Posted by Helen on: 07.23.2007 /
I very much enjoyed being at the Midwest Emergent Gathering last week. I was there for the Thursday night welcome party and for the Friday sessions. I wasn’t able to stay for the Saturday ones. See We did it! (yes you did - and very well!) for Mike Clawson’s detailed write-up of the event, plus links to where other bloggers have written about it.
I think the total attendance was between 150 and 200. That was a size small enough to make it fairly easy to find particular people, yet big enough to have an interesting, diverse attendance.
Almost everyone there was from the Midwest. The gathering was organized by the regional Emergent cohorts, but interestingly a lot of people there had never been to a cohort meeting.
I thought the organizers did a great job. From my perspective it seemed like everything went smoothly. Everything was planned to allow lots of connecting time - I loved that! There were before and after parties and the sessions were timed so there was plenty of chat time in between. After some of the interviews or talks Mike announced that the people who’d just been on mainstage were going to be in a certain room and available to chat with whoever wanted. I thought that was a great idea. There was a board and sheets of paper to create your own workshop and pin it up there to invite people. I went to a created workshop and enjoyed it.
I was a bit nervous about going to a ‘Christian’ event where I’d know hardly anyone. It helped that I saw Kevin when I first arrived, who I’d met and had a fun chat with earlier this year. I was assuming he’d be there and also hoping I’d see him and I already did, in the parking lot of the church where the gathering was hosted.
I needn’t have been worried - everyone was very friendly and open and welcoming. As I talked with people one on one, they were more open than I expected, which made me think perhaps I had misjudged the usefulness of a workshop on how to help lost people like them. I wasn’t sure if I had anything to say to them that was new - they already seemed to understand how to be likeable. When my workshop began, people there were immediately curious about me being ‘almost an atheist’. I think I should have come more prepared to articulate how that is different from what they are and spend time on that. Mike had said it would be fine to tell my story and maybe I should have listened to him.
I think I came across as ‘one of them’ rather than someone different enough that it might be a challenge to connect with me. One person commented that everything I said seemed to line up with what Jesus said and another said I seemed like a follower of Jesus to him. So I should have planned how to show them how I was different from them. I’m sure there are differences - like, to me following Jesus is like following anyone who impresses me. And, the worship parts of the gathering didn’t personally connect with me at all - because of where I’m at, not because they weren’t creatively and well thought out.
I am still fairly new to the Emergent scene - maybe I can learn from this how to be more edgy in a friendly way among Emergent Christians. I’m much more used to conservative Christians who often find plenty that is very edgy about me whether I’m trying to be edgy or not. Last week I was very reminded of that as I interacted about Free Jesus on here and on MyChurch.
The other thing I wanted to do was have a more interactive workshop but I didn’t really achieve that in the end. At the gathering I enjoyed asking other people questions and after a day or so I had a few people noticing I liked that and laughing when I opened my mouth yet again. I’m not sure if the person the questions were directed at always liked them but I tried not to be disruptive or take over. I would have liked someone like that to push back against in my own workshop. Maybe that’s a matter of finding a ‘partner’ ahead of time to work with.
Back to who I met and talked with and spent time with, which, just like at Off The Map’s meeting, was the highlight for me. I really enjoyed getting to know the guys from Jacob’s well a little bit. I hope Art and David’s plans to be life coaches work out. I think they have what it takes to be great at that. I enjoyed meeting the Lewins (including their son), the Nottons and Prangenbergs and seeing the Clawsons again. I wish I had written down the name of the great guy I sat by Thursday evening and in a couple of Friday sessions, who will be writing a PhD comparing innovation and tradition in church movements. I loved Karen Sloan’s energy and I hope that her plans work out for sharing the richness she has found in monastic tradition with whoever is interested in exploring that with her.
I’m glad I had an opportunity to chat with Rebecca (?) over breakfast about her experiences. And the with bookstore guy about how he’s involved redeveloping his needy local community. I enjoyed talking briefly with Denise Van Eck and Ivy Beckwith about what they do. I was interested to see Ben live blogging the event. I wonder whether he did buy flip flops or not. I appreciated his kind words about my workshop. (David’s too) I’m always happy to see John Armstrong and hear what he has to say. (Sorry everyone - there should be more links in this post but I don’t have time to go look them all up right now)
I was glad to meet David Fitch (another David) in person - we’ve e-mailed a little - and pleasantly surprised to find out that he ‘gets’ some of my concerns about emerging Christians. I didn’t have the opportunity to talk with Spencer Burke at Off The Map’s event last November and was very pleased to do so here. I found out that his beliefs and approach are much more like mine than I realized. A big part of mine is “Why does it matter? Why get so serious/exercised about this?” I found out he’s the same way. I didn’t know it was possible for someone to be that laid back who is a ‘professional’ follower of Jesus. I think it’s awesome He said a couple of times that he’s not angry. I think that’s a significant part of how he can achieve being so laid back, since it means he’s not reacting against something or driven by things he doesn’t like/difficult experiences. It also seems like criticism rolls off him like water off a duck’s back because he just laughs it off - in a bemused rather than an unkind way. I should add that I have appreciated that Off The Map folks are not ‘uptight’ about Jesus. But Spencer takes not being uptight to a whole new level I didn’t know existed among people whose vocations are Jesus-related.
Tony Jones’ loss was my gain when I found him outside the hotel Starbucks early Friday morning. He was too polite to say “Go away - I came down here to work/wake up” and let me talk with him for a while. I really appreciated the opportunity to get to know him a little. He is obviously smart and well-read and it meant a lot to me that he treated me as an equal. I didn’t expect that - I am used to working hard to earn the respect of guys who don’t know me and have as much knowledge as he does. To them expecting me to be deferential. He let me not be that way and didn’t get offended. I was interested in the words he said and enjoyed how well he put them together - but I was most struck by the way he interacted with me. That made me think “this guy is authentic and has managed to avoid one of the major disfunctions which pervades the professional Christian world”.
I also was able to talk with Doug Pagitt Thursday evening. His comments about how the church he founded (I’m not allowed to call it ‘his church’) does church were fascinating. They were new to me since I haven’t read any of his books.
One of my favorite moments during sessions was Spencer’s reaction when John Armstrong - the conservative Christian there to be interviewed as an ‘outsider’ - got the right answer to a silly Bible joke, meaning he won a free copy of Spencer Burke’s book “A Heretic’s Guide to Eternity”. Spencer was delighted and said to the whole room something like “I love it! That has to be God or Satan!”
Tony Jones described Emergent this way in his talk: he said “I see the gospel breaking through and tearing down what is concrete on the left (beaurocracy) and on the right (doctrine and absolutes)”. It was interesting to hear what Emergent is to him, in his talk and also when I talked with him one on one.
I needn’t have been nervous about how it would go - I had a great time. If the regional cohorts do this again I would definitely be interested in being there.
Comment by: Eliza
1 07/23/07 6:38 PM | Comment Link |Helen - thanks for telling us about your experience at this conference! I’m glad you got to talk with so many people (and/or, ask so many questions!)
I was going to ask you for more links but the conference webpage, which you linked to at the start of your post, has alot of information & links about the people & churches you mentioned.
It was neat to read on Mike Clawson’s blog, Emerging Pensees, that the idea for this conference arose during a discussion one evening at last fall’s OTM conference in Seattle - and that he expected it not to go well, but was very pleasantly surprised otherwise!
Could you tell us more about your workshop? What was the audience like? What did you tell them, & what did they say or ask? (Even if it turned out not to be as interactive as you’d hoped it would be.) Edited to add: Oops, I forgot that in the “Free Jesus” discussion you already said:
Comment by: Eliza
2 07/23/07 6:39 PM | Comment Link |P.S. I’m amused that “The cicadas are coming” popped up as a “Semi-related post” - !
Comment by: Helen
3 07/23/07 7:04 PM | Comment Link |Happily, the cicadas are over so we didn’t have to deal with them at this conference :-)
I’m not sure if I would do the workshop exactly the same in Seattle. I need to talk with Jim about it when we get closer to the conference. One person in the workshop said “you seem like a follower of Jesus to me” and another said “everything you said seems in line with what Jesus said”. So I’m not sure the ‘almost an atheist’ part came across very strongly. The people in the workshop were friendly but I would have liked to make it more interactive.
Comment by: David H
4 07/23/07 8:29 PM | Comment Link |A post just to say I read this and was very interested in your interactions and insights on this gathering. I have relatives who get on me about being too wishy-washy about my faith just like those emergents.
Comment by: Eliza
5 07/24/07 7:23 AM | Comment Link |For several weeks, the signboard outside an ECLA church near us has read: “If you show compassion, you are following Jesus” (I may not have their exact wording). This seems like the sentiment you ran across in your session, that a person who is nice, thoughtful, helpful, etc, must be (is?) a Jesus-follower.
To me, that’s taking the good things about another person (things one values & likes) & labeling them as if they were exclusive to (& defining of) one’s own group or beliefs. It’s implying, “if you act like I do, you undoubtedly believe what I do” - even if that’s not the case. People can have different role models, different motivations, different creeds if you will, yet seem to act in similar ways. Like, showing compassion. (Looking over what you wrote, it does seem that these folks were qualifying the similarity with “seem” - which the church sign mentioned above doesn’t do.)
I guess it depends on what differences you want to highlight in the discussion, & what similarities, & what you see as the reasons for those differences & similarities, & which differences/similarities are important (or thought to be important, by some) & which are not. (Does that make sense?)
Comment by: Helen
6 07/24/07 8:01 AM | Comment Link |Eliza wrote:
I think you’re right and I think you’ve mentioned people making that assumption with you - that because you’re all those things you must be a Christian.
I would say there’s a difference between being a Christian and a Jesus-follower. I do say I’m a Jesus-follower but all it means is, I try to follow him in doing things I’ve read about him doing which impressed me. I do the same with other people who impress me, whether I know them or read about them in books, whether they are dead or alive or fictional.
I could have made points like this and maybe I should have. I could have been better prepared in that regard. I think maybe after a week of ‘Free Jesus’ I was happy enough to go with people’s assumptions and let them feel I was one of them and not challenge that assumption.
Anyway I expect Hemant did a much better job of representing the differentness of atheism on Saturday than I did in my workshop. Jim is right - it must be because I’m not a real atheist - I’m only trying to be one. (But I’m definitely not a real Christian either, according to most of the definitions of Christian which are in common usage)
Comment by: seekingsomething
7 07/24/07 8:45 AM | Comment Link |It sounds like a fun and interesting conference - I wish I could have been there.
I like the idea of allowing people to create their own workshop if they had things to discuss that were not already covered. I might steal that idea the next time I put on a conference at work :)
Comment by: Helen
8 07/24/07 11:35 AM | Comment Link |ss, I wish you could have been there too!
I’m fairly sure we’re doing the ‘create your own workshop’ thing at Off The Map’s Hear Listen Connect event in November.
Comment by: Rebecca
9 07/24/07 1:41 PM | Comment Link |Helen,
I, too, was a little nervous about showing up on Friday morning when I didn’t know anyone other than Mike, the coordinator. How pleased I was to meet you editing your name tag while I made mine and then to sit down at the table for good conversation until the first session started.
Eliza, maybe it’s the metaphor of following that is upsetting you. It implies intention. I think I might be likely to say something like that to someone in yours or Helen’s shoes but I would mean that your journey and subsequent transformation seem to be headed in the same direction as mine. I think most of us are headed toward the center and I believe that Christ is at that center. You may not. It doesn’t change the journey. How we approach the center and how close we are doesn’t change the fact that most of us have the same destination. This link changed my life a little in regards to that idea when I read it. http://homepages.which.net/~radical.faith/misc/pritchard.htm
Comment by: Mike Clawson
10 07/24/07 3:24 PM | Comment Link |Eliza,
While I can see how you might take that person’s comment in that way, I’m pretty sure they meant quite the opposite (and I was in Helen’s workshop when the comment was made.) Far from saying “if you act like I do, you undoubtedly believe what I do”, what I think they were trying to say is “if you act like Jesus you are following Jesus even if you don’t ‘believe’ in Jesus in the same way I do”.
In other words, they were saying that following Jesus has more to do with how you live than what you believe. I would probably say the same thing.
Peace,
-Mike
Comment by: Helen
11 07/24/07 7:19 PM | Comment Link |Hi Rebecca, I really enjoyed talking with you Friday morning! I’m glad I helped you be less nervous. Funny how I did that even though I considered myself an ‘outsider’!
Mike, I agree with you about what the comment meant. I also think I could have been more prepared to explain what’s different about my way of following Jesus from the other people at the gathering. Since mine has nothing to do with whether Jesus is still alive. And mine has nothing to do with worship. (I assume that’s different from most people there)
Comment by: Eliza
12 07/24/07 7:23 PM | Comment Link |This will probably raise some hackles, which is not my intent - but imo (in my observation) Jesus-following seems to focus on some specific facets of Jesus as portrayed in the NT, and not on other facets.
Is it not “following Jesus” to:
speak harshly to your mother (who doesn’t understand you),
race from village to village (as portrayed especially in Mark),
exorcise demons from sick people,
curse trees for not producing fruit out of season, and
let someone unwittingly take the fall for carrying out a crucial part of a big plan that only you know about?
BICBW…
No-one is perfect (imo). But might I just as well pick another admirable person to commend others for following? How would it go over if I changed the church’s sign to say, “if you practice compassion, you are following Rabbi Hillel? ;-)
Comment by: Mike C
13 07/24/07 8:51 PM | Comment Link |Well, no one except a few extreme literalists would think that following the example of Jesus would mean having to do exactly the same things that he did. In that regard your examples just seem a little silly Eliza. Jesus did those things because they had meaning and a purpose in his context. I am in a different context. Thus for me, following Jesus would mean taking his teachings and example and extending the implications and application into my own unique situation - not just blindly parroting his exact behaviors.
Comment by: Eliza
14 07/25/07 8:05 AM | Comment Link |Yes, I knew my comments would be irksome to some people, not sure that phrasing them differently could change that. And, I’m probably treading on toes at a sensitive time, by posting in this thread on the Midwest Emerging Conference, which you organized, Mike C (congratulations, it sounds like it went very well & was much appreciated by the attendees!).
It seems to me that the message(s) one takes from the 4 gospels depends alot on one’s expectations going into it. If you read the history of Jesus with an eye toward finding evidence of his compassion and inclusion, you will find it in spades. On the other hand, if one read with an eye toward categorizing what he is said to have done & said (you could call it a “jaundiced eye” if you don’t like this aproach), one can find evidence for multiple facets - apocalyptic prophet, faith healer (or route for faith healing), demon exorciser, proponent of social justice & equality, son of God and only route to salvation, hypocrisy-hater, and sometimes-irritable overworked man who was misunderstood by his hometown and family.
That’s my view, observation, & interpretion. I’m not surprised that you disagree vehemently, Mike C, and have a way of discarding the parts that don’t fit with your view. Maybe you’re right and I’m wrong. Or, maybe neither of us - and noone else either - has it figured out completely and accurately. That wouldn’t be a surprise, given the lack of crystal clear directions in the texts.
BTW, I don’t believe I’ve ever called anything you’ve written “silly”, but I think I understand where the sentiment is coming from.
Comment by: Mike Clawson
15 07/25/07 12:48 PM | Comment Link |Eliza,
I’m sorry if I came across more strongly than I intended. I wasn’t “vehemently disagreeing” (I’m having a hard time seeing how my last comment could be interpreted as “vehement”) nor am I “irked” by your comments. Seriously, it’s no big deal.
If anything I just felt like your suggestions were a little unfair, in that I’ve never heard any Christians (even fundamentalists) suggest that we should merely mimic Jesus’ behaviors exactly. It does seem like an unfair argument to just take a laundry list of some of the stranger things Jesus said or did and say that, well, if we’re not cursing fig trees or exorcising demons personally then we must therefore just be picking and choosing the parts of Jesus that we like and ignoring the rest. Personally I don’t discard those parts, I think they’re integral to the story - but if I still don’t go around cursing fruit trees it’s because while such an action would make sense in Jesus context, it doesn’t make as much sense in mine (I don’t think I’ve ever even seen a fig tree). C’mon, give us some credit. Do you really think most Christians are so unintelligent or unnuanced that we’d think being like Jesus would have to mean simply copy-catting his exact behavior?
And I guess I really just don’t see where you’ve gotten the impression that most of us are just discarding those things on the list you’ve mentioned (in fact, I think I’ve preached sermons on most of them in just this past year). Your post had kind of a “gotcha” feel to it, and yet I don’t think your examples really caught us at anything. In fact, most Christians I know would not disregard those passages at all. Maybe we just have a bigger, more complex view of Jesus than you’re giving us credit for.
You said:
Why not all of the above? Do I have to exclude all of those other aspects of Jesus to also say that Jesus was compassionate and inclusive? This is why it felt to me like your post was rather unfair. You’re trying to stick us into an “either/or” mindset (either we believe Jesus was compassionate or else we believe one of these other things) when a lot of Christians I know would say that it’s a both/and. Jesus was compassionate and inclusive, and a faith healer, and an apocalyptic prophet, and a demon exorciser, and a proponent of social justice & equality, and the son of God and means of salvation, and a hypocrisy-hater, and sometimes irritable, overworked and misunderstood. For those of us who think that Jesus really was a real person who really lived, and that the gospel accounts actually record real events, it comes as no surprise that Jesus appears a complex and multi-dimensional individual - i.e. just like a real person would.
Anyhow, again, please don’t interpret what I’m saying as “vehement” or “irked”. I’m not upset and there’s no need to be “sensitive”. We’re just talking.
Peace,
-Mike
Comment by: Eliza
16 07/27/07 6:03 AM | Comment Link |Thanks for your response, & sorry for my delay, swamped at work & home.
I was mistaken in making assumptions about what anyone else believes - a big no-no, I should know better than that!
Here’s a shorter version of my objection to those who kindly say, “if you’re compassionate you are following Jesus”:
(1) “Compassionate” includes but does not require “following Jesus”. Jesus is not the only, or the first, role model for compassion. - though he’s clearly the best-known (in Western culture at least).
(2) “Jesus-follower” includes “compassionate” but, I would guess, is not limited to that trait.
It seems way too simplistic, to me, to state that exhibiting compassion means someone is following Jesus. It demonstrates a Christ-centric view of the world, which I can understand some/many Jesus-followers have, but whatever happened to good ol’ multiculturalism? ;-)
Comment by: Mike Clawson
17 07/27/07 4:06 PM | Comment Link |You’re absolutely right that their comments (whether they were intending to be inclusive or exclusive) definitely demonstrate a Christ-centric worldview. I think that’s unavoidable for people who truly believe that Christ is God and that God is the ground of all existence. In our worldview all people are created in God’s image, and therefore whenever we behave in ways that mimic God’s character (e.g. with compassion) we believe that we are reflecting that divine image in our lives. We believe this is true regardless of whether you believe in God or not. We are all children of God, even if we don’t all recognize that.
This is not at all an attempt to disrespectfully subsume all other beliefs into ours. Rather, it is intended to be a statement of the highest inclusivism. No matter what our differences of belief or practice, Christians believe that all people reflect the divine image, and thus no one should be treated as inferior. The atheist reflects God to me as much as anyone.
In fact, in my case, my belief in the “imago dei” is part of what causes me to value the beliefs of others and look for truth outside of Christianity. If we are all divine image bearers, then I should expect to see God’s truth reflected back to me everywhere - not just from Christian people.
In my view, the role of a Christian then is not so much to be the people who stand up and say “We have the corner on Truth”, but rather to be the ones who go around pointing out and celebrating truth wherever we find it - and especially when we find it outside of Christianity.
Comment by: michaeldanner
18 08/2/07 7:29 AM | Comment Link |Eliza and Mike,
Thanks for this dialog, I find it fascinating and extremely helpful. Don’t want to disrupt your conversation, but I can see where Eliza is coming from. I agree that the ELCA church sign, and the statement made to Helen in the workshop are meant to make people feel included. But if Helen, and others, really wanted to wear the label “Christian” or “follower of Jesus”, they would. The comment and the sign seem more about the needs of the person(s) making the comments, not the recievers of the comments. They need Helen to be a follower of Jesus not just a kind, compassionate person. I think followers of Jesus have a hard time believing that athiests/agnostics are really happy and content, like somehow they must struggle because they don’t believe the truth as we understand it. In my experience, that is not the case. Can’t a person be included on the basis of their common humanity (as you explain well, Mike) without the need to place the “follower of Jesus” label on them?
In a strange way, I come to Eliza’s position on the sign and comment but through the logic of Mike’s last post.
Comment by: Eliza
19 08/5/07 7:18 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for your comments, michaeldanner. I hadn’t responded to Mike C earlier in part because he so eloquently described his view of universal inclusion (which was something like what I thought he might say - we’ve had a number of other discussions over the past 1.5 yrs) and in part because I was leaving town.
What I’m going to say next sounds banal to my own ears (eyes), but here goes. May I suggest that Jesus-followers add “ownership” of the idea with “we believe” phrases like these (italics added for emphasis):
If you practice compassion, you may be following Jesus.
If you practice compassion, we believe you are following Jesus.
We see Jesus in you (or: in your actions).
(The last one stems from the comments of my dad, a former Quaker, who talks about “that of God” he sees - & was taught to see - in every person, even those he can find no other good in.)
Comment by: Rachel
20 08/6/07 9:36 AM | Comment Link |Eliza, I can see how the statement “You are following Jesus” or “You are like Jesus” might not be appreciated by an atheist/agnostic. Perhaps it can sound something like this: “You really do believe what I believe even if you don’t realize it yet and that proves I’m right.” But I think the intent is usually something more like this: “I think you are really wonderful and so I want to pay you what is the highest compliment someone with my belief system can give.”
I think the assumption is that pretty much everyone, regardless of whether they have any supernatural or religious beliefs, considers Jesus to have been a good moral teacher, an excellent role model of love and compassion, an admirable historical figure. So the Christian complimenter is assuming that the atheist/agnostic will receive the statement positively. Of course we all know that assumptions can be problematic, or even disastrous! That’s what I love about this dialogue, the fact that we are taking the time to try and break through those assumptions and really hear each other.
Comment by: Helen
21 08/6/07 10:33 AM | Comment Link |Rachel wrote:
Rachel, I think this was the intent of people in my workshop - they were saying “I want to compliment you” rather than “You’re wrong and I’m right!” I think it would have been more interesting if I’d been ready to respond with ways I think I am different. Maybe next time I can be more prepared for that. Or even make that more my focus (since I won’t have the option of impressing people with my iphone by then - it will be old news :-))
Comment by: Eliza
22 08/7/07 5:03 PM | Comment Link |I’ve been thinking over why it’s hard for me to just accept the intended compliment & move on…in part, for me, I think it’s because I’m left waiting for the other shoe to drop - the “…now we have to SAVE you” part! :-)
Comment by: Helen
23 08/8/07 5:47 AM | Comment Link |Eliza, I love how you’re open to the possibility “it could be me”. I often find it’s not simply me or you but the way our respective ‘issues’ interestingly get all tangled up together.
After something has happened a number of times it’s not easy shake off the expectation of it happening again.
For me, being at the MEG was a great reminder and helpful caution “Christians can be very different from each other even though they all use that word to describe themselves.” It’s something I assume I know in my head, but when I was at the meeting I found myself not having quite the interactions I expected, which means I do continue to slip into presuppositions which are inaccurate.
Perhaps for me the context was a factor too - this was only days after interacting with conservative Christians who definitely had lots of presuppositions about me on my ‘Free Jesus’ post.