Posted by Helen on: 11.16.2007 /
Beth Bates sent me this e-mail today. As Beth and her friend Traci go on this adventure we’re hoping they’ll write about it for us. Please share any thoughts or suggestions you have with them.
So my atheist friend Traci and I are about to embark on a Jim and Casperesque trek up the jagged mountains of women’s ministries in our area, and we’re not sure how to pack. We’re uncertain as to how long we’ll be camping at each peak.
How long should one stay in order to maximize the view and experience? One session? Two?
Women’s ministries aren’t typically a drop-in sort of affair. There are sign-ups and fees and small group assignments, unless we just drop in unannounced.
We aim to be fair and ethical in our reporting. Is one stop enough to form an informed impression of a women’s ministry event or study?
If you were to read such an article or book, what criteria would you wish to see measured? What characteristics would you want scrutinized?
I covet your responses. Thank you in advance.
Comment by: Helen
1 11/16/07 11:55 AM | Comment Link |Hi Beth, these are great questions!
One of the most often voiced complaints about the Jim and Casper book is that Jim and Casper ‘didn’t give churches a fair chance’ because they only went to the Sunday Service and only went once.
To which one response might be “thank you for your comments” and another might be “churches who get on the sales and marketing bandwagon need to realize how it is in that world - no other business gets to say “hey, it’s not fair not to keep trying our coffee just because the first cup sucked!”" To gain customers you have to provide something good enough in their first experience that they come back. If you don’t, you shouldn’t expect to see them again.
Anyway - from a reader point of view, I think going back to the same ministry can be just as interesting as switching each time - because if you go back there’s an unfolding story there - we can see whether it gets better or worse on repeated exposure :).
It would be very Off The Map-ish to frame this as if you are letting Traci lead. Maybe you choose the ministries but let her say if she can stand to go back another week or not. The two of you can bring up this “it’s not fair only go to once” issue; you can say maybe she didn’t like it because she wasn’t used to it - or whatever. And then when the two of you go back you can smash the myth to pieces that somehow suddenly Traci is going to love on week 2 what she hates on week 1.
You can probably only do this once because Traci will wise up and not fall for the ‘you’ll get used to it and love it in a few weeks’ line once it’s failed at one place.
However who knows…maybe you’ll find a place so open and interesting she’ll WANT to go back.
Anyway I think what will engage readers is the two of you sharing what actually happens week by week, wherever you are - with Traci being very honest about her experiences - and you also being vulnerable and sharing when you feel embarrassed, or when Traci’s insights show you a side of things you hadn’t seen before. (Or speaking up if you respect Traci’s opinion but you just don’t see it the way she does)
I think the main thing is, you and Traci need a plan you’re excited about - if you’re excited about it that will make your writing more compelling than trying to abide by any particular guidelines I or someone else might come up with.
I’m excited to hear what happens on your women’s ministry adventure!
Comment by: Randy
2 11/16/07 12:52 PM | Comment Link |Fantastic adventure, Beth!
What are you hoping to discern by a visit (or two)? If you’re looking to discover how a women’s ministry will feel to a newcomer (and perhaps in particular an atheist newcomer), then your length of stay can be one session. This question sort of gets irrelevant on the second trip.
If you’re hoping to see if the two of you can feel welcomed and included despite your very different views, that may take a second or third visit to get to the reality part. People can be very kind initially, particularly if they know you’re new and that you won’t be bothering them again. You’ll have to press the group by showing up a few times to really find out what they’re made of.
I would add, as a guy whose wife is VERY involved in the women’s bible study deal at our church (she’s one of the leaders), the purpose of the groups will have a lot to do with how they handle you two being there. If it is designed to develop and foster connection between CHRISTIAN women, then obviously having an atheist try to connect will be difficult. The groups at our church are less purposeful than that, so we’ve had several non-christian women participate over the years (only one who decided to follow Jesus that I know of, over a five year period). The experience will depend largely on the point of the gathering.
I bet my wife will be really interested in how this turns out. I hope you will keep us posted here!
Comment by: Elaine
3 11/16/07 1:53 PM | Comment Link |How brave of you to attend a women’s ministry gathering. Can you tell I have had several bad experiences in a traditional women’s events?
To build on what Randy has said - whenever I try a new group - I have a rule of 3 - I have to go 3 times before I can stop (unless it is so horrific the first time) - most things I can stand for 3 times.
Think of it like dating - initally, it is all wonderful - the 2nd date - you notice a few things you didn’t notice before - maybe have a few doubts and by the 3rd date I can say, yes this will work for me - I can accept this person’s flaws and they seem okay with my flaws.
Of course, some 1st dates are so terrible - you need to run away as fast as you can. :)
I don’t know how that applies to your “adventure” since your goal is a little different. but there it is…my 2 cents.
Keep us posted on your adventures…
Comment by: Beth
4 11/16/07 3:03 PM | Comment Link |Excellent points you raise, Helen, Elaine and Randy. Thanks too, H.E.R., for taking the time. I’d be interested to hear your wife’s thoughts too, Randy.
I’m sold on my church’s women’s ministries, but I’ve experienced some lousy, unwelcoming ones too. So much of the success depends on the attitude of the one attending, in my experience. But there are bad apples in every bunch, right? (Or else that wouldn’t be an expression.)
An added twist is that we’ll be bringing Traci’s toddler who happens to be mixed-race, which is a non-issue for most, I believe. It’ll just be an added dimension to see how nurseries are run and moms are treated (well, I would expect.)
Thanks again, and keep the salient ideas coming!
Comment by: Karen
5 11/16/07 3:19 PM | Comment Link |What a fun idea! I look forward to reading about it.
I was never big on the traditional women’s ministries in the churches I attended, which seemed to cater to women who didn’t work outside the home. However, I attended MOPS (mother of preschoolers) and BSF (bible study fellowship) which were all female, but I don’t know if those would count in your survey.
Actually, I would say probably yes, unless you happen to show up on a day that they’ve got something special happening that’s not reflective of the typical meeting schedule. I think one visit to BSF or MOPS would give you a good idea of what the groups were all about.
Hmmm … how welcoming they are to newcomers, what the agenda is all about, what the speakers or activities are and how comfortable both Christians and atheists feel with them. It might be interesting to try and get some read on what they think their members’ priorities and interests are (i.e., do they appeal to working women, single women, childless women as well as married mothers?).
If Traci’s going to reveal that she’s an atheist, I’d love to hear how she does that and what the reactions are. It would also be interesting to hear what the follow up from the group itself is like - if any.
Comment by: Helen
6 11/16/07 3:22 PM | Comment Link |Randy wrote:
My experience with groups in general is - if you show up to them they tend to expect that means you are interested in becoming one of them. I’ve never encountered a group, as best I can recall, which is closed to this type of visitor.
However, if it becomes clear “no, I’m happy as a not-one-of-you” that tends to confuse them and make them wonder why you’re there. They might get annoyed and feel you’re betraying the closeness and purpose of the group at that point.
I could imagine you and Traci might run into some of that - although I don’t think it necessarily means you did anything wrong - taking an atheist to a Christian womens group because she’s curious seems reasonable to me as long as neither of you are openly disruptive.
If Christians find themselves wrong-footed when they realize Traci is settled in her atheism the problem was their expectations, not necessarily anything she said or did.
I run into this on Christian blogs sometimes where I post comments about Jesus and people who don’t know me interact with me a bit assuming I’m ‘one of them’. Then someone follows my link back here, finds out I’m almost an atheist and then gets annoyed with me and says “Hey why do you care anyway? What are you even doing here?”
Comment by: Helen
7 11/16/07 3:36 PM | Comment Link |Beth - LOL, I was wondering who this royal capitalized female “HER” was then I realized it was the initials of me, Elaine and Randy!
Anyway - based on my experience, it can be eye-opening how Christian friends behave when you show up with an atheist rather than by yourself. Hopefully you’re not in for any nasty surprises when you bring Traci to groups you thought were great. That could be the emotionally difficult part for you - if you find they treat Traci in a way you find offensive. As I said hopefully that won’t happen.
Karen I think it’s funny we attended the same groups - MOPS and BSF. Our local MOPS group is actually a nicely mixed group - it has quite a few mothers in it who aren’t conservative Christians or even Christians at all and it has women who work part-time professionally or used to in their former pre-kid lives. So on the whole it’s varied enough for women with a variety of viewpoints and life situations to fit. I’ve heard that the groups west of here are more homogeneous and people used to our group who moved found them hard to get used to after ours.
Funnily enough I just went with a friend to MOPS this morning - after being out of it myself for about 7 years since my youngest is now 12. I went to take a friend who had her first baby a couple of months ago. I know she could have gone by herself but…I wanted to help her connect with people if I could and have a good first experience. Anyway, she goes to my ex-church so of the two of us I was the ‘almost atheist’, not her :).
I hardly knew anyone myself but I was in BSF years ago with the co-ordinator and it was fun to see her and reconnect a little. I was glad we could talk without my almost-atheism being a big barrier - although I’m sure she probably didn’t see it as good news. I enjoyed being in a BSF group with her - she has a great heart - and I’m sure she’s been a wonderful leader in her roles with MOPS.
And my friend enjoyed it and people there welcomed her and were friendly to her - which I was very happy to see.
Comment by: Beth
8 11/17/07 9:24 AM | Comment Link |MOPS, God love them, would provide enough entertaining material to fill a book. How did you ladies feel about the craft? I couldn’t get past the craft. In fact, I had that feeling of “Is this a nightmare?” when I found myself, post-master’s degree, seated like a preschooler at a round table with seven other young women, decoupaging a terra cotta pot with flowery napkins, my infant gurgling in his carseat by my feet. It just did not work for me, but I know many who swear by it. Seems like fluoxetine would work just as well at warding off depression associated with that era of parenting. Call me hard to please.
A key question for us is, “What is our goal?” I’m wired to make it educational, or helpful in the end. I hope Traci’s and my tour will ultimately be helpful to women’s ministry, to make it more effective and reflective of Christ’s open arms to all women, not just the pretty, well-appointed ones with the Bible knowledge pedigree. Of course, that does depend on the response of any who care to read or listen.
If they read/listen, will women’s ministry folks reconsider how they come across to a population they’re not necessarily trying to target? And if they aren’t trying to target un-churched or non-believing women, why is that so? Does women’s ministry have permission to compartmentalize and be welcoming only to those already in the fold? Are they part of church that gets to be exempt from reaching out? I realize that, generally, a primary goal of women’s ministry is to grow women in their faith with Christ, and my church exceeds in aces in that role. But is it effective in welcoming women who need Jesus but don’t know it? Can spiritually curious but evangelically unconvinced women be comfortable there? Can a woman at the well, let alone a moral atheist, find a home and safe passage to the one true Lover her spirit longs for?
These are my random thoughts.
Comment by: Beth
9 11/17/07 9:41 AM | Comment Link |(I don’t think I was speaking in tongues up there in that previous post.)
Comment by: Helen
10 11/17/07 10:48 AM | Comment Link |I fixed the weird characters, Beth :)
There used to be a feature letting you edit your own comments…I need to see what happened to that. Maybe it got turned off.
Anyway, about MOPS - I did the crafts for a while but I’m just not a crafts sort of person really, so eventually I decided to just socialize during that time.
I think some Moms really like it so - well, I’m happy for them :)
My kids were always interested to see what I made, by the way.
I don’t think Prozac (generic or not) can do what MOPS does for mothers. MOPS is a place where you can have a break from your children for a couple of hours and talk to other mothers who understand what life is like as a Mom. Whatever it is there’s probably someone else there going through it or who has gone through it.
Funnily enough I was at MOPS yesterday - a friend of mine had her first baby a couple of months ago and wanted to go. I said “How about if I meet you there?” I only knew a couple of people - it was a nice surprise that the current coordinator was a wonderful woman I met in BSF some years ago. So I did know her.
Our local MOPS group is much more mixed than many of them. It often has a lot of members who aren’t Christians and the speakers they invite often talk about general interest rather than ‘Christian’ topics.
I don’t see justification for any Christian group being closed to the ’spiritually curious’, given the Great Commission “go and make disciples of all nations” - and nations generally means “people currently not self-identifying as followers of Jesus”.
Tell us about Traci’s viewpoint - or feel free to invite her here to comment. We’d love to meet her too! Why does Traci want to subject herself to groups of women who think she’s going to hell and think worship and in depth Bible study is worthwhile - which is presumably not what Traci thinks? Is she going because she’s curious to know what you and your friends get up to in these groups? I assume she’s not going because she is thinking she wants to become a Christian.
Comment by: Beth
11 11/17/07 11:24 AM | Comment Link |Traci doesn’t really exist.
Just joking. She’s watching and waiting, I believe. But she does feel welcome, and that’s a good thing.
Comment by: Karen
12 11/17/07 11:30 AM | Comment Link |We’re obviously twins separated at birth, Helen. :-)
Our group had a small number of non-Christians in it. In fact, one of my book club friends is Jewish and she goes to the MOPS group I attended years ago and likes it.
I know, however, that she’s felt uncomfortable at times and under some pressure to convert because the church is very evangelical and she’s been told they are praying for her to accept Jesus. She’s also been given Jews for Jesus materials and attended at least one of their meetings at the urging of a MOPS friend.
She told me that she was especially emotional one day and burst into tears after a speaker told a pretty maudlin story about a child’s death. (The maudlin story being a staple of this particular group, I have to add.) Her small group leader turned to her and said, “I think you’re close to coming to Christ,” which made her feel weird.
She does like the support and the friendships with other moms whose children are the same age, especially since she’s an older mom (my age) who had her first child very late in life so she doesn’t have many friends whose kids are small.
Comment by: Karen
13 11/17/07 11:45 AM | Comment Link |ROTFLMAO!! That’s the funniest thing I’ve read in a long time, Beth.
Having worked for years in a competitive, male-dominated profession, I had that same “nightmare” feeling at the crafts table. It really was like entering a completely different world, totally unconnected to my previous life. And believe me, it was shocking to see how sweet, soft-spoken Christian ladies could push and shove like linebackers when there was a wait for the glue gun and the five-minute bell wrapping up crafts time sounded. It could get ugly! ;-)
In general, though, I liked MOPS. Although I continued to work part-time, I enjoyed the break, enjoyed getting out of the house (I work at home), enjoyed the inspiration and encouragement and enjoyed the chance to talk about some of the difficulties of child-rearing with other mothers. My kids generally enjoyed the children’s program, so it wasn’t so hard to get them to attend.
Things I found challenging about it: There was definitely a “facade” there that I sensed in other Christian women’s programs. All the leaders and speakers were required to wear dresses, hose and makeup, for instance. There was a “perkiness” and what we’ve taken to calling the “happy-happy-joy-joy” attitude about everything. I often felt like a dismal slob (and worse, a spiritual slacker) if I showed up discouraged, sleep-deprived and wearing whatever I could find that wasn’t covered in spit-up or worse.
I think I would have enjoyed it more if there was permission to admit our frustrations and be more “real” in our discussions.
Comment by: Rose
14 11/17/07 12:14 PM | Comment Link |hello all,I will admit up front I may be derailing this conversation and if so, I apologize. I really don’ t get “women’s ministries” I don’t view the Kingdom made up that way…especially not the church activity of the Kingdom. I want to encourage men and women to do kingdom activity so I am not against a men’s group that meets around issues that are specific to their gender (same for women) but to develop “women’s ministries” somehow in my mind reinforces ghetto mentality within church and para-church orgs. IMHO
Comment by: Traci
15 11/17/07 12:19 PM | Comment Link |Here I am — the Traci in question. It’s been interesting following this conversation from the fringe.
So, Helen, you’re right: I’m not thinking that I want to become a Christian. I would like to experience these groups because the impulse toward religion and its power to draw people together (and push them apart) is absolutely fascinating to me. I’ve told people that I feel like I just don’t have the religion gene. The idea of faith is foreign to me, even though (or maybe because — heh, heh) I was raised Catholic.
As I told Beth, imagining myself as a believer is kind of like trying to imagine what sex feels like for a man. I just don’t have the parts.
It shocked me to read that these women will think that I’m “going to hell.” I guess I’m removed enough from the ideology that I just didn’t think of that, and I wonder what that means for how they’ll relate to me.
I really don’t have an agenda for taking part in the groups. Certainly I’m not going in trying to convince anyone of my own notions. I just very much want to see what goes on, what draws women to these groups, and what they get out of them.
Further, I hope to hear and be part of some thoughtful discussions. I anticipate working my mind in ways I haven’t, and that’s exciting as, well, hell.
Going to a bible study group is for me a little like traveling to Egypt. It’s exotic and totally unkown. And that’s exciting, too, if I’m telling the whole story.
Beth put it better than I’m about to, but she mentioned something about a soul crying out for the Lord or somesuch, and I don’t want to get anybody’s hopes up in that arena, but if I find I’m drawn to all this for reasons different from those I just mentioned — heck, I’m open to that, as well.
Comment by: Helen
16 11/17/07 12:23 PM | Comment Link |Thanks Karen - yes, I think we might be twins separated at birth! It’s funny how similar some of our experiences have been.
Rose I really appreciate you sharing.
Comment by: Helen
17 11/17/07 12:39 PM | Comment Link |Traci, thanks for posting here!
I think it would be neat for the Christian women to have a fun, personable atheist visit. They might not know any atheists like you. It could change the way they look at all atheists.
It will be an exciting adventure which may hurt at times because of some of the interactions you might have. If you feel like you’ve entered a different world sometimes, well, it’s probably because you have.
I wrote this last year about how it is in some Bible study groups: The Range of Acceptable Answers. You might run into groups whose range is quite rigid…around here we try not to have a range but, it’s always a challenge to stay open and we all have our buttons that get pushed from time to time. (At least I know I do!)
Comment by: Beth
18 11/17/07 4:03 PM | Comment Link |Interesting perspective. Thank you for your feedback; I don’t at all view it as a derailment. You raise a valid point, one that I would expect to factor into our research. I see women’s ministries, at least where I’ve lived, as a cultural phenomenon.
Whether or not we like them or see them as Biblical or helpful, they’re alive and kicking in evangelical churches. I’m aim in our tour to ascertain whether the ones we encounter are relevant and welcoming to an outsider…are they otherly?
Would you please say more about the “ghetto mentality” within church and para church organizations?
Comment by: Traci
19 11/18/07 4:58 AM | Comment Link |Exciting point, Helen. I will represent my people!
How often do you meet an open atheist? I think Beth said I was the only one she knew around here.
Comment by: Helen
20 11/18/07 6:13 AM | Comment Link |Hi Traci! Yes, you will represent atheists and I’m confident you’ll represent them well!
At the same time I’m hoping you’ll confuse some Christians a little by being more like them than they expected an ‘atheist’ to be :)
What do you mean by ‘open’? Do you mean ‘openly says “I’m an atheist”‘ or ‘is open to changing his/her mind about being an atheist should the right evidence come along’ or ‘ curious enough to go to Christian women’s ministries to learn more about them’ - or all of these (or something else)?
In my experience, the abundance of negative stereotypes of atheists often causes atheists not to push the point that that’s what they are. Although I expect they would say “I’m an atheist” if asked a direct question. Lots of people (including Christians) aren’t curious enough to ask that sort of direct question so they might not realize how many atheists they know. I don’t mean that to be about Beth who seems wonderfully curious - if she says you’re the only atheist she knows locally I expect she’s right.
One of Off The Map’s missions is to encourage Christians (or anyone) to be curious about other people and really listen to them.
My own experience has helped convince me how incurious (is that a word?) many people are. Over the last few years I’ve moved from being a relatively conservative Christian to ‘almost an atheist’. As that transition was happening I continued to go to church for quite a while. Inwardly I was moving further and further away from what other people there believed (as best I could tell). I was shocked to realize that as long as I continued to ’say the right answers’ no-one seemed to pick up on what was happening inside me. So I suppose I am one of those people who was not open. I’m more open now than I was then.
As an almost atheist my big-picture responses tend to be “I don’t know” much more than “I don’t believe”. I’m not sure whether cowardice or honesty drives that - maybe a mixture of both?
From a numbers point of view I think only 10% of people in the US say they are atheists? This is another reason Christians might know few to no atheists.
Regarding atheists being curious enough to visit groups: based on my experience it would be unusual for someone to show up at a Christian womens ministry meeting and say “I’m an atheist”. I can’t ever remember that happening in a group I was in. I can imagine less curious atheists thinking it would be a total waste of time. And perhaps it would be, for them.
Although I tend to think it’s generally not a waste of time intentionally going into situations where we’re face to face with people not like us (especially if we have lots of presuppositions about them). It’s an ideal opportunity to replace presuppositions with the reality of first-hand experience. And to make some interesting new friends (if they’re open to being friends with us).
Comment by: Helen
21 11/18/07 6:33 AM | Comment Link |It seems like one big problem with Christian women’s groups is, some promote ideas of what a women should be that doesn’t work for lots of Christian women - including some women who’ve been posting here.
Ironically Christian women may feel just as out of place in Christian womens groups as Traci might.
Traci can walk away and think “No big deal - they are non-atheists; of course their image of what a woman should be doesn’t work for me because it’s about non-atheist women”.
But Christian women may struggle with feelings of guilt and inadequacy if they don’t match up to the ’shoulds’ presented in those meetings. They can’t so easily say “this doesn’t apply to me”. Because what if the leaders of those groups are right and this really is what God wants them to be like?
At least…I’ve struggled with that.
Comment by: Elaine
22 11/18/07 8:18 AM | Comment Link |Helen - I think you may have opened a whole ‘nother conversation about women’s groups and why they don’t work for many of us.
I realize what I am about to say is not true for all “women’s” events/gatherings. I’ve even been in a few women’s small group (less than 6) which did work.
But, the few women’s retreats/large ministry functions I have gone on seemed to be too much about “feeling” things and not enough substance. Nothing to take away with me…an action I can take after leaving.
While I like a good inspirational speech/talk - I want it to move me to action or to shift my thinking or something. I leave feeling bad about myself because most others seem to have gotten it. What ever it is. Instead, it fades away and I remain the same.
Geneva Vollrath is a new Board member with Off The Map. She is the CEO and President of Stonecroft Ministries. Stonecroft is women’s ministry, founded and run by women for 70 years. They are about developing Christian women to be leaders. They have been about training and equipping women to find their voices and serve. Wow!
Because I have met Geneva, Stonecroft has piqued my curiosity. I may have to sign up for one of their conferences. :)
(Helen - fix the link for me, please.)
Comment by: Rose
23 11/18/07 8:29 AM | Comment Link |Beth,
I will try to explain my thoughts. I believe that men and women have a place in not only participating but leading in the church. The dichotomy of having “women’s ministries” and men’s ministries” in my opinion is part of an underlying symptom that reinforces a ghetto mentality (probably not intentionally or consciously) especially for women. Most women are relegated to lead “women’s ministries, or “children’s ministries” therefore a “ghetto mentality”. What I think would be helpful is for churches to look and see what kind of groups are necessary for the health and life of their purpose (mission) and then form ministry from the people that have the gift, talent, passion. Of course some of them might be gender specific…I hope this makes sense?
Comment by: Traci
24 11/18/07 8:54 AM | Comment Link |Howdy again.
Helen, when I called myself an “open atheist,” I was using “open” in the “public” sense. Not that I go around wearing it on a nametag, but in the situations we’re going into, I think it’d be dishonest not to acknowledge that I’m an interloper.
I also like to think I’m open in the sense of “accepting,” but I guess we’ll see . . .
I have no expectation whatever that I’m going to change my mind about atheism b/c of this experience, but I do feel I’m open to it based only on my “never say never” philosophy. Certainly this project is going to make me look deeply at what I believe, which isn’t something I’ve done in a while. I settled into atheism a long time ago and haven’t since washed the drapes in its living room.
I couldn’t agree with you more about the benefits of getting out of one’s comfort zone. This project is going to do that for me — boy howdy — and I look forward to that.
If 10% of people in the United States identify as atheists, that’s a big shift. Last I knew, only something like 2% did not claim a “belief in a higher power” and only a small portion of those called themselves atheists.
Helen, what you mention in your last post intrigues me a lot — the pressure to fit in with the women’s groups. To me, it seems that faith is so common and so big that it can’t serve as a basis for relationships. There’s no, “You’re a Methodist? Me too. We’ll be friends forever” because one Methodist may be a soccer-playing Republican bachelor who works as a publisher and the other a sedentary liberal family man who drives a bus. There are so many variables and so many ways to believe, I would think, that imagining you’re going to have other things in common than your church is a real stretch.
After I had a kid, I tried hanging out with some other women I knew who were mothers. Most of my friends didn’t have kids, so I wanted to share that bond with some new people.
Didn’t work. Having a kid was not enough to base a friendship on. I didn’t happen to have anything else in common with these women.
I kind of imagine the women’s groups being like that — a lot of women who otherwise wouldn’t get together. And then it sounds like there’s the extra not-fitting-in aspect if you don’t match up with whoever leads the group or the overall tone of it. I can’t imagine how devastating that would be for someone who really wants to be a part of the group not to feel welcomed by or connected to those in it. I can see where you’re coming from, Helen, when you mention guilt and feelings of inadequacy resulting.
Gadzooks.
Comment by: Elaine
25 11/18/07 8:56 AM | Comment Link |Great definition, Rose. Thanks. I couldn’t agree more.
Any thoughts/experience in overcoming the Christian sterotype that “women” aren’t to lead men?
Comment by: Rose
26 11/18/07 9:07 AM | Comment Link |Elaine
I hold the view of this from a theology of the kingdom ala George Ladd, N.T. Wright where men and women are equal in every way. I don’t know how to help overcome the Christian stereotype that “women” aren’t to lead men other than men and women leaving churches that do not support women leading. As you know, we have a very large church in Seattle that does not support women in leadership. Frankly I am amazed at the people that go there and say things like, “well it’s a happening church” “our kids like it” I wonder if we went back 50-60 years and the church did not believe black men or women could be in leadership…would they stay because it’s happening (meaning it’s a big church with great programs) and their kids like it? To me the women’s issue is a Kingdom issue …it is a matter of justice — justice meaning what’s right…and a long, long answer would address the issue of power.
Comment by: Beth
27 11/18/07 2:40 PM | Comment Link |Your definition smacks of Jesus, Rose, on the topic of equality. But I do think well-meaning women’s ministries are driven by need for support and women-specific issues. At least that’s my hunch.
Comment by: Helen
28 11/18/07 4:04 PM | Comment Link |Hi Traci, thanks for your response!
I would think it would be fine for you to be open about being an atheist, as long as you come across as respectfully curious.
I thought professed atheists was up to about 10% but I could be wrong.
For many people, being a Christian isn’t just ‘an interest’. It’s their whole life and they’re on the front lines of a battlefield. The enemy is always trying to get them off-track and discourage them. This sort of thinking makes Christians want to hang out with other Christians who get what their lives are like. (But it’s ok for other people who might be interested in joining them on the frontlines to come along and find out more about being a Christian)
Comment by: Steve S.
29 11/18/07 9:11 PM | Comment Link |I think I am with Rose on this one…
If you are checking out a church that focuses on events and programs, then one or two events will let you know what you are in for. But what about the churches that simply don’t go in for those kinds of things? What about churches that center around relationships and people? The only real way to understand such a church would be to enter into a relationship with someone who belonged to it…
Comment by: Steve S.
30 11/18/07 9:13 PM | Comment Link |all the same I look forward to hearing your observations! Tracy, thanks for your willingness to get outside of the comfort zone…
Comment by: Helen
31 11/19/07 4:33 AM | Comment Link |Steve wrote:
In my experience it doesn’t take long to get a sense of whether members of a church community are interested in a relationship with ME or not. If they are they’ll be excited I showed up. I won’t have to put any effort into ‘understanding that they are all about relationships’ - they will clearly demonstrate that to me when I first show up.
I don’t get the whole ‘give us a chance’ attitude of churches. Like I said in my first comment, what if Starbucks said “It’s not fair to give up on us just because you didn’t like the first cup of coffee - you need to get used to it…” They’d lose to the competition. If churches can get away with this, then to me that means there’s an unfortunate lack of competition from churches who make people feel valued and accepted on their first visit.
Comment by: kathyescobar
32 11/19/07 7:59 AM | Comment Link |this will be a fun experiment. i am very interested to see how it will be for you two. my experience with women’s ministry is that it is a very closed system for fairly neat and tidies. those who wrestle, struggle, doubt, are in bad situations & stuck in shame and ugly stuff are scary to most of these groups; i think women’s ministry is one of the most unsafe places in the church. but that’s just been my experience.
and i agree with rose about ghetto mentality. it is that way with women’s ministries & also healing ministry. it is relegated to something separate, less than instead of integrated into the culture and fabric of community. i don’t have any problem with women gathering with women. sometimes i think it’s so necessary and everything can’t be shared co-ed but i hate to see all of these talented women out there who will never be able to do anything more than that in terms of leadership in their communities.
as you go out, i will be so interested what women’s reactions will be to an atheist in the group & what you will experience. i personally don’t think a one shot will do the trick on this one because it’s not really fair to judge an experience in a smaller group on one interaction. i think this one might require longer participation, but that’s just me. have fun.
Comment by: Helen
33 11/19/07 8:27 AM | Comment Link |Kathy wrote:
Thanks for commenting, Kathy!
I think this is why you had the experience you had: I think women are some of the most unsafe people in the church - but that has just been my experience.
I wonder if women who are mothers get used to a controlling/protecting role and they aren’t always good at setting that aside with their peers.
Because I have felt wayyyy too controlled by various Christian women older than me (or that’s what they attempted anyway). And it’s extra-annoying because they clothe it in an emotional framework which makes it sound like they’re being really nice to me.
Comment by: Steve S.
34 11/19/07 9:45 AM | Comment Link |…couldn’t agree more!
Comment by: Helen
35 11/19/07 11:37 AM | Comment Link |Thanks Steve. You’ve mentioned before that you have a diverse group of people in your church community. That indicates your church is succeeding at creating a safe place for people from a variety of backgrounds - I think that’s awesome.
Comment by: Staci
36 11/20/07 6:11 PM | Comment Link |I think the churches where women make other women feel particularly unsafe/controlled are those where they do not have equal access or status. This can naturally lead to women working overtime to maintain what little turf they have and taking out frustrations on each other. Not a healthy situation. It sounds like Beth is not taking Traci into this sort of situation. That is good because it wouldn’t give an accurate reaction to the actual programs as much as it would the subordination of women. (A worthy, but separate topic from what Beth describes.)
It will definitely be interesting to see how a variety of “women’s ministries” activities will be viewed by someone who is not acustom to this evangelical norm. I suspect some will be fun and some will be weird, just like visiting any new culture. It would be good to include: a multi-day retreat, a bible study, an evening event, a day time event, an activity for mothers, church activity sponsored by the women’s ministries group.
Comment by: Beth
37 11/20/07 8:14 PM | Comment Link |Staci, thank you for your practical suggestions. I like your idea of diversifying, spreading out the experiences across the board.
My own experience with women’s studies, with a couple exceptions, is that they have been nothing but warm, loving and accepting. I have high hopes that Traci will see this positive side of women’s ministry. But you never know, and that’s what makes our project an adventure.
I’ll keep the site here posted as we map our plan and then execute it.
Comment by: Steve S.
38 11/21/07 5:16 AM | Comment Link |I guess what I was getting at is, I have observed people coming to ‘check out’ the programs…
“music, check”
“child-care, check”
“sermons, check”
“women/men ministry, check”
…and miss the whole point that it is supposed to be about God and people. I know that the church often feeds this dysfunction, but there are many communities that are actively bucking the trend. It is an oddity for people when they come and visit us looking for a “church experience” because we don’t really do a great job of providing that. But if they are looking for a community to belong to where God is sought…
Really the main thing we have done to foster a safe-environment is refuse to offer people typical church programs, really anything other than Jesus and each other. The people are the ones who have taken that and become a welcoming community.
…so I wanted to encourage the intrepid adventurers to keep an eye on the people, as opposed to the program.
Comment by: Helen
39 11/21/07 7:31 AM | Comment Link |Steve S wrote:
Wow - I’m not questioning your observation, Steve, but I’m amazed people come for programs and not the people.
I wonder if I was ever that way; I think the people have always been the key reason I liked or disliked something. I always looked for churches with people in who inspired me with their commitment to following Jesus. I used to assume I’d find these people in churches or Bible studies upholding particular doctrine and not in those with different beliefs - yet I think for me it was always about the people I would be with, ultimately. Not the programs. So I’m surprised to hear other people are so into the programs.
Comment by: Beth
40 11/21/07 12:45 PM | Comment Link |I think many people come for a vibe in general. A feeling of belonging, a feeling of being able to worship in his/her preferred style, a feeling of closeness to God or others or both. Among many other reasons, I’m sure.
Comment by: Steve S.
41 11/22/07 8:58 PM | Comment Link |Helen, the most common reasons I hear for people who are shopping for a church are programmatic:
I am looking for a place for my kids to go to
I want a place where they teach the ‘meat’
I want a place where the worship is hymns (or not hymns)
I want a place where they ‘do outreach’
I am looking for a singles ministry
etc. etc.
It has nothing to do with connecting to God, or to people (the two things Jesus said engulfed everything of importance within their scope!)…
Not everyone is in this camp, but quite a lot, of course my experience is colored by my context, and I can see conceivable reasons why (speculating!) Redding would see a lot more church hopping than other areas..
Comment by: Helen
42 11/23/07 6:44 AM | Comment Link |Steve, again I don’t question what you hear. As you say it seems far removed from what mattered to Jesus.
Do any of these people decide to stay at your church and if so have any of them changed their programmatic mindset, that you’ve noticed?
Are you a Vineyard pastor by the way? Have I told you my favorite local pastor is Dave the Vineyard (co-)pastor? (I’ve interacted with quite a few local pastors) My favorite retired one is Dean who I’m having the local newspaper dialog with. I ran into him around town a few days ago and he said “how can we move from dialog into encouraging people to meet local community needs?” I thought that was an awesome question.
Comment by: Steve S.
43 11/23/07 8:38 PM | Comment Link |I didn’t think you were, I was just elucidating…
Actually, the church I pastor isn’t really a place people would end up at if they were shopping.
We don’t have a Sunday morning service, or a building, or childcare.
My observations were made at the church we came from in CA. We spent 5-6 years there until they kicked us out of the nest. I think the people who came shopping and stayed are few, but there were some; I think what changed them was 1) addressing the issue 2) even more important, deeper relationships 3) even more important, people intentionally pointing them towards Jesus and others, and away from getting their own needs met…
I am a Vineyard pastor. I don’t know exactly how Vineyard I am. …but it is the place God has placed me, I have great and empowering relationships, and I am very comfortable with the way the Association operates.
Comment by: Helen
44 11/24/07 7:43 AM | Comment Link |Steve, since learning a little about Vineyard I’ve appreciated the latitude the association evidently allows individual pastors and churches to go the specific direction they believe God wants them to go.
Anyway, my apologies Beth if I got this off topic…
Comment by: Kristin DeMint
45 01/9/08 11:05 AM | Comment Link |So I’m a little late coming into this discussion string, but I read about half of it (for now — plan to read the other half later) and here’s what I’m seeing:
Backtrack to the recent post “Beth and Traci go to church” — my understanding was that underneath the surface, this whole project of sorts was more geared toward the question of whether the women’s groups would be welcoming enough and “Christ-like” enough (quotes used to signify the varying interpretations of what it means to be Christ-like) to open up Traci’s mind and bring her into the fold, with the underlying hope and motive (I mention that for the sake of being honest) that she would “get to know Jesus” upon learning about Christianity’s teachings in a loving and nonthreatening way.
After reading several of the comments here, though, it seems that we have two unrelated goals:
1) Tracy will learn firsthand about this community (i.e., Christianity, via women’s groups) and will provide an objective commentary on what she observes, more from a research perspective on the Christian religion, and
2) Beth will be looking at the women’s groups to see how they respond to an “outsider” — she’ll then provide an objective commentary that will primarily serve to identify for those participating in Christian women’s groups just how welcoming and unintimidating they truly are.
So Traci’s aim, from my understanding, is to garner personal knowledge, and Beth’s is to garner knowledge that she can share and take back to the Christian community in efforts to foster discussion, with the aim of becoming more “Christ-like” in terms of evangelism.
Traci and Beth, is my understanding correct? Just want to make sure I’m on the right page so any comments I have are correctly informed re: your purpose.
Thanks in advance for the insight!
Comment by: Helen
46 01/9/08 11:40 AM | Comment Link |Kristin, I copied your comment here since that’s where the current conversation about this project is happening.