Posted by Helen on: 11.06.2007 /
About a week ago I wrote to Rabbi David Rosen with questions about his dialog with RT Kendall. Rabbi Rosen is the Chairman of IJCIC, the International Jewish Committee that represents World Jewry in its relations with other world Religions. His answers are in bold.
Rabbi Rosen,
On my blog we recently discussed Christianity Today’s interview with you and RT Kendall. The interview was about the book you wrote together, The Christian and the Pharisee.
We didn’t agree with Christianity Today that the two of you “model a warm friendship”. In our opinion RT Kendall failed to show you the curiosity and respect we expect to see in a friendship or friendly dialog.
Were you surprised at how your exchange with RT Kendall went?
Not at all. I know where he is coming from and what to expect.
Did you expect him to show more interest in your views and spend less time trying to convert you?
Regrettably no. As much as I have a genuine affection for RT Kendall, a fundamentalist mind-set by definition doesn’t really want to discover the spiritual world of another for its own sake, but is only interested in what is perceived as relevant to the fundamentalist’s own world and goals.
Were you satisfied with the outcome of the exchange? Did you achieve what you were hoping to achieve through it?
At the beginning my only goal - as indicated in the exchange - was simply to set the record straight as far as I was concerned - specifically in relation to who were (are ?) the Pharisees. However I realized as this was progressing, that it could be a helpful exercise in explaining to Christians from a wide spectrum, who the Jews are; why they believe what they do; why they do not believe what they don’t; how they have traditionally viewed themselves, Scripture, Tradition and a variety of topics. I realized that this was not just a PR exercise (though that a good enough reason in itself) but in fact could reduce misunderstanding, prejudice and bigotry, even if we can never entirely eliminate these. And the reactions I have received in email and letters to the book, even exceeded my expectations in these regards.
I was interested in your comments about Jesus, that you believe he was a Pharisee who was happy with most Pharisees of his day but upset with a few who were desecrating the tradition they were custodians of.
What do you imagine Jesus would say to RT Kendall and other Christians like him who believe God has placed a “double blindness” on all Jews?
Firstly I think he would warn RT not to judge others and to have more faith in God’s unlimited love and ability to relate to all people in all their diversity and thus for there to be diverse ways of relating to God (which is of course one of my main arguments in the book.)
Then I would think he would tell RT how puzzled he is by all this foreign Greek thought that has corrupted plain and simple Hebrew thinking - and in his name, no less !
He would say to him, I didn’t teach anything about vicarious atonement or incarnation and all this theology business. Didn’t I tell you that the most important things are to love God and love your neighbor ? Stop wasting your time with all this theoretical business and just live life the right way, with compassion and love, in keeping with God’s commandments.
What do you imagine Jesus would say to you? Do you think you’d be friends with Jesus if he were alive today?
He might pat me on the back for having reached out to others, pursuing peace and reconciliation; founding interfaith bodies and a human rights organization like Rabbis for Human Rights - although he might warn me of the danger of any self-satisfaction let alone self-righteousness.
He might actually be critical of the overwhelming focus of my work today with religious leadership and tell me that I should be spending more time with the simple folk - for my own good, not theirs. He might tell me to spend more time on charitable initiatives and get back to the grass roots education that I used to be more involved in - again for my own good as much as anything.
I would like to think that he would be open to hearing my defense of his criticisms.
I would like to think that we would be friends, but he might find me a bit frustrating.
Anything else you’d like to add?
The request of the Psalmist. Seek the peace of Jerusalem - may all that love ( her), prosper.
Thank you for taking time to answer my questions. It’s been very encouraging to me reading your website and learning about the all interfaith dialog you’re involved in. We hope your future interfaith dialog endeavors will be enjoyable and productive.
Comment by: joe
1 11/6/07 4:58 AM | Comment Link |Sounds like a nice guy.
I still can’t get a handle on religion that demands that place is important though (this whole jerusalem thing). I’ve been there. It is nothing very special. Get over it and move on.
Comment by: Helen
2 11/6/07 6:06 AM | Comment Link |Joe wrote:
Yes, he certainly does. Just the fact he was willing to take time to answer my questions convinced me of that!
Joe, I wonder if Jews (and other people) think “I still can’t get a handle on religion that demands that one person is important though (this whole Jesus thing). Get over it and move on.”
Comment by: Helen
3 11/6/07 6:14 AM | Comment Link |I love what David Rosen said about what he thinks Jesus would say to RT Kendall and to him.
I find myself agreeing more with David Rosen than RT Kendall about Jesus (as best I can tell about RT Kendall’s views).
Comment by: Steve S.
4 11/6/07 8:04 AM | Comment Link |…but Helen, isn’t the very reason that one person is considered so important to the Christians because this belief is a fundamental tenet of the Jewish faith!
(I am certainly open to hearing that I am wrong, but it can’t be denied that the central Christian claims, whether or not they are true, is that the Jewish hope is fulfilled, Christianity was first and foremost an attempt to express pure Judaism…)
As I understand the text, one of the fundamental problems the Jewish Establishment had in accepting the Jewish Jesus and His Jewish followers was precisely that Jesus (and the subsequent community of Jewish disciples) were claiming that God wanted to include the whole world in what He was doing!
Wasn’t moving beyond the place (Jerusalem, Temple) the very thing that got Jesus et al in hot water?
Comment by: Helen
5 11/6/07 9:15 AM | Comment Link |Steve, with all due respect I don’t really want to go there - what I didn’t like about the original interview was, it was the Christian telling the Jew how wrong the Jew was from the Christian point of view.
I want to listen to Rabbi Rosen, not have more discussion about how the Christians are right and the Jews should have figured that out.
What do you think of what Rabbi Rosen said - (in your opinion) did he say anything meaningful and insightful?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
6 11/6/07 10:45 AM | Comment Link |I agree with Helen. The whole who is right and who is wrong thing is so old,worn out and boring that I won’t even engage with it.
What is interesting is that the Christian (RT) was being political by playing to his constituency (Cs) who expect him to say what he said while appearing to be open minded.
I say nice try but no cigar. More “fake” niceness from a pastor who has to say what he said so the troops dont jump him for selling out on the “gospel” (aka propositional truth)
Rosen expresses the gospel of Jesus much more clearly than Kendall (IMHO)
Comment by: Steve S.
7 11/6/07 4:44 PM | Comment Link |I am sorry that this is how I came across, I was not remotely trying to say that, “Jews just need to become Christians…”
I just found it interesting that the conversation jumped from the exclusivity of the Judaic faith to the exclusivity of the Christian faith without ever noting that condemning the exclusivity of the Jewish establishment was one of the primary reasons the Jewish Rabbi Jesus was in such political hot-water…
In fact, my point was also how Jesus’ point of view was precisely more Jewish than the Establishment of His day, not imposing a contemporary dichotomy (Christian v Jew) upon a social setting that simply had no such dispute.
Sorry, I can’t always communicate what I am trying to, and I hope this post wasn’t also inflamatory!!
Comment by: Steve S.
8 11/6/07 4:56 PM | Comment Link |ps the thing about Rosen that I noticed was his claim that Jesus was Jewish and would have been quite sympathetic to the Pharisees as a whole.
This is along the lines of what I was trying to say above (and above)
Comment by: Helen
9 11/6/07 8:32 PM | Comment Link |Steve wrote:
Steve, I have no idea how accurate the New Testament portrayals of the Establishment and Jesus are. I also don’t feel qualified to make judgments about how Jewish Jesus was. You write as if you assume I will buy into your version of events - I find that confusing since you know I’m almost an atheist. If I was sure the Bible was true I’d still be a Christian!
Comment by: Marcia
10 11/7/07 6:55 AM | Comment Link |I love this.
Comment by: Rachel
11 11/7/07 8:10 AM | Comment Link |Congratulations on the interview, Helen! I particularly liked this question and Rabbi Rosen’s insightful answer.
Helen, I think you are being a bit tough on Steve. I don’t hear Steve making assumptions about what you believe. I simply hear him expressing what he believes.
Comment by: Steve S.
12 11/7/07 8:38 AM | Comment Link |Sorry, Helen, I wasn’t trying to push something on you, I assumed we were all on common historical ground here…
(yes, I know what it means to assume…)
;-)
I was really only affirming what I have never heard anyone deny, but what is often ignored (by Christains, never by Jews), and rarely thought through in terms of practical implications.
Jesus was a Jewish popular leader who landed himself in hot water with the powers-that-be of his day…
I didn’t think there was anything controversial about that, it seems like that is what Rabbi Rosen was essentially trying to get accross in his interaction with the other fellow…
Sorry for the miscommunication!
Comment by: Helen
13 11/7/07 8:42 AM | Comment Link |Thanks Rachel!
It wasn’t my intention to be mean to Steve.
The way Steve expressed himself didn’t give me room to disagree because, to me, all this was asserted like fact, not opinion:
He didn’t say “As we all agree” but the way he wrote it didn’t give me space to disagree and that feels very invalidating to me - it pushes a lot of buttons that most likely two decades of being [a woman who thinks about things] in the conservative Christian world installed.
I feel like I’d feel if someone responded to a woman talking about their desire to see more women in Christian leadership with “the point is, if Jesus had wanted women in leadership he wouldn’t have chosen twelve men to be his disciples”.
Anyway…maybe we hear different things because of our backgrounds or maybe I overreacted in which case thank you for calling me on it :)
Comment by: Helen
14 11/7/07 8:48 AM | Comment Link |Hi Steve, we cross-commented…
Perhaps I jumped to conclusions about what you were saying - if so my apologies. Thanks for bearing with me.
For what it’s worth, I’m not sure how much of the NT is historical and how much is propaganda/myth/wishful thinking.
Comment by: Rachel
15 11/7/07 9:01 AM | Comment Link |I sure know all about those buttons, Helen! I’ve got lots of ‘em too. :-)
Comment by: Mysical Seeker
16 11/7/07 9:36 AM | Comment Link |Just yesterday I wrote a reaction to the Christianity Today interview in my blog, and then today I ran across this blog entry of yours. It was interesting to hear David Rosen’s reaction to Kendall’s nonsense in the interview that you published here. David Rosen shows an impressive amount of patience.
Comment by: Helen
17 11/7/07 9:49 AM | Comment Link |Thanks Mystical Seeker. I also think David Rosen was very patient!
Comment by: Yael
18 11/7/07 2:53 PM | Comment Link |Great interview, Helen. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
It was nice to see Rabbi Rosen treated with the respect due him as a rabbi.
Comment by: Helen
19 11/7/07 5:26 PM | Comment Link |Thanks Yael!
I always try to be respectful to people (although I expect I don’t always succeed)
Comment by: Randy
20 11/7/07 7:26 PM | Comment Link |Sorry…late to the party again, as usual. Great follow up, Helen. It was also kind of the Rabbi to participate in the interview. I thought it was interesting how he sounded sort of resigned to his fundamentalist friend’s lack of respect and kindness, as if it were some incurable disability he was innocently born with. Jesus would be proud of his kindness to his friend.
Peter would have kicked his friends ass.
Comment by: Steve S.
21 11/7/07 9:41 PM | Comment Link |Comment by: cipher
22 11/8/07 6:22 AM | Comment Link |Helen,
I’ve just recently discovered your blog, through Yael and because of the “Christian and the Pharisee”. I’m glad you wrote to Rabbi Rosen; I was going to email him myself to ask why he agreed to engage Kendall, knowing that his mind wouldn’t be changed, and that he probably wouldn’t understand much of what Rosen would have to say - which appears to be the case.
There’s something I don’t quite understand, though. Kendall is a Calvinist. He believes that God has predetermined who is to be saved, and who is to be damned. Why does he go to the effort of continually trying to convert Rabbi Rosen? I understand that the belief in that quarter is that hearing the gospel can somehow “activate” the realization that one is already saved - but, if that were the case, once should be enough. Why does he keep trying? From his perspective, Rosen is obviously one of the “lost”. The only way I can understand it is to see it as an example of the cognitive dissonance so prevalent in that world.
Regarding historical accuracy: here is an article written by a professor at Yeshiva University. He asserts that the events pertaining to Jesus’ trial can’t be accurate, as they contradict Jewish legal procedures, and why we have to be careful when reading external sources, such as Josephus.
Comment by: Sarx » So a Rabbi and an Evangelist write a book…
23 11/9/07 12:40 AM | Comment Link |[...] Helen shares with us an email Interview with Rabbi David Rosen You can skip to the end and leave a comment. Pinging is currently not allowed. RSS [...]