Helen -
I was at the CCDA conference this weekend, and a speaker (Wayne Gordon) read an excerpt from Jim and Casper Go To Church. I was sitting there thinking, “Where have I seen that book before? Oh yeah! Conversation at the Edge!”
Now I’m going to have to pick it up. Looking at the table of contents, it sort-of reminds me of Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory (Randall Balmer), which I read in college - just from an even broader perspective.
Hey Jim, my friends Karlene & Josh Clark were at the CCDA conference too, in fact they were hanging out with Nancy at one point! And when they got back they told me about the Jim & Casper book reference. I said, “I’d better email Jim and tell him” and they said “Oh, Nancy already texted him right then.” Small world, huh? :-)
BTW, Karlene & Josh are the couple I told you about who fell in love at OTML 2005 and now they are married and getting ready to plant a church.
Benjamin when I posted this I hesitated about whether to tag this ‘humor’ and decided not to because I wasn’t sure whether it was funny or painful.
It’s a parody of religious systems (some, like this one, self-identify as ‘Christian’) which exercise control over people by emotionally manipulating them through fear and guilt.
I can well imagine that people who have experienced this would find it more painful than funny watching a parody of it.
People who haven’t probably think it’s such a ridiculous system that it’s funny.
Or maybe some of the laughter is that uncomfortable laughter that comes from the realization “yeah, it IS ridiculous…but it’s TRUE…people really do this - or at least a slightly less exaggerated version of this”
I guess this brings something to mind: I hate when people make fun of other people who can’t help the situations they are in i.e. humor against the ‘oppressed’ as it were. I never would have posted it if I felt it was making fun of people who suffer under emotionally manipulative, controlling religious systems, rather than making fun of the system itself and the people who perpetuate it (the ‘oppressors’).
I guess I always assume these kinds of critiques aren’t really intended as parody or critique, but as intentionally offensive…
Of course I am not RC (although I did belong to one throughout High School, actually it is the longest my family ever went to the same church, almost 3 years)
I don’t know if I am one of the fortunate few, or if the ‘opressed’ are simply a loud minority, but I have never seen anything remotely like what this video portrays…
Maybe I was sheltered from religious freaks by my parents?
I don’t entirely understand what you mean - first of all, in my experience, parody/critique and giving offense aren’t mutually exclusive.
Secondly and maybe more importantly, this is a skit - and the audience is laughing. They don’t seem offended and I don’t think the intent is to offend them. Do you think otherwise?
My sense is that there are lots of people who as children were emotionally manipulated by religious systems using fear and guilt.
This skit is deliberately extreme and exaggerated (as best I know), but I recognize some of the underlying thinking even from my experiences in non-RC Christian circles.
It sounds to me like you are indeed fortunate if you have been in church all your life and never experienced manipulation through fear and guilt. Perhaps as you say your parents were careful to avoid churches where that would have happened.
As a Catholic, I wasn’t sure exactly how to interpret this. It didn’t strike me as offensive, really, but it also didn’t strike me as particularly funny. I wasn’t really sure what the skit was getting at. It would have been funnier if it were parodying anything I’d ever experienced, or been taught was true (Dogma, for example, is one really funny movie), but the views of the priest don’t even remotely resemble Catholic theology as I know it. Anyway, because I didn’t understand what they were getting at, I found the website of the guy who made it, and he has this section, Theatre and Theology.
He reveals that he was raised Catholic, has mostly drifted away from the Church,
But I do drift back, occasionally — every couple of months I find myself in the back row of a church or a synagogue or something, looking for something I can’t really identify.
He even says that when attending non-Catholic services,
I found myself missing the Catholic services from my youth, for some of the very reasons that I’d initially criticized them for. Mainly, I missed the ritual — kneel here, stand here, genuflect, sing, recite response, recite latin, perform these gestures ad nauseam.
That’s part one. A few “parts” later, he goes on to say
If it’s not obvious, I have little love for [the Catholic Church] — after all, there’s a reason Dante put most of the popes in Hell.
It seems to me that, though he has “little love” for the Church, he may have a certain fondness for the religion he was raised with, which may be why it’s difficult to pinpoint exactly what his goal is in this performance.
Personally I did not find this skit to be either funny or sad, just ridiculous. I thought it was so exaggerated that it completely missed the mark of intelligent satire and was simply absurd. Benjamin, the reason that the audience was laughing was because they had already decided that anything associated with religious faith is deserving of derision and disgust.
I’m surprised to learn that the skit’s author was Catholic because I thought the skit showed little understanding of Catholic theology. For example, the title of the skit - “Immaculate Misconceptions” - makes no sense in the context. The Immaculate Conception is a Catholic dogma that states that Mary the mother of Jesus was conceived without the stain of original sin. What does that have to do with the skit? Apparently the author just thought it sounded clever.
BTW Helen, I’m not in any way offended that you posted this skit. I really enjoy the lively dialogue we have on this blog. I’m just trying to state an opinion with conviction. And my opinion is that skit was stupid and rude.
For example, the title of the skit - “Immaculate Misconceptions” - makes no sense in the context. The Immaculate Conception is a Catholic dogma that states that Mary the mother of Jesus was conceived without the stain of original sin. What does that have to do with the skit? Apparently the author just thought it sounded clever.
That confused me, too. When I first saw it posted, I assumed it was going to be in reference to the popular misconception that the Immaculate Conception refers to the virginal conception of Jesus.
I didn’t understand the laughter because what the priest was saying was just so … unkind–cruel really. It makes sense to me that they are mocking a certain understanding of life, the universe, and everything where “we are all worms–jesus died for us to save us from a well deserved eternity of horrifying torture, and it’s our bad or wrong *beliefs* that qualify us for that eternity, and thus that made jesus have to die for us, blah blah blah etc.” I didn’t understand the laughter because that belief structure is both so profoundly unconnected to people’s actual reality, on the one hand, and (when it *is* connected to their actual reality) so really shocking horrific, cruel, unkind, inhumane–nasty on the other hand.
Perhaps they were laughing because they recognize that they themselves have sat by and either … been the victims of, or watching people being victimized by, this way of thinking? and thus they laugh in order to … be able to continue to hold themselves separate from the reality of that?
I had a really interesting conversation the other day here on campus with a guy from eritrea whose name I can’t remember (partially because it was a foreign name). He was a really nice guy. We ended up walking along the same direction, and I said,
“Good afternoon”. And he said
“Good afternoon, how are you?”
Benjamin: I’m okay. The gray, heavy weather gets me down a little”
Eritrean guy: Oh really? I feel happy in spite of the weather. Jesus is my lord and saviour–so I feel happy all the time.
B: (somewhat bemused, and somewhat triggered, and therefore kind of gearing up for a potentially fascinating conversation) really? what do you mean when you say Jesus is your lord and savior? How does that make you happy?
E: Well, he died for my sins, so I can go to heaven when I die. Everybody needs Jesus as their savior so they can go to heaven.
B: okay–that sounds kewl. But what has Jesus done for you here?
E: well–he died for my sins.
B: yeah–but what has he done for you here? Has he helped you in any particular way? like for instance, I get in arguments with my wife sometimes. Has jesus helped in relationships with your spouse, your friends?
E: well–yes of course we are humans, which means that we get into fights and arguments. that’s okay–it’s part of life. We work through that stuff. But Jesus (as before)
B: (bull dog now with bone in mouth–won’t be put off =) Yes–great. But has your life changed since you met Jesus? Are you any different now from how were you before (thinking to self: come on, come on–tell me a goddamned story already–I’m setting it up for you here!!!!)
E: oh yes!!! I used to be a drunkard, and a (goes on to describe person who is a general loser). Yes Jesus changed me a lot. Don’t you want to be a christian too?
B: well it’s really interesting and great that you had that experience. I’ve had almost the opposite experience. Back when I was a Christian and knew Jesus, I was a pretty horrible person. Now that I’m not a christian anymore, I’m a much nicer person–I treat other people and myself better. Isn’t it intriguing that we have had such opposite experiences?
E: Well, I’m very happy to be here in a christian nation, and be able to love Jesus and that he has forgiven my sins
B: (alas, a new trigger) Why do you call this a christian nation? what do you mean when you say christian? didn’t Jesus say to love your enemies? But we kill our enemies.
E: Yes–but you must of course defend yourself!
B: well–at one level I agree with you. but then I’m not a christian. you call yourself a christian, and yet you condone killing your enemies? How’s that?
(this next bit is mega fascinating to me)
E: well–I don’t really like to talk about politics. But you know, back home in eritrea–this is how Christians believe–that we must not kill our enemies. The fighting has been going on a long time with ethiopia, and the government requires everyone to serve in the army, but the christians refuse. and many of them are imprisoned or killed because of this. So when I came to this country, I joined a little Eritrean church (points in general direction of churhc building). and about 80% of the people in this church have this different view now that since america is a christian nation, that it is okay for them to condone killing enemies in defense of america. So I have been swayed by this 80%, and my thinking has changed. But perhaps you are right.
B: (thinking to self: wow!! I’m stoked I got in this conversation. How fascinating is that???) So what do you mean when you say Jesus died for you?
E: well, you see, he was killed on a cross for your sins and my sins, so we could go to heaven. He did not sin–but you, and me, and all of us–we sinned–we deserved to be on that cross–and he took our place.
B: yes, yes. But what is this “Sin”? I mean you know what a cross is, right? It’s a roman execution by torture device. Our closest equivalent might be an electric chair combined with a cia black site. So you are saying that you deserve to be tortured to death? what for? what have you done that’s so awful that you should be tortured to death? What is this “sin” you are talking about?
E: well, it doesn’t have to be about what I personally did. It’s in our blood. Adam sinned, and that sin came down to me in my blood.
B: So you are saying you are convinced that you and me and everybody ought to be tortured to death because some guy thousands of years ago didn’t exactly follow what god said?
E: yes–we deserve to die for our sins, but Jesus came to save us.
B: okay–I don’t get that. I can’t really believe that you believe that. I gotta get to class. Great talking to ya. Later!
All of which to say, among other things, that people get taught and buy into what seems to me to be a really shockingly cruel, horrible theology–but there seems to be a huge disconnect somewhere between their theology and their actual real world experience as a human being. as with people laughing at the skit.
Benjamin thanks for sharing that conversation - I really enjoyed reading it.
All of which to say, among other things, that people get taught and buy into what seems to me to be a really shockingly cruel, horrible theology
I think maybe this is why I liked the skit: because I felt that someone else was agreeing with me that some religious systems are cruel and shocking and horrible instead of telling me how wonderful they are and not understanding why I don’t think so.
Regarding the disconnect: it seems like one to me too.
Well, I’m very happy to be here in a christian nation, and be able to love Jesus and that he has forgiven my sins
Benjamin, it doesn’t surprise me that this gentleman would say that. Christians in Eritrea suffer horrific persecution. The United States is a paradise by comparison. Any nation that grants religious freedom must seem wonderful to him.
thankyou. I’m so glad you are in my life–to point out this sort of thing to me. You rock. I feel like I acted a bit of the ugly arrogant american with this fellow now, having read the amnesty report. But I’m glad to feel this way–I need to be pulled up short as often as necessary.
Your point is well taken and I do agree with it especially having traveled some- however
he demonstrates that the west has successfully exported a largely self serving form of Christianity and that is what we protetc his right to practice- so I have to also agree with Benjamins feelings about the weirdness of it all.
Barbara Tuchman my favorite historian says ” in history contradictions are always ocurring” thus it behooves us (as Benjamin did) to spend more time asking and less time talking- that way we can discover how the contradictions are ocurring and mabe learn something from the encounter
I feel like I acted a bit of the ugly arrogant american with this fellow now, having read the amnesty report.
Benjamin, I think it was a good conversation to have. You asked him questions and showed interest in his beliefs and you shared your viewpoint. And I think it was good that you got him to think about his theology. He sounds open to hearing different perspectives.
I can understand that going to heaven when you die seems a lot more important to people who live in a country where they are powerless and could be killed for their faith. But I think that the message of peace and liberation and reconciliation in this life would also resonate strongly among Eritreans. Jesus’ message that there IS a power greater than the Empire would mean so much in their context!
Like Jim said, we Westerners have exported a self-serving form of Christianity and that makes me very sad. And yet there are Christians in Eritrea who have been tortured to death rather than recant their faith so they obviously have something real and powerful…
Benjamin, will you see this guy again or was it just a chance meeting? I think it would be SO awesome if he could come to Off The Map with us! I think that he would really love Brian McLaren’s teaching. And I would love the chance to talk to this guy. We could all pitch in for his ticket. Do you think you could find him again??
The more I think about this thing with the Eritrean guy, the more upset I get. This guy said that in Eritrea the Christians believed that they should not kill their enemies and were willing to face death or imprisonment rather than join the army. I’ve read about Eritrean believers being locked in metal cargo tanks in 100 plus degree heat or being tied naked to poles and covered in red ants! Wow. I’m not worthy to kiss the feet of people who have that kind of courage.
And then the Eritreans escape their country and are able to come to America, the land of freedom. And then when they get here, spoiled and comfortable US Christians convince them that they were wrong, that it IS acceptable to kill their enemies and the Eritreans change their minds!! Why the hell would they listen to US, pampered American Christians who have NEVER suffered for our beliefs? What is wrong here??
great idea! I’ll have to poke around over where I met him at the same timish and see if I run into him again. I bet if he agreed to come, we could convince Jim to give him a free ticket, in the interest of making the conference more interesting, or something like that. =)
Comment by: Kimberly
1Helen -
I was at the CCDA conference this weekend, and a speaker (Wayne Gordon) read an excerpt from Jim and Casper Go To Church. I was sitting there thinking, “Where have I seen that book before? Oh yeah! Conversation at the Edge!”
Now I’m going to have to pick it up. Looking at the table of contents, it sort-of reminds me of Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory (Randall Balmer), which I read in college - just from an even broader perspective.
Comment by: Blake
2Helen:
Thanks for the corrective information. Great review of the book by the way. I haven’t finished it yet, but I’m really enjoying it so far.
Love your blog, keep it coming…
Comment by: Jim Henderson
3Kimberly
My friend Nancy Murphy was at the CCDA event as well and texted me about Waynes comments - very fun
What is your involvement with CCDA?
Comment by: Helen
4Thanks for your comments, Kimberly and Blake!
Comment by: Rachel
5Hey Jim, my friends Karlene & Josh Clark were at the CCDA conference too, in fact they were hanging out with Nancy at one point! And when they got back they told me about the Jim & Casper book reference. I said, “I’d better email Jim and tell him” and they said “Oh, Nancy already texted him right then.” Small world, huh? :-)
BTW, Karlene & Josh are the couple I told you about who fell in love at OTML 2005 and now they are married and getting ready to plant a church.
Comment by: benjamin ady
6I don’t understand why they are laughing.
Comment by: Helen
7Benjamin when I posted this I hesitated about whether to tag this ‘humor’ and decided not to because I wasn’t sure whether it was funny or painful.
It’s a parody of religious systems (some, like this one, self-identify as ‘Christian’) which exercise control over people by emotionally manipulating them through fear and guilt.
I can well imagine that people who have experienced this would find it more painful than funny watching a parody of it.
People who haven’t probably think it’s such a ridiculous system that it’s funny.
Or maybe some of the laughter is that uncomfortable laughter that comes from the realization “yeah, it IS ridiculous…but it’s TRUE…people really do this - or at least a slightly less exaggerated version of this”
I guess this brings something to mind: I hate when people make fun of other people who can’t help the situations they are in i.e. humor against the ‘oppressed’ as it were. I never would have posted it if I felt it was making fun of people who suffer under emotionally manipulative, controlling religious systems, rather than making fun of the system itself and the people who perpetuate it (the ‘oppressors’).
I don’t know if that helps…
Comment by: Steve S.
8I guess I always assume these kinds of critiques aren’t really intended as parody or critique, but as intentionally offensive…
Of course I am not RC (although I did belong to one throughout High School, actually it is the longest my family ever went to the same church, almost 3 years)
I don’t know if I am one of the fortunate few, or if the ‘opressed’ are simply a loud minority, but I have never seen anything remotely like what this video portrays…
Maybe I was sheltered from religious freaks by my parents?
Comment by: Helen
9Thanks for your comment, Steve.
I don’t entirely understand what you mean - first of all, in my experience, parody/critique and giving offense aren’t mutually exclusive.
Secondly and maybe more importantly, this is a skit - and the audience is laughing. They don’t seem offended and I don’t think the intent is to offend them. Do you think otherwise?
My sense is that there are lots of people who as children were emotionally manipulated by religious systems using fear and guilt.
This skit is deliberately extreme and exaggerated (as best I know), but I recognize some of the underlying thinking even from my experiences in non-RC Christian circles.
It sounds to me like you are indeed fortunate if you have been in church all your life and never experienced manipulation through fear and guilt. Perhaps as you say your parents were careful to avoid churches where that would have happened.
Comment by: Kathleen
10As a Catholic, I wasn’t sure exactly how to interpret this. It didn’t strike me as offensive, really, but it also didn’t strike me as particularly funny. I wasn’t really sure what the skit was getting at. It would have been funnier if it were parodying anything I’d ever experienced, or been taught was true (Dogma, for example, is one really funny movie), but the views of the priest don’t even remotely resemble Catholic theology as I know it. Anyway, because I didn’t understand what they were getting at, I found the website of the guy who made it, and he has this section, Theatre and Theology.
He reveals that he was raised Catholic, has mostly drifted away from the Church,
He even says that when attending non-Catholic services,
That’s part one. A few “parts” later, he goes on to say
It seems to me that, though he has “little love” for the Church, he may have a certain fondness for the religion he was raised with, which may be why it’s difficult to pinpoint exactly what his goal is in this performance.
Comment by: Rachel
11Personally I did not find this skit to be either funny or sad, just ridiculous. I thought it was so exaggerated that it completely missed the mark of intelligent satire and was simply absurd. Benjamin, the reason that the audience was laughing was because they had already decided that anything associated with religious faith is deserving of derision and disgust.
I’m surprised to learn that the skit’s author was Catholic because I thought the skit showed little understanding of Catholic theology. For example, the title of the skit - “Immaculate Misconceptions” - makes no sense in the context. The Immaculate Conception is a Catholic dogma that states that Mary the mother of Jesus was conceived without the stain of original sin. What does that have to do with the skit? Apparently the author just thought it sounded clever.
BTW Helen, I’m not in any way offended that you posted this skit. I really enjoy the lively dialogue we have on this blog. I’m just trying to state an opinion with conviction. And my opinion is that skit was stupid and rude.
Comment by: Helen
12Rachel I appreciate your honest feedback! Way to go expressing your opinion. :-)
Yes, maybe it is ridiculous.
Comment by: Kathleen
13That confused me, too. When I first saw it posted, I assumed it was going to be in reference to the popular misconception that the Immaculate Conception refers to the virginal conception of Jesus.
Comment by: benjamin ady
14I didn’t understand the laughter because what the priest was saying was just so … unkind–cruel really. It makes sense to me that they are mocking a certain understanding of life, the universe, and everything where “we are all worms–jesus died for us to save us from a well deserved eternity of horrifying torture, and it’s our bad or wrong *beliefs* that qualify us for that eternity, and thus that made jesus have to die for us, blah blah blah etc.” I didn’t understand the laughter because that belief structure is both so profoundly unconnected to people’s actual reality, on the one hand, and (when it *is* connected to their actual reality) so really shocking horrific, cruel, unkind, inhumane–nasty on the other hand.
Perhaps they were laughing because they recognize that they themselves have sat by and either … been the victims of, or watching people being victimized by, this way of thinking? and thus they laugh in order to … be able to continue to hold themselves separate from the reality of that?
I had a really interesting conversation the other day here on campus with a guy from eritrea whose name I can’t remember (partially because it was a foreign name). He was a really nice guy. We ended up walking along the same direction, and I said,
“Good afternoon”. And he said
“Good afternoon, how are you?”
Benjamin: I’m okay. The gray, heavy weather gets me down a little”
Eritrean guy: Oh really? I feel happy in spite of the weather. Jesus is my lord and saviour–so I feel happy all the time.
B: (somewhat bemused, and somewhat triggered, and therefore kind of gearing up for a potentially fascinating conversation) really? what do you mean when you say Jesus is your lord and savior? How does that make you happy?
E: Well, he died for my sins, so I can go to heaven when I die. Everybody needs Jesus as their savior so they can go to heaven.
B: okay–that sounds kewl. But what has Jesus done for you here?
E: well–he died for my sins.
B: yeah–but what has he done for you here? Has he helped you in any particular way? like for instance, I get in arguments with my wife sometimes. Has jesus helped in relationships with your spouse, your friends?
E: well–yes of course we are humans, which means that we get into fights and arguments. that’s okay–it’s part of life. We work through that stuff. But Jesus (as before)
B: (bull dog now with bone in mouth–won’t be put off =) Yes–great. But has your life changed since you met Jesus? Are you any different now from how were you before (thinking to self: come on, come on–tell me a goddamned story already–I’m setting it up for you here!!!!)
E: oh yes!!! I used to be a drunkard, and a (goes on to describe person who is a general loser). Yes Jesus changed me a lot. Don’t you want to be a christian too?
B: well it’s really interesting and great that you had that experience. I’ve had almost the opposite experience. Back when I was a Christian and knew Jesus, I was a pretty horrible person. Now that I’m not a christian anymore, I’m a much nicer person–I treat other people and myself better. Isn’t it intriguing that we have had such opposite experiences?
E: Well, I’m very happy to be here in a christian nation, and be able to love Jesus and that he has forgiven my sins
B: (alas, a new trigger) Why do you call this a christian nation? what do you mean when you say christian? didn’t Jesus say to love your enemies? But we kill our enemies.
E: Yes–but you must of course defend yourself!
B: well–at one level I agree with you. but then I’m not a christian. you call yourself a christian, and yet you condone killing your enemies? How’s that?
(this next bit is mega fascinating to me)
E: well–I don’t really like to talk about politics. But you know, back home in eritrea–this is how Christians believe–that we must not kill our enemies. The fighting has been going on a long time with ethiopia, and the government requires everyone to serve in the army, but the christians refuse. and many of them are imprisoned or killed because of this. So when I came to this country, I joined a little Eritrean church (points in general direction of churhc building). and about 80% of the people in this church have this different view now that since america is a christian nation, that it is okay for them to condone killing enemies in defense of america. So I have been swayed by this 80%, and my thinking has changed. But perhaps you are right.
B: (thinking to self: wow!! I’m stoked I got in this conversation. How fascinating is that???) So what do you mean when you say Jesus died for you?
E: well, you see, he was killed on a cross for your sins and my sins, so we could go to heaven. He did not sin–but you, and me, and all of us–we sinned–we deserved to be on that cross–and he took our place.
B: yes, yes. But what is this “Sin”? I mean you know what a cross is, right? It’s a roman execution by torture device. Our closest equivalent might be an electric chair combined with a cia black site. So you are saying that you deserve to be tortured to death? what for? what have you done that’s so awful that you should be tortured to death? What is this “sin” you are talking about?
E: well, it doesn’t have to be about what I personally did. It’s in our blood. Adam sinned, and that sin came down to me in my blood.
B: So you are saying you are convinced that you and me and everybody ought to be tortured to death because some guy thousands of years ago didn’t exactly follow what god said?
E: yes–we deserve to die for our sins, but Jesus came to save us.
B: okay–I don’t get that. I can’t really believe that you believe that. I gotta get to class. Great talking to ya. Later!
All of which to say, among other things, that people get taught and buy into what seems to me to be a really shockingly cruel, horrible theology–but there seems to be a huge disconnect somewhere between their theology and their actual real world experience as a human being. as with people laughing at the skit.
BICBW
Sorry to carry on at so much length.
Comment by: Helen
15Benjamin thanks for sharing that conversation - I really enjoyed reading it.
I think maybe this is why I liked the skit: because I felt that someone else was agreeing with me that some religious systems are cruel and shocking and horrible instead of telling me how wonderful they are and not understanding why I don’t think so.
Regarding the disconnect: it seems like one to me too.
Comment by: Rachel
16Benjamin, it doesn’t surprise me that this gentleman would say that. Christians in Eritrea suffer horrific persecution. The United States is a paradise by comparison. Any nation that grants religious freedom must seem wonderful to him.
Report on Eritrea from Amnesty International
Comment by: benjamin ady
17Rachel
thankyou. I’m so glad you are in my life–to point out this sort of thing to me. You rock. I feel like I acted a bit of the ugly arrogant american with this fellow now, having read the amnesty report. But I’m glad to feel this way–I need to be pulled up short as often as necessary.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
18Rachel
Your point is well taken and I do agree with it especially having traveled some- however
he demonstrates that the west has successfully exported a largely self serving form of Christianity and that is what we protetc his right to practice- so I have to also agree with Benjamins feelings about the weirdness of it all.
Barbara Tuchman my favorite historian says ” in history contradictions are always ocurring” thus it behooves us (as Benjamin did) to spend more time asking and less time talking- that way we can discover how the contradictions are ocurring and mabe learn something from the encounter
Comment by: Helen
19Yes, I love how Benjamin asked lots of questions and let the other person share.
Comment by: Rachel
20Benjamin, I think it was a good conversation to have. You asked him questions and showed interest in his beliefs and you shared your viewpoint. And I think it was good that you got him to think about his theology. He sounds open to hearing different perspectives.
I can understand that going to heaven when you die seems a lot more important to people who live in a country where they are powerless and could be killed for their faith. But I think that the message of peace and liberation and reconciliation in this life would also resonate strongly among Eritreans. Jesus’ message that there IS a power greater than the Empire would mean so much in their context!
Like Jim said, we Westerners have exported a self-serving form of Christianity and that makes me very sad. And yet there are Christians in Eritrea who have been tortured to death rather than recant their faith so they obviously have something real and powerful…
Benjamin, will you see this guy again or was it just a chance meeting? I think it would be SO awesome if he could come to Off The Map with us! I think that he would really love Brian McLaren’s teaching. And I would love the chance to talk to this guy. We could all pitch in for his ticket. Do you think you could find him again??
Comment by: Rachel
21The more I think about this thing with the Eritrean guy, the more upset I get. This guy said that in Eritrea the Christians believed that they should not kill their enemies and were willing to face death or imprisonment rather than join the army. I’ve read about Eritrean believers being locked in metal cargo tanks in 100 plus degree heat or being tied naked to poles and covered in red ants! Wow. I’m not worthy to kiss the feet of people who have that kind of courage.
And then the Eritreans escape their country and are able to come to America, the land of freedom. And then when they get here, spoiled and comfortable US Christians convince them that they were wrong, that it IS acceptable to kill their enemies and the Eritreans change their minds!! Why the hell would they listen to US, pampered American Christians who have NEVER suffered for our beliefs? What is wrong here??
Comment by: benjamin ady
22rachel
great idea! I’ll have to poke around over where I met him at the same timish and see if I run into him again. I bet if he agreed to come, we could convince Jim to give him a free ticket, in the interest of making the conference more interesting, or something like that. =)