Posted by Helen on: 07.24.2007 /
In a comment on Free Jesus, Stephan wrote:
Doreen said “My pain is STILL gone.”
I am waiting for the atheists here to say something other than, “Nice story.” As atheists you must either think there is a natural explanation (which I honestly can’t wait to hear), or you must think she is a liar.
I realize most of you are loathe to be disrespectful, but you have allowed her to put forth some rather concrete testimony of the supernatural without challenging it at all. I have heard many times from atheists that there is no evidence of faith healing. Here you have a first-person account.
Maybe this needs to be a new thread. What do you do when someone presents testimony of the supernatural? Do you try to explain it? Do you call the person a liar? Or, as I suspect, do you simply disregard it as unexplained and ignore it? If so, you are living with the same cognitive dissonance that you decry in Christians.
Comment by: Helen
1 07/24/07 12:47 PM | Comment Link |Stephan, isn’t there some middle ground? I certainly wouldn’t call Doreen a liar, neither am I ignoring and disregarding what she said.
Can’t I say “I don’t know how it happened” and leave it at that?
When I used to go to church “I don’t know” was an acceptable answer when someone said “Why did [God let] my baby die?” People weren’t expected to leap to the conclusion that God doesn’t care or doesn’t exist.
In the same way I hope you don’t expect us to leap to the conclusion that God exists just because there are things we can’t explain, like, why Doreen’s pain went away. (I’m very happy it did go away. I much prefer that kind of unexplained event than why someone’s baby died)
Comment by: Stephan
2 07/24/07 12:58 PM | Comment Link |Helen, your position sounds like one of my options above:
You aren’t ignoring Doreen, but you aren’t dealing with the ramifications of her statement, either. If what she is saying is true, it is significant.
When Christians say there are some things we can’t explain, atheists shake their heads and wonder how we can base our beliefs on something we don’t understand. But if you simply ignore things you can’t explain, aren’t you doing the same thing?
Atheists are always asking for evidence, for first-person accounts of miracles. Well, here it is, and you are the only atheist who has commented on it. My guess is that others either don’t want to offend Doreen by calling her on it or they simply don’t know what to say, so they will ignore it.
Atheists pat themselves on the back over intellectual honesty, but this strikes me as anything but.
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
3 07/24/07 2:02 PM | Comment Link |I would not expect responses to fall so neatly into “Doreen’s a liar” or “so there is a God”.
Of course I would take exception if anyone called me a liar. I would also take exception if anyone who was not a believer suddenly became one based only on my story.
I would expect these kind of responses:
- your back was due to stop hurting soon anyway, and it just happened to stop when your friend said those words
- there’s a medical reason why your pain stopped, but I’m not a physician so I can’t say why
- I’m happy for you, and don’t need to know how/why it happened by whom
- an unposted response of some sort (hmm, this gives me something to think about; hmm, that girl is whacked)
:)
poetcomic.blogspot.com
Comment by: April Terry
4 07/24/07 2:08 PM | Comment Link |My legal-esque husband talks about “the preponderence of evidence” within the law. This means that any one piece of evidence may not add up to anything, but many pieces of evidence adds up to a probability of an event.
This makes me always wonder how atheists, then, metabolize the experiences that millions of Christians believe they have had during their journeys in faith.
Wishful thinking? Misled? Lies? Or do the experiences become the prerponderence of evidence that leads to some part of nature/life that science has yet to discover?
Comment by: Rose
5 07/24/07 2:32 PM | Comment Link |Excerpt from an Essay by Mary Heimann
Christianity in Western Europe from the Enlightenment
A World History of Christianity p. 458
I thought this paragraph from my reading for course work was interesting in light of the conversation and it is a welcome diversion from my studies.
At some point between the seventeenth century and the present day there occurred an important shift in the way in which the Christian message was viewed by most Western Europeans. The most succinct way of expressing the contrast between the general attitude of mind of the 1690’s and that of the 1900’s would be to say that in the late seventeenth century Christianity was generally presumed to be true unless there seemed good reasons to doubt; whereas in the late twentieth century Christianity was usually presumed to be untrue unless good reasons could be given to believe. Exactly how and when the burden of proof shifted from the non-Christian to the Christian position is not the sort of question that can be answered precisely, let alone authoritatively, by any historian.
Helen - as a Christian, I often have to say “I don’t know how or I don’t know why” and leave it at that.
Comment by: Atheist responses to the supernatural | Ebay Selling Tips
6 07/24/07 3:24 PM | Comment Link |[...] Atheist responses to the supernatural [...]
Comment by: Karen
7 07/24/07 6:04 PM | Comment Link |Couldn’t we turn the question around and ask the very same thing of Christians?
Unless you’re willing to accept that all experiential stories point to equally valid higher truths, it’s inconsistent to believe that just one set do. Or to believe that just those that are most dramatic do. Or that just the faith with the largest number of experiences reported are true.
That’s the major realization that pushed me out the door of evangelical Christianity.
Comment by: Rachel
8 07/24/07 6:21 PM | Comment Link |I agree that there is a middle ground. Doreen says, “This was my authentic experience” and I say, “I believe that you had that experience.” I can’t test Doreen’s experience in a laboratory, I’m not going to base my world view or my theology on it (as Doreen said she wouldn’t want us to do), I believe that Doreen is giving us a truthful account of what she experienced. I think her experience is wonderful and I’m very happy for her. I neither accept it as concrete evidence of the existence of God, miracles, etc nor do I disbelieve or disregard her account. I simply accept that it was her experience.
Comment by: Helen
9 07/24/07 7:07 PM | Comment Link |Stephan, it seems like you’re appealing to atheists not to use a double standard. I’m fine with that. I don’t think the way I deal with Doreen’s experience is intellectually dishonest but I also don’t accuse Christians of intellectual dishonesty when they don’t abandon their belief in God because of people who aren’t healed. So I don’t think I have a double standard.
Rose thanks for the quote.
Comment by: Pither
10 07/24/07 11:41 PM | Comment Link |1. Does the Christian’s willingness to believe that Doreen’s story was supernatural translate into equal willingness to believe that common reports of witch doctor, new ager, or Hindu healings are also supernatural? If not, then how would a believer respond to the same story, only replaced with “In the name of Vishnu, I command you to be healed!”?
2. What is Doreen’s healer’s batting average? I assume Doreen is not the first person the healer has tried this on.
3. Is Jesus’ healing power limited to ambiguous things like mysterious back pain? In other words, has Doreen’s healer cleared out the cancer ward at any local children’s hospitals lately? Surely Jesus would want that. We all would. Not to trivialize Doreen’s back pain, but there are certainly more worthy and less ambiguous places where her healer should be kept plenty busy.
4. Has this healer - or any faith healer - ever healed a single amputee? Why not? Does Jesus not love amputees? http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com
5. If Doreen’s healer can replicate this once in front of James Randi, there’s a cool million dollars to be had. Surely that million would go a long way at one of their favorite charities. http://www.randi.org/research/index.html
Comment by: Karen
11 07/25/07 12:07 AM | Comment Link |Exactly, Rachel. This is the only respectful and honest way to respond, in my view.
Comment by: Mike O
12 07/25/07 12:34 AM | Comment Link |I understand why atheists wouldn’t do a 180 based on one person’s experience. And I understand why a lot of Christians don’t do a 180 based on the evidence we’re presented to the contrary.
But what would be surprising would be for an atheist to say, “Hmm … that IS interesting … it COULD BE that this whole Christianity thing has some merit.” Or at least to say that you understand a little bit better where Christians are coming from when we believe what we do.
Isn’t that part of the point of the blogs here at Off The Map - to see the value in the other guy’s position and to understand why they cling to it?
When I read Siamang, it often makes me say, “OK, good point - I understand atheists a bit better now.”
When I read Hement and he says (at the end of his book) that it would take a bonafide miracle to convert him, my initial reaction (fair or not) was “Nah, he’d probably explain that away, too.”
Then I see this point being made and it’s just shrugged off as “I’m happy for you,” that does seem a little closed-minded. I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me, I’d at least like to see an atheist say “Hmm .. I get what you’re saying,” and mean it. After all, however you respond to a story like Doreen’s, it IS a good point for Christianity. Or at least, for a god.
Comment by: Stephan
13 07/25/07 4:24 AM | Comment Link |Pither asks:
Actually, I’ve said before that God can work different ways in different cultures, and I would not be at all surprised to find Him under another name. Please provide such an example and find out how we would respond.
So now one miracle is not enough. Everyone has to be healed in order for God to prove himself. Nice.
This is, I believe, why Jesus refused to produce miracles on demand in His day. He knew that people would not be convinced by them.
When I started this conversation a few years ago one of my “misconceptions” about atheists is that they didn’t want to believe, and that they would avoid evidence of the existence of God. All you’ve done hear is confirm that so-called misconception.
Like Mike and Doreen, I don’t expect anyone to change their beliefs on one testimony, but maybe you could take a little more serious look that just saying, “Nice story.”
Comment by: Helen
14 07/25/07 5:07 AM | Comment Link |Stephan wrote:
Stephan, I don’t see what you’ve said that doesn’t equally apply to Christians. I don’t know any Christian who seems eager to stop believing, who hears about unanswered prayer or people not healed and says “Yay - finally a reason not to believe any more!”
Your approach to atheists seems to be “Admit you’re no better than you accuse us of being!” - in my experience that approach doesn’t work very well.
In my experience, a friendly approach more like “Hey we Christians sure have our weaknesses and foibles - how about you atheists?” is more likely to encourage atheists to open up rather than entrench and get defensive.
Mike, I think this is what your comment is about.
The whole point of this approach, it seems to me (and this comment is to everyone) is, it starts with me being vulnerable. It doesn’t start with me demanding you to be vulnerable - then, maybe I will be too.
Maybe that’s too threatening - maybe instead we can take baby steps in that direction, doing our best to be friendly and not invalidate each other.
Stephan, you said atheists are confirming your so-called misconception of them. Do you think it’s possible you might be confirming any of their so-called misconceptions of Christians? One of the problems with online communication is that the one comment someone reads might be the one which makes them think “I knew it! All Christians/atheists/fill-in-the-blanks are [fill-in-another-blank]s!” People aren’t necessarily going to stick around and get to know each other, although I’m glad some people on our Off The Map blogs have done that - including you, of course. I know how frustrating this can be at times. Thanks for staying anyway.
Comment by: Helen
15 07/25/07 5:17 AM | Comment Link |Pither, thanks for your comments. I agree with your points.
To you and everyone else: I think that Christians, atheists and everyone else’s are heavily invested in maintaining their current belief system. I think this is human nature - it’s explainable from a psychological standpoint - it’s more comfortable to maintain a belief than to change one.
In practice that means that the batting average high enough for me to justify my belief system, is lower than the batting average you need to change your belief system.
This is why Christians and atheists will never agree on ‘this should make you believe what I believe’. The bar is at a different level. I don’t think it means some or all of us are intellectually dishonest.
Comment by: Stephan
16 07/25/07 5:49 AM | Comment Link |Helen, I’m sorry if I seem a little grumpy on this point, but I have heard so many times from atheists that if they saw one miracle it would be enough to convince them that God might exist. Now that they are confronted with the possibility the bar is raised. Instead of “one verifiable miracle” we are talking about a batting average. If God does it once, He has to repeat in order for anyone to be convinced. It strikes me as someone who is more concerned with protecting their beliefs (as you noted) than in being open minded.
I think it’s fair to hold someone up to the standard they impose on others. Atheists often talk about being open minded and following the evidence, but this seems like a time when the evidence may lead someone other than where they want to go, so it gets swept under the rug.
To be fair, I’m sure I do the same thing. As a bonus, I’m an amputee who has not been healed. While that has caused me to ask some tough questions, it has not caused me to lose faith. I have seen far too many other miracles to let this one setback sway me. Maybe for atheists, you have seen too many setbacks to let one miracle sway you.
Comment by: Helen
17 07/25/07 6:29 AM | Comment Link |Stephan wrote:
Hi Stephan, yes, I think this is a great summary of how it is. And yes, your hand - of course; thank you for reminding me. You have had to process not being healed in a very personal way. I understand the process of doing that - I don’t call it cognitive dissonance - I call it faith in God. Even to this day and even though I don’t end up there myself these days.
By the way I really appreciated your ‘voice of reason’ last week when I was getting the visitor comments on Free Jesus.
I expect we all get frustrated sometimes - I know I do!
Comment by: Stephan
18 07/25/07 6:46 AM | Comment Link |Helen, thanks for your kind words and understanding. I am pleased to call you a friend even though we have never met. I really am planning to change that one day (the part about never meeting, not the part about calling you a friend).
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
19 07/25/07 7:38 AM | Comment Link |Pither wrote
You are so WRONG on this. This was not “ambigious” back pain. I’ve had back troubles since I was a teenager, and have the scars and MRIs to prove it. Chronic pain can be as bad physically, psychologically, emotionally, and spiritually as anything else. Many in my situation commit suicide or OD just to stop the pain.
If my friend had said, “You are healed in the name of this magic mushroom,” it would not have affected my beliefs.
I didn’t ask about my friend’s “batting average.” Funny you use that analogy. A good batter misses 7 out of 10 times, so I suppose if my friend’s words do not heal 7 out of 10 times, she’s still a fantastic healer.
Comment by: Karen
20 07/25/07 8:32 AM | Comment Link |Mike O.
Who says atheists don’t have that response when presented with personal testimonies like Doreen’s? I didn’t see anyone on this blog discounting her experience or lecturing her about what it actually WAS or WASN’T - did you?
I’ve had many Christians who don’t know me from a hole in the ground conclude smugly that my 30 years in church weren’t authentic, or “didn’t count.” I could never marginalize someone else like that.
People tell me personal miracle stories quite often. I just heard about one involving The Secret, in fact. They always make me more curious about the movement behind the miracle, but so far I haven’t found any of them compelling enough to chuck skepticism.
Comment by: Rachel
21 07/25/07 8:39 AM | Comment Link |Absolutely! Personally I struggle with mild chronic pain caused by fibromyalgia. Just dealing with a low level of soreness and stiffness on a daily basis can cause quite a bit of fatigue and discouragement. I truly cannot imagine what it would be like to deal with severe pain day after day. I am so thrilled that you have experienced this healing, Doreen!
Comment by: Stephan
22 07/25/07 9:06 AM | Comment Link |Karen said:
I didn’t hear any lecturing, but that was because I heard almost nothing at all. Skeptics want proof. Doreen provided some rather compelling first-person testimony and it was met with almost complete silence. The only responses were something like, “Nice story” and, “Thanks for sharing,” but there was nothing that indicated that anyone really did much thinking about it.
What this tells me is that you are really not looking for evidence of truth, you are looking for evidence that backs up what you already believe. Atheists accuse Christians of this all of the time, while apparently doing it themselves. That’s what bothered me about this lack of exchange.
Comment by: seekingsomething
23 07/25/07 9:42 AM | Comment Link |Sorry to join this conversation late :)
I just firstly wanted to comment that personally I don’t see ‘Christians’ as a homogeneous group, all of one mind about ‘Atheists’. Or vice versa. So if this blog is to be a place for conversation and exploration then for me it has to be one-on-one or one-on-the-group here. I don’t see how anyone could safely draw conclusions about the whole of a population when on this blog n= approx 7 on average, for each group who engage in each discussion thread… So for that reason I want to clarify that my thoughts and opinions are just my own :)
Personally, yes, on reading Doreen’s post, I had alternative thoughts about what might have caused Doreen to experience the ‘healing’ she described. Doreen, you listed most of them pretty well and I am grateful for your understanding that I might have that range of perspectives ;) As someone who considers herself neither a Christian nor an Atheist but a Seeker, I can also add that I consider it a real possibility (and a testable(?) hypothesis) that you may have been healed by a Living God. But because I don’t know you and because I have so many hypotheses waiting on my ‘to be tested’ list right now, I simply haven’t prioritised an enquiry into your situation at this time… though I’m just as pleased to meet with you here as anyone else and am pleased to hear that you are feeling well :)
Stephan, I can honestly say that it had never occured to me initially that Doreen might be a liar. However, given that I’ve never met Doreen and that this is an internet forum, I’d hope that you and others and Doreen herself would probably agree and not be offended that, certainly, and as far as I can tell from my current experience: ‘Doreen’ may well be a ninety year old man who has lived a life of perfect and sparkling health and comes here simply to confuse us all for reasons of ‘his’ own understanding. That’s not what I really believe and not what I want to believe, but apart from those of us that have met face to face, it seems to me that there is really very little that the rest of us ‘know’ about each other. But one really important reason I’d not get worked up enough to call Doreen a liar or otherwise here is that, well, even if Doreen is a 90 yr old man kidding us along, that would no more disprove to me that there is NO God that heals, than Doreen’s testimony adequately proves the opposite, IYSWIM??
Stephan, you said:
“Atheists are always asking for evidence, for first-person accounts of miracles. Well, HERE IT IS (my capitals),….. My guess is that others either don’t want to offend Doreen by calling her on it or they simply don’t know what to say, so they will ignore it.”
Speaking only for myself, I can say honestly: given that I currently have NO evidence at all that Doreen even exists, let alone that she has or hasn’t experienced healing, I’m afraid this doesn’t meet my criteria for ‘evidence’. For me, the evidence isn’t yet here… In order to make any comment at all on Doreen’s position I would need to verify that she exists and that something physical has happened that is hard to explain by any natural means.
For my part: Should I ever get the privilege to meet Doreen then would I take her claim seriously and be interested to hear more??: Yes absolutely! I’d take it from there and make my enquiries personaly with Doreen.
Would I call Doreen a liar if I could not accept her ‘healing’ as being of God? Nope, firstly (and very importantly) because that would be downright rude and my mother would be ashamed of me :) but secondly, nope absolutely because my having a different understanding to Doreen doesn’t necessarily make her a liar. I might be worng. She might be mistaken, etc etc. It would be a huge assumption to call her a liar!
If I don’t accept it as being a God given healing and I don’t call Doreen a liar then why would that be? Well, Stephan, frankly I think there are more alternatives than the either/or that you started from. Coming from a background in psychology, I personally think that pain is a complex matter and there are ways of understanding the experience of relief from pain than the single conclusion that it can only be healed by God. But that is my perspective as a psychology graduate - it isn’t derived from my spiritual beliefs… I have absolutely no idea whether Helen would agree with me because knowing that Helen is an Atheist doesn’t tell me what her views on psychology are.. And I would imagine that ANYONE who sympathised with my views would probably do so from a persepctive of a fellow ‘psychologist’ regardless of whether they were ‘christian’ or ‘Atheist’. That would be a whole new discussion we could get into there, but my point I guess is that as a Seeker I personally would probably take the time to get into a respectful discussion with Doreen, and allow the outcome of that discussion and exploration to to influence my further thinking about God.
My agenda in being here is not to side with ‘Helen and the Atheists’ or to fight with ‘Stephan and the Christians’ - it’s just to explore and think and to share with anyone who is of a similar ‘thinking’ disposition :)
Comment by: Stephan
24 07/25/07 10:06 AM | Comment Link |seekingsomething, thanks for your insightful comments. I agree that Doreen could be a 90-year-old man, although that would come as quite a shock to her partner. I don’t expect someone just reading her for the first time to accept what she says on face value, but having read her on-line for a while I have come to respect and trust her. I expect that Helen and several others feel the same way.
I agree also that there may be many explanations for her healing, but I think an honest person would have to admit that divine intervention certainly makes the list of possibilities.
Comment by: seekingsomething
25 07/25/07 10:14 AM | Comment Link |Just spat my coffee out at the comment about Doreen’s partner! Thanks for the reply. Divine intervention certainly makes for MY list of possibilities - but I still don’t think that someone who doesn’t share my view is necessarily being dishonest - and I can’t help but wonder if the suggestion might even put off that someone from engaging in conversation with you…? What do you think?
Comment by: Stephan
26 07/25/07 10:54 AM | Comment Link |Yeah, you may be right. Again, I think it’s the familiarity thing. Those who know me online (Helen, Siamang, etc.) may not be turned off by it (or they may be, I don’t know), but those who don’t know me may turn right around and walk away. I try to be engaging, but there are times that I can’t help myself.
This one got to me because I have heard the “one verifiable miracle” thing from atheists quite a few times, and now when they have one potentially in front of them they take no notice. It’s like a line in the sand, and once you cross it they just draw a new line as if the first one never existed.
Comment by: Rachel
27 07/25/07 10:57 AM | Comment Link |You have good point, seekingsomething. I guess that in the case of most of the posters here, I’m taking it on faith that they are who they say they are and not some alter ego invented for blogging purposes (hmmm…that could actually be kind of fun…). Although I can assure everyone that Helen really does exist as I have met her and she is a charming lady with red hair and a British accent. :-)
he-he! I used to be part of an email loop where we used the abbreviation “SOMCATS!” which stood for “Spitting Out My Coffee At The Screen!”
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
28 07/25/07 11:05 AM | Comment Link |Jim - are you there? Can you testify that I’m not a 90-year old man?
ROFLMAO!
Thanks seekingsomething - I enjoyed your posting.
p.s. I’m a 90-year old man on Second Life. JUST KIDDING!!!
Comment by: Mike O
29 07/25/07 12:11 PM | Comment Link |Helen said in #14
What does “work very well” mean? Do you mean conversion? Because I doubt conversion was the point. But if the goal is to level the playing field, I think it is a good approach.
I guess it depends on what you mean by “work.” Work to do what?
It’s an especially interesting comment given that you followed it up with this …
You just did what you said doesn’t “work very well” for Stephen.
Comment by: Mike O
30 07/25/07 12:26 PM | Comment Link |Rachel said in #27
I’ve met “Rachel.” He’s a pretty good guy.
Comment by: Mike O
31 07/25/07 12:28 PM | Comment Link |OK, I’m kidding.
Comment by: Mike O
32 07/25/07 12:33 PM | Comment Link |There have been a couple of comments leaning towards the angle of “why doesn’t everybody get healed.”
It’s a good question on the surface, but think about it … if everybody got healed, what would that make God? Not to mention that “my healing” isn’t the point. It’s a bigger story than that, and in the big story, some people get healed and some don’t. Some “deserve” it, and some don’t. Some people seem to have a knack/gift for it and some don’t. I don’t know why, but if it were anything different, God would be little more than my cabana boy who has to do what I say or it’s coming out of his tip. And that’s certainly not right, either.
Do you give your kids everything they want? Should you?
Comment by: Helen
33 07/25/07 12:52 PM | Comment Link |My apologies to Stephan if I did the same thing.
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
34 07/25/07 12:59 PM | Comment Link |I wish everyone could attend the conference in November, get in a big circle, and sing Kumbyya, and when it comes to “My Lord” we can all substitute whatever we want
My Goddess
My I’m Not Sure
My Reality
My Goodness
My Bad
etc.
Wouldn’t that be SPECIAL?
:)
Comment by: Stephan
35 07/25/07 1:14 PM | Comment Link |Helen, no problem. I took no offense. I’m sure there are times I show the illogical, judgmental narrow-minded aspects of Christianity.
Comment by: Rachel
36 07/25/07 5:20 PM | Comment Link |Mike, you stinker! You’re gonna be the one in need of some divine healing when I get my hands on you! ;-)
Comment by: Rachel
37 07/25/07 5:36 PM | Comment Link |Actually, I have to say that Mike is a very good sport. After all he is a pretty darn conservative guy and when we met at the 2006 conference, I fairly assaulted him with my left wing, anti-poverty diatribe. And we are still friends. :-)
Comment by: Mike O
38 07/25/07 5:42 PM | Comment Link |FWIW, the “One” campaign you were/are involved in is something we are getting on board with at my house.
I’m not completely heartless.
(OK, maybe a little, but not completely!)
Comment by: Keith
39 07/26/07 6:55 AM | Comment Link |Stephan,
Just wanted to say how much I appreciate you. The honesty with which you raise questions is admirable. For someone who cares deeply about friends who don’t share beliefs, it is always personally risky to push for an answer on a point. I respect you for pushing for a response to Doreen’s testimony. Thank you. Even after Helen suggested you might be confirming some atheists’ misconceptions of Christians, you continued … again, much respect.
Stephan - do not answer this question if it is inappropriate for me to ask - how do you respond to the suggestions made most recently by Pither regarding God not healing amputees? Since at least one website considers unhealed amputation to be most unreconcilable with God’s existence, how do you believe in God without him regenerating your hand?
Perhaps I am projecting some of my own emotion onto Mike O. and Stephan, but I wonder if some of us long-term Christian posters sometimes get annoyed that atheists seem to move the line in the sand. As hoped, I personally have been able to listen, understand, and grow much through my time here. This understanding has been my goal in chatting at off-the-map, not converting others. However, I have not shaken my desire to see Helen, Siamang, Karen, Eliza, and others become followers of Jesus Christ (Perhaps I should have been able to, but I have not). It is this desire that is frustrated when the line in the sand is moved. Just trying to let you all in to understand a little about how one particular Christian thinks.
Thanks for everything, guys. Great jokes all around.
Comment by: Stephan
40 07/26/07 8:53 AM | Comment Link |Keith, thanks for the props and the question. I have no problem talking about the questions that have arisen due to my injury.
In short, here is my theology on this - shit happens.
To expand a bit, I don’t believe God necessarily has a reason for my suffering or a long term goal, I just believe that it is something awful that happened to me. God may have had nothing more to do with it than He did with the fly that landed on my desk a few minutes ago. Or He may have. I have not way of knowing.
I believe, however, that good can come from it, and has. I learned a great deal about how much God’s people take care of each other, and I have learned about perseverance. Many of my friends have been much more careful with power saws since my accident, and who knows how many of them may still have all of their fingers since I lost mine.
I can continue to believe because, even though I have not gotten my miracle, I have seen others who have. God may have reasons for healing some and not others. As Mike noted above, we do not give our children everything they want, even when they want something good. We may have something better in mind for them that they will not find out about until later.
And while Pither might want to see whole cancer wards cleared, I say that if one person is healed, then healing is possible.
I guess it all boils down to this - despite the fact that we live in a world where suffering exists, I have hope, because I have seen God at work.
Comment by: Stephan
41 07/26/07 9:47 AM | Comment Link |I responded earlier, but my post is not here. Maybe because I used a naughty word. I’ll use a euphemism this time.
In short, here is my theology of suffering (with editing to see if it gets posted this time) - Poo happens. (I like the original version better - it has more effect.)
I do not believe that God orchestrates events to achieve His ends. He allows things to run their natural course. In my case, I stuck my hand in a blade rotating at 300 rpm. In accordance with natural laws, it cut right through my fingers. God may have had nothing more to do with it than He does with the fly that just landed on my desk.
I believe, however, that God can use it for good. I learned a great deal about how God’s people care for each other. I learned about generosity. I learned about perseverance. Many of my friends learned about power tool safety. I set myself up for a future career as a shop teacher or a hand model at Home Depot.
I can carry on in my faith because, even though I have not received my miracle, I have seen others who have. Just because God does not choose to heal me does not mean that He is mean spirited, or that He does not exist. Like Mike said above, we do not give our children everything they ask for, even when they ask for something good. We may have something better in mind.
This is a bit outside the box, but maybe God can’t always heal. Maybe the laws He created when he set up the universe prevent Him from always interjecting His short-term will.
Pither may want a cancer ward to be cleared, but I say that if one person is healed, then healing is possible. I continue to have faith because I have seen God at work, and that gives me hope.
Comment by: Stephan
42 07/26/07 10:18 AM | Comment Link |Sure, now both of my posts show up. Imagine my embarrassment.
Comment by: Karen
43 07/26/07 11:53 AM | Comment Link |Stephan, it happens to the best of us. I could write a whole post about embarrassing online/email scrapes I’ve gotten into, or heard about from friends.
(Hmmm … maybe that’d be a fun thread for next week!? I’ll think about that one. After all, while the “cat” is away, we mice might as well play - right? ;-))
Anyway, back on topic:
I don’t think anyone’s moving the lines around, Stephan. But first let me apologize in advance to Doreen - I don’t mean to discount or discredit your healing experience, Doreen, and I am a big fan of your gracious attitude here. I think you rock! And I trust that you’re who you say you are, because of the consistency of your position and the length of time you’ve been posting here. Even if I didn’t, I’d still respect you and treat you politely.
Okay, here I go:
Doreen’s experience is not a “verifiable miracle” for those of us sitting here on the other sides of computer screens in various parts of the country. We have no access to her medical records, her doctor’s opinion, or any kind of evidence that might lend itself to verification. Even if we did, there are lots of explanations for why back pain - even chronic back pain - comes and goes. Many “miracle” cures that have happened as a result of faith healers are later discounted for many, many reasons.
Even cancer sometimes goes away spontaneously. This has been medically documented, and it’s not necessarily because someone’s praying for healing. Medical science- particularly when it comes to genetics - is still basically in its infancy when you look at the historical record. We often don’t understand why people get disease, why they get worse or why they get better.
So if I were to accept Doreen’s experience as proof positive of god’s existence, I’d also have to accept every healing story I heard as proof positive of whatever caused that healing: Crystals, positive energy, vortexes, mudras, etc. Do you see what I mean? I’d become what James Randi calls a “credophile” - someone who believes in everything. I can’t be that kind of person, it’s totally not in my nature to be that.
What happened to Doreen is called “anecdotal evidence” for a belief system. She accepts that evidence, and that’s her prerogative. I’m not going to be an a**hole and challenge her about that. Frankly, other atheists would have jumped all over her about it, and if she’d posted her experience at some other sites I read, she would’ve gotten pushback on it and some of it probably would’ve been nasty.
But we don’t have that kind of atmosphere here. I think because that’s not the kind of site that Helen has wanted to create at CaTE.
I will be posting more on anecdotal evidence next week, so stay tuned.
Comment by: Rachel
44 07/26/07 6:40 PM | Comment Link |Stephan, actually for some mysterious and inexplicable reason both your posts ended up in the spam-catcher until I liberated them earlier. I think the spam-catcher is a bit under the weather today because I found your perfectly legit posts in there but it let through two spam posts that I had to delete off the blog - one advertising a hotel and one advertising porn! Hmmmm…perhaps we should lay hands on the spam-catcher?
Comment by: Mike O
45 07/27/07 2:49 AM | Comment Link |Stephen, do you have any idea how profound that is?? I’m being serious.
We spend all this energy on why God does or doesn’t do whatever. Or IF there’s a God, things would or wouldn’t work the way they do.
We try try to make sense out of everything and forget that, well, shit happens.
Why does this person suffer and that person doesn’t? I don’t know …
Why does this thing prosper and that one doesn’t? I don’t know …
Why do good people die in car crashes? I don’t know …
What if there’s a HUGE “SH factor” that can’t be put in a box, and the whole purpose is for God to help us through it? Could he stop it? Could he fix it? Of course … I think he could. But if he did, wouldn’t that somehow mess up the whole dynamic He’s after in loving people in a world that needs it?
You may think I’m kidding, but I’m not … this is deep, man. Very deep. PROFOUND, even.
Comment by: Mike O
46 07/27/07 2:58 AM | Comment Link |Stephen, your posts in 40 and 41 are amazing. My wife and I don’t quite see eye to eye on the nature of God sometimes, particularly when it comes to why things happen, or whether God “did it” or “allowed it.” It makes for some good-natured sparring, actually.
But the way you explained yourself in the 2nd post was VERY helpful to me. The only thing I would add to this statement …
is this … and SOMETIMES he does a miracle! And when he does (and maybe when he doesn’t?) then maybe there is some end he wants to acheive. But that doesn’t mean shit doesn’t happen.
In fact, I’m GLAD God caused your original post to get caught in the spam-catcher so that His purpose could be fulfilled in my life!
(OK, that last paragraph was a little tongue-in-cheek if you didn’t pick up on that!)
Comment by: Mike O
47 07/27/07 9:40 AM | Comment Link |I am reminded of this insightful quote from the great theologian, Mick Jagger
Comment by: Stephan
48 07/27/07 9:59 AM | Comment Link |Between Keith and Mike O. I think my head might explode from an over-inflated ego.
Comment by: Mike O
49 07/27/07 10:04 AM | Comment Link |If it helps bring you down, I’m probably dead if I slip and use the S-word in front of my wife.
Comment by: Rachel
50 07/27/07 11:24 AM | Comment Link |Mike, just don’t tell your wife that the bad influence is coming from us or she might not let you go to the conference this year. ;-) BTW, are you bringing Zach again?
Comment by: Stephan
51 07/27/07 11:31 AM | Comment Link |I’m OK with the S-word, but if I ever dropped the F-bomb I would be sleeping on the couch.
Comment by: Mike O
52 07/27/07 12:50 PM | Comment Link |We can’t - He leaves for college at the end of August and I used all my vacation time already.
Comment by: Doreen A Mannion
53 07/27/07 12:51 PM | Comment Link |Stephan wrote:
You are amazing.
(But please DON’T let it go to your head, LOL.)
Comment by: Stephan
54 07/27/07 1:07 PM | Comment Link |Doreen, thanks, but I actually preferred the version that described by future career options.
Come to think of it, I’m glad my first post got delayed. That second one is a keeper.
(oops, now it is going to my head.)
Comment by: Rachel
55 07/27/07 2:32 PM | Comment Link |Oh, dang! We’ll miss you guys! But I’ll be sure to wear my “Who Would Jesus Bomb?” t-shirt in your honor. ;-)
Comment by: Mike O
56 07/27/07 10:56 PM | Comment Link |[set eye_roll_mode=on]
[set jaw_drop_mode=on]
Who would Jesus bomb?
[set eye_roll_mode=off]
[set jaw_drop_mode=off]
[set head_shake_mode=on]
[set just_let_it_go_man_mode=on]
Gosh, it’s almost like I was really there! That was AWESOME!
Comment by: Rachel
57 07/30/07 10:49 AM | Comment Link |Hey, is that some kind of nerdy computer programmer humor? :-)