment by: Helen
4Tom, thanks for your comment. I really appreciate you hearing what I’m saying. Also that you told me about your beliefs about Jesus, rather than telling me why I am wrong.
Comment by: Stephan
5Helen, I applaud your questions because I know they are sincere. You are looking for honest answers and you will accept them if they ring true. Some Christians are uncomfortable with the questions, as you note, because the answers aren’t easy.
I won’t try to give you easy answers because I know you would not accept them. I believe Jesus is far more complex than most Christians want to believe, and following him is more than simply “Praying the prayer”. He was deeply concerned about how we treat each other. He was also concerned about restoring a relationship between God and creation. I believe these are two separate goals of the incarnation - to show us how we ought to live, and to bring forgiveness and justification (sorry about the theological term) to the world. Evangelical Christians tend to focus on the latter, while more liberal Christians tend to focus on the former. I am trying (and I think OTM would back me up here) to live out both.
Jesus could have done the teaching without being God, but only God could repair the relationship. I think it’s an incomplete picture to accept either one without taking the other.
Comment by: Andrew
6Hey Helen,
No, I’m not trying to imply that I am the “keeper of the questions” I am just trying to add to what you are saying - and that is that there is more to this than just the stuff that makes easy sense.
I recognise that there is stuff in there that appears out of place - but I guess that I am happy to accept that what I can know is enough. Or rather the answers I can get are enough to satisfy me, coupled with my own personal experience.
So I really didn’t mean to give the impression that my questions were the only questions - just to add them to yours, as I do believe they give your questions perspective - or at least they add something more to think about into the mix.
When we don’t include all the questions we end up with the 2D picture again instead of the “magic eye” 3D one.
Comment by: Bruce Lofland
7I think a lot of people, both Christian and non-Christian get too hung up on the words of the Gospels and don’t get the meaning. It is important to remember that the Bible is more art than history. It is trying to show meaning (spiritual truths) in a way that most people could get it 2000 years ago. What I am getting at is that things like “unnecessarily destroying a fig tree” really do have meaning, even if it isn’t obvious.
Comment by: Rachel
8Helen, I missed the story about the two friends forgiving each other. Was that posted on OA or one of the other blogs?
Comment by: Alan Gluck
9How can you help people know who Jesus is, if you don’t know or believe who you are in Christ? Do you think of yourself as a sinner or a saint? (or just as bad, a sinner saved by grace?). Why would people believe what you say about Jesus, if you don’t believe what Jesus says about you?
When you believe who you are, people will be able to see who you are…
http://www.mychristianidentity.com
Comment by: Kirk
10Helen, your message resonates with me. Jesus’ condemnation of the Pharaisees was in response to how they have turned following God into an institutional religion. I wonder how Jesus feels about the form of Christianity we have inherited throughout history. I dare say he’s not very pleased.
I don’t believe Jesus meant apprenticeship to him to be black and white, cut and dried, rote, or boring. I believe he intended us to wrestle with issues of faith, truth, and what it is to love one another…him…our enemies.
I consider myself to be a Jesus follower, but I’m leery of anyone who claims to have all the answers. There seems to be a dynamic tension in many areas of the Bible, but, for me, they are not barriers to faith… and here’s why:
Without Jesus, I was a decent sort of guy who did a lot of things that I wasn’t very proud of. When I chose to follow Jesus, the journey has led me to become more loving and less self absorbed, more focused on serving and giving to those in need and less isolated. I still struggle with lots of issues, but on balance trying to follow Jesus has been very life-giving to me and to others.
I feel like there is hope for me because those who literally followed Jesus on a three year journey didn’t have it all figured out at the end of their time with Jesus.
Comment by: Helen
11Thanks Stephan. It means a lot that you understand I’m sincerely asking.
Although we’re in different places in terms of belief I think we have a lot in common in that we both reject overly simplistic answers and we both want to live meaningful lives which don’t get sidetracked away from what is truly important.
Off The Map encourages people to follow Jesus by serving others. That’s where our emphasis lies.
It’s not our intention to align with any particular group of Jesus followers, but rather to encourage all Jesus followers not to neglect the spiritual practice of serving others.
Comment by: Helen
12Thanks Andrew - sorry if I read too much into what you wrote.
Bruce, what I am looking for is open discussion of whether the fig tree incident has meaning and what it is. I’m fine with people having different opinions about that. I’m not interested in being ‘told’ what the answer is in a dogmatic way, whether the teller is convinced it was a real event, or is a sort of ‘teaching parable’ and no fig tree ever withered, in actuality.
Comment by: Helen
13Rachel - oops, editing problem! This is an edited version of my next newspaper response to Rev Lueking, actually. I thought I took out the parts specifically in response to him but I forgot that bit. Anyway here’s his article, including that story:
Before Truth and Life there is the Way
Comment by: Helen
14Alan, you’re right - I have no authority to tell you who Jesus is. I’m advocating free open discussion about Jesus. I’m not saying I’m ‘right’.
Thanks Kirk. I think there’s hope for you too. When a person said something Jesus really liked one time, Jesus responded “You aren’t far from the Kingdom”. Even that person didn’t have it all figured out, evidently.
Comment by: Ron Johnson
15Helen, I’ve been asking the same questions. The answer to both is, “Jesus didn’t.” Worship means “worth-ship” . . . the granting worth to something. Jesus didn’t come to be worshipped. He came to be followed.
One of my favorite songs is by Wayne Watson, “Would I Know You Now.” It goes like this:
Would I know You now if You walked into the room,
If You stilled the crowd, if Your light dispelled the gloom?
And if I saw Your wounds, touched Your thorn-pierced brow,
I wonder if I’d know You now?
Would I know You now if you walked into this place,
Would I cause You shame, would my games be Your disgrace?
Or would I worship You, fall upon my face?
I wonder if I’d know You now?
Or have the images I painted so distorted who You are,
That even if the world was looking, they could not see You, the real You?
Have I changed the true reflection, to fulfill my own design,
Making You want I want, not showing You forth divine, divine?
Would I miss You now, if You left and closed the door,
Would my flesh cry out, I don’t need you anymore?
Or would I follow You, could I be restored?
I wonder, I wonder will I ever learn?
I wonder if I’d know You now?
Good questions . . . I think Jesus would say, “Come let us reason together . . . Let’s sit and talk awhile.” Scripture says that when we see Him face to face, we will fall on our face before Him. Today and until that day, we are to be following Him . . . “If you will be my disciples . . . you will do what I am doing.”
Comment by: Dan
16HELEN - I HAVE GOOD NEWS!
First of all, I think that you, yourself, are not far from the kingdom. You are being honest in who you know in your heart Jesus is NOT. I think God praises you for your honest heart and not being content with anything less than the REAL Jesus, instead of falling in line with what the “doctrine police” enforce upon you. (It’s interesting to note that no one was ever burned at the stake for the heresy of “not loving”, the truest reflection of the disciple).
Here are few scriptural themes to consider that may be helpful to you. First, one of the main things Jesus came to do was to REMOVE all barriers to Him (or the Father, depending on how you read it). ‘Let the children come to me,’ Jesus insisting on touching those who needed Him, being with those people that the established religion had rejected, commanding those who follow Him to do the same. Other new testament authors echo this - there is one mediator between God and man - only Jesus - not a myriad of theological guardians.
Second, I think it is a good thing that you are acknowledging the tension that you feel and WANT to take it directly to God. Throughout the scriptures, those that engage Him personally when there is something that “just doesn’t smell like the good God that I know” are commended for approaching the throne with boldness. Some examples of this are Abraham pleading for Sodom, Moses hashing it out with God for the sake of the Israelites, Jacob (whose name was later changed to Israel, which means “he who wrestles with God” the namesake of his followers), David’s repeated tongue-lashings of bleeding heart poetry in the Psalms (the man after God’s own heart, no less), Job in his condition crying out to God to answer his plea, Elijah in the wilderness, John the Baptist in prison, and finally Jesus in the garden sweating blood in heated conversation with the Father. You’re in good company.
Third, even in the process of learning to communicate directly with Jesus, it helps to ask questions from those who know Him intimately. However, consider the source. While we are commanded never to judge a person’s intentions, I would recommend asking “Jesus advice” from people who sweat and bleed unconditional love and acceptance. Jesus Himself said we would know a tree by its fruit. Personally speaking, I have recently found better “Jesus advice” from the “amateurs” outside the “church” as opposed to the religious professionals and feel like I’m closer to the elusive kingdom of God than ever. I say this with sadness, as I continue to wrestle with what God is doing (or not doing) in the institutional church in my area. If the professionals don’t smell like Jesus, then, in the words of Jesus, don’t let yourself become “twice the child of hell (as the religious professionals)” by taking their yoke, as opposed to the light yoke of the Master. You know what Jesus DOESN’T look like - hang around people who look closer to the picture of Him that He has laid on your heart.
The fig tree…consider its place in the narrative. Jesus is on His way to Jerusalem to judge them for being fruitless reflections of the true God, providing no nourishment to those who need it most. (Consider your own situation…you have gone by the ‘fig tree’ of institutional church, or a handful of its representatives, with a hunger for something real and they have been unable to provide you with the ‘fruit’ you are hungry for thus far). Whether literal, or poetic, Jesus, upon finding that the tree is already dead, merely accelerates the death that has already happened. It is a proper judgment for those of us who claim to be alive and bear no fruit in our lives that resembles the sacrificial love of Jesus.
I hope some of this provides some of the peace of mind that you are looking for. Please feel free to continue this conversation at your leisure. I love these conversations as they inspire me to ask questions of my own.
Dan
dwenzel@cgp.net
Comment by: Helen
17Thanks Ron.
Dan wrote:
Dan, I appreciate your comments and enthusiasm, but I already have peace of mind. I am not in the market for more at this time, thanks.
Comment by: Dan
18Dan, I appreciate your comments and enthusiasm, but I already have peace of mind. I am not in the market for more at this time, thanks.
Fair enough…I’m not trying to force my perspectives upon you, merely annotating my current journey through similar questions. Just thought you might find it helpful or at least empathetic.
Comment by: Helen
19Thanks Dan - I do appreciate the empathy and your desire to help.
Comment by: April Terry
20Helen,
I also resonate with your desire to have open conversation. I long for an experience of “church” where everyone could sit around and discuss what they think, doubt, feel, or wonder about in their faith. I think maybe we don’t do that enough.
Instead, we set up pews in straight little perfect lines, all facing the same direction, pointing toward the authority figure behind the pulpit who is under pressure to feed our faith. I’m all for breaking the barriers and bring Christ out into the open.
Let’s do it! Where do we start
Comment by: Ronald
21Helen
Jesus, as an ordinary man, wouldn’t make for much of a conversation, since he’d still be dead in a grave. You want a conversation with Jesus, but on your terms, treating him as a mere human being. If you did that, then you might as well have a conversation with a coffin!
On the other hand, if you want a conversation with Jesus Christ, you might realize he’s been there all along knocking on the door of you heart (Revelation 3:20).
Jesus didn’t get drawn into the woman at the well’s theological questions. He went right for the heart of the matter, and after offering her eternal life which she wanted, asked her to call her husband (John 4). So, what sin is it you wish wasn’t on the top ten don’t do it list?
The identity of Jesus of Nazareth is vitally important to understanding Him. If you think he’s just a human being, then how can he possibly help you or anyone? Jesus’ true identity is revealed in John 1.
His message, His precepts, His teachings treated as a philosophical “way” is not the point of His life, death, and resurrection. To treat them as another way of life misses the gospel entirely.
Doing good, even to the point of death, is entirely vain, without love. (1 Cor 12-14). A life of good works done apart from Christ have no meaning in eternity.
It’s not just the bad, evil works, that have to be repented of, but also the good works. (Hebrews 6:1).
There are two books for judgement, one is called the book of life, the other book a record of all one’s deeds. You can perform many good and bad works, but only the one’s whose name are in the Book of life enter the kingdom of God. (Revelation 20:11-15).
Jesus said of himself, he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He says no man comes to the Father except through him. It’s not just a theological proposition or golden key.
You want some reality, some substance of conversation when you engage people of faith. Okay. But, did it occur to you that if you preclude what those people of faith can say to you, you may miss the very answer you are looking for that they say they have found?
There is a substance of faith that one only receives on the other side of the looking glass–after you take the right pill and realize you’ve been in a Matrix life that has been holding you captive to only what you perceive to be reality, but really isn’t.
Christ promises to come live inside of you. The Holy Spirit transforms you from a domination of darkness and translates you to a dominion of Light. You become renewed inside, totally.
Nothing of the Gospels is understood clearly without accepting the healings, the miracles, and the spiritual reality, e.g. casting out devils, that are revealed there. There is more to following The Way then just reading and applying a “do good unto others as you’d have them do unto you” philosophy.
The Holy Spirit lives in all true Disciples of Christ (aka Christians) and He’s been speaking to you. If your heart is open, I suspect you are hearing real conversations with the Creator of the Universe and Savior of all mankind all the time. But the real question is, will you choose the the ears of faith to hear, the eyes of faith to see.
In your hearing, these scriptures have been fulfilled (Luke 4:17-21). How’s your hearing?
Here. Let me help get that spec out of your eye: Lord Jesus Christ I submit myself and my prayer to you. Like commanding the fig tree, I now operate under the authority of Jesus Christ and speak this command over Helen: In the name of Jesus Christ, I bind you satan from hindering Helen from hearing and seeing the Truth of the Gospel. Holy Spirit I ask that you open the eyes and ears of Helen that she might truly hear and see and accept the Truth of the Good News: that Jesus Christ, the Son of God and LORD, was crucified and died for Helen’s sins, and was raised from the dead for Helen’s justification (Romans 10:9,10). Thank you Jesus for being the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. Thank you for loving and caring for Helen. Thank you for hearing and answering my prayers. In the name of the LORD Jesus Christ, Amen.
It’s a faith thing Helen, which is to say, it’s a heart thing. You want answers that fit between your ears, but the answer you need doesn’t fit there, but about a foot lower, in your heart.
It’s not that I appeal to an irrational faith. But, if you seek to know experientially, mystically, the risen Lord, the mind is used for the essentials until you get to Him into your heart.
I am not here to apologize about the Truth, but to declare it. My faith isn’t agnostic, so I can’t afford to be open minded about other beliefs, or accommodate others who want a watered-down (2D?) Jesus. It’s not about having all the puzzle pieces perfectly put together. The Bible isn’t like other books: the author of the book is still around, as close to you as your next breath. Once connected to the author, you’ll still have questions. Get over it. The LORD resists the prideful. He is near the humble and brokenhearted.
The fig tree is often a metaphor for national Israel.
The cursing of the fig tree teaches about the authority and power of speaking prophetic declaration, commands, pronouncements, binding, loosing, blessings and curses.
Comment by: Helen
22April wrote:
Here? Now? :)
Comment by: Helen
23Ronald, I might use your comments in a workshop I am giving on Friday called “Helping Lost People Like You”.
Comment by: PHIL
24Hi, Helen.
It is encouraging to see that there are others who have questions of faith. I have struggled with similar questions as yours. Although I find asking questions and getting answers from others stimulates fruitful conversation, I have found that the only satisfactory answers come from the source within a personal relationship with Jesus who, by the power of the Holy Spirit, reveals the truth of the Word.
Having said this, I will share with you what I beleive is an answer to your first question and encourage you to seek your own underestanding as suggested.
There is substantial historic record that Jesus walked this earth as a man. I also believe, by faith, the divinity of Jesus as described by John in the beginning of his gospel. (John 1:1,2) Jesus, the Son, was already with God, the Father, in the beginning. Jesus came to earth as a man according to God’s plan of redemption for a lost world. Following Jesus’ death and resurrection, Jesus, in His resurrected body, was seen by over 500 eye witnesses before His assention into heaven where ” Now he is seated in the place of honor beside God’s throne” (Heb 12:2). Jesus is therefore worthy of our worship. It’s not that Jesus is into being worshipped, it is more like all creation will bow down in realization of who He is (Lord of Lords and King of Kings) when He returns to earth again. Those who love to worship Jesus before He returns already know Him as such for they have accepted it by faith.
In addition, by coming to earth as a man, Jesus humbled Himself to be born by a humble maiden in humble circumstances and died on a humble cross. Jesus whole life on earth was an expression of humility. Starting a meeting with “a hymn to me” would not have been consistent with the Father’s plan and Jesus was totally obedient to the Father.
Thank you for the opportunity to respond.
PHIL
Comment by: Helen
25Thanks Phil.
Could you say this again in different words, for the benefit of people who have not had this experience? What actually happens in this process?
Comment by: Stephan
26It’s interesting to see how much feel-good Christian mumbo jumbo you get by asking these kinds of questions. I realize it’s all well meaning, but at some point it has to be made practical.
Theology, while fascinating, is not rarely practical. It can tell you what to believe, but not necessarily how to live. That’s probably why many Christians are more interested in theology. They can talk about it all they want without have to change their lives. Not to mention the fact that theology probably does more to drive away curious people that it does to attract them.
I recommend we move forward with this discussion with things that can be done. Not things that must be believed or thought or even said. Let’s be practical.
Comment by: Karen
27Oh, the irony of that last bit - I’m swimming in a sea of it!
:-)
Comment by: PHIL
28Helen
Yes, that sentence does need some other words. I’ll try to break it down. I believe God created man in the first place for a relationship and it is God’s desire to have a unique relationship with each and every one of us (personal relationship). I also believe that the only way we can find the intimate relationship God desires with us is through Jesus.
Once you personally know the source of the Word (Jesus) He begins to reveal the truth of the Word. By the truth of the word I mean that reading scripture (the Holy Bible) as mere words on some pages will not give you God’s truth unless you have inspiration from the Holy Spirit. The same kind of inspiration that was given to the writers of the bible (Tim 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true ….)
I should explain here that all of this probably makes sense only if you believe that God is three persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) in one God. I admit that this may be getting way off topic and is an idea (the Trinity) I do not fully understand but helps me with understanding many other things.
The process begins with a desire to have a right relationship with God. If one truely desires this with all their mind, heart and soul, I believe God will somehow make available to that person the gospel of Jesus Christ. That person will then need to make a decision whether to accept that Jesus is who He claims He is (the way the truth and the life - John 14:6). If that person accepts Jesus and repents of thier sin, which Jesus died on the cross for, Jesus will send the Holy Spirit to dwell in that person, enabling the potential for positive change in that person’s life.
I hope I have not been too confusing. It touches on a lot of area and I am just trying to make this a conversation and not a bible study.
Again, these are my beliefs and no-one should take it too seriously before checking it our for themselves. As Psalms 118:8 says, “It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in people”.
Thanks again,
PHIL
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
29Hi Helen. Gee, I hope we have more than 5 minutes together in Seattle in November to philosophize in person!
I agree that there are some who would lock Jesus up with access only available to those with the special key, or the special knowledge. Some of these people are the same people who tell me they know I’m going to hell. They must have the direct 800 number to God that I don’t have.
Considering the word “worship” is a relatively modern word (for those of us who believe in evolution, at least), I’d be curious to know how you define “worship.”
To me, the way many people worship Jesus is somewhat heretical. I do not find worhip to include never questioning, doubting, or not believing. Some define worship as loving unquestioningly and uncritically. Right there I smell an oxymoron; I only want love from those who are willing to question and look at me critically, just as I want to be able to do the same to those I love.
I believe worship as showing devotion, reverence, love, and adoration. So in that regard, I’m the heretic when I say I strive to worship all of creation, and not save worship for Jesus, God, or Sunday mornings.
I’m honoring your request to not quote scripture, else there are a few interpretations posted I would take issue with!
:)
p.s. Since I live in DC, I’m thinking about going to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. next week with a sign that says
It’s the Golden Rule,
not the Golden Ruler.
Comment by: Helen
30Stephan wrote:
Great idea, Stephan!
Karen, I hope you keep afloat ;-)
Phil, I was actually thinking more along the lines of - how do the answers get communicated to you? Do you hear a voice? If it’s an internal voice how do you know it’s not just you talking to yourself?
This is why I like to look at the stories of Jesus and discuss them. I know we’re at least all reading the same thing.
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
31What can be done?
Let’s start with this - before saying or doing anything anytime, anywhere - let’s ask ourselves, what would Jesus do?
For example, if I had asked myself that, I would not have written pope smope.
I’m convinced that if every preacher, teacher, minister, monk, what have you could get everyone in attendance to pledge to ask that question for a year, we’d have a brand new nation.
Yeah, I’m pretty naive, aren’t I???
:)
Comment by: Helen
32Doreen, I am so glad I’ll meet you in November in Seattle! I was sorry you didn’t make it last year.
Actually I’m ok with you quoting the Bible if you want to. I said I wanted thoughtful answers - if those include the Bible that’s fine with me.
Comment by: Rachel
33Helen, you are going to the Midwest Emergent Gathering? That is awesome - I am soooo jealous! I hope you will give us a detailed report.
Me too! Are we going to have a bloggers’ dinner again this year? Maybe we could do something on Thursday night before the event starts.
Comment by: Rachel
34Helen, this reminds me of a quote from a book I read recently, Leaving Church by Barbara Brown Taylor:
“The church answered all my questions while I was growing up, but they also gave me the questions I could ask.”
Comment by: Brendon
35What can I say that hasn’t been said?
not much at all. As usual, Helen I think you have a clear, open mind, eager for discussion and searching for the truth. I pray you will find the truth you earnestly seek
Comment by: Carl
36You aren’t asking new questions. Many Christians have sought God for wisdom for generations. Don’t be so narrow-minded and prideful to toss away thousands of years of research and logic and careful consideration of these questions, just because you want a “fresh” answer.
The bottom line ins this - Jesus wants humility. That leads to two key concerns. FIrst, humility isn’t so quick to jettison 2,000 years of research and careful consideration, all to find a feeling, an emotion.
Second, humility accepts that God teaches, and has taught people for many generations, and that it is wise to listen to what has gone before.
If you choose humility, the old answers will sink in and eventually Godly wisdom will replace the emotion-driven false wisdom of this world.
If you don’t choose humility, you will spend the rest of your life struggling with questions God has already answered, generation after generation.
The questions aren’t the problem. The heart attitudes are.
Comment by: Helen
37Rachel, I am going to some of the Emergent Midwest Gathering (I’ll be there Friday, not Saturday). Since you asked nicely I’ll blog about it. :) But I may well not blog about the details of my workshop because if it goes well I’ll probably do something similar in Seattle in November. After that I’ll blog about it!
Let’s hope the joke really is a joke in most Christian communities rather than the reality!
Brendon, thanks.
Comment by: Helen
38Carl, what can I say except, thanks - more excellent material for my workshop “Helping Lost People Like You”! I hope I remember to print this page out and take it with me.
Comment by: David H
39Maybe it isn’t the questions or the answers that are the problem. Maybe it is the people providing the answers. I spent half a lifetime swallowing the old answers and then I began to take those answers apart. Maybe I don’t want to just discard the old answers, but I want to know how and why more than just: “The Bible said so.”
Some of those old answers aren’t universal — not everyone who claims to follow Jesus agrees on them. And some of those answers are just flat wrong — they are the product of a “church” that was co-opted by a secular institution that helped influence the interpretations of the Bible to best suit the state’s needs.
Read the origins of Just War theory. There is nothing in there about how Jesus said we should treat neighbors or enemies. Yet for a thousand years Christians have been citing it as justification for worldly conflicts.
Here is my question, when will my parents and other Godly teachers begin to replace the false wisdom they have been shopping? When will “Christians” begin to show the humility they so often talk about and Jesus commanded of them?
Maybe the problem isn’t the questions. Maybe the problem is the Christians who claim to have the answers.
Comment by: Florence
40Dear Helen,
I hope you will forgive me if I say something first in response to your original post and read the 39 comments second. You said, among other things,
Believe me, this is one area where I have for years asked the same question, based on bunches of places all over all the gospels…..
I don’t think Jesus was into being worshipped. I am not precisely sure what He really meant when He said, or at least is reported to have said, He wanted us to believe in Him, but I don’t have a similar problem understanding what the apostles meant when they said the same thing. I do believe He was God’s idea of the fulfillment of Isaiah 53 and that through Jesus (and a relationship with Him and a relationship with God we come into through Jesus) we receive all the good things the NT says we do.
By the way, I like to make the distinction most of the NT does in identifying the term “God” with the Father. I understand Jesus as being what the New Testament over and over (and in the mouths of more than one witness) states, summarized in the terms Lord, Son of God, high priest, lamb of God, etc. Of course, that raises the question of what He is as Son of God or as Lord. With all due respect to the Nicene fathers, I think they were trying to define something we have no way of knowing about. They had their reasons; they were dealing with the Greek-speaking world and there were all sorts of ideas floating around! However, I think the kind of conclusion they came to is clearly not only an extrapolation from but an expansion on the scriptural “evidence.” Only, if Jesus really can be a sacrifice for all men, and I believe He was, and if He is above and greater than angels, as Hebrews 1 states, He is definitely something rather more than we denizens of the 20th century might naturally think of by some of those terms…..
I know you don’t grant Paul and the other writers the kind of authority I do, but I really have to appeal to them to explain my view!
About Matthew 25, my interpretation is based on the point in the text that the people gathered before the Lord were the “nations (or peoples) of the world.” I think that this very likely refers to people outside the Christian faith being judged by the terms laid out there. I expect it’s not interpreted that way by evangelicals generally, but I don’t much care. Go to the source, I say. :) At least if you can!!!!
Now to the 39 posts. :) Thanks for the conversation (and more to come assuming you or others respond). :)
Comment by: Russell Ford
41Hi Helen and fellow bloggers, from a Kiwi believer living way down under the Southern Cross.
April, you asked a great question, but as Helen’s response was a little brief you may have missed her meaning. Perhaps she should have said that this blog can be your opportunity to experience the sort of active fellowship you seek as a means of making Christ better known to you and others. There is no such thing as a silly question in Christ, so be encouraged to get asking, commenting or contributing. In the past decade, cell groups have become the international norm for a greater sharing away from the normal gathering called Sunday church. Second and third century ‘agape meals’ were also cell group gatherings where care and love (agape) for one another was paramount in relationship and conversation. The Christian blog is just another extension of a cell group forum. May it eventually be a means for you to seek a cell in your neigbourhood, or as you grow in Christ, even be inspired to start one up.
Helen, I am inspired by your blog conversation and its participants (and best of luck for the conference), however, before contributing I would like to first pray for your ministry (others may wish to join in this prayer by repeating it aloud as they read it), ‘Lord, may your hands remain on this blog site and its participants, so that its many readers will come to know you personally as a friend and brother, to know your Father as our ‘one true Sovereign God, and to know his Holy Spirit as a personal life counsellor and daily guide and protector in this hostile world. Amen.’
I found Ronald’s contribution awesome (praise God), but it evidenced the need for readers to first have a personal experience of our Saviour Christ, in order to obtain a fuller understanding of His truth, as Ronald obviously has experienced. Helen, your response on behalf of all those not as advanced in relationship as Ronald, was understandable, and I too look forward to Ronald’s response to this invitaton. In doing so I hope he shares a snippet his personal CONVERSION EXPERIENCE and truth with us. For only in a personal experience of the Godhead can we put flesh of our faith, which then becomes an IRREVOCABLE TRUTH of heart and mind.
To be effective the sharing one’s faith and the truth of Christ, requires more than sharing the gospel on a street corner, before your congregation or with a friend over a hot or cold drink. How and what you share is extremely important if the mesage is to be heard and accepted as a personal truth.
I personanly recommend that the first story you share is YOUR OWN STORY (your personal testimony) and then CHRIST’S STORY (his gospel testimony). It is the personal truth of your story that will grab the attention of the listener. Once inspired by YOUR TRUTH, they are prepared to hear CHRIST’S TRUTH.
In reading or sharing the Gospel’s, try starting with the easy to read ‘news headlines’ account as presented by the Gospel of Mark. Just don’t read it, get involved as you would watching a news broadcast. Let it speak to you and envision the events taking place. Listen and hear Christ’s words as being personally spoken to you as though you were there with him. If you find it hard going write to and aquire a DVD acount of Christ’s story (eg. YFC’s ‘Who Is Jesus?’) After Mark, gradually read through the Gospels of Luke (the Doctor’s prescription) and John (The Spirit revealed) and Matthew (the Historian’s account), before reading Acts, the Pauline epistles and the writings of the Apostles. Finally be blessed for just trying to read John’s Revelation prophecy (Rev1:3). When reading pray about what you find hard to understand or interpret, If God considers it important to you he will give you understanding. If not don’t worry about it, move on.
Now before you do all that, should you not have yet had a personal experience on which to base YOUR OWN STORY, start today by seeking it. Here is just one methodology as to how….
First, LEARN TO PRAY by memorising the LORDS PRAYER (as per Matthew 6:5-15). Having done so, prostrate yourself before God (get down on your knees) and reach out. ASK God (plead, cry out, petition) to personally speak with you. As YWAM’s Loren Cunningham once wrote “It is really not all that hard to hear God’s voice” (His first book ‘Is that Really You God?’ in the appendix ‘Hearing God Speak’). As Loren summarises, conversing with God is achieved through, either, His living word (you actually need to read the Bible in order to hear his personal messages), or, by hearing His actual voice spoken in your inner ear (eg. Job 33:14-15), or though the intermediary involvement of another. My personal experience of this occurance, was and still is by way of His provision of scriptual references to me spoken into my inner ear, initially when I was asleep but know at any time I feel the need to reach out to him. You should feel free to question, converse or challenge Him in search of further understanding of what is being said or instructed to you. He does not confuse, that is the role of the enemy and satan loves playing interference. Don’t act on instruction without full knowledge and confidence that it is from Christ. If uncertain, wait upon assurance through confirmation from at least three other sources (Cunningham’s ‘3 Wise Men’ principle). My initial personal experience of this was awesome, unbelievable and humbling. My experience of God’s presence and communications were confirmed within 7 days week from 3 seperate sources, all who knew nothing about what I had experienced and two who I had never previously meet. Although Ananias had heard of Paul he destested his repuatation (Acts 9:10-19). He unwillingly went to hm as a messenger out of pure obedience to God. Paul did not previously know of him. but accepted his healing actions and words as a confirmation of his earlier Conversion Experience.
If you feel you need an Epiphany experience of Christ (a personal revelation or appearance of him in your presence) in order to believe, then pray to God for it and keep praying till you receive it. Don’t stop, never stop. If this is hard for you keep focussing on the fact that Christ never gave up on you. In the face of public ridicule and unbelievable pain, he stayed there on the cross so that ‘his Father’s will might be done’, for mankind.
Paul’s ‘epiphany experience’ has been repeated throughout history eg. Luther, Edwards, Wesley, Billy Graham etc.) and is available to you. But unless God has chosen you for immediate attention and future action in His name (when he will break through to you without invitation), you might first need too prepare yourself as Loren Cunningham instructs in his book. HUMBLE yourself and repent your sinful life; UPHOLD Jesus as your Lord and Saviour; REBUKE satan and his evil influences from your presence (pray them away and into the abyss (deepest part water, read Mark 5:13). Finally, HAVE FAITH to perceive his voice when it is given to you through the power and presence of the Holy Spirit (Job 33:14-15).
But what, I hear you say, is the Holy Spirit and how does it work for me to hear God’s voice and to know Christ personally?
Well Jesus Christ has given us a full teaching on the How, What, Where and When of the Holy Spirit. His instruction of the disciples is fully recorded in the Gospel of John, so why not have a read. John 14:6,7,20,21,26,; 15: 15,16,26; 16:7-10, 12-15; 20:21-22 and 20:23. Compare this last verse with Matthew 6:14-15 and recognise its paramount importance as a prologue to the Lord’s Prayer which should not be missed as it has been by the church. Why I wonder? Forgive others so that your sins may be forgiven by God. Forgiveness and reconciliation is the greatest stumbling block to one finding a personal relationship with Christ. Cunningham discusses this in the appendix to his book and recommends you act to put those wrongs right. Way to go Earl!
I had one fellow I felt I could not approach or write to, without his belittling Christ and my born again faith. I therefore asked God to release me from that obligation until such a time the other party and I were ready. I trusted that God would manage the time and place of opportunity. He did so a decade later and I knew the minute I saw him just what I had to say. I was astonished as to how prepared God had made him and his response actually honoured not belittled Christ or me. He then proceeded to share his personal story of change since we had last met. He too was a fruit of the spirit of Christ.
In the Book of Acts you can read of the first fruits of the active Spirit in this world, post Christ’s assencion (John 1:6-9), commencing with John 2:1-4, 31-33. In John 2:37 the people hearing Peter’s witness were cut to the heart, yes the heart not the brain, and asked the Disciples “Brothers, what shall we do?”. Peter replied, “Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And You will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off -for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
If you have not previously been baptised, or consider your parental arranged Christening or baptism insufficient for your acceptance of a faith in Christ, then seek out a Christian pastor and be baptised. It doesn’t matter where or when or by whom, so long as they are trained or experienced in conducting a baptism. If you haven’t previously why not read the wonderful account of Philip baptising the Ethiopian in Acts 8:26-40. His baptism was impulsive in response to hearing the truth of Christ’s and the salvation he offers, so why not you too?
Once in Christ, it is important that you seek to participate in an open fellowship of believers (Church or Cell group) for regular sharing and learning that will help your journey along ‘THE WAY.
As recommended by the Promisekeepers movement, all believers should seek both a Paul and a Timothy figure in their lives. Relationship with an older wiser believer who can counsel them, and of a younger believer who they can assist. What’s the old adage, “The best way to learn is to teach”. Heck it works on the ski slopes and the golf course so why not in your faith?
I do apologise for the length of this contibution, and thank those who have had the patience to read this far. I pray that it will be helpful to you and an encouragement of you to SHARE your personal testimony of Christ with others. May you be greatly blessed for doing so and come to know Him more and more.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
42Where else can you find this level of honest dialog and the fact that it’s been inititated and led by an almost atheist is even more telling
Comment by: Helen
43Hi Russell,
You’re welcome to join in the conversation here, but I’m not sure why you posted your opinions about how a Christian should share their faith or how to become a Christian. Did someone here ask you how? I don’t recall seeing those questions here.
Comment by: Helen
44I think some of you may be missing the point…please read the following
Conversation or declaration?
Comment by: Jonathan Thomas
45Hi Helen, I have read your post and have come to the same conclusion you have: Jesus is more than theology, he is love in practice. If we don’t have love for one another, then can we really say we are like him? Of course not. Jesus himself says that everyone will be able to quickly recognize the people that follow him because we will have an intense love for each other (for all mankind, not just people that agree with our theology).
I also agree that many Christian practices are not very practical. The formal Sunday morning service allows for very little personal interaction, and even less opportunity to get to know the people that have showed up.
Maybe you should consider joining a small group locally, where everyone can get to know you, and you can get to know them too. My wife and I have decided to abandon the traditional style of ‘Church’ because it’s too formal and creates barriers that prevent rapid personal growth, free thinking, personal expression, and interaction.
Would the real Jesus please stand up?
We too are looking to live as Jesus did, loving and caring for all those we can. And we are willing to challenge our theology in exchange for closer adherence to Him.
Comment by: Helen
46Thanks Jonathon.
I don’t see a reason to form a new small group. I am already in a number of ‘naturally formed’ groups which I would rather involve myself more in than form a new ‘artificial’ group. The groups I am in - although not necessarily as involved in as I could/should be are - parents of my childrens’ friends; parents of students who study music with the same music teachers as my children; parents of children at the same schools as my children; people who live on my street; people who care whether they cut down old established trees at the park across the street in order to add a full size soccer field to it.
And then there are the online groups, of course.
Comment by: Helen
47Jim, thanks for giving me a place where I can be honest.
Comment by: Stephan
48Along the lines of this conversation, my wife is getting involved in a Bible study with a few other women in our community. Our kids have played little league together - that is our connection. My wife grew up in a very conservative fundamentalist home. Another woman in the group got tired of “playing church” a few years ago and now “home churches” her kids. Another is a very liberal Catholic who follows Jesus but really knows very little about the Bible. It should be a very interesting time, and I can’t wait for her to get involved and tell me more about it.
I have appreciated the give and take here. Helen, I wish I could be there to here you speak. Will the audio or video be available anywhere afterwards?
Comment by: Jonathan Thomas
49Hi Helen, I was actually meaning a small group that gathers to discuss Jesus. Not necessarily a new group, but maybe simply seeking out an existing group. Vicki and I have discovered several groups in the general Houston area that exhibit the kind of love you mention here, and are always open to discussion about Jesus.
However, I know time is valuable and comes in small quantities.
Comment by: April Terry
50Russell,
Thanks for the clarification, but I got Helen’s meaning. I was actually asking a bit of a rhetorical question and Helen picked up on it quite well….Silly me…I got a good chuckle out of her response, though!
I feel I am most worshipping God when I sit around the campfire with a group of friends discussing Him. I feel it on Wed. nights over Thai food, and on the third Sunday of the month when I hold a senior’s hand in the old folks home. I feel it when I brown bag my lunch and sit with friends I have worked with for 17 years talking about real meaningful things in life. I experience it when I am picking up my morning coffee, walking the dog, standing in the checkout line, or getting my hair cut and I meet someone new. I feel it when I read a good post on this or any blog and I better realize His love for me. I experience it when I go to lunch with a friend and she tells me that her mom with Alzheimer’s is in the last stages and we both cry together.
Jesus is real to me in all of those moments, and I don’t feel at all deprived of any opportunities to worship him.
Comment by: Rachel
51That was beautiful, April. And according to Matthew 25, when you hold the hand of that lonely senior citizen, you are holding the hand of Jesus. Mother Teresa always said that Jesus comes to us in the distressing disguise of the poor and needy.
Comment by: Todd Miller
52Helen,
I think you would enjoy some books written by Martin Zender, especially “How to Quit Church, Without Quitting God”. He makes the statement that if Jesus were to live on earth today, He wouldn’t attend church or join the Christian religion. You can check out his site at http://www.martinzender.com/.
Comment by: David H
53Well said, April.
Comment by: RachelC
54Okay… firstly as Christians and as humans we’re not always going to have all the answers… it would be nice if we did, but sometimes we just have to throw up our hands and say “I don’t know.” God is a mighty, awesome, and mysterious God… there are some things that are just beyond us. And that’s okay. I would rather try to figure out an answer together than to start an arguement over what I THINK it is. (Not saying that is what anyone has done.)
Secondly, I think people need to be in a fellowship whether that’s a church or another body of believers. It’s where you’re going to find the answers to the questions you don’t know and it’s why God created the church. In 1Corin. Paul says it is love that strengthens the church and in Phil he tells the church of Phillipi to stand as one. I know it’s gotten pretty distorted today, but there are some good ones out there… you just have to look.
Comment by: Helen
55Stephan, if it’s recorded I’ll let you know - I’m not sure whether it will be or not.
It would be fun to meet you someday - I hope the time comes when we are in the same place at the same time!
Jonathon, I realized what you meant - as you said time is precious. Getting together just to discuss Jesus might be too low on my list of priorities to actually happen.
Comment by: April Terry
56What is “felllowship” if it isn’t getting together with others and talking about Christ and faith?
What is there inside a church that I can’t experience outside of it?
Comment by: Helen
57Thanks April. I love how you can find Jesus in all those everyday life moments and relationships. Not that I would know for sure, but I like to think that’s how Jesus meant it to be for everyone. That people don’t have to go out of their way - and shouldn’t - to find him because he is already there in those daily moments and in those times when two people meaningfully connect.
Comment by: Helen
58Thanks Todd. I do like how Martin clearly separates Jesus, church and religion. He probably wouldn’t ‘understand’ me though, since I don’t know whether Jesus exists.
RachelC, I am happy to be engaged with people in general. I think I get everything I would get in church that I care about (more in fact) that way.
Comment by: Valerie Lynn Williams
59Your blog indicates a leavel of knowledge a level of wisdom even yet a great leavel of personal doubt. Let me tell you a little of my story. I had little church or bible study when I was young my parents divorced and weekends were with Father he only took us to Church on holidays and to several denominations He was searching for answers to why diferent churches worshiped and celibrated things diferently were not they all celibrating Jesus? Why do seventh day Advenest go to church on Saturday? The answer they gave in those days was Saturday is the Saboth and that is the day we worship. To Baptist,Penticost, Lutheren and Prespaterian why do you celibrate Christmas the ways you do? Why Do you celibrate Easter as you do? These were always heated debates as a child I thought arguments. This and being molested when 3,5,7 by uncles while staying at Grandma’s house after my outer ear surgeries. I grew to doubt my grand mother made that doubt even greater when she told my mother when she was divorcing my father that she was commiting willfull unforgivable sexual sins. I did not understand wilfull but knew sexual ment sex and I had had sex so if mom could not be forgiven then I could not be forgiven. My life spiraled down from there. I came to in a hospital age 20 with doctors asking do you want this baby I did and I prayed somewhere I had herd of Hanna’s story but not remembering it all I asked God to save my son and if he would I know I can’t be saved but I will have my son in the Church every time the doors are open and I did till he and I were fighting over his not wanting to go at age 13 and suddenly God Spoke in my heart he is of the age of comsent now he has to chose. I still kept going trying to be an example to my son but I had no faith I had not been baptized. At age 21 I got married and within 6mo. We were both asked if we loved Jesus and yes we both did so we got Baptised in Jesus Name. I however still did not think I could be forgiven for those unforgiveable sins. Finally at age 40 I heard the story of the woman at the well JOHN 4:all and relized the devil was a lie and I could be forgiven and shortly after I was in an Baptist evening service and we were studing the day of penticost and we all prayed God if you still move as you did then we are here waiting to be led by your spirit of truth. And The Holy Ghost came in with toungs of fire and a mighty rushing wind and I recieved the gift of toungs and was baptised in the Holy Ghost. I got baptised in water a few months later in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not know that it would have been necessacerry If I had faith the first time but I had not so now with faith I got baptised to show God that I was starting A new life. I still make mistakes but thanks to Gods mercy and Grace I am Saved sanctified and holy Ghost filled. Amen All it takes is Faith Do you think you can find the faith and courage to say yes ot Jesus and give over yourself to him I know from miricles and through Love that You can for I did. Thanks be to God. Amen!
Comment by: Stephan
60Helen, I have family in Chicago and we will probably vacation there some time in the next year or two. My cousin is a history prof at North Park University and another cousin is the pastor at Winnetka Covenant Church.
I look forward to meeting both you and Mike C. while I am there.
I will also have pizza at Giordano’s. Lots of it. Several times.
Comment by: Helen
61Valerie, wow, you had a very awful childhood. I am so happy to hear what God has done for you - that you have a new life and are forgiven.
Stephan, please do get in touch when you’re here! I have met Scot McKnight - does your cousin know him? He’s a professor at North Park. He spoke at an Off The Map mini-conference (Missional Matrix) earlier this year.
Comment by: Russell
62Valerie thank you for your wonderful testimony and Allelujah, Praise God! Just keep sharing it at every opportunity and tag Jesus ‘Good News’ Story onto it. God will surely use you to save many others for Christ in your lifetime! I do hope others begin to share their testimonies with Helen, that she may begin to FEEL the REAL heartfelt touch of Jesus in this world via his Spirit led presence.
Helen, if the truth and reality of other’s testimonies don’t work for you, then there is always the African mission field. If it can save Hollywood stars you would be a pushover. I am, however, a litte confused with your ‘almost atheist’ tag. Is this really a genuine statement of your walk, a wind up to Christian believers, or perhaps a bit of both? Where can I read your personal testimony aka Valeries?
PS. You asked, “I’m not sure why you posted your opinions about how a Christian should share their faith or how to become a Christian. Did someone here ask you how? I don’t recall seeing those questions here.” Perhaps I tagged a little onto your invitation to Ronald. As I stated his contibution highlighted a disparity in the knowledge of experiencing Christ and the need to flesh out some helpful HOW TO’s. Please forgive me if I offended you in any way, but as Valerie’s testimony evidences, Christ’s hand is in their somewhere. Every Blessing.
Comment by: Helen
63Hi Russell - I’m not offended. I wrote about being almost an atheist here, if you’d like to read more about that:
Almost an atheist
Comment by: Steve S.
64Well…
…I loved the first little interchange!
I have found it so fascinating how people’s personal theology prevents them from reading the simple words recorded in the gospels. I can’t tell you how many times I have been in the position where I have asked a question about, or directly quoted, words Jesus Himself spoke, only to have St. Paul or some other’s words used to contradict it.
(Your puzzle piece analogy was blindingly astute!)
It seems people are unwilling to simply engage with the specific question or quote…
…not that I am foolish enough to believe my own eyesight to be without distortion, but it has the ‘tradition colored glasses’ leading to a tradition colored world.
I don’t know where your interests lie, or what kind of reading you do pursue (although you obviously have some interest in spirituality or you wouldn’t be blogging here) but I have found two authors in particular to be particularly honest with (to the best of their abilities, of course) the person of Jesus as represented in the gospels as a whole. Interestingly enough they are both academically trained thinkers outside of the church; a Philosophy professor and a Historian. Dallas Willard and N. T. Wright
Comment by: Mike O
65I’m coming into the game a little late, I see, but what an awesome topic! OK, I’m at post #1 so far but I had to comment on this …
I actually wanted to write a skit for church one time called “The crucifixion of Mr. Rogers” but I couldn’t really come up with anything suitable for in church. But the whole idea behind it was, there was more to Jesus than kissing children, telling everyone they’re OK and all that. Frankly, he upset a LOT of people enough to kill him. I think that’s the the 3rd D in the 3D Andrew talked about … he’s more then teddy bears and soft music.
Comment by: Helen
66Hi Steve, thanks for your comments.
I own a number of NT Wright books and went to hear him speak him speak earlier this year - I blogged about it here. He is wonderfully eloquent and his theology is beautiful - even though I’m less aligned with his beliefs than I used to be it was a delight to listen to how he put words and ideas together.
Those talks weren’t about Jesus but I do like the way NT Wright writes about Jesus’ self-awareness. Since you like him I recommend Anne Rice’s novel Christ the Lord - it’s fiction I know, but I think it’s a very respectful, thought-provoking portrait of Jesus growing up and beginning to sense who he is and what that could mean. At the end she says she drew on NT Wright’s thinking about Jesus and I could tell.
A pastor of the church I used to go to recommended Dallas Willard’s book Renovation of the Heart to me. I read some of it but didn’t like it at all. Its portrayal of atheists was inaccurate and that annoyed me. I know Dallas Willard is highly respected but I don’t understand why he didn’t put more effort into making sure he wrote accurately on the topics he chose to write about.
Comment by: Helen
67Mike, what’s really hard for me to deal with is Christians who seem sure who Jesus is pleased with and who he is not pleased with - and they are on his ‘nice’ list and I am on the ‘naughty’ one. I keep thinking, if Jesus showed up a lot of people might be surprised who he counted as his friends. After all, they were surprised when he was here, according to the gospel stories. Why would the surprise have gone away and Jesus have become predictable?
Comment by: Steve G
68Dear Helen,
I enjoyed reading the blogs. I think Jesus cannot be put in a box. He must define himself for us. A man-made Jesus will not do. I was pondering what I believe. I don’t want to manipulate you. I have had some thoughts that I would like to share. In several of the blogs, it was mentioned, “let’s do it”. I think that is central to the teaching of Jesus. The more you look at Jesus, the bigger he becomes. It seems the first problem is our desire to dichotomize and separate. Belief and doing are synonymous in the Hebrew mind. That is also true in Africa where I live. To believe is to do. We do not separate the spiritual from the physical in Africa. They both touch life. Someone has said our compartmentalization comes from Aristotle. I don’t know. So then, how do I live this life? Jesus said “follow me”. I take that as personal. I don’t want to get “preachy”, but I do want to react to what Jesus has said and done in the gospels. It helps me to define myself. It is clear that to “follow” means more than hanging around. Clearly the disciples were to change their way of living to match that of Jesus. They didn’t do a very good job; neither do I. Jesus speaks about and models a life that is radically different. That’s my task. Jesus treated every man and woman the same. He showed love, forgiveness and compassion. Now, no one is to compliment me on what I do. I am a servant (and a friend). A servant is not praised when he does his job. It is just expected. I don’t want to be puffed up. I want to be like Jesus. If anything, I lose my benefit by sharing the things I have done. In Luke 4, he outlined his mission. I am to do the same stuff. I don’t think the list is all-inclusive, but is particularly aimed at men and relationship with them. He speaks of the Spirit on him (I think this gives us power). He says tell the Good News (what is that?) to the poor. Heal the broken hearted. Proclaim liberty to the captives. ; Recovery of sight to the blind. Set free the oppressed. And proclaim the favorable year of the Lord. Now that is a whole lot to work on. It is a bigger picture than asking people to “believe”. In Matthew 10, Jesus instructs the disciples and sends them out to do. This is what I want to do. When I see someone broken hearted, I sit down and talk to them. I do not heal them, yet somehow a process of healing has begun. Over time they get better. I have worked with the poor. They amaze me. The best hospitality I have ever had was under a tin roof above a dirt floor. I came to them to help and they helped me. The truth of the cross for me is that I can no longer live for myself, but live to help others. It is not about me and what I need. Here is one of the things that happened. A landowner in South Africa was renting tin shacks to African workers. Eighty percent had jobs. He wanted to sell the land for condos. He showed up on a Monday with the police and bulldozers. They plowed the shacks under while the people were at work. They came home to rubble. The Church in the area rallied and came out to help. I took my sons with me. We helped them sort through the wreckage and build new shacks. It was painful. Their response was amazing. “It is not because you have helped us, but because you come to be with us in our distress that we thank you.” Just our presence was enough!? How many people are bound by situations and oppressed? They want someone to walk with them. Am I willing to give my time and energy? We get to share in the work of Jesus today. So what do I do? I do what is before me. If that is saving trees from destruction, so be it. If it is talking with a child about his/her fears, so be it. If it is taking a drunk into a restaurant for something to eat, yes. The secret of the kingdom is doing what the king says. I turn away from bad and do good, because Jesus has set me free. But I suspect that Jesus is even bigger than this. Is this too spiritual? Do I sound too pious? I don’t know it all. I don’t understand it all, but I do know what I am supposed to do. I think for everyone, it is intensely personal.
That’s my story, maybe yours is different.
Steve
Comment by: Helen
69Thanks Steve. Yours is one of the best stories I’ve heard - thanks for sharing it here.
Comment by: Rachel
70Amen, Brother Steve! Would you be interested in visiting us over at our sister blog Justice and Compassion? We would love to have you join the conversation there too. (And of course, that is an open invitation for any bloggers who want to discuss “how to create a more just, compassionate and peaceful world.”)
Comment by: Mike O
71Ooh, I like what Stephen said in #5 …
Comment by: Mike O
72Helen said in #11 …
AMEN to that! That’s why I stuck around even though I theologically disagree with many here. I am a conservative Chrsitian, and my beliefs haven’t changed that much.
BUT …
Like Helen said, Jesus followers, especially conservative ones like myself, need to learn to not neglect the spiritual practice of serving others. I believe what I believe, but I also see a huge hole in conservative Christianity in the area of loving and serving others. I almost see myself as much of a missionary to the conservative Christian church as I do to the atheists.
Comment by: Helen
73Mike, thanks for your comments.
Are you only up to #11? You have a long way to go! And that’s even before you get to the two ’sequel posts’!
I’m very glad you’ve stuck around. I hope I’ll continue to have opportunities to see you in person from time to time - I very much enjoyed the two times I’ve been able to do that so far.
Comment by: Pete
74Well I read about half of the responses…but 70 is a lot…so if I’m repeating anything, forgive me.
I am a pastor…and I struggled with the same couple of things for a while. I’m not here to tell you what you should think, but only share the 2 things that let me get past it.
I think alot of good points have already been made about considering the whole of Jesus, not a few points and ignore the rest. It seems everyone likes to grab things that make their point of view look good, and ignore others. I hope I can refrain from that.
Jesus may have not ALWAYS equated salvation with him, but he did it enough where I think it’s safe to say he was including it as part of the package, along with living a holy life. He said “If you love me you will obey my commands.” And I think he was just stating a truth: when you love someone, you try to please them. You want to…it’s natural. I think they are both part. Without loving Jesus, you have no forgiveness, now ay past your sin. But without acting on that love, your love proves to be nothing but words.
So on to worship…I struggled a loooong time with this. Why would a ‘loving’ God demand our worship? And 2 things occurred to me:
First was when I came home from work and my boys rushed to see me. “Daddy daddy!” they yelled and hugged my legs like I had been gone 8 days not 8 hours. I can’t describe that feeling…but it’s one of the most pleasant in life I think. I think God feels that way when we worhisp/love/praise him. He loves us so deeply, that our returned love is about as good as it gets. And I won’t even go into the awe I feel that my actions influence the feelings of the creator of everything. Humbling barely scratches the surface.
Second was that God is spirit (according to the Bible, which is my reference point as a christian). Now, if I want to engage you here on earth, I can do it intellectually–because you have a mind–and physically–because we both have bodies.
But how do you engage a spirit? I mean in a meaniingful way that actually enhances the relationship, and doesn’t become a practice or habit or something one-sided?
I think it’s worship. Worship–to me–is nothing more than bringing my spirit into contact with someone else’s in a deeper way than just words or touch (in the same way a good meaningful hug transcends my body touching someone else’s or a deep, heartfelt thanks means more than a ‘Thank You’ card).
So if God loves us, and wants to know us, and is spirit, and spirits communicate through ‘worship’ (try to forget all the connotations us Christians have put on the word) then worshipping him would seem the natural answer to knowing him.
And I think many people have experiences to confirm this. People who say when they worship God, they connect on a different level than when they read the Bible.
As far as the fig tree…who knows? I think the idea of Jesus’ perfection has less to do with him making the perfect choice allll the time, and more to do with him following God’s will and not sinning. I like to think God has allowed us a little more freedom than havign a ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ choice for what we eat for dinner or where we walk. Maybe it was a bad choice, or a metaphor. But to let one incidence overshadow all others seems a little less than honest (to yourself). In my opinion, Jesus was dealing with a people who were taking what he gave them (God’s presence and love) and instead of sharing it with the world, they were hoarding it and being greedy and exclusive and everythign God didn’t want. Jesus decided making one tree never bear fruit again was worth the lesson it would teach. I’m ok with that. I don’t think it needs reconciling with the idea of him being perfect or God. Maybe you disagree, and that’s ok.
Hope that wasn’t so long as to be intimidating.
Comment by: Stephan
75I like what Steve said:
I think this is true anywhere, but we try in western culture to say we believe something when in reality we do not.
I think that when someone says they believe they should help the poor, but they do not do it, they really don’t believe it. They just think they should believe they should help the poor. (Yeah, go ahead and read that last sentence again.) It would be a good thing to believe. But if they really believed it, they would do it.
There is so much pressure here to believe the right thing that people will say they believe it even if they don’t have any intention of acting on it. It is that pressure to believe the right thing that causes the false dichotomy.
It also causes many people to identify themselves as Christians even if they have no intention of following Christ.
Jesus called us to believe and to do. You cannot separate the two.
Comment by: Steve S.
76“our desire to dichotomize and separate. Belief and doing are synonymous in the Hebrew mind.”
…we poor bifurcated souls, children of our Enlightenment fathers…
Comment by: Todd Miller
77Helen - You might be surprised. I don’t think Martin Zender would care whether you believed Jesus exists or not. But I know he would accept you as one of God’s children, regardless of what you believe, as would I. Take care.
Comment by: April Terry
78Helen,
Forgive this question being off-topic slightly, but did you really mean that you don’t know whether Jesus exists or do you mean that you don’t know whether Jesus is who Christians say He is?
I am just curious about that because I have always understood that Jesus’ existence as a man was not really in question since there are many writings about him from other sources other than Christian sources.
Comment by: Toby
79Helen, I don’t claim to have all the answers and my view is not necessarily the ‘correct’ view, however, it seems that the appropriate thing to do is to at least attempt to discover the correct understanding of Jesus. I am curious about one thing. Do you hold to the notion that there is no correct or incorrect belief about Jesus at all? If that is the case, then why even bother holding him up as a good moral example, especially if there may, or may not, be anything special about him. His ‘moral’ teachings are not necessarily unique.
Comment by: Helen
80Thanks for your comment, Pete. I appreciate you addressing my questions.
Children who rush over and grab their father’s legs grow up. That analogy doesn’t really work for me since I’m not a child anymore.
I don’t know what spirit in contact with spirit means. I don’t know if I have a spirit or what it is exactly, if I do.
Even so, thank you for sharing your thoughts on these matters.
Comment by: Helen
81Todd, sorry, yes, I somewhat misconstrued Martin’s position. I looked again and I see he’s a universalist (not a UU as he is at pains to point out).
I don’t think we speak the same language because he is very into the Bible and Christian words. Nevertheless I admire people who are unable to believe a good God would eternally torture human beings (whether that leads them to become atheists or universalists).
(Which isn’t to say I therefore lack respect for people who hold more traditional Christian beliefs.)
April, sorry if I was unclear - what I meant was “I don’t know if Jesus still exists” i.e. was resurrected and now sits on the throne.
I’ve never taken the position that no such person as Jesus existed ever - that the story is a total fabrication. When I looked into non-Christian sources a while ago there were less than I thought. But, there are sources, Christian and non-Christian and I don’t have reason to say they are completely made up.
I don’t really think about how true the stories are, to be honest. Maybe because I mostly talk about Jesus with Christians who all assume they are true so it doesn’t come up.
My issues are more - if they are true, how can you be so reductionistic about the gospels, forcing them into a systematic theology which (imo) ignores so many things in them?
They are interesting stories which could be creatively discussed but instead they are used mostly to justify someone’s systematic theology. Which I think is a waste.
Comment by: Helen
82Toby, if Jesus is a good moral example, why not hold him up as one?
Comment by: Karen
83Actually, there are very few historical external references to Jesus and the main ones that exist are open to question as being fraudulent. So it’s likely there was an historical Jesus (I believe there probably was) but there are scholars who question it.
There’s a book out that explains their position in depth:
The Jesus Puzzle
Comment by: Steve S.
84Do you recall what it was he said, or where?
I haven’t read that in a little while, and I didn’t recall that the book had much in the way of a discussion of atheists…
…besides, I think The Divine Conspiracy would be a better read if you want to see Willard’s take on Jesus. Renovation IMO is kind of an extrapolation of the themes discussed in DC.
Comment by: April Terry
85I can see some truth in your statement, Helen, but it only seems to lead me to more questions.
1 - What things about Jesus have we ignored?
2 - How are Christians being reductionistic that causes you the most problems?
3 - What points would you most like to creatively discuss?
Shane Claiborne said in “The Irresistible Revolution” that everyone is guilty of using their highlighter on certain things in the Bible and forgetting certain other things. Personally, I don’t find that an obstacle, but merely human nature. We take from any book or story what we want to take from it and leave what we want to leave.
Comment by: Helen
86Hi Steve, what I read in Renovation of the Heart put me off reading any more of Dallas Willard’s books (sorry but that’s how it is). I’ll get back to you on specific things that bugged me. I have a six page list somewhere that I wrote for the pastor who suggested I read it (I sent him my list and and he then said “actcually I don’t have time to respond right now” - and that was over 18 months ago - but who’s counting)
Hi April, my biggest at-the-top-of-my-mind unanswered questions are indirectly raised in Jesus’ way to heaven - they are about the rich young ruler and Sheep and goats passages and why what Jesus said in those conflicts so much with the by-grace-alone-through-faith-alone formulation of salvation. Faith isn’t even mentioned in the Sheep and Goats passage - WHY? Your questions are good ones, but that’s all I have time to respond with for now. Maybe we can discuss this more later.
Comment by: Mike O
87Doreen said in #31 …
Methinks you are correct.
Comment by: Mike O
88Whew … I finally caught up. One thing that was interesting in reading all of the different writers in this blog was the approaches of the Christians. While I predominantly agree with much that Ron, Russ, Steve and others said, it was interesting to read them from the perspective of a non-Christian (I am a Christian, for what it’s worth). If I was Helen, and if I didn’t believe what I believe, would my reaction be one of “tell me more” or “never mind”?
But one thing I do think is that Jesus IS pleased with the discussion and with our feeble attempts to get it right. I see here a ton of different Christians from different backgrounds with different positions and different life experiences all trying their best to get the point across that Jesus loves you, and that he wants more than for us to believe in him. He wants us to be like him.
In the original post, Helen said this …
Maybe we do all keep Jesus in a glass case. Maybe we have to because we can’t fathom him in his entirety, so we explain what we understand, and that is our glass case. But rather than using my box to keep people away from him, what if I use it to explain my partial understanding of him? What if rather than having a golden key, we did a kind of a “I’ll show you my box if you show me yours” kind of a deal?
Comment by: Steve S.
89feel free to email it to me…
…I assume you have access to my email adress?
Comment by: Florence
90Helen, I sympathize with the
reductionistic comment. I think we are far too quick to try to impose system, make stuff fit it. It drives me crazy, at least when I see some people do it. :) (Of course, I am aware of definitely being a synthecizer in my own way.)
You mentioned the sheep and goats passage and the rich young ruler. I have a few ruminations.
On the rich young ruler, the Markan narrative says, I think, that Jesus “loved” him and that does arrest me. But what I’m actually thinking here is that the challenge to the young man was, as I recall, “if you would be complete….” Could that be like saying if you want God’s best? If you really want to go for the gold……
Something else that has occurred to me in the past about this story is that Jesus didn’t seem to ask the same thing of everyone. Just for instance, he didn’t tell Lazarus, Mary and Martha to sell all and come with him on the road. I think that’s a fairly significant point.
I mentioned above (#40, I think) my take on the sheep and the goats. The narrative says it is the “nations” or “peoples” that are being judged. But it is clear, however one interprets that statement, that Jesus is saying how we treat people, how we extend ourselves to them, even to those who look like the least of the least, is of the utmost importance.
But I think this can be a growth issue. One doesn’t automatically acquire a completely new character when one meets the Lord. We’re all kind of on learning curves. (Of course, we start at different places and have different constellations of issues, so what any of us look like right now does not necessarily tell the story.) On a personal level, I know I have growing and/or working edges in areas like “Judge less! Revoke judgments you’ve previously made! Keep forgiving! Remember how self-centered we all are; you are not the “standard issue” the other person is to be compared to! He/she is a FULL PERSON and is IMPORTANT AS IS! Can you love him/her as is?” Wouldn’t it be the case that Jesus (assuming He’s who we Christians say He is) that the Lord would tend to lead us in these directions?
Back to reductionism. In my experience, in reflecting on scripture over periods of as long as years, at times, I find certain things highlighted to me. It became a necessity for me to do this, even if I had not had any propensities in that regard. When I was a young thing in the Lord, some fellow Christians that I lived with in a commune of sorts were hammering me over a period of months because they didn’t think they saw any “fruit” in me. I couldn’t make it by conforming! Thus, “How do we produce fruit?” and “How do we live this Christian life, anyway?” have been issues I have had to hammer out between the Lord, the Bible, my own inner sense of what seems really true, and what has really been workable for me in practice. I’m still hammering, of course, in one area or another. But in using this method of developing my own practical and Biblical theology, I have acquired my own definite hierarchy in principles. Some things in scripture I regard as more important than others; some things, less. And I have noticed that not everyone has the same set! I alsos notice that some people (at least in the stage they are at) have not developed their own but have taken others’ system(s) over pretty much whole. We probably have all done that in some areas. But I think perhaps the inheritance of doctrine is one of the reasons it can start to sound pretty old….
Is anything I’ve said interesting to you? Or not, perhaps! Of course, I hope something is. But, if not, I shall try not to take that fact too seriously. You are, afterall, yourself, one of a beautiful kind, and you have your own journey…..
Grace and peace.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
91I finally skimmed but I think all that matters to me is this insightful observation Mike O offers.
I am amazed at the high level of trust Christians tend to place in their views of scripture
Comment by: Paul
92yes i agree helen, free Jesus works for me at so many levels ;)
Comment by: Helen
93Paul - yes, I can imagine free Jesus would work for you :)
Steve, yes, I will be happy to e-mail it to you. I need to find it first.
Thanks Mike. It was so nice to be at a conference yesterday where many things were ‘open for discussion’. And I agree with Jim about how insightful your observation is!
Comment by: norm
94“I don’t know if Jesus exists or whether the stories about him are true.”—After reading the first blog and many responses, it seems to boil down to that first sentence. Sure we could bore you with the Bible and the many stories of changed lives like the blind man in John 9. Jesus does for a man that which he cannot do for himself. The religious leaders seek some big theological response from the man after his healing (because the healing was done on the “wrong day”). All the man has is the change that has happened in his life: “all I know is I was blind but now I see.” Although God’s Great Redemptive Story is air-tight in the Scriptures critics (clinging to hopelessness) choose not to believe. The thing all the believer has to offer truly is his/her life before Christ to after Christ as witness to the truth. All I can give you is this: I wasn’t looking for Christ when He found me. He has changed my life, and compels me to tell others of His mercy and grace. Many bear witness of this truth. You don’t have to believe, but we, like many in the past (and today) are willing to die for this faith. With much proof in changed lives over the years, you have to ask why don’t I want to believe? And that comes down to do I really want to follow Jesus.
Comment by: Helen
95norm, thanks for your comment.
I’ve seen lots of things change people. If other things change people as much as (or more than) Jesus then that’s not a compelling reason to believe in Jesus.
I am lacking evidence that Jesus changes people in ways that can’t happen otherwise.
Comment by: Helen
96Thanks Florence.
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
97I can only speak for myself. I wasn’t able to stop drinking & drugging until I believed there was something out there - otherworldly. Others have been able to stop without any such belief. This did not convince me to believe in Jesus, but did affirm the spirituality I already had.
My Jesus belief did not come until I actually felt the presence of Jesus. I’m not here to debate what that physical feeling could have been instead, and I am open to the fact it could have been something else. For me, it was Jesus.
I have suffered with back problems since I was a teenager.
I’ve had 3 low back surgeries, starting when I was 27. I’ve had PT, I’ve had herbs, I’ve had injections of various sorts; you name it, I’ve probably had it.
My latest bout caused me to leave work on disability. I had another type of injection, which helped a little.
On 7/7/07 I went to the wedding of a good friend. Before the wedding, another friend asked how I was doing because she saw my cane. I told her not that great, that I was in constant pain. Now my friend has been known to exhort inanimate objects, so when she looked at me, swiped her hands in the air around me, and said “You are healed in the name of Jesus,” I thought, “Nice try, Linda.”
My pain was gone.
My pain is STILL gone.
I have no evidence in a scientific way it was Jesus.
But I believe one of my friend’s gifts is healing.
Trust me, even a year ago, I would not have believed this kind of thing!
As always, your mileage may vary!
:)
poetcomic.blogspot.com
Comment by: Florence
98Helen….
You said, “I am lacking evidence that Jesus changes people in ways that can’t happen otherwise.” Speaking from a legal definition of evidence (I work for a law firm), in fact some of our stories are evidence of the proposition that Jesus changes people in ways that can’t be quite duplicated (as well as in other ways, ways that could be). My husband’s story of being freed in an instant (no after pangs, either) from a 24-year 2-pack-a-day cigarette habit a few days after he turned his life over to the Lord Jesus, a habit that he had failed, several times, to kick by trying hard, is a vivid example of which I have some personal knowledge and which is easy to relate in summary form. I’m guessing: It’s just that when somebody tells you something like this, it’s evidence you haven’t seen happen yourself, right? And consequently you’re not sure you can believe it! And you’ve seen too much that you feel you have good reason to doubt, as I recall! I sympathize….
It used to be the case that one would hear stories of widespread miracle occurrences coming more often from places like Africa, where there isn’t so much of the intellectualism (and doubt) endemic to our culture. But I’ve also personally known people who have seen (and ministered) significant miracles in North America. I understand that, since the Reformation, some streams of Protestant Christianity have made it a point to say/believe the miraculous was mostly (some say completely, except for the conversion experience) confined to NT times. The explanation offered in the analysis I read was that the miraculous was part of the Roman world they were escaping. It wouldn’t be surprising if in some of these venues there wasn’t much in the way of the supernatural. Perhaps there’s less of it anywhere than we would like. But I have seen it break through….
Some thoughts. I’d argue there is more out there than you know of!
I feel a little like I’m committing sacrilege, of course. I know you have thought about these things a lot, and more after that. But what persists in my heart is that thought and experience are not the same….
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
99Florence wrote
I agree. That’s why the 4 classical sources of theology are scripture, tradition, experience, and reason. I think thought is a combination of those.
Comment by: Helen
100Doreen, thanks for sharing your story. I’m very happy for you and the last thing I would want to do is get into a debate about Jesus’ role in the freedom and healing you’ve experienced.
Florence, if there is an all-powerful God of the universe and he wants to have a particular sort of relationship with me which he doesn’t currently have I’m sure he can figure out a way to tell me that personally.
If he doesn’t care enough to interact with me personally then I don’t care either.
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
101Helen wrote
I agree with you Helen. I could never force it or fake it. It isn’t a matter of how much you want it, how much you pray, etc. (I guess I’m not telling you, lol, trying to stave off some unnecessary banter.)
Comment by: Helen
102Doreen, we’re cool - I know you wouldn’t use your beliefs or experiences to push me around.
Comment by: Florence
103Doreen, I’m excited about what happened to you. What a blessing!
Comment by: Jim Henderson
104Helen
Once again thanks for guiding us through a dialog that welcomes difference rather than diverting away from it or debating our way around it
We are thankful for your leadership
Comment by: Rose
105Helen have you seen this site?
http://www.freejesus.org/
Comment by: Florence
106I felt as if you wanted to slap me down when you wrote this. Perhaps you didn’t intend it that way. And perhaps I wasn’t clear in part of what I was trying to say. By no means was I trying to indicate that your relationship with God should ever be limited to believing what other people say! The very personal relationship is a huge part of what (for me, anyway) makes it all worthwhile.
Comment by: Helen
107Thanks Jim.
Rose, I hadn’t seen that - it looks like an interesting site! Thanks for the link.
Florence, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean it to feel like I wanted to slap you down.
The idea that I turned away from God, that he’s waiting for me, that it’s my fault…that does make me angry. Not angry at you, and not exactly angry at God although it may seem that way - more, angry that this view is very unfair, because that hasn’t been my experience.
If God is mad at me for not doing what various Christians think I should do, then yes, I am angry back at him. But if he is not angry, if he understands exactly where I’m at - which seems likely if he has all-knowledge - then I am not angry with him; we have a fine relationship-which-is-not-a-relationship.
I’m angry at a belief system. Not you. I hope you can see that.
Comment by: Stephan
108Doreen said:
I am waiting for the atheists here to say something other than, “Nice story.” As atheists you must either think there is a natural explanation (which I honestly can’t wait to hear), or you must think she is a liar.
I realize most of you are loathe to be disrespectful, but you have allowed her to put forth some rather concrete testimony of the supernatural without challenging it at all. I have heard many times from atheists that there is no evidence of faith healing. Here you have a first-person account.
Maybe this needs to be a new thread. What do you do when someone presents testimony of the supernatural? Do you try to explain it? Do you call the person a liar? Or, as I suspect, do you simply disregard it as unexplained and ignore it? If so, you are living with the same cognitive dissonance that you decry in Christians.
Comment by: Mike O
109The more I pay attention, the more I think we’re not all that diffrent, atheists and Christians. Sure, our beliefs are different, but our defense mechanisms may be quite similar. We accept what we believe, and question (or ignore?) what we don’t. It’s natural, I suppose, but good nonetheless to acknowledge.
Comment by: Helen
110Stephan wrote:
Good idea :) Here it is
Atheist responses to supernatural testimony
Mike, I agree that we have similar defense mechanisms. I also agree it’s good to acknowlege that. Self-awareness is a great thing!
(imo)