Posted by Helen on: 11.20.2007 /
Up/rooted recently started a city of Chicago group. Their second meeting was last night. I went and invited my Dad along (who is over from England, visiting us for Thanksgiving).
I expect I will only be an occasional attender, since it’s hard for me to go places in the evening. I did want to go last night and so I did whatever I needed to make that possible. I assumed interesting people would be there who I’d enjoy meeting. I also wanted to be supportive of the facilitator Rebecca, by showing up. Also I knew Lainie, who I had lunch with last week, was planning to come and bring her friend Shawna. I wanted to see Lainie again and meet Shawna.
The meeting had started when we got there. Everyone was seated around a big square table and they moved along to make room for us. There were about twelve people there. Apart from Lainie and Rebecca, there were two other people I had met before at up/rooted meetings (or Emergent-publicized events): Nanette, pastor of Wicker Park Grace where we were meeting, and Rachel.
I’m afraid I didn’t catch/don’t remember everyone’s names…
Rebecca suggested that each person there share their story - where they’ve been and why they’re at this meeting. It was neat that everyone did share something. There was some back and forth between stories. When the last person had shared it was about 9 o’clock, which was Rebecca’s suggested end time, so she closed the meeting.
I thought I’d be the only person there who self-identified as atheist or agnostic there so I was surprised when the person next to me, one of the first to share, identified himself as currently an atheist-agnostic. He left his conservative evangelical church after someone at his church responded to the tragic death of someone very close to him with “this is all part of God’s plan”. He started attending Nanette’s church after someone told him it was a place where even atheists and agnostics were welcome. He was there at the meeting because of his connection with Nanette.
Most people there grew up attending church; many grew up in conservative evangelical churches. Some described entering college as conservative evangelicals, being shocked at the ‘liberal’ Christians/Christianity they encountered there, yet by the time they left their own thinking had shifted in that direction.
I’ve heard conservative Christians express concern about how the faith of conservative Christian college students is endangered if they go to liberal institutions. I suppose what I heard last night bears this out. On the other hand I’d say a faith that can’t survive the normal questioning of thoughtful young adults isn’t something that should be held onto anyway. One person mentioned in passing that he knows someone who went to Moody Bible Institute then became an atheist. Evidently sending a child to a conservative Christian institution won’t necessarily save them from leaving the fold.
As people continued to share they picked up on the commonality in each others’ stories with comments such as “Like you, Brian McLarens books helped me”. The names Brian McLaren and Rob Bell came up a lot.
I don’t think anyone there who wasn’t part of Nanette’s church was strongly connected with a church community that reflected their own values closely. Some are looking for churches where they fit. Two are at the less conservative edge of their church communities and one of those is wondering whether to stay and support what he likes or go do his own thing with his friends. Clearly many of the people there were happy to be at this meeting where the other people understood where they’ve been and where they are now; it was refreshing compared to some of their other experiences.
My Dad made some comments, not so much about his life story but an observation about Americans and Christianity. He said, there are many more churchgoers in America than England - which we’d expect to influence the country. What we find is that the death penalty is supported here, which is absolutely barbaric. My Dad shared this in a fairly impassioned way. There was a pause after he said it. Not one person said “I agree” which I found fascinating. I don’t know if they were taken aback by how impassioned he was, or not wanting to venture into sharing their own opinion on something controversial in a group of people they didn’t know. Obviously that wasn’t an issue for my Dad, anyway :-). I talked with my Dad about this on the way home and we laughed about, maybe my Dad ‘broke’ the meeting and next time there would be a ‘don’t bring your parents’ rule. We were kidding because people were very friendly to him after the meeting. It was just funny how no-one responded to his comments.
After my Dad said that and the pause happened I mentioned something which struck me, my Dad and my husband as something rather American (and I found annoying) on Saturday. At the high school district music festival the band director was introducing a choral piece arranged for band and he said “We do support separation of church and state, but as choirs know, some of the best choral music is church-related”. I didn’t mind him saying that but I did mind that as soon as he had, many audience members responded instantaneously with loud enthusiastic clapping. I might be wrong but I think this was a response of Christians who felt compelled to clap anything said that favored their belief system. All I could think was “Did they have to do that?”
I liked the response to that which was - those audience members missed the point that if something is beautiful, it’s beautiful even if it was created as a piece of propaganda.
Then someone (Sarah) did comment about how people in church often don’t think - which probably was a response to what my Dad said stated in general terms.
At one point there was a bit of discussion about how to respond to questions incorporating words whose meaning varies. Someone said something along these lines about their current belief/doctrinal stance: “About all I can say is “I’m intrigued by the life of Jesus”. Which some people aren’t satisfied with”. I thought that was interesting since it’s very close to my position - except I would probably say “I’m intrigued by the life of Jesus whether the stories about him are true or not” because otherwise that statement tends to imply some sort of belief that the stories are true. Which I don’t currently have.
My Dad thought it was a little odd the meeting ended with a shared recitation of the Lord’s prayer (by people who wanted to) - this evidently is an up/rooted tradition. Given that four of the twelve people at this particular meeting had said they were agnostic/atheist I also felt maybe it didn’t quite ‘fit’ to do that as much as it would at some up/rooted meetings. Although it didn’t offend me since my expectation is that most people who attend up/rooted meetings are followers of Jesus. Like I said, I was surprised to find two other atheist/agnostic people at this meeting as well as me and my Dad.
It seemed like a successful meeting. Rebecca is a wonderful facilitator - friendly and enthusiastic and very much wanting to ‘facilitate’ rather than ‘control’. I appreciate her willingness to commit to making the city up/rooted group possible. It’s early days for this group - I hope there’s enough interest that it becomes established as a resource and safe place for city people who are ‘intrigued by the life of Jesus’ or find they have a lot in common with those who are.
Comment by: Sarah-Ji
1Hi, Helen–
It was so nice to meet you and your father yesterday. I wanted to tell you that I was really happy that your father came, and I wholeheartedly agreed with what he said about the death penalty and how it clashes horribly w/ the message of Jesus. I didn’t say anything at the meeting, because I just naively assumed everyone who was part of the emerging church conversation agreed on this, and your dad put it so eloquently and passionately.
I was also pleasantly surprised at the number of agnostics/atheists at the gathering. I told my husband when I got home that he should have come too (he’s agnostic). I think it says a lot about the emerging/emergent conversation when atheists and agnostics feel welcomed, whereas in many other “Christian” settings they would have to worry about being burned at the stake.
I hope you have a chance to check out the emerging parents blog. I can tell you have a lot of experience to share with newish parents like myself, and you write with an intelligence and warmth that I’m sure would be much appreciated by folks over there.
I hope to see you around Chicagoland soon. Please say hello to your dad for me!
P.S. I thought it was really cool to get an email bulletin from Brian McLaren this morning sharing comments on his book from his “almost-an-atheist friend Helen Mildenhall!” So I didn’t have to dig up the link you wrote down for me to your blog, as Brian conveniently linked to it in his email.
Comment by: Lainie Petersen
2Helen:
It was great seeing you and meeting your dad last night. Like Sarah mentioned, I think that most of us just didn’t see any reason to respond to your father’s opposition to the death penalty, because (my guess is)most of us oppose it (albeit possibly for different reasons). Also, I observed that you were really the only person who spent much time asking people about their stories. It seemed like there wasn’t a lot of interaction going on, but rather just individual sharing. So perhaps that is also why there was no real interaction with your father’s comments.
In any case, it was a very nice evening that I enjoyed greatly. I look forward to meeting with everyone there again, either at future meetings, or individually.
Comment by: Helen
3Hi Sarah, thank you so much for your comments - I will show my Dad. We were thinking it’s likely most people at the meeting were against the death penalty even though they didn’t actually say so.
I really enjoyed meeting you; I loved your sweet spirit and how you seem to have navigated through a difficult upbringing and early adulthood with grace - and been able to let go of anger and move forward in a positive way. I will stop by emerging parents when I have time. I don’t actually think of myself as a great parent so I hope you won’t place high hopes on me contributing a lot of wisdom there :)
Someone forwarded Brian’s newsletter to me - I was amazed he included me in there by name! He mentioned me as ‘an atheist’ in the last newsletter - which I also found out about because someone forwarded it. I would have never thought he’d mention me again in another one!
Anyway I’ve subscribed now, not particularly because of that (I think I’ve had more than my fair share of mentions already) but mostly because I’m interested in what he’ll be doing in my village when the Deep Shift tour comes here in April.
Comment by: Helen
4Hi Lainie, I’m glad you made it!
Thanks for your perspective about the lack of response to my Dad. My Dad wasn’t upset, just intrigued.
If there was anything offputting to him, it was the Lord’s Prayer at the end. I suppose if there’s going to be a continued atheist/agnostic presence at the meetings (which I think is neat but I don’t know what up/rooted’s goals are), I would suggest either not saying it or being very intentional about respectfully asking atheist/agnostics specifically if they mind the Jesus followers saying it - I’m not saying there was disrespect but it’s a bit alienating when something suddenly happens which excludes you.
My Dad was a bit surprised about people at the group liking the Lord’s Prayer - I was saying to him, it’s because these are mostly people who have come out of quite anti-liturgical churches and so they tend to like returning to historic traditions and rituals and liturgy. (I.e. they haven’t had bad experiences with liturgy and rituals that have put them off it)
My and my Dad’s experience is more of being put off by liturgical recited prayer because those who said it didn’t mean it - if you mean it why not use your own words?
Although, I made peace with liturgy and the issue for me now is not that I object to it per se but that I don’t pray so it excludes me. I don’t mind other people praying. But I can’t join in.
Comment by: Lainie Petersen
5Helen:
The Lord’s Prayer thing:
I don’t know if you are aware, but the Lord’s Prayer is traditionally said at Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, even though AA is not officially Christian. I am not sure what Up/Rooted’s purpose in saying it is, but I thought it was an interesting parallel.
Comment by: Headspace @ www.lainiepetersen.com » The Lord's Prayer
6 11/20/07 11:10 AM | Comment Link |[...] An interesting tradition of Up/Rooted is closing the meeting with the Lord’s Prayer. My new friend Helen Mildenhall, who also attended the meeting (along with her dad, who is visiting from Oxford, England), brought up some of her concerns with this practice over on her blog. [...]
Comment by: Helen
7Thanks Lainie - I didn’t know AA meetings close with the Lord’s Prayer.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
8“I’ve heard conservative Christians express concern about how the faith of conservative Christian college students is endangered if they go to liberal institutions. I suppose what I heard last night bears this out. On the other hand I’d say a faith that can’t survive the normal questioning of thoughtful young adults isn’t something that should be held onto anyway.”
I have wondered about this myself. I have also found it interesting that Christians seem unembarrassed by this acknowledgement and openly state it.It is as if what they/we have is so fragile it wont stand up against the reality test. However when one takes in to consideration that much of what we call Christianity has slipped into the religion business( again no embrassment about this on their part) and at the center of every religion are a set of sacred beliefs then having those beliefs tinkered with can be distrubing.
Maybe we need sacred actions or practices - those are harder to tinker with
Yes - AA was founded by people who were decidedly Christian- and the one obvious remnant of that (although there are many hidden ones)is the recitatoin of teh Lords Prayer
Comment by: Molly
9“I’ve heard conservative Christians express concern about how the faith of conservative Christian college students is endangered if they go to liberal institutions. I suppose what I heard last night bears this out. On the other hand I’d say a faith that can’t survive the normal questioning of thoughtful young adults isn’t something that should be held onto anyway.”
Seems like at it’s core, the Christian faith is either something accepted blindly or something that *happens* to a person somewhere down deep, much like Paul’s experience. I know that for me, the transitions of the last couple years and the questions that caused were enough to make me doubt almost everything. What made it impossible to doubt was the One who I “met”…whatever that means…but, hard to explain, made it impossible for me to doubt. I can doubt conservative Christianity (and liberal Christianity) but I can’t doubt…Him. I can’t explain it any better than that, it’s too wordless of a thing.
That said, I agree with what Jim shared above…I’m looking into the Orthodox church right now partly for that very reason…so tired of the “mix-n-match” way we approach things as Protestants.
I LOVE what your Dad said, btw. I think it has everything to do with how we view Jesus in America. I’ve been researching atonement theories lately, having grown up with the penal substitution theory as fact. The idea that all sin must be punished is very much central to the American view of the cross.
I think it’s fair to say that this has everything to do with our zeal for the death penalty, and for our less than compassionate stance in almost every other area too.
Great meeting summary, Helen. As usual, it’s always a pleasure to read your thoughts!
Comment by: Mike Clawson
10The tradition of saying the Lord’s Prayer at up/rooted dates back even before I got involved with it. The reason is usually as an act of unity. Despite any denominational or creedal differences, the Lord’s Prayer is something that all Christians everywhere affirm and recite. It binds us together. (And in my opinion it’s a beautiful summary of the principles of the Kingdom of God.)
However, we’ve never before had to deal with the issue of atheists and agnostics in the group. I think it’s great that you guys feel welcome there. But if the goal of the prayer is unity, I’d hate for it to feel like an act of exclusion for you guys. We’ll have to think about what to do about that. Perhaps it’s as simple as what you suggested - simply asking permission of the non-Christians in the group if it would be okay to do it before just diving in.
Comment by: Helen
11Thanks for your comment Jim. It’s reassuring knowing other people who wonder why Christians aren’t embarrassed about a variety of things.
Molly, thanks for stopping by! I saw on your blog that your experience with the service was good overall. Over time I’ve changed my views a lot about what aspects of faith communities ‘help people be human’. These days I’m very open to the possibility that non-Evangelical Protestant faith communities can do this as well or better than some Evangelical Protestant ones. I have a couple of friends who are much happier in Roman Catholic faith communities than they ever were in Evangelical Protestant ones - they feel that they’ve found their spiritual home now.
Mike, I’m not sure exactly what to suggest - I do think it would be respectful at least acknowledge the presence of atheists/agnostics at that time. If you want to say it then rather than asking for permission it would be better to ask the atheist/agnostics to bear with you while you end with this sign of unity for the Christians present - that anyone who wishes is welcome to say along with you.
Comment by: Rebecca
12Hi Helen,
This is the first chance that I’ve gotten to check out your summary. Thank you for your emails about the gathering, also. I especially appreciated your comments about the Lord’s Prayer that you repeated here. Following another of your pieces of advice to start having even just a basic topic to give people a place to start their stories, do you think discussing what the group thinks about the Lord’s Prayer and/or alternative ways to reinforce unity might be a good place to begin next month’s gathering?
Comment by: Helen
13Hi Rebecca, yes, that sounds like a great topic!