Posted by Helen on: 06.05.2008 /
Todd Hunter’s new website, Three is Enough, is now live.
The site has lots of information about Three is Enough Groups and Todd is going to be blogging there regularly.
The groups are called “Three is Enough” groups because they are they are three friends or colleagues doing three simple and humble activities: pray, grow and serve.
Any three people who want to can start their own group. You don’t have to register anywhere - just do it! The FAQs page has suggestions and guidelines to get you started.
From the What is Three is Enough? page
God’s purpose for us is that we become his cooperative friends, serving others—the least, the last, the broken and the missing—in the everyday affairs and rhythms of our lives. TiE Groups provide a simple way to do just that. Anyone can do it: three nurses, three investment bankers, three cops or firemen, three administrative assistants, etc. While it takes intention to start and some minimal facilitation along the way, it takes no special leadership for it to work and multiply.
On the Why Three is Enough…Why now? page Todd describes the three activities of a TiE group
- Pray to be alert to the Spirit’s leadership and guidance; pay attention to the people and events of your life; pray for Spirit-power that enables you to be an ambassador of the Kingdom in the routines of your life; and pray for the ability to do so for the good of others.
- Grow by reading that facilitates the journey inward and the journey outward, by meditating on the things the Spirit highlights in your reading; and by discussing your reading with your TiE Group once a week over coffee, lunch or after work.
- Serve others by being alert, by noticing others; through creative, resourceful and inventive help for others; being humble, gentle, generous and genuinely altruistic—no attention drawn to you or your TiE Group. God’s purpose for you is that you are his cooperative friend–serving others—the least, the last, the broken and the missing—in the everyday affairs and rhythms of your life.
There’s much more information on the site - go check it out!
Comment by: Jason Horton
1I didn’t like this from the FAQ
Gah! I’m so negative.
I did like this though:
It shows me that Christianity isn’t stagnant and can be a force for good and change in the world. Positive change.
Comment by: Helen
2Right - Todd is hoping Three is Enough groups will improve the way Christianity is practised. Which in turn will help make the world a better place, because Christians will be focusing more on serving others.
Could you elaborate on what you didn’t like? To save me guessing :)
Comment by: Jason Horton
3Silly me. Other than the tone, which came across as dismissive of us godless heathens, it seemed to be saying that inviting atheists is a bad idea because we don’t belong. As if we cannot do good. More than that it seemed to be saying that the only reason to invite an atheist along (if you have to) is to convert them. It came across as narrow minded and more than a little offensive. You know how sensitive I can be. ;)
Comment by: Helen
4Yes, you’re such a thin-skinned atheist, Jason :)
This is my perspective on what Todd wrote…
I didn’t see him anywhere saying atheists can’t be good. And he’s not saying, invite atheists to convert them, as in, change their minds, because what he actually says is, only invite people who are already interested.
You could look at it this way: to some extent these groups are support groups. And a support group doesn’t feel safe if some members of it don’t hold the core shared interest of the group.
So - a vegetarian support group wouldn’t invite meat eaters unless they were ready to become vegetarians and want to learn more about it. Because the people in the group want to feel everyone in it ‘gets’ why they are vegetarians and will support them and be positive about being vegetarians.
I think at least some atheists would feel the same way about having Christians in an atheist support group. I could easily see someone initiating atheist support groups saying, don’t invite people who aren’t atheists or indicating they’re well on their way to being atheists (people on their way might need support most of all :)).
Even if you don’t personally feel a need to be in a group which supports your atheism, does what I’m saying make sense about those who do want to be in groups like that?
For what it’s worth - maybe this will add some context - Christians are taught they need to be in what amount to Christian support groups/communities. It’s a core tenet of Christianity that that’s essential to living a Christian life.
Comment by: Jason Horton
5I knew I was being over sensitive. ;)
3 is enough doesn’t look like a support group though. It looks like an effort to encourage small groups of people to offer help and support to others. Extending the veggie analogy, if I wanted to form a group to share the health and flavour of veggie food I wouldn’t object to a non-veggie joining in as long as they could cook and were willing to keep their bones and dead flesh at home.
Let’s say a 3 group formed that offered to collect shopping for the elderly. A helpful, community oriented Christian idea. If a kindly atheist offered to drive the van or carry the bags of shopping would he be rejected on religious grounds? That is what doesn’t seem right. What if a local Muslim or Jew was the one who offered to drive?
I’m not trying to be negative about it. It was just that one FAQ that gave me pause. The idea is essentially sound and offers practical help for communities. It’s just what is needed to build a community spirit and foster ties within it.
Comment by: Helen
6Jason wrote:
I don’t see why a group would say “no, you can’t be involved in this project” to someone who wants to help. I think it’s the conversation at the meetings which Todd is thinking wouldn’t work for someone who wouldn’t want to have conversations that assume Christianity is true. And I think it’s quite possible the atheist would say “I’d love to help as long as you don’t make me show up at your ‘Christian’ meetings” - in other words, atheists probably wouldn’t want to be at a meeting where Christians talk ‘Christian’ any more than Christians would feel safe in a support sense if they were there. But if there were planning/organizing meetings for the project the atheist was helping with, of course it would make sense to include the atheist in those. I don’t see a reason why the atheist would be a ‘lesser’ team member that would be excluded from planning/organizing the logistics of the people helping project.
I’m sure Todd is not trying to drive a further wedge between Christians and people who aren’t Christians. The way TiE is structured is based on his beliefs about what would work at Christian group meetings as well as what helping people looks like.
I agree with you in thinking an initiative focused on helping people could involve anyone who wants to help, regardless of what they believe or don’t believe. But this specific initiative typically incorporates Christian thinking about the importance of Christians meeting together to discuss stuff in a Christian way that doesn’t work the same way if people with different beliefs are there.
The support angle is the best analogy I can think of. I don’t think support groups are intended to imply ‘if you don’t have this support need you’re inferior to us’. And similarly this is not intended to imply that people who ‘qualify’ for groups because they’re Christians or on their way to being Christians are better because they qualify.
It’s hard to explain…I doubt I’d understand why Christians feel it’s so vital to be with other Christians if I hadn’t been a Christian for 16 years.
I appreciate your honest comments - I know you’re not trying to be negative.
Comment by: Jason Horton
7As an atheist I wouldn’t want to be involved in a prayer. I mean I could shut up and wait till it was over and then help out. How long does a prayer take? 5 minutes? ;)
To my simply mind the trappings of faith are superfluous to living within that faith. A church is a building, a cross is a bit of jewelry, a prayer isn’t necessary if you believe that your god knows everything. These things are obstacles to doing things constructively.
A while ago I wrote on Friendly Christian about what I thought doesn’t work to attract people to a faith. I also mentioned that I thought that actually helping people in the community would be the best form of evangelism that there could be. It seems to me that TiE has the potential to do just that in a very positive way and in helping others they might also make Christianity more attractive to skeptics.
Let me use my own life as an example. I don’t go to church, I don’t take my kids to church although they have been. I think that the church is a waste of a perfectly good Sunday morning. If I were shown that this was a mistaken view by a small group who genuinely helped people then I might see what this God stuff was about. I might not, but nobody would lose anything by that. It doesn’t matter if God is real if there is a tangible benefit to the community to attending church. TiE could really do that.
Comment by: Amy Black
8” How can we assure worried people that a TiE Group is not a cult?
The best way is to not act like one! ”
That’s my favorite part!
Comment by: Todd Hunter
9Hi Jason and Helen,
I certainly agree that any human being is capable of serving others and they often do–even atheists–even religious people! That was never in doubt in my mind. I welcome any atheist who wants to pray, grow and serve as I outline it to come–we’d be glad to have you!
Comment by: Jason Horton
10Hi Todd, it’s hard to argue with a guy who wants people to act in a Christlike manner. Arguing about the best way to do this might be more constructive. For me a person can live compassionately and generously without the added impetus of Jesus. Having said that, if it helps you to help others then who am I to stand in your way.
Comment by: Helen
11Hi Todd, thanks for dropping by to respond to comments about Three is Enough.
I don’t think there is such a thing as an atheist who wants to pray.
But I guess what you’re saying is “I welcome anyone who wants to pray, grow and serve”. Since you value all three of those activities, it’s important to you that groups are made up of people who want to practise all three of them.
I’m not eligible to be in a group because I don’t pray and because I don’t think of growth quite like you do (although I do value it and pursue it).
I could try to push you into changing your vision so I become eligible for a group but I think that would be unotherly, counterproductive, and disrespectful.
If I expect you to respect my choice not to pray I should respect yours to pray and to form groups that pray. I couldn’t put it better than Jason: “if [the added impetus of Jesus] helps you to help others then who am I to stand in your way?”
Comment by: Todd Hunter
12Thanks again Helen and Jason–good thoughts; you are pushing me to clarify my thinking. Praying, as you say, would be especially unworkable for atheists–especially with the way I have defined it: http://www.3isenough.org/tie-group-guidelines/
Maybe we could make exceptions for non-hostile atheists (those who do not think “religion is destroying humanity”)–we could stipulate that they do not need to pray–just grow and serve! :-)
Don’t push me too hard—you are both smarter than I—I may not be able to follow you!
Comment by: Jason Horton
13Todd, I suppose it all comes down to semantics. Doesn’t it always? What is prayer? As a somewhat stroppy atheist who is trying really hard to curb his hostility I view prayer as a method of meditation to calm and order your thoughts. Added to this is an internal dialog or sometimes a verbal expression of hope. I don’t accept that there is an external or supernatural voice but, in all honestly, if it isn’t telling you to push old ladies into traffic I’m fine with you believing in one.
I also don’t believe that prayer has a supernatural effect. I believe that people attribute fortune to sometimes unrelated things and prayer may be one of those things. Again that’s pretty harmless.
If you do attract atheists then why not explain prayer in the Pray-Grow-Serve mantra as I’ve outlined and allow them to order their thoughts appropriately? That way you don’t restrict their involvement and you encourage them to join in.
Just a suggestion. :)
Comment by: Helen
14Todd I really appreciate your openness to the possibility of including friendly atheists who want to grow and serve in TiE groups. I wasn’t sure you’d want to go there - I’m delighted you’re willing to consider it.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
15It may simply be the reality that there are some experiences followers of Jesus / spiritual seekers and atheists have to agree arent made for both groups.
I think the dialog may be more valuable in terms of personal growth than the likelihood we will come to a negotiated agreement/model.
Why do atheists need to join spirtual groups to find a way to participate in these kinds of practices?
Why do they care? What is it about these groups that generate interest?
Why don’t atheists organize support groups anyway - to read and serve others? I’m not asking this in a snotty tone- I really find it fascinating that they dont gather or connect very much with each other.
Similar to what Jason said earlier - I guess as long as they aren’t plotting to push old ladies in the street - they’re behavior would be harmless and I would be happy to encourage people who are disinterested in Jesus and spirituality to join groups of atheists who want to make the world a better place but dont want to have to participate in prayer
groups as part of their mission.
Why don’t people like Dawkins or Harris or Hitchins form these groups? It certainly would help to take the air out of the sails of the arguments of those who claim that the spiritual impetus (real or not) certainly seems to give people a motive to do those things.
Just asking…
Comment by: Helen
16Jim wrote:
I agree. In practice I think putting people who like to talk about God and people who don’t together in a group to talk with each other might leave them all feeling somewhat constrained and/or dissatisfied. Even though they might all value otherlyness.
There are a lot of online places that function as atheist support groups.
Some atheists go to UU churches for community.
Some atheists don’t like to be open about their atheism because of repercussions from family/coworkers - and then if they aren’t open it’s hard to find other atheists to be in a group with. Or to meet in that sort of group will keeping their atheism under wraps.
But - some do. I have an online secular humanist friend in the South who wrote to me a couple of years ago (we haven’t been in touch lately) about a secular group he participates in which does helping projects.
Comment by: Jason Horton
17Jim, you’ve probably heard of Richard Dawkin’s OUT campaign or the Brights organisation and then there are all those on-line groups that Helen mentioned. You should also consider that atheism isn’t a positive movement or a philosophy that draws people to form groups. Quite the opposite actually. Secular humanism is a positive movement though and there are plenty of humanist groups about. There’s also the fact that atheists might well feel more comfortable seeking support, growing and serving their community as part of another group unaffiliated with religion or philosophy.
My home town has a number of projects raised by the Lions Club which is a rugby club that does a lot of local charity. It has no faith element but isn’t an atheist organisation either.
I agree that groups with different philosophies aren’t “made” for one another but I do feel that it is important that they don’t actively discriminate against anyone. That goes for Brights calling all theists idiots as well as Christians calling all atheists baby eaters. :) Too chewy. I’m wary of placing restrictions on open organisations. I’m especially wary when the restrictions are unnecessary and run counter to the stated aims of the organisation. Not that they do with the TiE group.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
18Im down with this