Bill’s response to my podcast

20 Responses to "Bill’s response to my podcast"

• Comment by: Helen

  1 02/5/08 9:29 AM | Comment Link |

  Thanks for your letter, Bill.

  just having one person who believed in me and didn’t back off when I was down or too up made all the difference.

  I’m so glad you had someone like that in your life.

  should we really expect so much more from [Christians]?

  This is a great point - I realized that was an issue for me. It helped a lot when I noticed I had very high expectations of Christians and stopped making the distinction between them and all other people.

  But I’m not sure I could have done that had I not by then become doubtful that Christians were supernaturally empowered to be better than other people. That teaching was why I had high expectations and it was only in letting go of those that I could let go of the high expectations also.

  That’s how it was for me. Maybe for you and/or others it’s enough to say “they’re still sinners so of course they sin”. That didn’t work for me because I was continually being told about the power of the Holy Spirit in Christians - and how the Holy Spirit wasn’t in those other people, some of whom were being as kind or kinder to me than some Christians.

  Bill I really appreciate you taking the time to write. It seems like your illness is under control (if not you couldn’t have written this letter) - I’m very happy for you that it is. I wish you the best in continuing to deal with it in future and I hope you continue to have wonderful people like Alex in your life.

• Comment by: karen

  2 02/5/08 1:10 PM | Comment Link |

  God says that He didn’t exactly pick the cream of the crop when He went to gather his children together. In fact, one of the reasons God chose His children was that they were some of the worst sinners and most evil people out there. The only thing they had was a sense of how evil they were more than others that were good folk in general. So, we are not dealing with a tremendous group of people here when we are dealing with our brothers and sisters in Christ.

  Interesting thought, Bill. I’ve never heard anyone make this statement before - that Christians start off as worse than other people.

  In my experience, I just don’t think that holds true. If anything, 99% of the conservative evangelicals I fellowshipped with for 30 years were just as moral and immoral as non-Christians. If anything, most who were born into Christian homes came from more stable and traditional backgrounds and ideals than the norm (not that that makes them ‘better’ than others).

  Has this idea you have played out in your experience?

• Comment by: Bill Clark

  3 02/6/08 12:42 AM | Comment Link |

  If I were to edit my post slightly,I would perhaps put my estimation about Christians before they come to Christ a bit differently. I would rephrase my words to say that God didn’t choose those people that we usually think of as particularly outstanding humans in any way to be His children. (And I want to add that God says that He wants all people to be His children in His Word to us). If you think about it, most of the people that God used as examples in the Bible did some pretty dasterdly sins. Moses murdered an Egyptian, Abraham gave his wife away to another man, David sinned with Bathsheba and then killed her husband, Paul murdered many Christians, Peter denied Jesus three times, and the list goes on and on. But, my point is mainly that Chritians certainly are not exemplary in any way prior to coming to Christ, so we have to look at where they started in order to judge how far they have come as being loving people. let me just add one verse in the Bible to what I am saying if I may:
  1 Corinthians 1:27
  New American Standard Bible 1 Corinthians 1:27
  …but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong.

• Comment by: Helen

  4 02/6/08 7:40 AM | Comment Link |

  Thanks for commenting, Bill.

  I understand what you mean but if I need to be around loving people it doesn’t really help to consider ‘how far they’ve come’ - I need them to have arrived enough to love me.

• Comment by: Jim Henderson

  5 02/6/08 11:40 AM | Comment Link |

  Bill

  Thanks for articulating your thoughts so sensitively.

  I am like Paul among the chief of sinners myself

• Comment by: Beth

  6 02/7/08 9:33 AM | Comment Link |

  God says that He didn’t exactly pick the cream of the crop when He went to gather his children together. In fact, one of the reasons God chose His children was that they were some of the worst sinners and most evil people out there.

  This thought struck me. I came from the one of the most fucked up home environments, around lovely, dynamic people swimming in a pool of bi-polar, alcoholic and depressive genes, and I was raised in an evangelical church. My husband, who was raised by good people, can’t seem to feel Jesus (his words), and I’ve often wondered if it’s because he’s so good, and his family was so healthy without centering around Jesus he just can’t see the point. I have devout Christian friends who’ve said of my husband, “He’s more of a Christian man than any of the other Christian men we know.” So. Here I am a Jesus follower, aware of how far down I started, unequally yoked to a really good guy (and the best husband I’ve ever had). Do you know how annoying that can be?!

• Comment by: Helen

  7 02/7/08 9:38 AM | Comment Link |

  Beth wrote:
  

  Here I am a Jesus follower, aware of how far down I started, unequally yoked to a really good guy (and the best husband I’ve ever had). Do you know how annoying that can be?!

  Beth, that used to annoy me too when I was a Christian married to an atheist (we’re still married and he’s still atheist).

• Comment by: Beth

  8 02/7/08 9:44 AM | Comment Link |

  I remember your mentioning something along those lines, Helen.

  And can I just tell you I feel sick to my stomach every time I think of church types pouring vinegar in the wounds of mental illness. I’m so sorry for your pain. You’ve emerged beautifully, I think.

• Comment by: laurie

  9 02/7/08 8:29 PM | Comment Link |

  Oh Helen,
  I just listened to your podcast. Beth pointed me here. I am not only sick but angry. It just shouldn’t be…

  That said, I did get a little more insight into the minds of some Christians by walking with a friend through her bout with mental illness. She was in a bible study group. And, some of the people in the group were great.. just took her strange behavior in stride. But, there were others who were majorly freaked out.. not because of the behavior itself.. but because they did not know what to do. And they did not want to do the wrong thing. They were convinced that they might do something, and her symptoms would escalate… She would be out of control.. and then what?
  No matter how much I tried to encourage them to just roll with it - and get help if needed - they continued to experience extreme fear when around her. Perhaps these were their own mental illnesses?
  Thank you for your vulnerability and cogency. You have blessed me.

• Comment by: Helen

  10 02/8/08 5:29 AM | Comment Link |

  Thanks Beth. It wasn’t fun but I learned some fascinating things through it. And I know that the ‘church types’ were doing what they thought was best. I blame the system as much as them. The system didn’t encourage them to be Jesus-like in embracing the messiness of real life and non-normal people.

  It let them continue in their fears, which led them to protect their territory rather than reach out to me in the ways I wished they would have.

  Laurie thanks for listening to the podcast and thanks for your comments. You’re right - some Christians do get paralyzed by fear. Which is unfortunate because I can say from first hand experience, probably all she is looking for is a little grace, kindness and acceptance.

  I don’t really understand why Christian belief doesn’t give answers to these fears. Do you? I mean, the Bible says, don’t be anxious about anything and, perfect love casts out fear.

  Why don’t those verses ‘work’ in real life?

  When Christians are faced with a scary situation like a person who is not behaving normally, why do those verses seem to make no difference?

• Comment by: laurie

  11 02/8/08 10:16 PM | Comment Link |

  Helen, I totally agree with you. There are many verses that speak to the issue of the anxieties of life. And, plenty more examples of people in the Bible who had bouts of fear and doubt - and show an honesty that is at once touching - sometimes terrifying - and sometimes humorous. Think of poor Gideon and his fleece. But, then again, it must be unnerving to have the God you worshipped only in certain fashions actually talk to you - and then tell you that you had to lead an army against your enemies….

  I think the Psalms are marvelous windows into the hearts and minds of people who really had no where else to turn.

  Which leads me to my theory of today. I don’t claim it’s right. It’s just what keeps me sane when I see people unwilling to go outside their comfort zones.

  Part One.. the presence of information and technology. If you read some of the Christian writers of as close as a century ago, they all felt powerless against the trials of living on this earth. There was little available to help them. My own father-in-law got strep throat, which led to scarlet fever, which led to rheumatic heart disease - all for lack of antibiotics. The end result was a lifetime of cardiovascular disease that crippled the end of his life. I think that Christians these days do not feel that kind of desperation. “If we can put a man on the moon, if Dr. Phil can turn a person around in 30 minutes, then surely there is a tangible way out of the mess.” So the default is going to what we can see. Which leads to:
  Result One: people give up on the resources of God too quickly. There are so many quick fixes in our world. So, they communicate a message to others that says that “if you are still struggling, then either technology or God has not come through… or, perhaps, you are not trying hard enough….. ”
  Part Two. the prioritization of comfort…. Yes, there are abundant stories of people who, when push came to shove, did the hard thing and loved well. Yet, there are other examples of people who stood at a choice point, and decided that they could not - or would not - make the sacrifice of their own ease/happiness when faced with a life challenge.

  In my view, both part one - a reliance on information and technology - and part two - a prediliction to pick easy over hard - has led to an unwillingness to stay a long course in the face of overwhelming pain. And, therefore, people have been impoverished - they have not been convinced that God will “lead the blind by the way they do not know.” They have not seen God, “prepare a table in the midst of their enemies.”

  So, without a history, without story, they are mired in fear.

  But, Helen, that’s just my theory.

  I want you to know that… I think it is damnably hard to muster up faith in the midst of calamity without the strength and encouragement of others. I think of Abraham (I think it was Abraham… someone correct me if I’m wrong.. I’m just too tired/lazy to check) viewing the battle.. when he dropped his arms.. the battle went against his people .. and then .. when two friends raised his arms.. the battle reverted to his favor.

  When someone is facing a life challenge……what a crime to leave him or her trying to keep his or her arms raised alone….

  For me, I don’t know why, perhaps because I found like-minded women to hold each others’ arms up, I have taken the long walk with several women. I have found that, when we have been confused, frightened, alarmed, angry, beaten-up, and tired, it just has seemed as though we have had enough grace, enough wisdom, enough strength for the next day. And, we have attributed it to God.

  Helen, I have not exhausted your site.. but, from what I have gleaned, your husband has been a help to you. How sad that others did not join in.

  And, Helen, I want you to be assured that I am just trying to answer your questions as honestly as possible. Please, if there is anything that jars you, then drop it in the dust. I do not want to be one more Christian who inflicts harm upon you. Please let me know how I can learn from you and be supportive.

  P.S. I LOVE the secular cognitive theorists. I think Albert Ellis has written some amazingly hard hitting stuff. (Don’t “should” on yourself is one of my favorites.) I am also fond of David Burns’ New Mood Therapy Workbook.

  P.P.S. There are some Christian writers who have caught on to this. Backus and Chapian’s book “Telling Yourself the Truth” had an impact on me back in the 80’s.

• Comment by: Helen

  12 02/9/08 5:15 AM | Comment Link |

  Thanks Laurie. Nothing jars me - I enjoyed and appreciated your thoughts.

  Your theory makes sense to me - I think one of the main ways we overcome fear is by facing the fear (maybe we are forced to or maybe we choose hard over easy) and finding out we can survive it.

  People who don’t have to face the fear but can retreat stay in fear because they never find out they could have got through it.

  Having said that I am realizing lately there are lots of things I am afraid of. So I should be careful not to be too judgmental about other people and their fears.

  My husband found it very hard when I was actually ill. I would say he was not very supportive because he was in ’survival’ mode himself, trying to get through a bizarre and unexpected situation that literally was very close to home. No-one had as much of me to deal with as he did. It was very frustrating when people outside the situation assumed he was being hugely supportive. I think anyone familiar with the dynamics of mental illness in a marriage would understand that it can wear the spouse down too much to be supportive at a time the mentally ill person really needs support.

  In general he’s great but how it was when I was ill - that’s a normal ramification of the reality of mental illness (and other acutely difficult situations that affect both marriage partners)

  Having a counselor was invaluable because he was trained to listen and outside the situation so it was not personally threatening to him. I should have made sure I had one after my first episode of illness. I thought it would work to talk to my psychiatrist - who I met at church when ill and thought that was a ’sign’ I should see him for professional medical help. Both were mistakes…but, life is a learning experience. It was very hard having to find a new psychiatrist when I was in the midst of illness (2nd episode) but I had had it when mine said “Don’t play games with me young lady!” After that I was soooo outta there (did you notice I met him at church - I trusted him solely because he was ‘Christian’ - never again…)

  It IS hard without others - it seems like somehow I found people who cared, here and there. Some of them were people I only knew via the Internet. Hence my strong and continuing belief that although ‘real life’ relationships are best, the Internet can provide some level of support that is truly meaningful to people in need.

  I’m not going to argue against the idea that God sent those people. What I do have a problem with is people telling me I *should* (I suppose they aren’t Ellis readers :-)) have such-and-such a relationship with God, even though that doesn’t work for me given what I’ve been through. Invariably the people who say that have no idea what it’s like to have been through mental illness. They make invalidating assertions about what they know nothing of. Even a pastor from my former church did this once - he was trying to help but it was anything but helpful.

  I’m glad you’ve found the cognitive theorists helpful too. I have one of David Burns’ books. I LOVE Albert Ellis’ marriage book based on cognitive therapy principles (Love is never enough) I hadn’t heard of Backus and Chapian. It’s good to hear about Christians picking up on their teachings.

• Comment by: laurie

  13 02/9/08 9:21 AM | Comment Link |

  “I think one of the main ways we overcome fear is by facing the fear (maybe we are forced to or maybe we choose hard over easy) and finding out we can survive it.

  People who don’t have to face the fear but can retreat stay in fear because they never find out they could have got through it.”

  I believe that!
  I think that, as long as there is an easier way out, then many people will choose to flee.

  I think that’s why so many people with mental illness can only count on family. Somehow, relational ties keep people engaged. That does not necessarily mean that family necessarily is hugely supportive (many do get backed off into survival mode). But, many family members don’t abandon their loved ones.

  So, they get to be the ones to prove to themselves that they can face their fears.

  Kind of makes you wonder … if the church calls itself a family… then there is really no excuse not to love…

  That said… here’s another reason that popped into my head… from another situation I know about…
  There is someone who is struggling terribly.. and she is truly in need of support. And, when someone pays attention to her - she talks - non-stop. She will even follow the person to a car and continue talking. I’m not saying that the struggling person is wrong, or “should” change. So, the person who is trying to be loving has to figure out how to limit the encounter in as loving a way as possible. And, that’s hard. Somehow it feels “not nice” to cut someone off. And, in some cases, I have been accused of not being supportive because I have not been available. I think that many otherwise loving people avoid verbose strugglers because they do not want to learn how to love with limits.

  I agree with you that Christian is not synonymous with “competent in all arenas.” And, it’s not synonymous with “experienced” or “mature.”

  I don’t know anyone who has walked through a mental illness well who has not had a company of friends and family to support her. I am grateful for e-mail because it has been very helpful with one friend of mine. A group of us have set up a running e-mail conversation with this friend. She hits “reply all” and then writes and writes however, whenever, whatever she wants. Then, whichever friend makes it to the e-mail next can hit “reply all” and then offer some thoughts. It’s like a group conversation - very stretched out.

• Comment by: Helen

  14 02/9/08 9:46 AM | Comment Link |

  Laurie wrote:
  

  There is someone who is struggling terribly.. and she is truly in need of support. And, when someone pays attention to her - she talks - non-stop. She will even follow the person to a car and continue talking. I’m not saying that the struggling person is wrong, or “should” change. So, the person who is trying to be loving has to figure out how to limit the encounter in as loving a way as possible. And, that’s hard. Somehow it feels “not nice” to cut someone off. And, in some cases, I have been accused of not being supportive because I have not been available. I think that many otherwise loving people avoid verbose strugglers because they do not want to learn how to love with limits.

  I think you’re absolutely right.

  At church in a meeting one day I learned from watching someone put her hand gently on the arm of someone with about 8 diagnoses and say “Thank you, [name]“. That was a kind way to help him know he’d said enough. She was a professional counselor - maybe that’s how she knew how to do that. I wouldn’t have known but after seeing what she did I did the same thing when I was sitting next to him in future (which happened a number of times because he sought me out).

  I like your group e-mail idea - that’s a neat way to share out helping someone with a lot of needs so it becomes more doable.

  I know there aren’t easy answers. I just wonder when the way Christians behave towards people with a lot of needs seems to be the way they’d behave without God - I wonder if God really makes a difference in their lives. That may be judgmental but for someone looking to see if God is real it’s pretty important whether he/she can see evidence he is in the lives of Christians.

• Comment by: laurie

  15 02/9/08 8:15 PM | Comment Link |

  Oh, Helen…

  We’re bumping into the eminantly reasonable idea that God should make a difference in Christians’ lives…

  And, that difference should be the evidence of God’s existence and reason for people to believe in him…

  Too tough for me to defend…

  I know that Jesus’ prayer in John 17 urged unity in his followers - so that others would see his love.
  I believe that Jesus was laying down a principle… people need evidence… And, a loving community is evidence….

  Unfortunately, Helen, I sure can not prove unqualified love over the gross Christian population.
  There are some (perhaps many - depending upon the poll) who show the US mindset of adding God on to their already self-reliant, pleasure driven mentality. God is insurance against hell, the provider of a warm feeling, and the person responsible for things going well in their lives. They do not display his character to a watching world.

  .. And, people making small but consistant sacrifices don’t make the newspaper. The mother who continues to care for her child, the neighbor who consistantly gives attention, the teacher who uses her own salary to provide materials for her class (plenty of every day examples), the boss who inspires his whole company to support a co-worker diagnosed with cancer (yes, an amazing true story) just don’t get publicized. And they are sporadic and piecemeal.

  But, you know what… you can find evidence of self-sacrifice in many people who do not hold to a Christian faith….

  So, to me, I just don’t think that I can buy Jesus by relying on his salespeople here on earth…
  There are some remarkable salespeople here in the US. And, I believe that, in countries where there is deprivation and persecution, his followers provide a contrast that is stunning. But, it is not uniform enough to be universally compelling.

  So, don’t know where to go from here. For me, I have had to have a ratcheting mechanism… I believe in God a little bit.. I ask him to help a little bit.. he seems (note the subjective word seems) to provide a little bit.. and I get a bit bolder.. and he seems to provide again. I have also relied on the stories of others. I have heard from others that they believe that God has provided the presence they have needed.

  Just a note.. I do not believe that the Bible ever promises anything other than the presence of God. I do not believe that, in the middle of a struggle, that we can be assured of anything other than that God will listen and care. (Psalm 23 - “Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death…” note that God does not remove the psalmist from the circumstance)

  OK… I am struggling.. it just sure doesn’t seem more than rambling..

  Here’s where I currently sit after years of wrestling…
  I just don’t thing God gives a rip about timing. We expect that we will encounter a trial, God will show up in a way that will be obvious, and we will overcome the trial.

  But, look at Joseph. He languished in slavery for at least 20 years. Talk about a delay of justice..

  Here’s what I have observed. And please know that I am not privy to huge data bases.. this is just my own life experience.
  I have observed that this life is rampant with the deficiencies of an imperfect world (e.g. cancer and mental illness) and the horrific choices of others (e.g. child abuse and the bloodletting in Kenya). And, I so want to swoop in, right after the infraction, and get God’s intervention to make it better. Yet, what I have observed is, that God does not act in a dramatic way immediately. It seems like, he just lets the person be troubled, troubled, troubled until some time - and there seems to be no rhyme or reason to this time - that he steps in with some combination of supernatural intervention, human companionship, and physical and/or material resources.

  And, this seems to have the effect of ameliorating the sensation of urgency with the circumstance and a focusing of the attention on him….

  So, Helen.. this is really getting long. Is there an etiquette for blog posting? I admit that I am very new to this. So, feel free to correct me when (not if) I thwart the rules.

  Helen.. this is the best I can offer tonight. I would be most glad to keep conversing.

  Perhaps you are tired of hearing it… or perhaps you need to hear this again… In my opinion, you are a safe person. I am so glad to know you.

• Comment by: Helen

  16 02/9/08 8:50 PM | Comment Link |

  Thanks Laurie. No what you wrote wasn’t too long - we don’t have rules about length. We just ask people to be respectful of each other.

  We can keep talking - I like talking with you. But please understand I’m really not interested in being anything other than an almost-atheist at present. I’m happy not interacting with God (if he even exists). I like it better this way, in fact.

  I’m happy for you that you’ve worked out a way to reconcile your belief in God with what you see happening in the world around you. I like that you’ve thought about it rather than holding onto a system of beliefs come what may and ignoring or explaining away what you see around if it doesn’t match your beliefs.

• Comment by: laurie

  17 02/19/08 9:01 PM | Comment Link |

  Just back from a visit to my daughter.

  I like the way you ask questions. I really enjoy the challenge of articulating what I do believe… and what remains totally mystifying to me. I don’t know that a person can have integrity alone. I think integrity demands a continual conversation.

  I would be lying if I wrote that it didn’t matter to me what you believe. On the other hand, I don’t think my calling is to convince you.

  I am grateful for the opportunity to hear from someone who has experienced the ice and the fire of mental illness and is willing to share her journey. And, I do feel a passiion to teach/exhort/woo others to care well for someone who is struggling.

  Question… what would your husband say he needed most when you were experiencing your symptoms?

• Comment by: Helen

  18 02/20/08 6:34 PM | Comment Link |

  Hi Laurie, I’m glad you don’t feel called to convince me. It’s no fun for me being around people who feel otherwise.

  I’m not sure what my husband would say and to be honest I don’t really want to ask: he hasn’t volunteered to answer questions my blog commenters ask, even the nicest blog commenters :). It generally doesn’t go anywhere helpful to talk about this with him so I don’t.

• Comment by: laurie

  19 03/2/08 1:56 PM | Comment Link |

  Thanks for your explanation. You could have just said “no thanks.”

  I agree, it is totally no fun for me to be around people who want to convince me about something and who just can not or will not believe that I do not see it the way they do. I think I am allergic to rhetorical questions. Whenever someone says… it’s obvious that… any anyone who thinks otherwise is (take your pick - neanderthal, uninformed, uneducated, lazy,)… I feel an urge to flee.

  I sense this… “no room for argument in so many venues” not just in religious dialogue. My children and I still laugh about the time that someone we knew absolutely asserted that - without fail - emphasized with a pound on the table - “cold pie tastes better than warm pie.” It’s now our family cue that someone is moving into the realm of dogmatism…

• Comment by: Helen

  20 03/2/08 2:31 PM | Comment Link |

  Thanks Laurie. Those pie dogmatists can be quite something :)