Posted by Helen on: 07.09.2008 /
Benjamin asked this question in a recent comment:
Can I do the same thing with religion as with the Bible, and throw out the flat book approach–take what works, chuck the rest?
Which got me thinking.
To me it’s fascinating that this is even a question. By insisting “you cannot do this”, some conservative Christians have made it into an issue. If they hadn’t, would anyone even be asking whether they can use their own judgment about what applies to them out of a book that’s 2,000 years old?
One of the most interesting things to me about the conservative Christian system is how it takes so much permission away from people. Many conservative Christians would be quick to say that taking too much permission away from people is a defining characteristic of a cult. But when I look at conservative Christian groups I often see it happening in them too. Maybe it’s not quite so extreme but it’s there. Listen to any Bible answer person on the radio and the questions people ask. Many questions come down to issues of permission “Is it ok with God if I do this?” For some reason they think the Bible answer person will know more about this than they do and they let the Bible answer person in effect make decisions about their lives for them.
This is how many conservative Christians live their lives. Evidently they think it’s fine. I don’t. There was a point (after being a conservative Christian for a number of years) where I decided “Never again am I going to let some Christian leader who barely knows me (and obviously a person on the radio knows even less than a local Christian leader - but they often know very little, if it’s a large church) tell me how I should be living my life”.
I feel sorry for people who have come to believe being a Christian requires so much asking permission from others (in effect). And it makes me angry that leaders play along with it when people ask their permission, acting as if they have authority to make decisions about the lives of others when that really doesn’t belong to them. I don’t think they’re fully aware of what they’re doing - I think they believe they are giving God’s permission, not their own. But they are the ones whose opinion is being sought. Whether God is behind it all or not, they hold the keys that lock or unlock the doors in the lives of people coming to them and asking whether they may step through those doors.
(By the way, I don’t know whether Benjamin was asking permission - he may just have been ‘wondering’. My post is a general response to how often I hear people asking permission in a Christian context)
Comment by: Stephan
1Ultimately, I believe, we will all answer only to God Himself, not to any other humans, so I will not hold anyone to anything they cannot believe wholeheartedly. I may be incorrect and hold them to an inaccurate standard. In that case I have to answer both for myself and the person I misled. That’s more pressure than I need. So I won’t stop anyone from questioning and following only what they hold to be true.
Comment by: April Terry
2I think one of the inherent problems is in assuming that the Bible is the only revelation that we get for our faith. Certainly, the Holy Spirit plays a big part in teaching us what we know about God.
Faith is something that we are reaching out for, and sometimes because of our experiences in life, we have a hard time reaching for certain concepts and ideas. We may be wrong on some of the concepts and right on others. I believe in a God of wisdom and mercy who is able to see our hearts and weigh them accordingly, and though I know that there are concepts that I have a hard time reaching, my faith is shored up by the concepts that I can reach.
Some want to be able to draw the lines and talk about who is in and who is out of the family of God, but it’s doubtful that it is this black and white. It is more likely that everyone is reaching toward God from different heights. Some from the mountaintops, some from the lowest of the valleys.
Comment by: Bob W
3I don’t need to ask my pastor if I’m doing something wrong, I’ll usually know it in my heart. I don’t need permission from others, I need to act in a manner that is pleasing to God. (what you frequently refer to as living a good life - but I think it’s a bit more) Sometimes I will ask the opinion of others but as Stephan pointed out, ultimately it’s God we have to answer to.
That being said, it infuriates me when leaders use the pulpit to forward personal agendas by controlling the behavior or finances of the congregation. But there is a difference between that and a pastor reinforcing a somewhat obvious moral code of behavior. And you would be surprised how many people have very little upbringing in terms of values or a moral compass. So some times it is important to ask and speak the obvious. People just need to understand who they are truly accountable to, and make sure they are not being manipulated for human gain. As long as this is done out of genuine love and not legalism I’m okay with it.
I think we all struggle with the “system” and it’s imperfections, but some of the things we can resent are there for our benefit, even if they aren’t always presented in the best possible way. Ultimately it’s about what’s permissable in God’s eyes, not whether or not I have the permission to do it. God let’s us do whatever we want, but we have to suffer the consequences of our mistakes.
Comment by: Elizabeth Chapin
4Helen, I love your thinking and questioning here! When I first married, I treated my husband much like a father figure (asking permission for everything) and it nearly killed our marriage. I think many conservative Christians only view God as a father figure and then put themselves in the place of YOUNG child (not grown child) and therefore ask permission for EVERYTHING!
My view of God has changed quite a bit over the years - from seeing God primarily as Father to relating to God as friend (Jesus said, I no longer call you servants but friends). Being a cooperative friend of God is a lot more fun than putting myself in the position of completely dependent, unable to make decisions for myself child of God.
I also think asking God for permission for everything is a cop out for many Christians - they don’t have to do any of the thinking and then if things go badly they can just blame God.
Surely, in the Bible God does give some commands and invites us to follow them - but God does not give specific directions for everything in life. Even Jesus boiled down the commands of God into simple statements - love God and love your neighbor as yourself. If we take these as guiding principles which require us to do some thinking about how to apply them in real life situations, then I believe we will be more true to the calling of being a Christian.
Comment by: benjdm
5What makes the whole thing ironic is that the books that make up the Bible were picked and chosen from a larger collection of books. You can’t get away from ‘cherry-picking.’
Comment by: benjamin ady
6Bob,
I’m having a hard time visualizing/imagining examples of things we can resent which are there for our benefit. Could you help me out with any concrete examples? That would be kewl.
Thank you =)
Comment by: karen
7As a conservative Christian, I was made to strongly doubt my own judgment - to the point where I did find myself afraid to act without asking “permission” from the authorities (i.e., pastors, teachers, Sunday school leaders, even my husband). I didn’t trust myself because of course I’d be taught that I was flawed, filthy, unworthy and basically so inherently sinful that any idea I came up with was likely to be wrong.
This attitude crippled my personal development for decades. It’s only been in the last 10 years (post-Christianity) that I started recognizing that I’m damned good at running my own life and don’t need to ask anyone’s permission to do what I think is right. If I screw up, I handle the consequences myself.
I suspect it is this kind of institutional infantilizing done by many religions that leads to the sad situation of grown ups thinking they need to get permission from authority figures.
Comment by: Bob W
8Benjamin - Sorry if the comment was confusing. An example would be someone (say a pastor from the pulpit) reminding us of what we should do when we already know what we should do. Sometimes I can resent that because — hey I already know this– don’t you trust me to do the right thing on my own ( a little pride goes a long way)? Or other times maybe I feel convicted because I’m leaning toward doing the wrong thing and I’m reminded of what the right thing is and then I’m hacked at them even though I know they’re right and I’m wrong. I didn’t say you would resent it, just immature dudes like me : )
Some times churches bang on the law too much, but the law in and of itself isn’t a bad thing — it’s there for our protection. So I may get tired of hearing it but it serves a purpose.
Here’s another example — say you do something that is out of line. As a concerned brother, Joe comes and talks to you, you get mad and keep doing what your doing. Joe, in keeping with the system then brings another brother along to talk to you, you get mad and say “kiss off” or something more imaginative. This is biblical method for handling conflict, yet you are embarrassed and upset with Joe. However if Joe is truly concerned for you, he’s just doing things the best he can according to the system. Ultimately Joe may save you from some heartache but you still resent it at the time.
Does that make sense? Maybe everyone else is far more mature but things like this irk me sometimes — but can ultimately be to my benefit. Sometimes they aren’t but often they are.
Comment by: Pseudonym
9In the LOLCat Bible, I translated some of those “abominations unto Nuggan”… err… “The Lord”, as “Ceiling Cat iz liek: DO NOT WANT!” I thought this captured their arbitrary nature quite nicely.
But yes, I agree. Whenever anyone says “the Bible says you should do this”, that means “according to my interpretation of the Bible, it says you should do this”. And because I decide how I interpret the Bible, it really means “I say you should do this”.
I think that half the problem here is the mistaken idea that Christian morality is about “thou shalt”s and “thou shalt not”s. Apart from Jesus’ three “great commandments”, I think the rest can be summed up with the Pauline dictum:
Rather than think in terms of “right” and “wrong”, perhaps we should be thinking in terms of “good” and “bad”. Rather than “is this okay with God?”, ask “is this good for myself or others, or is it bad?” This simple reframing of the question cuts through a lot of nonsense.
Comment by: Helen
10Stephan wrote:
Great point, Stephan.
April wrote:
What I like about the doctrine of the Holy Spirit is, it means people have the resource they need within them to guide them - not only that, the resource within them is better than any human leader. So they don’t have to take every decision to other people.
Bob, thanks for your comment. I appreciate your concern over pastors who are overcontrolling.
Elizabeth, you nailed it with this comment
There’s a huge difference between how a young child relates to their parents and how a grown child does and I wish this distinction was made more clearly in Christian circles.
bendjm, I think your comment might be more about the Jefferson Bible than Christians and permission, but anyway, I agree.
benjamin and Bob W, I can relate to what Bob said about ‘resenting what’s good for us’. For me, constructive criticism would be a good example of something I might resent but which is good for me.
Karen thank you so much for sharing a great example of exactly what I’m talking about. Why do you think it is that your own sinfulness invalidated your ideas but not everyone else’s (since they were all sinners too, right?)
Comment by: benjamin ady
11Bob–loved this.
I think pseudonym kind of nailed it for me with
Bob–that whole system you describe, taken from that model Jesus talked about in Matthew 18, just doesn’t work for me super well. It assumes a certain … superiority, somehow. Maybe in the original it was a lot more relational–it was talking about a *relational* grievance. I did something to hurt *you*, and this is how you should deal with it. But the interpretation I grew up with wasn’t about whether I did something to hurt *you*, but rather whether I did something you considered to be a “sin”, in some sense that was closer to being abstract or rule based than to being about how I hurt *you*. And I just find that totally obnoxious.
Do I make sense?
Of course maybe that was just the system I grew up in. Here’s a concrete example to explain what I mean. When I came back to my home church after two years of international travel with (gasp! God forbid!) an ear ring, there are two responses that stand out vividly for me.
One was the delightful Judy S., who came up, said to me she disaproved of my ear ring but that she totally loved me, and gave me a big hug. She was a safe person.
The pastor, on the other hand, sat me down and said something like “Your ear ring is offensive to a lot of people in the church. Some people think it is a sign of rebellion. I personally don’t think that, but I think you should get rid of it in order to avoid offense.”
I said “How do you know they are offended?”
He said “Well, one person in particular told me”.
I said “Well, who was it? I’d love to go talk with them about it.”
He said “Well, I’m not going to tell you that. They told me in confidence, and I don’t think you would handle the interaction with them well.”
I don’t know how I got off onto all this. But the point is, the first example seems like a proper (sort of) application of the passage in question. And the second one definitely doesn’t.
Comment by: David H
12Not o defend someone else’s position, but that approach is a clear violation of how Jesus said things should be done in Matthew 18.
However, I grew up in a system similar to yours Benjamin, and I saw this type of thing used as a hammer to get people’s behavior to conform to an individual interpretation of the Bible or group-think on what was sin. Usually the approach was not relational — we are friends (some might say brothers/sisters), let’s talk about why I think what you are doing isn’t right — usually it was confrontational — you are wrong, I am right, are you going to get in line or do I have to escalate this to church authorities or larger congregation.
Part of what I often saw missing was humility from the person bringing the grievance. They didn’t seem to believe there was any chance they were wrong. Secondly, it was all too often an either or — get in line or get out. Thirdly, the grievances I saw handled this way were frequently highly interpretative — like your ear-ring. The grievance was began with what bothers me and then became a “sign” of a sin that you had to deal with.
I also believe that rather than approaching things as sin, it is better to ask who they harm and how. That can make for a better place to begin talking to someone because it is more loving. It may also open the avenue for discussion rather than ultimatum. It offers they opportunity to talk about WHY the person is doing what they are doing. Within that why may be both the cause and the solution.
At the very least, such an approach might strengthen individual and group relationships. Everyone may still not agree with what is being done, but they may understand each other a bit better.
Comment by: Helen
13Benjamin, what bothers me most is that the pastor stuck up for the person who was offended and tried to change you because of it. Rather than him reading this
Why did the pastor side with him and not you? Maybe this is one of those passages that people who ‘believe the whole Bible’ don’t believe!
I let Christians interfere with my life more than I should have, looking back. Which is what that person was doing who thought his being offended meant you shouldn’t wear an earring.
Comment by: Bob (formerly Bob W) - I\'m going informal on you....
14Benjamin - That is a bummer, I am sorry that happened. If that person felt threatened or concerned they should have spoken to you in an open way. It’s not an easy job being a pastor so I won’t throw yours under the bus entirely, but it did seem he wimped out on you.
It’s easy to be afraid of things that are different, but if we act in a less than loving way about it we’re falling short, biblically as Helen pointed out with the verse from Romans. (Great verse by the way, the translation is nice:)
Sometimes the ways that we practice the Christian faith tend to focus on the negative versus the positive:
Bad: I am a sinner (quite true)
Good: I am a redeemed child of God (great news, why do we spend so much time talking about me being sinner?)
Bad: You shouldn’t do A,B,C,D,E, and F and you know you will be tempted to (absolutely, I shouldn’t, I still may sometimes though)
Good: You should have the fruit of the spirit, feel contentment, peace and joy. (that would be wonderful, why are we constantly dwelling on our (ABCDEF) failures instead of the victories?)
I do believe God tells us what things are wrong (through the bible and what is written in our hearts) not because he likes to make rules or make us feel bad, but because he wants to protect us from the consequences of those mistakes.
I do think we need to talk about sin and be reminded or our need for grace. It keeps us humble and grateful. One of the things that enables me to get along with people is realizing how much grace I require of God. If I can accept that grace, surely I can pay it forward and show some kindness and compassion to others. If we don’t do this we can get quite full of ourselves and that can be pretty repugnant.
However, sometimes trying to practice Christianity can feel like tremendous to do list (or to don’t list) instead of the joy filled life that God has in mind for us. How do we fix this? Maybe by focusing on more of the positives while admitting and accepting the negatives. I’m definitely not suggesting we ignore the parts we don’t like, maybe it’s more about our outlook and approach to those things and our faith in general.
Comment by: Bob
15Benjamin - I forgot one thing I wanted to mention. (gotta learn to be less verbose in these posts) I agree that the original context is more likely relative to wrongs between two people though and that sometimes it can be misused in a legalistic sense. But sometimes people talk to us about sin because we’re hurting ourselves (as opposed to someone else) , not just because it’s a sin. But it really depends on how it’s delivered. If the person has a sense of superiority it totally ruins it. If they show genuine concern and express it in a loving way then it can be better received. Althought I will say there have been times in the past where I felt convicted so I would project that sense of superiority on to people when it might not have been there. It’s a difficult thing to do well and have it be received well.
Comment by: benjamin ady
16Bob you kind of nailed it. I very loosely quote Dan Allender from a conference I attended once. An older guy in the front row asked, very sincerely, if Dan had any help for him in his wanting to speak to one of his young employees about sin he saw in the young man’s life. Dan said, very succingtly “Anytime we try to speak to someone about their sin without knowing, really knowing in our heart, that we are a worse sinner than they are, we will come across as condescending”
And … I don’t like being condescended to.
On the other hand, I rather *love* being commiserated with. (most of the time).
Too much of the so called “sin” that the church talks about (at least the church I have experienced) is some combination of silly, shallow, or … time/place bound. I mean *honestly*! smoking cigarettes is kind of a totally bogus sin in my book. Ear rings, hair length, modesty, alcohol consumption, homosexuality, blah blah blah blah blah ad nauseum. Almost anything you can think of has been deemed a “sin” by the church at some point somewhere in the last 2000 years. And I could go on and on and on. Meanwhile, we are very busy bombing children, sexually abusing children, consuming pornography, destroying the planet, starving the third world, still producing nuclear weapons, and cluster munitions, and …. not to mention not *listening* to those around us, not *seeing* them, not loving them, spending more on personal security than feeding the hungry …
(My list of “sins” is better than your list of “sins”. Na na na na na na (in lilting taunting voice))
Comment by: Helen
17Bob, I like the informal version :)
I hadn’t seen Romans 14:1-3 in The Message before but I thought I’d give it a go - I liked it too. Eugene Petersen often does a great job, imo.
I’m glad you’re able to focus on the positives and grace.
Comment by: Bob
18I was going to go with the artist formerly known as Bob W but it was too long…
I’d be fibbing if I said I am able to do it well, just something I’m working on. Have you ever read the 4:8 Principle? Good book about seeing things and yourself throught a Godly lens. Very positive.
Benjamin, I like that quote. God’s power is made perfect in our weakness (2 Corinthians 12:9-10). I may not like having the weakness but it can actually be of benefit in helping others relate to me and our need for God. But I have to be willing to admit that I’m weak for that to work, so pride can get in the way sometimes. We are equally and desperately in need of God’s grace. Things would go alot smoother if we remembered this.
Comment by: Pops
19My take on this is quite simple:
If it is in the Bible, then pretty much go with how God directs you to go on that point - rightly dividing the word of truth.
I see God giving laws to the Israelites and then breaking said laws to get His purpose done. God’s interest in His relationship with us is far greater than His law.
God Himself not being subject to His law and thus able to operate outside or even in contradiction to His law.
It all comes back down to our personal relationship that must be our number one focus at all times, then, if led to do a certain thing, go for it!
I mean how would the so called conservatives feel about a prophet being told to marry a prostitute instead of stoning her to death?
How did they feel about Jerry walking around naked when that was expressely forbidden?
Everything hinges on what God wants you to do at a specific time for a specific purpose - this is where the danger of books/blogs/ebooks comes about because someone moved by God did something, then they write a book about it and others try to imitate what they did - but without God having told them that that is what they are to do.
These things make for interesting reading but we have got to exercise caution here and not think that God is some sort of formula that if we copy, we will get the same results.
Lots of love!
Pops
Comment by: Helen
20Pops wrote:
Actually I don’t find that simple, Pops. If it is why are there so many things Christians disagree about? If I was a believer here are just a few questions I’d have which different Christians would answer differently: as a woman can I teach/lead men? Should I be baptized as a baby or older? Am I saved just by believing or not? Should I worship on Saturday or Sunday? Should I eat kosher (I’m Jewish by descent - some Jewish believers in Jesus think Jewish believers should still observe the Jewish law)? Can I play cards, dance, go to movies, drink any alcohol? Can I use birth control? Should I send my children to Christian schools?
And so on.
But I’m great at rationalizing and this basically gives me carte blanche to do whatever I like and say “Ah, but God told me to do this in this time and place. And the more you think I’m crazy the more likely it is that God told me to do it! After all he did tell Abraham to sacrifice his son…”
Anyway this is what I really want to know: who is Jerry?
Ah…could it be Jeremiah? I hadn’t heard his nickname before :)
Thanks but what does it mean to me that you love me? What difference does it make to me? (If it means you’re polite on my blog then I appreciate that :))
Comment by: Pops
21Because people got too smart for their own good and tried to come up with non biblical stuff, or perverted stuff to do their own thing - now that gets down to motives.
Why not? There are examples of this in the Old & New Testament.
If I asked you, the baby that and you could answer me, sure, get baptised.
Yes, if not the thief on the cross has a problem.
What is the ‘day of rest’ in your country?
Tear out the bits where it tells us the law is obsolete, gone, no longer applicable.
Without twisting the words or putting in what you want, show me the scripture where it says you can’t.
As above.
Do you want to? Do you think it is so written? If so where?
Sure, but one assumes a certain amount of honesty.
Any how, having to ask permission from some bloke who says he is in charge really means we should tear out the bits where Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would lead, and guide us in all areas, as would He, Jesus, and the Father! And if those 3 are not capabe of taking me down the right path, well, let’s go eat drink and be merry because we don’t stand a chance if we have to go back to humans for help!
(let’s go eat drink and be merry anyhow huh! :-))
So whilst I can give you what I think regarding your questions, the onus is on you to go collect your own manna for every day and work from there, bearing in mind that if we did not have the cock eyed teachings from historical systems, we would not be in this mess in the first place!
Yep, Jeremiah.
1. This is the net, how else can I show you love and respect except in words? Especially as we are 1000’s of miles apart!
2. I am a biker, trying hard to live according to the new nature courtesy of Jesus Christ. Be happy - I think I am succeeding to a degree!
If it is just words that mean nothing to you, I don’t give a monkeys! Jesus has given me a heart of love for a lot of people regardless of whether we have met or not - if you try and analyse everything everyone says, you are missing a huge amount of life time and perhaps…………mmmmmm, let me get back to the new nature for the rest of an answer here! ;-)
Okay, pretty flip answers but one can not have deep meaningful conversation over the net! If we was face to face, we could talk these things thru.
Lots of politeness on your blog! :-))
Pops
Comment by: Bob
22Pops — Props to you for dishing out the love. Bolder and more generous than my proclamations. I’ll take love over political correctness any day of the week.
Amen to that. Sometimes I feel like a hamster on one of those cage wheels. I’m hitting the checklist but not getting any where. Other times God will completely surprise me in the least expected places or circumstances. Good thing He’s patient and knows I don’t always hear so well. Just have to keep on persisting in faith.
Peace and love :)
Bob
Comment by: Jason Horton
23You can’t take permission away from someone unless they allow you to. If someone tells me that I can’t read the bible in a certain way then they either need to show me that my interpretation is flawed or butt out and let me read it anyway I like. I’m fine with the former because it allows for conversation and debate but if I’m wrong I need to be told how and why or I won’t accept it. Dogma does no one a favour.
Yeah, I’m allowed to read the bible. I know the ending already but there are some good bits.
Comment by: Elizabeth Chapin
24Jason, your comment reminds me of an Eleanor Roosevelt quote,
So, when we ask permission of others (like a faith community) we are giving them power over us, that they shouldn’t necessarily have. I find it interesting that so many people over the ages have given up the right of self-governance to another group of people or even an organization. Which then leads me to remember how some gospel presentations teach that the whole problem of sin is a problem of self-governance and the solution is putting ourselves under the governance of God (and hence the Church - God’s agent in the world.) This has proven to be problematic when the church no longer derives it’s power from the benevolent God portrayed in the New Testament, but rather from an authoritarian, dictatorial God that may not accurately represent the God as has been revealed in Jesus.
My developing view of this relationship of governance is that of shared power/control. While I believe in a God who is all powerful, I also believe in a God who chooses to share control of governing creation,
and invites us to be cooperative friends. I also think this concept of cooperative friends translates into how we should live in community - not with a leader who is the only one who can accurately know the mind of God and then tells “the people” how to live, but rather a people who are connected with God, created in the image of God and through their cooperative efforts with one another can help make the world a better place.
Comment by: Jason Horton
25Elizabeth, I’ve heard many Christians talk about being in a relationship with Christ. In a relationship you don’t seek permission from your partner to do something. You discuss it, perhaps you compromise, perhaps you go ahead and do what, most often you cooperate with one another as you’ve already outlined. Why can’t this apply to the church as well?
Comment by: Elizabeth Chapin
26Well, maybe you don’t seek permission from your partner… (see my first post in this conversation ;-)
I wonder the same thing, why doesn’t this apply to the church??
I’m not regularly attending a church right now, but I am looking for one where this does apply.
Comment by: Jason Horton
27;) Thanks for that Elizabeth, I hadn’t realised that you were serious. I have trouble imagining anyone deferring that much to me or deferring that much to anyone else. I think I’d find it annoying after a while. No offence.
I wish you luck with your search. With 20,000 or so different denominations of Christianity and a different idea of church in every street I don’t think that your search is impossible. You could even start your own.
Comment by: Bob
28I’m not sure the analogy of a relationship of equals is a fair way to make a comparison to the relationship with Christ. The whole ominiscience and power over all living things tends point to one partner being right all the time : )
I think it’s more going back towards that word “permission” that puts up our road block. In a truly loving relationship, you don’t do or avoid things because you have or asked permission. You do them out of love and sacrifice for the person you’re in the relationship with. You avoid things that are bad for you because they are potentially bad for your partner as well. However, sometimes we have to say difficult things or object, I think that’s different than granting permission. It’s an expression of concern for the person and the relationship. As long as it’s done out of love that’s okay.
I know it’s a bit different in our relationship with the church versus our personal relationship with Christ, but the same thoughts are applicable.
Comment by: Jason Horton
29Bob, you may be right, in a relationship there is give and take. We may or may not seek permission directly but we do offer it and offer encouragement all the time for actions we approve of. A church can offer this as can that inner voice that we have.
I’m not entirely sure what is meant by “a relationship with Christ”. I imagine that it is more esoteric than a physical or emotional relationship with an actual person. I don’t wish to be rude but isn’t a relationship with Christ very one sided? I mean that you may ask permission for a certain action but how do you receive that permission or denial?
Comment by: Bob
30Jason, that’s not rude at all, I think I understand what you mean. If I don’t just post again later with more info.
It’s not really about asking permission, it’s about trying to be more Christ-like. The relationship comes into play because we have to put our faith in Christ, accept his gift of redemption, and make him the head of our lives. (I know this may sound weird if you don’t believe– bear with me) We become more like him, not through our own efforts, but by his work in us. Some of the ways we commune with Christ for this to happen are prayer, worship, fellowship, and serving others. We develop an intimate relationship with Christ by learning about and adopting his character. Eventually his character becomes part of our own. We become more Christ-like, more patient, kind, loving, accepting, but also more righteous, not in the sense of our own accomplishment, but in the sense that we learn to do the things that are pleasing to God and avoid the things that aren’t. Not out of fear, and not in pride or false humility, but out of genuine love for God. Sorry this is so long, it’s hard to boil it down…and please don’t think just because I’m writing this I’ve managed to get to this point, it’s a life long process. I’m trying to illustrate the goal, not my personal progress.
Do I get IM’s or an audible voice? No. But exercising my faith I get a better and better sense of what God does and doesn’t want me to do. It’s more a peace about things and a contentment than a constant stream of specific answers. Others may experience it differently, this is just my experience. Let me know if that makes sense at all. Thanks!
Bob
Comment by: benjamin ady
31Hey Elizabeth–Jason’s quote *totally* instantly reminded me of the E. Roosevelt quote as well.
I’ve always found that quote super annoying. It overemphasizes the individual at the expense of the systemic/communal.
By which I mean to say that people *can* make you feel inferior. And permission *can* be taken away from one without one’s permission. This can happen slowly or quickly, and more or less brutally, but it most certainly can and does happen. We have 30,000 children dying every day from what amounts to a lack of sufficient calories and clean water. They’ve been made to feel inferior, I’m thinking, and had certain permissions removed. This happens even to us.
I understand that the idea y’all are getting at is that we often have more choices than we realize. And of course this is true. But it’s also true that our choices are definitely limited by lots of things, including, often, by other people.
To get back to the original post, I would say, for instance, that growing up in the sect in which I grew up, I was denied permission to ask certain questions. Over time, I reached a point where I … regained that permission. But it didn’t happen in a day, and I couldn’t have done that all by myself. In fact it took a fairly radical process for me to regain that permission–a process that some in that sect have not had the opportunity to go through, or have gone through more gradually or perhaps more shallowly than I did. My permission was very much controlled by the group.
This is still true of course, to some extent. I can’t divorce myself from time and place, and thus I will always have blind spots, places where I’m simply unable to see or understand choices about how I think and how I act beyond a certain range of such choices which are possible from my where/when (21st century, the West, what have you).
Do I make sense?
Comment by: Jason Horton
32Bob, that does make sense but, for me, it is the same as living a good life with an example that you admire to motivate you. Practically I can see no difference. If we judge ourselves on the effectiveness of our strategies for life then I don’t suppose that it matters.
Benjamin, I would say that in this context the quote and the sentiment behind it are relevant. In another context I would agree with you, choice can certainly be taken away from someone. In the context of how you choose to interpret a bible or a teaching I’d say not. Such a thing would deny free will entirely.
In your example you say that you were denied permission to ask questions but later asked them anyway. You took control and did what you wanted with the aid of another. I don’t see this as someone else removing permission from you, not when you gained the power to assert it later.
Comment by: benjamin ady
33Jason,
And yet … I grew up in that sect, from a child. I guess in a sense the (ongoing) process of becoming an adult means becoming aware of permissions granted or denied, and choosing to stay with those, or not.
Are you familiar with the Stanford Prison experiment? or the Milgram Obedience experiment? It seems to me that we are all (or at least the very great majority of us) operating, to some degree, under permissions granted or denied of which we are not yet aware. We can look back and see the times we’ve become aware of such permissions, and either chosen to stay within their paradigm, or chosen to step outside it. And surely (hopefully?) we will continute to become aware of others, as we continue to grow as humans. but … much like Neo couldn’t exactly have escaped the Matrix alone, I’m guessing we won’t be able to continue to do that alone. Hence good friends and good conversations (and sometimes good therapists).
Surely those who help us become aware of such permissions and our ability to choose regarding them, then there are others (I think of my former pastor) who, wittingly or not, help to keep us ignorant of the permissions and unable to make choices regarding them. They would, in some sense, keep us children, keep us from growing. They *do* deny permission to many, in my opinion.
Let’s be permission givers! =)
Comment by: Bob
34Jason - It is a lot like that but to me it is much more. The difference is whether we approach it in our own strength or relying on God’s strength. When you try to do it on your own Christianity can devolve into a legalistic drudgery. Part of the freedom of Christianity is the joy of being able to say, I can’t do everything perfectly on my own but that’s ok. God has made a way for me. Of course the ultimate blessing of that relationship with Christ (and I don’t mean the quality of our faith or deeds — just simple acceptance and admitting our need) is an eternity in union and harmony with God. That is entirely apart from a standard role model relationship.
Benjamin — I hear what you’re saying. People do make decisions “in our best interests” that may not actually be. As a parent we have to think through these things pretty often. “you’re not old enough” “it’s too dangerous” “I’m just trying to protect you” types of things come to mind. As a child we can accept this to some degree, as an adult we find it dings our pride. Sometimes we may also find that it was to our benefit — just depends on who delivers it and the intentions with which they deliver it. People have good intentions a lot of the time but the logic and execution don’t go so well.
Not sure how old you are are but this has changed a bit for me as I age. In my 20’s I was seeking independence but still trying to please everyone. In my 30’s I was a little more relaxed but still self focused. In my 40’s I care less about what people think and more about the impact I have on them. I don’t need their permission but I need to be responsible and considerate in the way I live.
Comment by: Pops
35Elizabeth said:
I really like this!
Except for 2 words “Power Control”.
I think for any relationship to be truly ‘correct’ especially in the context of a super duper being like we say God is, then it is not about power or control but about humility and sharing - relationship!
My wife and I do not have a happy marriage because of power and control, no matter how this may be equally apportioned. Our marriage is great because of humility and sharing.
Perhaps this is what God really seeks in His relationship with us?
That is perhaps why He brought the animals to Adam to name and He didn’t just go ahead and tell Adam what they should be called?
Comment by: Jason Horton
36Benjamin, in the Milgram experiment it was shown that people tended to obey an authority figure. We’re wired to defer decisions to others who have authority over us. We still have the ability to refuse to undertake actions dictated to us. Indeed in the Milgram experiment the subjects usually do refuse eventually. Granted it’s far too late but they still act autonomously in the end.
I agree with the sentiment that we should be permission givers. That’s why I enjoy questioning and encourage questions from others. Sometimes it is more important to ask “What do you think?” than to give an answer. Sometimes the answer isn’t even important but how we arrive at it is the greater part.
Bob said:
It’s a fine sentiment to accept your limitations and to seek help but isn’t that same help available from family, peers or leaders in your community? I’m saying that supernatural assistance isn’t needed to accept yourself as you are and to grow from within.
Comment by: Elizabeth Chapin
37Benjamin, I haven’t been ignoring you and I hear what you have to say about injustice and such - especially regarding children. Sure, I try teach my kids to not let bullies make them feel badly about themselves, and this is so small a task compared to places where bullies run the country and starve the people.
And you rightly bring up the point of the post, and I have been influenced by some of the same thinking as you. I did not grow up in a “Christian” home though we did attend church and my dad was abusive and controlling. I won’t go into all the gory details here, but I’ve definitely had my share of issues to work through.
And Pops, I agree relationship is about sharing and humility, but even in humility you can’t avoid the ideas of power and control. Though we have many negative connotations associated with those words and may want to avoid using them, I still like the idea of shared control especially when it is the one who is all powerful who is doing the sharing.
And back at Benjamin on the Roosevelt quote, I think one of the points of that quote is to remind us that people may have power over us by virtue of their strength, position, relationship, etc. but we ultimately have power over what we think and believe about ourselves and the world around us. That is why sects like the one you describe work so hard to control our thinking. And I believe this is one of the root causes of the problems we experience today in Christianity - when Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the state and it no longer became a choice - we lost a core value of what it means to be Christian - to be free to choose to follow Christ. The gospels say Jesus came to set people free from oppression
But yet the Roman government was not overthrown. Is there some way to freedom from oppression even in the midst of those who seek to control and have power over others? I choose to believe the Way of Jesus is that freedom and yes, it is not just an individual issue but a communal and societal issue. And when those who proclaim to be heralds of this good news that Jesus speaks of yet, they are the ones doing the oppressing, this is a great tragedy.
Comment by: Bob
38Jason said:
I understand your point, for me it goes back to the nature of Christ and who I think he really is. If I just think he’s a nice guy with some good ideas then yes, that works fine. If I really believe he is who he said he is, divine, son of God, I am — then it’s going to take some supernatural interaction for me to make the connection and kinds of changes I need to make, because they involve discerning his will and vision for my life. I’ve tried to do this in my own strength without realizing it before and it’s frustrating. But if I am patient in listening God will teach me things or encourage me at really interesting times in different ways. Sometimes in prayer or study, sometimes life lessons, and sometimes through other people. Often in the most difficult moments peace comes when I most desperately need it and I am grateful. That’s not a natural reaction for me. So for me I do need that supernatural part of the equation. Does that make sense?
Comment by: benjamin ady
39Elizabeth,
I’m sorry about the stuff with your dad.
You spoke of “being free to follow Christ.” I have two questions about that. I’m wondering what that means for you, and I’m wondering if you have any thoughts about how what that means is affected by culture/time/place.
Comment by: Jason Horton
40Bob, it does but I could also point to a change in attitude towards calm and contemplation as the cause. Not that it matters really if the end result is your own betterment and the betterment of others.
Comment by: Bob
41Jason - It may be something you have to experience in your own way for the difference to be tangible to you. I can only speak of my own experiences.
While this may be a common result the motivation comes from a different place. One come from the urge to do things indepedently of God and the other comes from a position of gratitude to and service to God. There is a difference between serving other to feel good about ourselves and serving others because it is obedient and pleasing to God. Undeniably there is the benefit of feeling good about doing something good either way.
I understand we may not share the same beliefs so some of this may seem weird to you. I’m trying to think of a non-religious analogy.
Imagine you’re an orphan and you were adopted by a family and an early age. They give you love, sustenance, and opportunity to live a life that you otherwise would not have had. They pass on and leave you a small fortune.
You go out into the world and begin to make large donations, in your own name, to charities without ever acknowledging that you would have none of the money to give without your family. You give them no credit and bask in the glow of being revered for your generosity.
You feel good, people are being helped, but something is missing. That something is gratitude and credit where credit is due.
That’s how I look at it with God. This body, this life, all of it is a gift from God. I’m just borrowing it and hopefully taking good care of it. I’m misleading myself if I think it’s me alone that is sufficient, so I need to act out of gratitude and remember where the good things come from.