Posted by Helen on: 01.06.2008 /
By Jim Henderson
In 1543 Nicolas Copernicus published his treatise De Revolutionibus Orbium Coelestium (The Revolution of Celestial Spheres) and ushered into popular discourse the phrase “Copernican Revolution.” This Copernican Revolution pitted one powerful paradigm - it’s all about us, against another - it’s all about something outside of us.
When paradigms collide it can make for lots of excitement and provoke tons of resistance from those holding a vested interest in maintaining the status quo… As Tom Friedman the Pulitzer winning journalist once commented “those with power never think about it but those without power think about it all the time”. The unfortunate truth about history (thus far) is that when it comes to powerful paradigm change, the church has often been on the side of the resisters.
Peter Drucker said, “Every few hundred years in Western society there occurs a sharp transformation. Within a few short decades, society rearranges itself… We are currently living through such a transformation.” Apparently, Drucker believed that we’re currently living through a cultural transformation unlike anything that has happened since the 18th Century. That would include the American Revolution, the Civil War, World Wars I and II, the atomic bomb and even the Beatles! What if there’s a Copernican Revolution going on and we don’t “see” it, what if we’re on the wrong side again?
Exploiting Discontinuity
Napoleon made a name for himself by doing two things, (1) He chose to sneak up on his enemies instead fighting them head on and (2) he actually killed people. Prior to this, warfare in Europe was more like a professional sport. Generals were like attorneys. Feudal lords would hire the best Generals to lead their private armies into a battle where no one actually fought very similar to our judicial system where most cases are negotiated rather than litigated. Each General would attempt to gain an advantageous position on his opponent in anticipation that the loser would “sue” for an end to the war/game. No one wanted to waste their resources so once it became clear who would most likely win - they would break out the wine glasses, sit down and negotiate an agreement. By choosing to kill people Napoleon exploited the discontinuity and became the ruler of France (for awhile).
How can we exploit the discontinuity in our world and use it to advance this opportunity to free Jesus from the stranglehold religion has placed on him and once again take him public?
Why Do We Follow Culture
Where did the Jesus movement lose its edge?
How did we get in bed with power?
Where did we learn to follow rather than lead culture?
Where is Jesus in this thing we call Christianity?
How did we get into the religion business anyway?
Where could you take Jesus to church and not feel like you had to explain it to him?
In Transforming Mission, David Bosch writes “Jesus had no intention of founding a new religion”
Somewhere along the line the Jesus Movement got into the religion business.
This is so commonly accepted that I rarely hear it questioned and yet Jesus never said one thing about his movement adopting the world religions business model. What he did do was talk obsessively about advancing his movement (a.k.a. kingdom)
How did it happen that we went into the business of church and religion?
What happened to the Jesus Movement?
How did Jesus the Savior subsume Jesus the Servant?
Why do we Christians typically react to changes in culture rather than lead them?
Free Jesus
Off The Map is the organization I started seven years ago to help take Jesus public again.
Free Jesus!
Sounds arrogant doesn’t it? But if Drucker and Bosch are correct then this is a great time to attempt such a rescue.
In case you didn’t get the memo…Jesus is not part of the public dialog on spirituality - We’ve ceded that ground to the Dali Lama, Wayne Dyer, Tony Robbins and Oprah.
What if Jesus was once again public property?
What if following in the way of Jesus involved more than right beliefs?
What if followers of Jesus led this movement and took the spirituality of serving public?
What if Jesus was seen as the founder of a movement that serves others - instead of one that judges others?
What if the Jesus movement got out of the beliefs business and back into the serving business where it all started?
Free Jesus!
Comment by: Free Jesus - Off the Map | Street to the Seat
1 01/6/08 8:46 PM | Comment Link |[...] friend of mine Jim Henderson just posted this posting, “Free Jesus” on his blog, “Conversation on the Edge“. You can also check Jim out at Off the [...]
Comment by: Pastor Kerry
2Jim, I am always intrigued by your thoughts. I am teaching an online course this semester at Rockbridge Seminary (www.rockbridgeseminary.org) on, “The Theology and Practice of Evangelism”. I know my students will be challenged by your postings. You are as always hitting the nail on the head. Keep it coming.
Comment by: Mike
3Dude - that is the best line I’ve read all day.
Comment by: benjamin ady
4I have a (relatively short) list of such places. Which is to say, definitely less than 0.1 % of the christian churches out there.
I realize I’m a cynic. But on a broad scale, these two strike me as somewhat to altoghether impossible. At least in America. Unless something truly surprising and shocking happens (and things like this *have* occasionally happpened) (not to be a wet blanket or anything).
Comment by: benjamin ady
5BTW–love the photo. I want a photo that goes next to *my* name on OTM blogs =p
Comment by: nancy
6good questions.
i think that it all starts in our own heart, mind and soul…our relationship with God.
as far as the Jesus movement…He is still moving.
Comment by: Ben
7This is an easily solved problem if you actually want to solve it. If Jesus’ ideas have merit, defend them on their merits and drop the whole fixation on Jesus. Voila! You are free of the Christian religious baggage.
Something tells me you’re not interested, though.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
8Benjamin- Helen will get that photo of you up
Also - I have hope that history is presenting us a unique opportunity to rescue Jesus from religion and give him back to the public.
It may be because I am 60 and want it to be true
It may be because I have a destiny complex
Or it might just be true
Kerry - lets team up in 2008
Nancy - I know Jesus is still moving but his movement isn’t always so easy to spot
Comment by: leslie davidson
9I came to salvation/awareness of God in 1971. I was proud to call myself a Jesus Freak. Before I encountered him I had become suicidal from a childhood full of horrors. I had the self esteem of a dung beetle. So I knew Jesus was my everything. Somehow in the last 37 years I got it backward and kept trying to join the church ’status quo’ even though I never fit there, ever!
So, I QUIT! I am not going to be part of the church americanus. I AM going back to being A happy little JESUS FREAK! I will love people and serve them unless they say “stop that”. I just thought maybe you would like to witness my resignation from churchianity and resumption of radical faith. My poor mainstream husband may find me rather trying, but then he always has. Sincerely, Leslieann
Comment by: David Julian
10It all went south when Christianity became a religion and stopped being a lifestyle. You only have to look at what happened to Carlton Pearson to see how Christianity (the religion) has always responded to new ideas or interpretations of Scripture.
To get Christianity (the Way, Truth, and Life) back again will require a dismantling of the whole Christianity as a religion structure, and — as has been demonstrated throughout history — it won’t go down without a fight. Too many people are too heavily invested in the hierarchy, power, and politics to make this happen.
It will take Jesus himself to explain why just saying you believe is no longer sufficient transformation in this 21st Century world.
Comment by: Helen
11Leslieann wrote:
Leslieann, thanks for sharing this with us.
Comment by: karl
12you know it is ugly when the first thing i think of is the old business cliche, “follow the money”
i doubt it will be an american led movement, the money is way too good in evangelical christianity here. we are no longer covertly a business, but it is almost a stated objective.
here was my epiphany: after 20 plus years of professional ministry, mostly larger groups, i noticed the one issue that created the most energy- a budget crisis. not making budget is the greatest call to action i ever witnessed. i do not remeber a sense of panic that children were dying, or people were oppressed. panic is only when the money is low.
why are most churches “targeting” new, suburban developments? hmmm, i bet is because that is where the money is.
oh, there is no good money in serving, in fact it will cost you.
Comment by: Randy
13Leslieann…I thought someone had hijacked my own story when I was reading yours. Same year, same history, same “square peg, round hole” experience with church.
I’m glad you are returning to being a Jesus freak, although I bet you’ll be a lot less obnoxious than you were back then (that is, if you and I really do share the same kind of story!).
As I recall, the “church” was pretty threatened and overwhelmed by us back in the early seventies…they didn’t know what to do with us when we showed up to their stuff (and sat in the sacred first pews). They complained, but not too much because we began to fill their empty halls with joy and energy and worship and…well, Jesus, I think. Then we got sucked into being institutionalized, marketed, organized and sold on tapes and CD’s. We became them, albeit a cooler version.
That’s my view anyway. Thanks for the memory.
Free Jesus!
Comment by: bianca
14ah… a destiny complex… i have one of those too, though never quite framed it like that…
i struggle with this often, because of the inherent “arrogance” in christianity… that because Jesus is “the only way”, then no other path is acceptable… it causes major relational/conversational roadblocks, but i’m not even sure at what other conclusions i can personally arrive based on my current (albeit in flux) world view…
i wonder too about what ben says… “If Jesus’ ideas have merit, defend them on their merits and drop the whole fixation on Jesus. Voila! You are free of the Christian religious baggage.”… because if i love and serve and live a life of otherliness and explain it to others as motivated by my relationship with Jesus and/or His ideals… and someone else chooses to live that way because it’s simply the kindest and most compassionate way to live… which one of us is more admirable? wouldn’t it be the one who’s character is such that that behavior is the fruit? how then can Jesus truly be the recipient of any glory in my life? i know those who either find it “pathetic” that my lifestyle is motivated by spiritual reasons or those who insist that i’m just a good person… frustration with little hope of satisfaction on this point… how could i possibly describe a difference to someone else, if in fact, there is a genuine difference?
i want nothing more than to see the “kingdom of heaven” played out here on earth, driven by the ideals of Jesus… free of the boxy trappings of “church”… free of the superior attitudes… perhaps it doesn’t even matter to Him if He gets the credit, so long as lives are blessed/changed in the process… i just don’t know…
Comment by: Jim Henderson
15Yeah
As former Jesus Freak I celebrate your resignation. I think if we hadnt gotten interrupted by Churchianity many of us would have kept going with our Jesus Freaky ways and who knows what we would have ended up doing
Comment by: Jesus lives here
16 01/7/08 11:25 AM | Comment Link |[...] Jim Henderson [...]
Comment by: Jim Henderson
17Karl - Non Christians watch this pattern and come to the same conclusion. It is so obivous as to be embarassing
Comment by: Jim Henderson
18Bianca
If Matthew 25 is true then I can harldy imagine Jesus caring about “needing” to get credit. When Cs talk about giving God glory it sounds suspiciously like “give MY version of god glory” so I will feel more secure about bet I have placed on my eternal well being and justify all that I have given up in this life
Comment by: Peter Walker
19I think that as long as we’re wearing hip clothes, sporting tattoos, and have cool faux-mohawks, nothing else really needs to change in the church.
Comment by: Lisa W.
20I love Leslie’s terms:
“Churchianity” and “Church Americanus”
brilliant stuff.
Comment by: Randy
21I’d like to offer the alternative, Church Ameri “can us” as well. ;-)
Peter…glad the bar is low for you. Love to see what a cool “faux-mohawk” looks like, though!
Comment by: Jim Henderson
22This is the Peter we miss so much around here
Comment by: Gil T
23It may well be when Christians react to culture it is just the nature of a symbiotic relationship. I have long maintained we Christians are more than just influenced: We are taught by it. We buy the line: Christians aren’t perfect just forgiven. It may sound good. It may seem biblical. We have allowed the world to teach its notion of “perfect” as being sinlessness. The truth is biblical perfection has nothing to do with sinlessness.
Even the dialogue exchange in this thread bears shades of that influence. Because we have seen and heard of instances of disciples who have shipwrecked their faith in a public display we buy the world’s reaction to “religion” as an evil and promptly rush to distance ourselves from “religion” as though it were an unbiblical, evil matter with which no Christian should involve themselves.
Another example, we have accepted, “Christianity”, a word, like so many “-anity”s or “ism”s, coined by the world, to refer to the faith that is in Christ Jesus. We talk about our “lifestyle” rather than our walk in the light. It becomes a “one upmanship” challenge believers engage in to coin the catchiest word or phrase, but in the end, it may sound good, seem biblical, but it’s not the Word.
I understand I am no more to be on the cutting edge of culture change anymore than I am to defend Jesus or the merits of Jesus’ words. My Father did not give me his Holy Spirit to defend Jesus. He has sent me to proclaim him and thereby make known the kingdom of God, MY “culture”, in a world falling over itself to latch on to the newest culture fad. This is neither reacting to culture nor leading it. It is preaching without being ashamed, the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
24What is “The Word” then?
It sounds like you have found a way to determine the correct way to use that phrase.
I have observed that when those phrases are used it is a way of announcing “this conversation is over because it isn’t the Word”
Comment by: Gil T
25Jim, perhaps I left room for some misunderstanding. What I meant that “it’s not the Word” I meant the Word of God, not something like a politcally correct word or phrase. A word or phrase may well communicate the intended use, but I am saying is that often resorting to such stems from a witting or unwitting decision to coin a phrase rather than rely on the Word. This is not to say we must never use non-biblical words or phrases (we are in, though not of, the world), but it’s when it characterizes us as Christians that it should give cause for pause. catchy rhyme there :-)
Comment by: Helen
26Gil wrote:
Gil, to me this also doesn’t sound like ‘engaging the culture’ which seems to be what Jesus did. It sounds like imposing Christian culture on other people. And one of Jim’s main points (as best I understand) is, Christian culture can really get in the way of people seeing that Jesus came to serve others, not to be served.
It can make people think Jesus is ‘against’ them much more than the gospels indicate he is. It can make them think Jesus is someone who has an angry look on his face as he parades around holding anti-gay or anti-abortion placards. For many people who aren’t Christians, that’s the last person they want to get to know better. That person does not come across as “I care about you and I’m here to serve you - tell me how can I help?” Or as someone who wouldn’t ‘break a bruised reed or snuff out a smoldering candle wick’ (one Bible description of Jesus).
I thought Christians were here to show people what Jesus is like by being like Jesus, by serving others.
How many more people who aren’t Christians would think more positively about Jesus if that was their experience of Christians?
Comment by: leslie davidson
27Randy, Helen, Jim:
Thanks for words of encouragement.
As I read what you all say I feel caught in a storm of words. Its frustrating sometimes to read your words and wonder if I really get the sense of what you mean. Sometimes the words themselves seem more like walls than bridges.
My mind seems to run on about bridges and walls these days. I go onto a Q and A forum for “religion and spirituality”. We get thoughts from all corners of the cyberspace of the spirit. Some are so far out into atheism/spiritism, even insanity that it breaks my heart. I want to reach them with divine power, not just ideas.
Because of Jesus I want desperately to build bridges and not walls. I don’t give a flip about actual church buildings or programs; I want the Jesus Way, on the hoof, wherever the day takes me. My authentic experiences in the Spirit of Jesus have all come in one-on-one talks over coffee or in Wal Mart. I have always tithed 10% of all I have; its no hardship to give for the kingdom. And, I love the believers who attend my church, but I don’t love “church”. Sit down. Stand up.Shake hands Sing a song. Take notes. Pray a prayer, etc. (just follow the Spirit through your bulletin)!
In the beginning of my walk we did things like baptize someone in a shower because we had no pool. The jerkiest guy I worked with at a “denomination retreat center” finaly quit resisting the Spirit of Jesus and insisted on kneeling in surrender in the middle of a donut shop parking lot. He seemed to change almost over night into a passionate believer. We had no finesse and we just walked with God and let our mouths drop open in amazement to see what He did.
Is it asking too much to go back to that? Can I bail on complexity and opt for simplicity in my faith - keeping only a few bits of wisdom/grace/mercy garnered on the way? Can I lose the trappings and let the fire burn in me again?
Comment by: Helen
28Leslieann wrote
Leslieann, the only thing that could stop you doing these things is fear. And the Bible says ‘perfect love casts out fear’. So…you don’t need to be afraid to do what you believe is right in your heart. I think that’s what Jesus would want you to do, don’t you?
Comment by: benjamin ady
29Leslieann wrote
Well said. Thank you.
Comment by: benjamin ady
30Randy,
see faux mohawks here
=)
Comment by: Peter Walker
31Yeah, that’s it Benjamin. Or you can hang out with Relevant Magazine groupies. *Oops*
Sorry. I learned the hard way.
Comment by: leslie davidson
32Helen, It isn’t fear stopping me; I am stretching out to people on line in a way that is good and genuine.
I’m speaking more of having been a believer for 37 years and slowly realizing that I have grown accepting of “churchiness” for so long that I wonder where my wonder went! Where is the freshness, even if it is raw or unschooled? Where can I be my Jesus Freak self besides wal mart right now? {I am physically unable to work outside my home for now-which limits my chances for interaction with real folks, instead of cyberfolks}
Jesus has done a work in me that has taken 85% of the fear out of me, that came there through abuse as a kid. So, I’m not sure what else needs to change in me. But, I know my Jesus and He always has something up His sleeve. I just need to keep my oil lamp burning and my tennies on.
Comment by: leslie davidson
33Jim’s first question was:
Comment by: Helen
34Leslieann, sorry if I misconstrued what you’re dealing with.
Comment by: Helen
35Benjamin, thanks for the faux mohawks link - that was very helpful!
Comment by: leslie davidson
36Helen, I had a point for why I quoted Jim’s first question and my point disappeared. Did I make a mistake or do you sometimes edit what we say for pertinence….I don’t mean to overstay my welcome here, but you guys got my brain cells firing and now its hard to shut them back off. =) Oh well, if it was important it would have made it on. I just gave a brief chronology of major experiences that lead to my numbed out Christian life. Too many organizations, not enough Spirit. sigh…
Comment by: Helen
37Leslieann, we don’t edit except if there is something offensive in a comment (which very rarely has happened). I’m sorry, some weird computer thing must have happened to the rest of your comment since it never showed up.
Please feel free to rewrite it if you like. It sounds like it was an interesting comment. You certainly haven’t overstayed your welcome.
Comment by: leslie davidson
38Thanks again Helen, My comment about Jim’s first question about “Where did the Jesus Movement Lose its Edge?” was about how I lost my edge (from fire to fizzle)
l. Amazing black to white salvation from living death. Led to Jesus by “charismatics”. Wonderful joy and freedom. “Happy Little Jesus Freak”
2. Brief stint at local Bible College where I discovered legalism and learned to hate evangelism thanks to “cold turkey/door to door visitation/bug folks about Jesus.”
3. Minister who lead me to Christ asked me at 6 months as a believer, to move into ministry house and be full-time worker. When I declined I was rejected by him until I had to leave.
4. Back to regular college. Discovered Baptist Student Union where I took Old/New Testament survey courses which were wonderful. Came under tutelage of Director who did his best to instill the Navigator/Discipleship vision/paradigm in me. Over a few years I tried hard, failed fully to become a disciple-maker - due mostly to my need for emotional healing for my past (which wasn’t done back then or even understood). My failures lead to my being gently edged out of yet another bracket of believers.
5. Met/married my spouse. Became a Baptist (sort of). Had two kids. Had problems. Became an addict to pain pills. Sought counseling over the years and finally found a place of genuine healing. Also lost the addiction to pills.
It is not that I regret my experiences or failures - I learned a lot of what being a Jesus person IS NOT. 37 years in and I still love Jesus with every fiber of my being. I still want so much to give Him away to all the hurting folks I meet.
BUT…I hate to go to church.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
39Leslie
Thanks for your story - very touching
Comment by: Beth
40Powerful, powerful paradigm shift post.
Comment by: Gil T
41Gil, to me this also doesn’t sound like ‘engaging the culture’ which seems to be what Jesus did. It sounds like imposing Christian culture on other people. And one of Jim’s main points (as best I understand) is, Christian culture can really get in the way of people seeing that Jesus came to serve others, not to be served.
Helen, you stated your comment quite well. Very nice. I hope I do not misunderstand or misconstrue your words anymore than was ever my intention with Jim’s OP.
Helen, I apologize for this late reply. (I’m not totally proficient on use of comment links on this site, yet.) I agree this does not sound like “engaging the culture”. I will defer comment on how, when and why Jesus engaged culture other than to say Jesus did engage culture. I do not have a problem with us engaging culture, because, like I said, “we are in the world, not of the world”. However, feeling our place ought be on the leading edge of culture, I believe, is a purpose amiss.
What I state you say, “sounds like imposing Christian culture”, when I merely stated, “He has sent me to proclaim him and thereby make known the kingdom of God”. That proclamation of the kingdom of God, in word and in deed, is what I, as a Christian, claimed as, “MY culture”. Also, I stated, I am to preach, not defend Jesus.
He has no need for me to defend him.
I have often said all Christians are bilingual. We all know worldspeak quite well. Since we came into the kingdom we have learned kingdomspeak. I use both when I depending on the person with whom I am engaged in conversation. It is they who detect our worldspeak “accent”, because although we speak it well there is a noticeable absence of certain crude and crass words we do not use to communicate our message to them. I much prefer to create dialog than to launch away. For instance, to the question, “Are you a Christian” I prefer to ask, “What have seen or heard in me or about me that prompts the question?” The reaction is sometimes one of momentary alarm that I have taken offense at their question. I much prefer how dialog opens up than had I answer a terse, “Yes!” to their question.
Personally, I neither want nor have any part of parades and placards as a way to “preach Jesus”
Comment by: Jim Henderson
42Gil T
Nicely explained
Thank you
Comment by: Jim Henderson
43I still think Jesus had no intention of his movement becoming indentified as one of the “World Religions” Let alone the leading world religion (in terms of sheer gross numbers)
I mean does anyone think Jesus would be into something like this?
For what purpose?
Where do you find this in his words (or The Word)?
Comment by: Keith
44Jim,
Thank you for saying this. I think you put into words something I’ve been unable to. Thank you.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
45You’re welcome. I’m surprised it has created so much resonance.
Comment by: bianca
46how could he be?
i mean, someone who with his last words begged his father in heaven to forgive those killing him could never be in favor of an establishment that offers forgiveness only to the select…
someone who lived to serve the helpless and scold the abusers of power doesn’t seem a likely candidate to join a “ministry” team of people scalping money from the hopeful poor while giving large sums to political causes that seek to impose “righteousness”…
someone who taught to worship and serve God with every breath and action, by loving the least… could he be at home in a grand cathedral with fallen humans forcefully preaching absolute truth from lofty pedestals to “worshippers” who faithfully attend “at least” once a week?
really, how coud he be?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
47Just to be clear (to Bianca and anyone else who might be wondering)
I am not talking about the Church (which certainly is an agent of religion among other (and sometimes better things) )
I am talking about religion. When I say religion I am not talking about what the Greek meaning of the word might be but rather what everyday people think it means.
I’m talking about the organized attempt to describe, control and distribute god/God. These organizations are typically led by men who live off of the proceeds of the institution.
It substitutes serving with rituals and beliefs. The invisible (and thus impossible to prove or critique) world is often used to hold people hostage and can even make them kill in the name of god.
Jesus came to bring heaven to earth. He did talk about “going” to heaven but that doesn’t mean it is “out there”.
Jesus came to live a life that tells regular (and often powerless) people that he LIKES them.
Jesus hid himself in humanity. He didnt wear Robes and Hats that would draw attention to himself.
The things that inadvertantly drew peoples attention to him were his acts of service and kindness.
I just cannot see the connection between his movement (aka The Kingdom of God) and the organized instituion called religion - be it Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism or Scientology
Comment by: leslie davidson
48The only people Jesus ever raised His voice to and spoke scathingly to were the power brokers of the Jewish faith - the Pharisees and Saducees and rulers of the temple. He was vehemently opposed to people using other’s spiritual/physical neediness to line the church’s coffers with money. The leaders accepted the people’s respect money and gave them rules and burdens, not help.
Jesus quoted Old Testament prophets who called the religious leaders “false shepherds”. He spoke of shepherds who ate the sheep instead of tending them. He spoke of them tying heavy burdens on men’s backs and not lifting a finger to help them.
Jesus spent His time teaching people about the Kingdom of God, about His Father, about how to live with others. He spent no time telling them how to market His message. His words taught them Individual responses to God and to their neighbors. His talks on taking up the cross and dying to self certainly didn’t fit into any paradigm for any religious order of the day. He wanted people to relate to Almighty God as a Father.
Comment by: Joe Silmon
49Hi Jim et al.
Greetings from a chilly United Kingdom
The big topic over here right now is the possible abolition of our blasphemy law. Wikipedia contains some easily accessible data.
It seems that this ancient law is cited most commonly against artistic expression in some form or other, a recent case being the show ‘Jerry Springer the Opera’. I would be happy to see the law go simply because I don’t believe such laws in our current context serve any purpose greater than to ‘red-herring’ Christians into pointless campaigns over non-issues like “Harry Potter” or the “Golden Compass”.
Such campaigns, in my view, serve only to cloud the vision of those seeking the Kingdom of God.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
50Joe
Always interesting to hear what kinds of things are going on in the UK
Comment by: Helen
51Joe, thanks for stopping by. I’m glad to see George Carey recommended the blasphemy law be dropped. As you say it doesn’t make sense in the current context. (Actually I’m not sure it ever did - you can’t ‘force’ people to share your beliefs by punishing them if they say something against your beliefs)
Comment by: joe (another one)
52I think the thing is that times have changed. We used to be very concerned about stopping things which were ‘offensive’.
But in a multi-cultural society, we can’t go around being offended all the time, as we’d never get anything done. And in fact, ’someone is being offended’ is a very bad way to make law.
Unfortunately, church operates as a form of institutional inertia. Amongst other things, this means that many people in church still think that law should be like this, and attempt to harp back to the glory days, which I don’t believe ever existed.
We just have to get over this. We’re going to be offended. Live with it.
Comment by: Beth
53I am blown away by the impact of this article. It plants in my mind an idea of creating an international organization a la BSF that meets once a week, every week, all over the world and Does Stuff together in the name of Jesus.
We could call it DSF - Do Stuff Fellowship. Imagine: every Wednesday, for two hours, hundreds of people in every city serving others in an organized effort.
Comment by: Helen
54DSF - I love it! Great idea, Beth!
Comment by: Jim Henderson
55Beth
This is exactly what we are envisoining for our Otherlyness Project. Essentially remake church and copy the AA and Habitat Model.
Just like AA and Habitat encourage core practices(not beliefs) Otherlyness would operate around the core practices of - noticing - praying and listening.
Out of these simple practices would come profound stories of serving others. We would treat these are spiritual practices regardless of what the practitioner believes or doesnt believe.
We would be open about “blaming Jesus” for giving us this idea (formerly known as giving him all the glory) - Meaning we would neither hide nor preach our loyalty - we would live it and invite others to practice Otherlyness - the spirituality of serving
Comment by: Beth
56Heavy.
Comment by: Beth
57Come to think of it, I’d have to call it the Mrs. Thelma VanSickle approach. My Junior Church teacher taught us wee Christian folk to love others in this very way. (When she wasn’t teaching us the books of the Bible and telling Bible stories on the flannelgraph)
Comment by: joe
58I’m with you Jim and Beth.
Comment by: Random Acts of Linkage #44 : Subversive Influence
59 01/19/08 8:46 AM | Comment Link |[...] could you take Jesus to church and not feel like you had to explain it to him?” — Jim Henderson (good article, with the “line of the day” according to Mike Todd) The intuitive mind is [...]
Comment by: Scott Roberts
60Jim said-
and again
I think I understand, in part, what you mean but I want to be sure. Its sounds as if belief is not relevant so long as someone “works” or is it that “perhaps” beleif will come as someone is in the “way” of Jesus?
I do understand that the church uses belief as a label and then makes carnal judgements when they view the “label” as being wrong, but this is human error and doesn’t speak to the need for proper belief. “without faith it is impossible to please God” without belief there can be no faith, nothing to act upon.
Maybe someone can clear this up for me…….thanks
scott
Comment by: Jim Henderson
61Scott
My idea is certainly non traditional and may not ever see the light of day but what I envision looks more like a pathyway to belief. Rather than starting with beliefs (which I would suggest have become central (you say carnal) to the church and in fact all religions. We would invite people to start with the supposed best purposes of beliefs or the fruit of beliefs - For some of us that would include small acts of serving others which we call Otherlyness.We see this as central to the message of Jesus and what he meant when he taught us to pray for the Kingdom to come to earth as it is in heaven. We think that if people got involved in the activities of Jesus (what we call Followers of the Way of Jesus - then many of them would become believers in him. The difference in our approach is that we don’t “require” people to believe before - during or even after they participate with us. That seems to be the sticking point for Evangelicals for whom verbal affirmation that they have accepted Jesus as their personal savior(thus insuring a hell-free eternity)is more important than whether or not they serve others in the way of Jesus- We think of that as sin.
Comment by: scott roberts
62Ok, a few more questions then. (I am not arguing for its own sake, as many do, It is for understanding) A pathway to belief is a given, no one believes without a process. I am wondering if you think that serving is better then many other events which could be substituted? Of course I mean for the unbeliever, for the Christian service is utmost, presuming that it is of faith. For the unbeliever it is just another event, unimpressive to God, without faith, dead works.
I like very much what you say about embracing people before they believe, that is the Jesus way,(friend of sinners) and as you said not the evangelical way, to their shame. I have been screaming at the evangelicals for about 15 years now, too little fruit.
So, would you agree with this?That a life of service without faith does not lead to God.
thanks for the repy
scott
Comment by: Helen
63Scott wrote:
Scott, thanks for your comments here.
I don’t think it’s possible to embrace people before they believe if you believe this about them:
It comes across as offensively elitist to people who aren’t Christians when you are convinced your service counts to God and theirs doesn’t. Why would they want to be embraced by someone with such offensively elitist views?
Comment by: scott roberts
64Hi Hellen,
I’m a little confused, what do you think that I believe about the evangelicals? Let me tell ya, I think much worse then anything you could have gleaned from my words above. In any case, you are wrong to say that I or anyone else couldn’t receive people if there was baggage involed ie. bad fellings, misconceptions possibly even hate. To embrace is an act, could be a forced act, overcoming your own shortcommings and “doing” in obedience to Jesus despite your natural inclination to do otherwise. Of course it would be better to receive someone in perfect love……..but who can do that?
If what you say about the unbelievers perception is true, in some cases I am sure it is, then they have percieved wrongly. Elitism is an attitude which I don’t have. They might be offended, but that is the very nature of the truth found in the gospel. People need to be taught. Do you think that what I said is true? If it is true, then “speak the truth in love” We can never control the perception of others, in fact it is wrong of them to jump to those conclusions, although they will jump.
scott
Comment by: Helen
65Hi Scott, I’m not saying you’re an elitist person - I’m saying the teaching is.
No matter how much you aim to show love, if you are at the same convinced your service counts to God and theirs doesn’t, that’s an elitist belief and teaching.
Comment by: scott roberts
66Hi Helen,
Well, if you want to persist with the label, thats ok, what you need to do is decide whether or not the teaching is correct. Are you, as a Christian going to recieve anything from God that some other person who is not a Chriatian wont’t recieve, simply because they are not? The answer is obviously yes, so the teaching, or more correctly, God, is an elitist, which I don’t have a problem with.
Is that the way you view it?
scott
Comment by: Jim Henderson
67I agree with Helen
Comment by: Helen
68Scott wrote:
I do.
I don’t expect we’re going to come to agreement, Scott.
Comment by: scott roberts
69guys,
Then help me understand. I am simply trying to understand what it is that you believe. I have been getting email from Off the Map for many months, and I like much of what I read, now I want to know more….anything wrong with that? Why do you want to end a conversation with me simply because I ask some questions? I Have spent many, perhaps thousands, hours communicating online and I know how easy it is to draw wrong conclussions about individuals posts, we can’t hear the voice inflections, facial querks and the like, so take me at my word…….I am not out to provoke or cause any sort of problems……..I want to know…!
scott
Comment by: Helen
70Scott, I didn’t mean ‘this conversation is over’ - I just meant, I don’t think you and I are going to reach agreement on various points. Like whether it’s a problem if God is elitist. We clearly both have strong opinions about that.
Off The Map is practice-based not belief-based. We’d like to see people engaged in practices which more closely resemble following Jesus (i.e. serving others). That’s our focus.
Comment by: Keith
71Scott,
What is it you believe the Christian receives from God for their service that the non-Christian does not?
Food for thought my be the parable of the two brothers asked to serve in their Father’s vineyard. One says, “I will,” but fails to go and serve. One says, “I will not,” but goes and serves. Which one did the will of his father?
Scott, I believe that you are in this conversation to learn and not to argue. I believe you that you are confused and you want to know more. Let me give my two cents of where the confusion between you and off-the-map might lie. You said …
Jim and Helen, please feel free to officially correct me if I’m off a bit, but Scott, I think off-the-map does not accept this same assumption that many - including yourself - do. The point is not to love/serve others out of obedience to Jesus and in spite of our underlying dislike of them. The point is to join with Jesus in liking each person and therefore seeking common ground. It is not a begrudging or “forced” embrace, it is trying to be in tune with the Spirit of Jesus that we actually want the same things. It’s not intellectually supporting aid for the poor because Jesus said it was important … it’s actually serving the poor because they matter to Jesus and they matter to us.
The difference is in the goal … no longer is the goal like tolerating the in-laws because I love my wife, it’s loving the in-laws because they are my family, and I am theirs.
Off-the-map is about loving and serving your spiritual in-laws as your own family.
Hope that helps a little. Thanks for sticking with the conversation Scott. Jim & Helen, thanks for what you guys do. Keep it up.
Comment by: Helen
72Thanks Keith.
I appreciate how respectful you are in dialog with people who aren’t Christians.
Comment by: scott roberts
73Hey Keith,
Thanks for writing. Let me go back to what I originally said regarding Gods view on the same act from a Christian and a non Chrisitan, which Helen declared an elitist teaching. Paul said that anything which does not come from faith is sin, non Christians do not act in faith, by definition, therefore whether serving the poor or giving money it is not ’storing up treasure in heaven’ it is not fruit of the spirit, it is dead works. Remember, I am speaking only of Gods view, the poor who recieve service are benefited equally whether its a christian or not. Your question here was, what do we get from God that non christians don’t, the answer is everything, starting with eternal fellowship with God to his presence here on earth and hudreds of promises in between.
What is the assumption that I have excepted?
I didn’t mean to say that all of our embracing is forced, etc. only that we are to love even if it has to be forced. God would have us love our enemy, we do that because of our love for God and out of obedience, not because we like our enemy, if we liked him he would be a friend. Most of what you said I am in total agreement.
Thanks again Keith, it helps a little. I get it, you guys are about loving and serving, thats great, but thats not all. Jesus did not say go into all the world and feed the starving, we are to make disciples. Jesus gave gifts to the church, apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher, most of these have to do with telling the story of Jesus. Belief, or more accurately, faith, is more vital then you guys are letting on, at least in the responses so far.
see ya……..scott
Comment by: Helen
74Scott wrote:
You assumed certainty that the particular reduction of the whole Bible into the systematic theology you hold to is ‘God’s view’ even though self-professed Christians have been arguing since the beginning of the church over how to interpret the Bible.
Exactly. What does the word ‘disciple’ mean? It’s a transliterated Greek word - what does it mean in English?
How do you know if someone is a disciple? How do you make one?
You are saying faith is vital - but anyone can say “I believe” - words are cheap. (James wrote, even the demons believe there is one God) Is everyone who says “I believe” a disciple?
We’d like to see people who say “I believe” distinguishable by the way they live and living in ways people who aren’t Christians appreciate as making the world a better place (instead of people who aren’t Christians being irritated by them).
We see a heavy emphasis on practice in Jesus’ words. Do you see something different when you read the gospels?
Anyway thanks for affirming that loving and serving are important. That’s something we do agree on.
Comment by: scott roberts
75Helen,
yes, yes, yes…this is much better. Isn’t this fun?
The assumption yoiu mention here may or may not be the one that Keith is refering too, we’ll see. However, of course I make judgements and interpret the world thru my brain, the way I have come to understand things, ALL people do. There is a saying “make the plain things the main things” When God says of himself “I am love” there is little wiggle room for interpretatioin. Even in longer passages the “plain ” themes stick out easily. And sometimes even in categories of theology which require much reading and multiople texts, the “plain” things rise to the top, easily noticed, but only after the study has been done. Anyway, my comment above was referencing a plain thing “anything done not of faith is sin” that is Gods view. Do you see it some other way? Even for the Chrstian this is true. Lets say a Christian gives money to his church so he will be noticed, and praised. He has given for the wrong reason, “not of faith” and he has sinned, his giving is a dead work.
I’m going to comment on the rest of this in another post.
scott
Comment by: Helen
76Scott wrote:
Yes, absolutely - again we agree. (Jesus said this too in the sermon on the mount didn’t he - as I recall)
I would say the motive is wrong because the Christian did it for him/herself.
I divide motives into “I’m doing this for me” and “I’m doing this for someone else” (there is overlap - it’s not as clean as that in reality).
I see this distinction between motives in people who aren’t Christians as well as people who are.
Some are very self-focused; some are not.
Comment by: scott roberts
77Helen,
Disciple is a student, learner, a follower.
Many times you wont, and other times pretty easy to see the evidence in their life, serving would be a big part of that. You make a disciple by teaching and example, much like raising kids.
God said faith is vital. You receive grace by faith, not by serving, grace is the difference heaven and hell, not works ie. service. Yes anyone can say I believe, it is not our buisness to judge the confession of someone, God will do that. We can teach and lead, only God can plant that seed of life.
Its like an apple tree, they will go for a number of years and bear any apples, they need to mature. Now someone could stick fake apples on it, paint apples or even graft in apple seeds, but it is never real fruit. Apple trees will eventually grow some apples. What comes first, the tree or the apple? Its obvious. What comes first faith or service? Isn’t it obvious. You cannot make a christian by works of service. You probably agree with that but no one as of yet will answer that simple question. Are you saved by faith or by works? If by faith, then one needs to be taught, come to belief, which leads to faith. We will always be surrounded by people who say they believe and don’t……so what, that does not deminish in any way they need for real belief.
I couldn’t have said it better myself. That is what I was refering to when I said earlier that I have been screaming at them for 15 years, then I was mildly rebuked by you.
No way! Apple trees bear apples. But I refuse to judge, just maybe that apple is coming.
scott
Comment by: Helen
78Thanks Scott.
I know it’s sometimes hard to interpret ‘tone’ online. I was trying to share with you the perspective of people who aren’t Christians. Not to rebuke you per se.
Comment by: Keith
79Scott,
Thanks for the responses. I trust that you will agree that when Paul said in Romans 14:23 that anything that does not come from faith is sin, that he was advising Christians on how to make decisions when the “right” choice is not clear - i.e. eating meat dedicated to idols. To bring this passage forward to apply to non-believers serving the poor requires some hermenuetical explanation beyond - Paul said this, so God’s point of view is that.
When you say, “dead works,” it implies a valuelessness that doesn’t match up with passages like Matthew 25. Please help me understand that.
You are correct to say that belief is important, however, we do not have to place it first chronologically to be able to serve together. I have personally found conversations about belief that arise while serving with someone to be healthier - on the whole - than conversations about belief sitting on a couch drinking tea. When serving together, the tangible consequences of the gospel are more obvious and less theoretical. Serving with someone is a good way to start, and often conversations about belief come later. What I say next is an important addition to this though, … service is not a sneaky gateway to important conversation … service itself is as important as belief, and has tremendous value whether paired with belief or standing alone.
The assumption that I was referring to, is the assumption that God does not call us to make friends of our enemies. His call is not simply to TREAT our enemies as friends, but that we actually make friends of our enemies. A man comes to arrest Jesus, and He heals his ear. Guys like Matthew & Zaccheus are trying to take advantage of Jesus’ countryment, and Jesus joins them for dinner.
Please explain to me how you love someone you don’t like … and do so without the kind of hairsplitting that robs one of the two words of their definition.
When you say that if we liked him he would be a friend, I think you are making Jesus’ point exactly.
One last question: What is God’s view on someone who serves others out of a desire to implement the teachings of Jesus and to follow his example, all the while still wrestling with whether the gospels accurately represent the things he said and did, with whether or not he actually rose from the dead, and with whether or not they want to have a personal relationship with him today - whatever that means. What is God’s point of view on that service?
Again, thanks for the responses, Scott
Helen, thanks as always for your kind words.
Comment by: scott roberts
80Keith,
Lots of good stuff to think about in this post. I think you are hugely mistaken if you are proposing that what Paul says in Rom. can only be valid in the immediate context. Do you have any idea how much scripture would be mute to us? Text without context is error. This is correct most of the time, but many things are true on there own, ripped from context. God is love, was spoken within a context, but in any context you chose, that statement is still true. We could site examples all day. The thing is, usually such truths are repeated, as is the case with faith. James says that it is impossible to please God with out faith.
Not in serving together, of course not, but in becoming christian, absolutely. I would like to change the word belief, in my quote above to faith, if that is ok. Faith is the issue. Belief saves on one.
You still have not come right out and stated it, but I am getting the feeling from multiple comments that you believe that your works are needed to get to heaven, or to be a christian, is that statement accurate? I’ll wait to hear from you before I continue, your answer could change the direction of this discussion.
scott
Comment by: Keith
81Scott,
Thanks for the response. You said:
I did not say it was only valid in the immediate context. I said that additional hermeneutical explanation was needed beyond “Paul said.” That’s it.
I believe works are needed to get heaven here, bro. If I need to show a saved-by-grace password to get into the honest conversation club, I can show it. However, the fact that I love Amos and James as much as I love Romans should not alter the direction of our conversation greatly, should it?
True Christian saved by grace password *******
Verify True Christian saved by grace password *******
This is an example of why I feel conversation is more fruitful when we put service first chronologically. Before you’ll really talk you have to check all my beliefs, and it gets old.
In any case, if you have any responses to the other questions in my previous post, that would be appreciated. Thanks for the patient dialogue.
Comment by: scott roberts
82Hey Keith,
another dodge….(not just you Keith) I don’t understand. If you ask me a question, you get an answer, no rhetoric, no BS, an answer.
I din’t ask that question. Heaven here is not an issue. I wnat to know what you (collectively, at off the map) believe about salvation. This is the reason I first posted a few days ago, a dozen posts later you still won’t answer……….why?
Jim hasn’t answered, Helen hasn’t, you haven’t. Anyone else wnat to take a shot?
Again, I do not understand the hesitantness to be fully honest. Do you think that I won’t like you? not true. Hell, I spend hours emailing atheists, obviosly I don’t agree with them.
I’ll be glad to answer all your questions, how bout a little reciprocation?
As far as your password thing, I have no idea what your talking about. Is that something from past discussions? If so, why project it onto me?
Then why are you on the web? Do you think that we might get together in,,,,,,,,,,,,,DC? and feed the hungry? that makes no sense.
scott
Comment by: scott roberts
83guys,
Never mind. I have got my answer by your none response.
1 last question, don’t post just think, how is it that I don’t qualify as one to be served by you?
see ya in eternity
scott
Comment by: Helen
84Scott, what need of yours were you asking us to serve?
Comment by: Keith
85Scott,
I think it may be valuable to know that I’m not officially part of Off-the-Map … so, my words may not fully or accurately represent what off-the-map thinks (if it thinks :-)).
You said:
You attached a lot of unknown consequences to my answer, dude. My answer was not a dodge, but an attempt to change the question.
You have said before:
We both know that it is easy to miscommunicate online … my response was not a dodge, but an attempt to ensure you understand what my true answer is. I believe works are very important, and I believe that I am saved by grace.
Now, you stated in the first quote that my answer would change the direction of this discussion. Since you have assumed my answer to be that works are necessary for salvation, you have said, “See ya in eternity.” So if I answer correctly, we keep talking, and if I don’t, you leave. With that much at stake, you see why I wanted to answer the right question, and not the wrong one.
If you ask me, “Is what we do important?” the answer is without question. If you ask me, “Is _______ necessary for salvation?” I’ll encourage you to take that up with the Lord, though without His grace there would undoubtedly be no salvation.
C.S. Lewis pointed that Christians can unite around the belief that we are saved by Jesus, without having to agree on one single theory of atonement.
And all of this is on a post that began with Jim asking the questions:
Our conversation models how over-emphasis on specific beliefs and judging blunts the ability to focus on service.
I’m here to listen and to understand. This itself is a service, but I also take the lessons I learn here, and the experiences that the folks here share, and turn that into tangible action in my community. So yes, there is reason for me to be on the web.
Scott,
Honestly, I have been trying to serve you. I hope that the future for you is good. And I hope that you will not disregard off-the-map because of me personally … I’m just one guy here. Thanks for the conversation.
A guy I talked with online once said to my friend Helen:
He had a good point.
Comment by: Keith
86Scott,
If you do want to continue the conversation … if you can tell me what you mean when you say “salvation,” then I will honestly answer your question, “I wnat to know what you (collectively, at off the map) believe about salvation,” with the understanding that my answer reflects only on me and not off-the-map. Thanks, bro. I wish you the best.
Comment by: David H
87Full disclosure: I am not affiliated with Off-the-Map other than to come here for discussion. I would call myself a follower of Jesus, but that is open (I’m sure) to debate by some.
The discussion between Scott and others struck a chord with me. I’m not sure Scott intends to come back to continue this but it seemed very important to him that others state whether they believe works are necessary for salvation.
Just to be clear about where I am coming from. I believe they are. But there is no or in my perspective. It isn’t faith or works. It is faith and works.
This is a question I heard often during my upbringing. It was almost a chicken or egg thing. Grace is the chicken; works are the egg (or vice versa, I always forget). And, as we were frequently reminded, every good Christian knows which is more important.
Still there were many hand-wringing sermons trying to work out the conundrum of James. “Faith without works is dead.” What could that possibly mean.
How the heck did that get in with all the other stuff that seems to simply say: Believe the right stuff and you are good to go (through salvation and all the way to heaven)?
At a certain point in my life it occurred to me that this was just one of the many pointless questions some Christians seem to think are important. It isn’t just James. Jesus seems to make it clear that he considers both the chicken and the egg of utmost importance. In fact, if was Jesus who said people would go to hell simply from not treating the least person in the world like they were him in the flesh. In Matthew 25 he said:
So, back to Scott’s question: Are works necessary for salvation? Jesus and James both seemed to believe they were critical. The question of which comes first or which is more important is nonsensical. If you believe you must act like you believe. If you don’t act like it then you probably don’t believe. (Of course if it is just an ‘act’ and not coming from a sense of service to God, that will pretty much invalidate what I — as a Christian — am doing.)
Yes, there is the oft-repeated caution not to judge others. That doesn’t change the truth of what I said above, only the target for examination. Whom should I check to see if they are properly integrating faith and works? Myself. When considering whether a tree is bearing fruit — to borrow another metaphor — there is no need for a window on the orchard, just a mirror in the house.
Most important, the discussion of faith and works is for believers. In Romans 14:23, Paul was pretty clearly speaking to would be Christians. He says they can do anything they want, but if they truly believe they should consider how their acts will affect other believers and themselves.
As for the works of non-believers being sin, I’m not sure where the Bible says that. But even if it does clearly state that the good done by non-Christians is bad or valueless in the eyes of God, I’m not sure why that would be important to me. If I am doing what I am supposed to be doing then I will be a fine example for everyone to consider. I might even be able to get some traction with the making disciples thing. That should be enough for God and men.
If I am not doing — if I am not serving — then who am I to cast any aspersions on someone who is? I think someone with a dying child would much rather have an atheist doctor who is there then someone in a distant land who believes that faith in Christ (alone) will save you.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Scott’s abrupt termination of the conversation is because in his own way he recognized that both sides here were talking at cross purposes. But the mis-understanding is far more fundamental than the question of faith and works. He seemed to believe that Christian-affiliated organizations should be predominantly (if not exclusively) about salvation. I have a feeling that Jim and Off-the-Map don’t share that perspective. Correct me if I am wrong.
Since I am apostate already, I’m going say that I believe that doing good can be good no matter what one believes. However, if I claim as master someone who said: Do good. Then I must either do it or I am a liar.