Posted by Helen on: 08.29.2007 /
Phil Johnson of Pyromaniacs asked me a question in a blog comment that I thought was quite interesting. Here’s his question and my answer. If any of you feel I have misrepresented the Emergent/emerging church (or Off The Map) in my response to him, feel free to say so here. If you decide to post a comment on his blog I recommend reading the rules first because they do delete comments and ban people who violate their posting rules.
Phil wrote:
Do most of those who identify with the Emerging/Emergent conversation seem to want to try to help you regain your faith, or would you say they spend more energy encouraging you to feel comfortable with your doubts?
That’s a serious question. I’m not trying to start an argument. I’m interested in a candid answer.
That’s a serious question. I’m not trying to start an argument. I’m interested in a candid answer.
Phil, I’m happy to give you a serious answer. Especially since this is one of the more interesting questions any Christian has asked me lately (no offense intended towards anyone else who asked me a great question which isn’t presently springing to mind)
I still don’t know what to call you so I’ll go with VCC – Very Conservative Christian – to avoid picking fights with people in the EC who self-identify as Conservative Christians.
On the whole, VCCs and ECCs (Emerging/Emergent Church Christians) are equally uncomfortable with me being almost an atheist. Most ECCs I run into value their relationship with God highly and can’t imagine how not actively engaging in a relationship with God can be better than doing so.
Whether ECCs engage me with the purpose of trying to help me regain my faith, varies – just as, whether people who feel uncomfortable about your posters engage you about them, varies. I’m sure there are people who don’t like the posters but feel it would be a waste of time engaging you about them because you are convinced making them is worthwhile. Maybe they are praying for you, hoping God will bring you to your senses. Other people engage you in the hope that something they say might change your mind.
By way of analogy, I’m in a similar situation: of those who are uncomfortable; some engage me and some don’t. That’s true of both VCCs and ECCs.
If I move from the conservative end of the EC spectrum towards the Spencer Burke end, it becomes increasingly likely that people will decide I am in a spiritual place they are comfortable with. This is because towards that end, their definition of spiritual, Jesus follower, Christian, becomes more and more general so I am more likely to still fall within its boundaries. If I go all the way to the Spencer Burke end of the EC spectrum, which very few ECCs seem to be at, then I don’t think those ECCs care what I believe. That end is probably way outside what you consider Christian (I expect you consider some people towards the other end, Christian but tragically misled).
At that end or towards that end, people still don’t put energy into making me feel comfortable where I’m at regarding faith in God/lack thereof. The only people I run into who high-five me for that or put energy into validating it are some atheists or agnostic-atheists.
Some Christians do validate other things about me “It’s good that you’re kind; you care about others” etc. It’s more common that ECCs do this than VCCs, although some of my friends who are VCCs have done it. I think VCCs are very reluctant to say anything validating to me in case I might misconstrue them as not being seriously concerned about my current lack of faith.
Off The Map does not have a theological agenda per se; its mission is to promote the spiritual practice of serving others [since Jesus came to serve, not to be served]. Off The Map invited me to their event last year to share my story because they see value in listening to atheists and near-atheists 1) in order to better understand them 2) because sometimes their outsider perspective helps them notice things it’s harder for Christians to notice, but which are helpful for Christians to know. I would say that intelligent evangelism should begin with 1): secular people recognize the value of market research and so should Christians, in my opinion. Also [the author of] James wrote: “be quick to listen and slow to speak”; I’m sure there was a reason for that.
As an almost-atheist I value serving others; in fact I like a lot of what Jesus said and did according to the gospels; I think a lot of it is worth emulating. From my point of view this aligns me with Off The Map’s mission enough that I’m happy to be an Off The Map volunteer (I manage their blogs). Evidently they feel the same way. My main role on their blogs is encouraging respectful atheist-Christian dialog. I also oversee all aspects of them. I’m respectful of their mission for each one, just as I am respectful of what you are trying to achieve with your blog. I was serious about inviting you to Off The Map Live. As far as I’m concerned I would happy to have you there; in fact I’d be quite interested to meet you in person as long as you did not tie me to a chair and try to make me say one of the historic creeds and mean it. I found out after last year’s event that at least one elder from Mark Driscoll’s church was there. Had I known that I would have been interested to meet him.
I’m wary of being with VCCs (or any Cs) who want to engage me and try to persuade me back to faith, because I’ve yet to encounter any who have something to say I didn’t come across in my 17 years as a Christian. I read apologetics then; I studied the defense of the faith. If those arguments were going to work they would have worked already – someone else telling me them is no more effective than me reading them myself. It’s tiresome to try to convince these people that, yes, I’ve been there, done that; yes, I really was a VCC; no, I’m not angry with God; no, I’m not angry with other Christians (although I have been, at times); yes, I know you think I am being foolishly arrogant – or whatever. Apart from that I like VCCs as much as I like anyone else. In many ways I find I am still a VCC at heart – sometimes I even have the same reactions as VCCs to ECCs. Many of my core values are based on Bible passages; I adopted them in the 17 years when I was a VCC and actively studying the Bible and I still want to live by them to this day (although you may feel I have distorted them beyond what God ever intended).
Comment by: Makeesha
1well, for the record, I’m unconvinced that trying to “convince” someone to faith or back to faith actually works so I have no interest in trying to do so with you. I value your participation in the conversation and the only thing I can “hope for” is that by actively participating in the story, your story is more enriched, your journey growing closer to Jesus – - but how that looks I cannot really control.
Comment by: Helen
2thanks Makeesha – you put that better than I could have.
Comment by: Steve S.
3FASCINATING!
As someone who embraces much of what the Emerging Church stands for (as I understand it) but refrains from calling myself a part of it because of some of the ways in which they live that out, I would be really interested in how you see the issues surrounding the dialogue between the Emerging Church and the “Very Conservative Church.”
Case in point:
My initital thoughts on reading this were, “Apologetics aren’t an appropriate way of ‘convincing’ someone to become a Christian.” In fact I would think that we should be inviting people rather than convincing them anyways…
I had a conversation with a German fellow who was visiting and a young man who has been attending our Church who has doubts about the truth of the Bible that revolve around his sexual identity, but have come to bring the importance of the whole story into doubt. In our conversation with this young man we did not try to ‘convince’ him that the Bible was true by using the arguments available about its historical reliability (although we did let him know that the information on that topic was out there and he could readd it if he chose).
Instead, we talked to him about the necessity of being open to God and what God has to say; a posture of trust and submission, confidence and humility, a willingness to learn from a source of goodness and beauty. We encouraged him that this trust (faith) is a prerequisite for believing the Bible is ‘God’s Word’ (someone could, in fact many in the academic world do, find the Bible to be an acurate historical record and yet do not find that in and of itself enough to compell them to believe in God or to believe that the Bible is accurate in its spiritual details). Even without this trust, one must approach the possibility of recieving it with openness.
It seems to me that apologetics usually confuses this ‘trust/faith,’ and almost always supercedes it with ‘belief.’ Whereas it seems faith transcends (but includes) belief.
Comment by: benjamin ady
4Helen,
I love your acronyms, and your spectrum for ECC’s, especially your “spencer Burke end of the spectrum”.
I admire your grace, and want to emulate, as another former VCC, now almst atheist. I find it more comfortable to hand out with ECC’s on the S.B. end of the ECC spectrum. I think we should have some fun and more clearly delineate the spectrum, with names of ECC leaders for various points along the spectrum. Just for fun. I guess one could rather get in trouble for that sort of thing if one wasn’t careful.
Comment by: Erin
5Amen what Mak said.
I love hearing your voice, Helen, and although my spiritual path does come out of my when I engage with people, I have no intention of trying to “win” anyone over. It doesn’t work. It’s not up to me to win souls – that’s the Holy Spirit’s job. It’s my responsibility to be Jesus to everyone equally (to the extent I am able in my humanity) and not to try to “convince” people.
Comment by: Helen
6Steve, the most recent example was when I found myself defending the Southern Baptist leaders’ rule against alcohol because I don’t see what’s wrong with saying “if you want this role, we ask this of you”. It’s a choice and I see spiritual value (can I say that? I might mean ‘character’ value) in voluntarily giving up something. Here’s my post on it: Using the Bible to excuse selfishness. Most emerging Christians didn’t seem to agree with my position; I think possibly they didn’t understand it. I was caught off guard to find myself on the VCC side of the fence on that one.
Thanks Benjamin. On the whole I find it easier to hang out with people towards the S.B. end.
I find Spencer particularly easy to be with – I’m not sure exactly how that relates to his belief; does his belief make him laid-back or does his laid-backness make him happy to be a ‘heretic’?
Which leads into a point I wanted to make: I want to be careful because where someone is along that line doesn’t totally define what makes a person fun to hang out with.
I’m fine with VCCs and ECCs at the other end who have figured out a way to be relaxed around me, even though they would very much like to see me go back to having the faith I used to have. Otherwise it tends to be awkward and uncomfortable and I feel bad that they are so concerned about me yet I feel fine about where I am. It’s a difficult mismatch to navigate.
Thanks Erin :)
Comment by: April Terry
7Helen,
I think that was a very thorough response given, although I am always impressed with your ability to clearly present your thoughts.
His question is interesting to me because it seems to illustrate that many Christians have misconceptions about the emerging church as a whole. Part of the reasons behind that misconception is the emerging church’s reticence to be “labeled” any one thing or the other.
I recently read the outline to Dr. James Dobson’s new study called “The Truth Project” and it had a glossary of terms that listed the term “postmodernism” as a “cluster of philosophies with the underlying assumption that no one worldview or belief system can claim to be the truth, which often results in relativistic thinking and the use of language as a power play.” That type of definition really packs a powerful punch, and manages to divide rather than unite churches in so many ways.
What it boils down to me is that I don’t want to be a Christian who uses faith as a weapon against people. I want to use it as a uniting and peaceful faith. That means that I am not going to spend most of my time arguing our differences, but rather, I will be spending my energy reminding one another what we have in common.
If that’s heresy, then I am a heretic.
Comment by: Makeesha
8april – that is a HUGE misunderstanding of postmodernity that includes a false dichotomy of “liberal” vs. “conservative” or “truth” vs. “relativism”.
Those definitions are often presented by people who are not familiar with the philosophy behind postmodernity…
but you’re right, fundamentalists hold that definition to be fact and they judge everything against their idea of “truth”. Which means that whoever does not agree with that dichotomy or fit into their black vs. white world is on the out and either a heretic or apostate.
which, for the record, they have every right to believe and within that construct, they have a moral obligation to judge us – - not that it makes them right and not that I agree but I understand their “world”.
the question phil asked, whilst honest I’m sure, is fully loaded and makes me chuckle because it’s the same stuff we heard from the church that kicked us out for being too “liberal” – - the belief is that you have a responsibility to present the Gospel
(and by this they mean “God is here, you are here, sin is in the middle, Jesus died and is now the bridge, believe this and go to heaven, don’t and go to hell”)
and “simply loving” someone is not “enough” and if you present the Gospel then your hands are clean – - so even if you’re a complete ass, that person has to choose to believe or not, and if they choose not to believe, they’re damned to hell and your hands are clean and you can stand right before God.
Comment by: Rachel
9Helen, Phil’s question bothers me because I don’t accept that these are the only two options, that those of us who are Christians are either actively trying to bring you back to the faith OR encouraging you in your doubts. Phil says “try to help you regain your faith.” But you have communicated that you do not appreciate it when people do that and that it would not be considered “help” because it is not wanted. And we respect your wishes. That doesn’t mean that we don’t want to see you find faith again. It just means that we respect your right to choose.
I think that a few of my non-theist friends on the blogs would like to see me become non-theist as well. They have at times gently hinted that they feel I would be more free of guilt if I were liberated from my religion. But they respect that I want to remain a follower of Christ so they don’t pressure me. And it doesn’t bother me that they feel as they do. Of course people want to see others adopt their beliefs or their world view. But that doesn’t mean you try to push people. It IS possible to have strong beliefs AND to respect the beliefs of others.
Comment by: Rachel
10That pretty much describes what I was taught, Makeesha. Except you forgot this part: “and after you are done being a complete ass and no one you have witnessed to can stand you anymore, go and complain to all your Christians friends about how you are being ‘persecuted’ for the faith so they can pat you on the back and tell you what a martyr you are.”
Comment by: Makeesha
11exactly Rachel, all part of that false dichotomy.
one thing that I loved about Tony Jones’ description of Emergent/emerging is that we strive to live well in the paradox. I talk about how being emerging-missional is about living and loving well, in my space on purpose. To me, that usually involves tension, wrestling, acknowedging that our relationships are not as black and white as who’s going to hell and who’s going to heaven…or even who’s “Christian” or who’s a “non believer”.
and your little add on was right on the money. Don’t you feel so liberated to be freed from the responsibility to be the Holy Spirit to people?
Comment by: Helen
12Rachel wrote:
Thanks Rachel – I really appreciate that you and others here respect my wishes that way.
I realize it doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t care whether I find faith again. I agree that there are more options than Phil presented.
Comment by: Helen
13I like Tony Jones – I met him in July at the Midwest Emergent Gathering.
Comment by: Rachel
14Amen, Makeesha! And the interesting thing is that I get into a lot more faith conversations with people now than I ever did when I was trying to be a “Jerk for Jesus.”
Comment by: Makeesha
15me too Rachel
Helen – I haven’t met Tony personally but I like a lot of what he has to say.
I’ll be at the Emergent Gathering in Oct so maybe I’ll get the chance.
Comment by: Erin
16Just have to say I really liked this conversation and am always glad to know I’m not the only one…liberated from the responsibility to be the Holy Spirit to people.
Comment by: Helen
17Hi Erin, I’m glad it’s been helpful!
I think that’s one of the goals of Doable Evangelism and OAs.
Also, helping Christians not to be ‘jerks for Jesus’ :)
Comment by: Karen
18Whoa … I just got a Four Spiritual Laws tract flashback going there. Don’t do that!!
;-)
Comment by: Makeesha
19ROFLOL…I know huh? I tell ya, I can certainly play in that world successfully…27 years really drives it home
Comment by: Karen
20Ha – 30 years for me. I’m sure the mindset probably never completely goes away … those neural pathways are worn down to the nubs by now! :-)
Comment by: benjamin ady
21there is a certain elegant simplicity in the godishereyouareheresinisinthemiddlejesusisthebridgebelieveorgotohell model, isn’t there?
what I realized at some point is that (there I go using that clumsy passive voice construction again. ah well…)future heaven is so vastly unsatisfactory, and future hell is so vastly unterrifying and unreal, in light of all the really shockingly horrifying here and now stuff. and if so for me, then doubtless so for other people, so the whole model just fell down.
Comment by: benjamin ady
22>
Comment by: Helen
23Benjamin, has someone a little younger than you been using your computer? :)
Comment by: Makeesha
24benjamin – LOL…that’s so true. I have often talked about that with my husband. I wouldn’t have dared say such things to anyone else in the circles I ran in at the time though – - they’d have run me out of town way sooner than they did ;)
I would tell David – you know, heaven really doesn’t sound all that great and motivating to me, not to mention that “eternity” is something I cannot fathom and I’m a Christian. I don’t really “live as a Christian” for the primary reason of eternity myself – So why in God’s name would I expect anyone to say “yes, heaven, I believe” on the heaven/hell explanation when *I* can’t even get excited about heaven or really all that worried about hell. I don’t even know what I believe about hell for pete’s sake.
so anyway, yes, you’re absolutely right, we need to be communicating a more complete view of the atonement than just “heaven or hell – choose”
Comment by: Nathanael
25Wise answer, Helen. You are a gifted communicator.
Steve S. (comment #3) Inviting vs. Convincing! Love it! Well said!
Great converstation here.
Shalom
Comment by: Rachel
26I feel the same way, Makeesha. And I always have – I just didn’t dare say so.
I remember years ago my fundamentalist sister-in-law saying that she didn’t think anyone would choose to “accept Jesus” if it weren’t for the threat of hell. I totally disagreed but I didn’t say anything – she wasn’t the kind of person you wanted to contradict!
Comment by: Helen
27Thanks Nathanael.
Rachel, wow, what a message: “Jesus sucks; but if the other choice is hell I suppose he’s better than that…”
Comment by: Steve S
28You have this man who starts a peaceful revolution that overtakes the entire known world without the use of violence (and in the face of much of it!). He even faces the most cruel torture of the day with forgiveness on his tongue, he heals the sick, provides hope for the rejected, loves those on the fringes, and gives freely of himself to any who ask. And one of His followers portrays Him like this:
How depressing is that…
I guess I was fortunate to have my spiritual upbringing in a very different environment. The focus was much more on the Jesus presented in the Gospels, than on the Jesus presented by late-1900′s Americana. Heaven really isn’t much of an emphasis in the NT, more of an afterthought, kind of like letting someone keep the $2 in change after you bought $198 dollars in merchandise at their store. (I don’t like commercial metaphors generally, but I didn’t feel like thinking that hard…)
…and hell isn’t really used to scare people into ‘accepting Jesus’ so much as it is used to challenge the status-quo of the religious elite.
Comment by: Gary Means
29Helen, I appreciate the articulate, graceful response to Mr. Johnson. It is so refreshing to read your post and the following comments. It greatly encourages me to hear intelligent, respectful voices of people who value their faith journey, wherever they are on it, but do not seek to impose their perspective upon others. My faith is in a state of reevaluation. Sometimes it’s easy to begin to feel that perhaps I have NO faith, or that the little faith that I do have is meaningless, especially when I look at the “strong” faith of the vast majority of the Church. But I can’t play that game any longer.
It’s been far too long since I visited here. I see a lot that I want to read. It’s good to “hear” voices that became familiar last winter during the controversy over the pastor in Seattle who shall not be named.
Comment by: Rachel
30Steve, have you read McLaren’s book “The Secret Message of Jesus”? He talks a lot about that very concept.
Gary, I really relate to that. Will you able to attend OTM Live this year?
Comment by: Gary Means
31Rachel,
Yes, I’m planning on it. I just sent an email to a friend to invite him to go with me.
Comment by: Helen
32Gary thanks for your comment. I’m glad you’ll be at OTM Live – I’ll get to meet you in person!
Comment by: Rachel
33That’s great, Gary! I’ll look forward to meeting you there. We will probably have a social gathering for OTM bloggers. Stay tuned for more info…
Comment by: Helen
34See my blog entry today for some of the info Rachel mentioned
Off The Map Live updates
By the way, I posted a number of comments on another entry on Phil’s blog. A number of people posted comments in response to my comments, which on the whole expressed concern, disapproval or both of those.