Posted by Helen on: 07.14.2008 /
I was delightfully surprised by Brian McLaren’s new book Finding Our Way Again: the return of the ancient practices.
I expected it to be a book mostly about some ancient (Christian) practices I wasn’t interested in. Because of that I wasn’t planning to read it at all until Jim (Henderson) said he thought I’d like it a couple of weeks ago.
I took a quick look on Amazon ‘search inside’ and liked what I saw enough to go out and buy the book the next day.
This book is not just about ancient practices. It’s a poetically described vision of Christianity. Christianity as a way of life, not just a system of beliefs. A way including spiritual practices which develop character and lead people into an intentional, perceptive, attentive way of living. Who then join God in helping the world and other people be all he intends it to be.
Reading these things excited me and gave me hope. I felt like – this is what was missing from the way I was taught Christianity: an emphasis on character, on appreciation of this life and on Christians making this world a better place for God’s sake. It’s very encouraging to me finding a book which expresses this so clearly.
I was intrigued that Brian focused on Christianity being a way since my newspaper dialog with a retired minister has evolved into being about the Way we both want to follow, even though he’s a Christian and I’m almost an atheist. Brian points out how often Paul refers to Christianity as a way, for example in 1 Cor 14:1 “follow the way of love” (TNIV). And Brian shows the frequent use of the “walk metaphor” in the New Testament (which some newer translations have unfortunately obscured). I enjoyed that because I’d noticed it too back in my Bible studying days.
Brian is in his element in this sort of writing. I love his use of poetry and imagination to go way beyond the limited territory neat precise systematic theology can cover. I suppose Brian’s ‘loyal critics’ (as he likes to call them) might find things to take issue with in here but I can’t think of much they’d disagree with since this is not a book which pushes the limits on their doctrine. It’s more a work of art calling Christians to a deeper Christian walk.
Since the book is about the value of ancient spiritual practices, Brian describes, partly through story, the ancient threefold path. First, fasting helps people learn how strong the pull of pleasure is – because it’s so good, not because it’s bad. Second, illumination – the light of God helps people see clearly. Third, joining with God – becoming ‘infected with him’ – enables people to carry health and vitality to the rest of the world.
I smiled as Brian’s described his imaginary abbess who explains the threefold path because I couldn’t help thinking of Yoda.. Very wise, a wrinkled old face, slightly hunched with a walking stick, more agile than you’d expect someone that age. Who else could that be but Yoda in a nun’s habit? Fortunately for readers, book in this Yoda in backwards sentences doesn’t speak.
The book is full of wonderful statements and phrases. One of my favorites: Brian suggests a faith community ought to be a group of people who are ‘open sources of embodied practices for one another”.
As Brian describes where Christianity has lost its way he covers some very serious problems. However his gentle spirit and kindness prevents this becoming an excuse to name names or point fingers. And he moves quickly onto reasons for hoping things can be different.
This would be way too long if I mentioned everything I like about this book. If you want to read something beautiful about what Christianity was always meant to be, what it could be if Christians get back to practicing it as a way of life – and some thoughts on where to start - pick up this book. Let me know what you think. I hope you like it as much as I do.
Comment by: Jeremy Myers
1 07/14/08 8:24 AM | Comment Link |Thanks for the review! I will go pick up this book and read it.
Comment by: Jonathan Brink
2 07/14/08 8:47 AM | Comment Link |Helen, unfortunately Brian has permanent critics. If he said follow Jesus, they’d wonder what he meant by follow.
Comment by: Randy
3 07/14/08 11:35 AM | Comment Link |I could use a hopeful book on Christianity right now…thanks for the recommendation!
Comment by: Jim Henderson
4 07/14/08 4:39 PM | Comment Link |Helen and Brian are two friends I had the privilege of introducing.
I knew Brian would be impressed with Helens ex-insider/non reactive outsider point of view and…
I hoped she would discover that Brian is one of the kindest Christian leaders on the planet.
So far so good
Comment by: Pops
5 07/15/08 3:39 AM | Comment Link |Can I ask a dumb question?
In any of these ‘Ancient practices’ is there any mention of reading as many books as possible?
I am going to raise an old bug bear of mine:
“Christians” (and yes I am generalising here) spend an absolute fortune on chasing as much knowledge and information as they can - to what end?
I challenged our group a little while ago with this:
For every book or magazine that you purchase, even newspaper, I challenge you to donate the equivalent amount to someone like Wycliffe Bible Translators, Bible Society etc. so that they can fund the translation and printing of Bibles into languages that as yet do not even have one single verse of the scriptures in their own language!
I am passing on that challenge here.
We Christians say so many things about the Bible, how informative it is, how much teaching it gives, how much guidance etc. but then, by our actions, we spend more money on newspapers, magazines, other peoples interpretations and opinions on the Bible and still there are hundreds of language groups that have no clue what even one verse of scripture in their own language, looks like!
You got the balls to meet the challenge?
Lots of politeness!
Pops
Comment by: joe
6 07/15/08 3:46 AM | Comment Link |Pops, because if God is truth, then seeking after truth is seeking after God.
Comment by: Pops
7 07/15/08 1:15 PM | Comment Link |Hi Joe
Not necessarily so!
If God is truth then seeking God is seeking truth - big difference.
Comment by: joe
8 07/15/08 11:14 PM | Comment Link |Well, I don’t agree with you.
Fortunately scientists have through the ages have also when others have told them to stop thinking and read the bible.
Comment by: Helen
9 07/16/08 5:33 AM | Comment Link |Pops wrote:
I don’t think that’s fair - what if people simply disagree with your priorities?
(And by the way, if it’s not fair it’s not polite either, though I doubt you intended any disrespect - I think maybe your enthusiasm for your project accidentally led you outside the respect boundaries)
Suppose someone said to you “Do you have the balls to admit God doesn’t exist?” - would that be a fair question?
Just because someone disagrees with you it doesn’t make them a coward.
Comment by: David H
10 07/16/08 10:07 AM | Comment Link |Perhaps it’s just me, but the world doesn’t seem to need more copies of the Bible. It seems to need more copies of Jesus — even if they are printed badly on poor stock.
Comment by: Helen
11 07/16/08 4:47 PM | Comment Link |Thanks David - excellent point!
Comment by: Jim Henderson
12 07/16/08 5:14 PM | Comment Link |David
May I steal that line from you for a future book. I’ll give you credit?
Comment by: David H
13 07/16/08 9:21 PM | Comment Link |Steal away.
Comment by: Pops
14 07/17/08 9:23 AM | Comment Link |Hi Joe,
If I pursue the truth on the correct manner in which to grow marigolds, does that lead me to God?
Perhaps it hinges on what you perceive as seeking truth and maybe I am misunderstanding you here?
Hi Helen,
Fair comment - it is my challenge to people, if people don’t accept the challenge it does not reduce their stature in any way. And no it was not meant as a rude comment - sorry if it came over that way.
Hi David,
The english speaking world definitely does not need any more bibles - 100% agreed, but if you read my post you will see that I mention the FACT that there are still 100’s of language groups that do not have even ONE verse of scripture in their own language, not even badly printed on bad stock, NOTHING, NADA, ZILCH!!!! - surely they deserve a bible?
Comment by: Elizabeth Chapin
15 07/17/08 9:45 AM | Comment Link |David, I too love that idea! YES! We need more copies of Jesus!!!
Pops, I wonder, did Jesus say - go and make copies of the Bible and distribute them into all the world so it will teach them all that I have taught you? Perhaps, we forget that Jesus is the Word - not the printed collection of books we have chosen to call the Bible. Surely, all people deserve a credible witness to Jesus as the revelation of God among us, but do they all deserve a Bible when some don’t have food to eat, clean water to drink…
Comment by: Pops
16 07/17/08 11:59 AM | Comment Link |Hi Elizabeth
Let me put this in perspective here.
These translators do not go for a fortnight but for many many years. They first build up relationships with the folk they go to.
We need to understand that the majority of these people groups they go to do not have any form of written language and so that must first be mastered. After they have learnt the language of course, which in itself takes years.
They often go in as medical, social, practical workers and they do not go in just to preach a message.
They give up their lives, their home comforts, their families, their friends, their culture etc. all for the sake of letting other people hear the good news.
Jesus did say “Go into all the world and make disciples of all nations”!
Tell me, who does not deserve a Bible? Who should have to read a Bible in a foreign language?
Even in Jesus time there were people who did not have food to eat, water to drink……. the poor you will always have with you…but still He said “Go and make disciples”.
We can not exclude feeding, supplying water etc for the sake of Bible translation (I wonder which is more important?) BUT we somehow justify spending money, (lots and lots of money) on books that are merely peoples opinions of the Bible.
Am I against books? No, all I am saying is I think we should get some balance.
Comment by: Pops
17 07/17/08 12:13 PM | Comment Link |From Wycliffe Bible Translators http://www.wycliffe.org
In 1999, translation projects started at a pace of about one every 18 days. At that rate it would have taken until 2150 before the last translation project was even begun.
Wycliffe leaders challenged the Body of Christ to accelerate the pace. Vision 2025 was born. The goal? To see a Bible translation program in progress in every language still needing one by the year 2025.
The ultimate goal—God’s Word accessible to all people, so that everyone has an opportunity to have an intimate and life changing relationship with Jesus Christ.
Comment by: David H
18 07/17/08 2:59 PM | Comment Link |I can’t help but think of the passage in Matthew where Jesus spoke of separating the goats and the sheep. Let me pharaphrase:
Will the person who does that be sent to stand with the sheep or the goats?
People in poorer countries deserve many things. Being treated like human beings might be the least they deserve. I’m not sure where the Bible should fall on the need scale because in my experience it is something of a luxury. Time and energy to learn to read were non-existent in the villages I visited in Central America. The process of translation etc. can lead to things such as education, which may have a tangible benefit to the recipients, but the book itself won’t help you feed your family. Yeah, I know, man doesn’t live by bread alone, but he is pretty much dead if it isn’t part of the deal.
Those in the third world may see the whole Bible deal in these terms: if you give a man a fish he will feed himself for a day. If you teach him how to fish he will feed himself forever. If you just give him a book about cooking fish, he may decide you’re a callous SOB who is taunting him while he starves.
Comment by: Elizabeth Chapin
19 07/17/08 4:06 PM | Comment Link |Hi Pops, I understand your point about balance - spending so much time reading Christian “self-help” books that we neglect other Christian duties, but your strong emphasis on taking the Bible to unreached peoples reminds me of a concern that I have with the modern church putting too much emphasis on “the power of the Scriptures” to convert people over living a life of faith and allowing the living Word, Jesus, and his life lived in and through us to provide the credible witness by which people come to see and know Christ.
You assumed I was uninformed about Wycliffe - one of my best friends has been on the field with them for years and I even considered joining their efforts at one time in my life. I am not criticizing the life changing methods of the people who go to work in the field as translators, but I am convinced it is the example of how the translators live according to the way of Jesus that makes more of an impact on the society than the final product of the translation work itself. I also find that most missionaries I know personally practice Christianity much differently than most westerners and probably more like the way of Jesus Brian McLaren describes in his book (though I have yet to read it I have heard Brian speak on this topic).
I think we run into dangerous territory when we minimize the power of the Word to the printed page, or when we ascribe special powers to that printed page as if the only way a society can find out about Jesus is if they have a printed copy of specific books of the Bible (I’m not saying you are doing this, your comment just brought this to mind.) Missionary work went on for centuries before the printing press was invented. And since the invention of the printing press, perhaps we have forgotten some of the ancient ways McLaren writes about and we would do well to spend a few dollars reading such books and putting those things into practice so when we encounter people who say they like Jesus but not the church, they will not find such a discrepancy between the Jesus they read about and the “copies of Jesus” they meet today.
Comment by: Helen
20 07/17/08 7:37 PM | Comment Link |Pops wrote:
Thanks Pops.
Comment by: Pops
21 07/18/08 1:05 AM | Comment Link |Hi David and Elizabeth!
I do not think we are on a different page here at all. I think it may just be a communication issue via this mode of communication.
Yes, lifestyle is of utmost importance and I am a firm believer in “What on earth did the early guys do before the printed word came out?
Was God not able to use them without it?”
To which of course the answer is a resounding “Yes! God did use them without the printed word.”
I also think that an error has crept in where people are told to look to the Word of God instead of The God of the Word!
Yes Elizabeth, I am just looking for balance against what I see as an inordinate amount of “Hey, you must buy this book, you must read this one …. ” and is it not strange that when I raise the issue of rather doing Bibles, a number of people are up in arms, yet I get the distinct impression that if I had said “Let’s get more books out”, I think I would have a lot of support - that is the impression I get!
Whenever a new book is promoted, no one says “Hey, donate the same amount of money to a Feeding scheme in addition to buyng that book!” or is that impression just mine?
I also get (personal experience) the attitude of, “Oh dear Pops, you haven’t read this book have you, this would really enlighten you” - sort of condescending attitude toward me.
Yes David there is that scripture from Matthew, but fat, well watered people also go to hell in a handbasket!
Let me ask this: Is the overall message of the Bible/Christianity to teach people to fish or to get them right with God?
I reiterate, I am not saying do the one and exclude the other, but what is the most important message/theme of scripture?
Comment by: Helen
22 07/18/08 5:15 AM | Comment Link |Pops, here’s where I agree with you: it’s easier to read a book than to get out of my comfort zone and do something that helps others. It seems like in general there is too much book reading and not enough doing.
However, what I’m saying about this book is, I think it will help people understand the Bible.
Isn’t that important? What’s the use of a Bible you can’t understand, that doesn’t lead you in the right direction anyway, because you don’t understand what it means?
If the Bible is so extremely important then surely whatever helps people understand it must be important too. If I give you a map and you rush off in the wrong direction because you didn’t understand how to read it how have I helped you?
People who are talking about the importance of role-modelling and being Jesus are in effect emphasizing the importance of one way to understand the Bible. Being Jesus is saying “this is what what’s in that book looks like”.
I had a CT scan a week ago and they asked me if I wanted the results on CD so I said yes. It’s interesting to look at but I have no clue what it means. It could say I’m perfectly healthy or deathly ill and I wouldn’t know the difference.
There are too many mean Christians around for me to be feel confident that it works to just hand out Bibles and say “Read and follow!”
If it worked then I think we’d all be agreeing with you that it’s all about how hands you can get Bibles into. Or, if that’s not what you’re saying, I apologize for misconstruing your position.
And I’m sorry people have looked down on you for not reading more books. That’s not appropriate - read them if you need to, otherwise, why read them? Why not be out there doing things that help others instead?
Comment by: David H
23 07/18/08 10:04 AM | Comment Link |I have had more than one bad experience with the Bible as some here already know. The Bible was used as a goad to keep my mother in a marriage with a man who destroyed her and his children to the best of his ability. In the best of possible worlds I would wish the people wielding the Bible against my mother had a different understanding of what it was telling them to do. Short of that, I would wish that my mother had not put so much faith in men who claimed to know the Bible. In the end, were I to choose between my childhood with the Bible and a childhood without it, I would go without. Most of the good I have found in Christianity came from relationships with other Christians, not from the Bible.
When I was in Central America almost 30 years ago I spoke with an ex-translator for CAM International. He had gone to Guatemala decades before I arrived to translate the Bible into a language that did not exist for a tribe few had ever heard of. He worked for years creating a written language, teaching the people of the village to read and write, then produced a Bible he felt would be useful and understandable for them. However, he translated ‘lamb of God’ to ‘chicken of God’ in the New Testament. The people of that village had no sheep or goats. Sacrificial animals, for them, were chickens. When his superiors at CAM discovered this, he was removed from his position and his translation of the Bible was discarded. He was allowed to remain as a missionary, but he was not permitted to translate the Bible again. It isn’t hard for me to believe that the people of that village, that tribe would have done just as well — maybe better — in their understanding of Christ-likeness without the Bible.
While I was in Honduras during that same time frame, I visited Christian bookstore set up and run by CAM. While there I overheard the manager telling a local person that he only carried two versions of the Bible — King James and Revised Standard Version. The RSV, I discovered later, was a recent addition because Charles Ryrie, dean of Dallas Theological Seminary and a CAM board member, had just released an RSV study Bible. The manager told the person those two versions of the Bible were the only one inspired by God, all others came from Satan to cause confusion and sow dissension. I left there wondering if that entire Bible book store was doing anything toward the purposes of Jesus.
I have lived my entire life around people who make all sorts of claims about the Bible. Many of them lived lives that didn’t show Jesus to me or others. Some of them (like my father) did a great job of looking like a follower of the Book, but they didn’t seem to want to be like Jesus. None of this even goes to the evil I have seen done with dogmatic interpretation of the Bible.
I think there is much usefulness to books that help give understanding of the Bible and the work/life of Jesus. However, after centuries of misuse, I’m not sure how healthy it is to simply hand out Bibles to people as if that will make everything clear or better. If I had to choose between the Bible without any other books or having no books at all, I’m going with the latter. If I am a follower of Jesus, my life is the word.
Comment by: Pops
24 07/20/08 11:25 PM | Comment Link |Morning all!
Gotcha! Now, after some background, for which I thank you David, I understand your base of reference here - we are on the same page!
Lots of love!
Pops
Comment by: Elizabeth Chapin
25 07/21/08 10:35 AM | Comment Link |Hello again,
Pops, you commented,
Recently, most conferences, book tours, and concerts I’ve been too have also promoted sponsoring children through Compassion or World Vision, etc. - encouraging people to give even more than they are spending on books, music etc.
So, my impression is much different than yours, it seems.
Comment by: Pops
26 07/22/08 11:39 PM | Comment Link |Hi Elizabeth!
Well that is fantastic to hear and if that is hapening go out and buy as many books as you can!!!!
Comment by: marion
27 08/4/08 11:19 PM | Comment Link |many Christian books are ‘teaching’ for Christians…
Ephesians 4:11 - God has given teachers to His church.
’sermons on Sunday’s’ - once a week, are not enough for many Christians who want to grow.
remember, the early Christians did not have the N.T. - only some of it’s letters [after a while] - but they did have the Holy Spirit teaching them through fellow Christians..
The bible needs teaching/unpacking…yes, much can be read simply and is straightforward - but much needs balanced teaching from mature and studious Christians…
sadly many do not have that [in reality - even if they 'go' to church], and end up in wacko and unbalanced theology…they are usually the ones who say that the bible doesn’t need interpreting - ‘it means what it says,’ [they mean, sadly, in a black and white way without much thought or meditation on it, or deep study]. But what did Peter say about some of the stuff Paul wrote?
He said, it was ‘hard to understand’ and unstable people misunderstand and twist it…[even then]…
Comment by: Reviews of Major Books on the Emerging Church « Kaiblogy
28 08/12/08 2:06 PM | Comment Link |[...] Helen Mildenhal, “Conversation at the Edge,” Blog, Conversation at the Edge, http://conversationattheedge.com/2008/07/14/finding-our-way-again-by-brian-mclaren/. [...]
Comment by: Helen
29 08/13/08 5:32 AM | Comment Link |Marion, I guess my main thought is, it’s important for people to use discernment and never unthinkingly accept something just because someone else puts God’s name on it. Whatever may be the case about God, no human is infallible. Everything that is claimed to be from God is somehow mediated through fallible humans, so there’s a possibility of mistakes and misunderstanding even if God is infallible.
Comment by: marion
30 09/20/08 7:34 AM | Comment Link |Helen, we are in agreement.
Did I say something that seemed not to be? I guess I was responding the the post that asked if ancient practices required reading lots of Christian books…but there is no ability to click on ‘quote’ in the post we want to quote on Blogs like this.
[I know we can do it manually, but it's time consuming...am more used to phpbb forums]
Comment by: marion
31 09/20/08 7:36 AM | Comment Link |re. Brian McLaren, I found the recent online videos that Off the Map posted of his, extremely helpful…
there was a series of 3 and one of 4 [forgotten the titles now :-)]
Comment by: Helen
32 09/20/08 9:17 AM | Comment Link |Thanks Marion - I’m glad you liked the videos!
We don’t have the same quote functions as some bulletin boards - you’re right. What you can do is copy and paste the other person’s comment into your comment box, and you can choose sections in your comment box, highlight them with the mouse, then click ‘bquote’ above the comment box and it will format them as a quote.
Comment by: marion
33 09/20/08 1:03 PM | Comment Link |yes, thank you. I tried that for the first time today - and was glad to find a quote function, as many Blogs don’t have a toolbar or anything.
[Sorry, I am old, I think, only just getting used to Blogs and very basic html :)].
it was just that I had to scroll back to double-check the name of who I was quoting and the post number, as my tired brain could not remember
lol