Posted by Helen on: 10.09.2008 /
A couple of years ago Gregg posted the Barrington Bunny story on here. Yesterday Elizabeth posted this comment about it.
Almost 2 years later, and I’m just today finding this blog. Is anyone still there?
I first heard the story of Barrington back in the 70’s when I was a teen at a Presbyterian church camp. It was read around a campfire, and male or female, there wasn’t a dry eye among us. This story has been with me ever since. I do believe that the best audience is our youth, who tend not to be terribly analytical, and more accepting of what ever truth they glean for themselves from the story.
The church I attend presently has just approved in council that we will be doing a function called “Everyone is Welcomed at God’s Table”, wherein we are feeding soup to anyone who wants it, rich, poor or what ever. The last line of the invitation is: It’s a gift. A free gift. With no strings attached.
In living by those particular words from the story, it isn’t about self sacrifice anymore, but the incredible feeling of freedom in doing for the least of the bretheren and doing for God. And to carry it a step further, “the least of the bretheren” doesn’t always mean the poorest or most destitute. The richest & most affluent people on earth, in the eyes of God, can be the absolute least of these My bretheren.
Thanks for this opportunity.
Comment by: Helen
1Thanks for your comment, Elizabeth. I like the idea of free gifts with no strings attached and I prefer the emphasis to be on that rather than self-sacrifice.
In the Christian world view the ultimate self-sacrifice (giving up one’s life for another) is actually only moving onto another, better life. But if this life is all that there is - which as far as I know may be the case - the ultimate self-sacrifice is truly giving up everything. It’s a choice a person has the right to make (in some circumstances) but it should be an informed choice and not something they are emotionally manipulated into.
Just to be clear: apart from the ultimate self sacrifice I think it’s good when those of us who have plenty share it with others who have less - especially those who have great needs.
Comment by: Bob
2Helen — Can you clarify this?
If the kingdom of heaven is here and now then we are helping build it here and now out of love for God. The result matters, not just the afterlife. The better life starts now.
Emotion in and of itself isn’t bad, sometimes it is the result of a long needed examination of conscience –regardless of your belief in God. Logic can be manipulated too, so voiding emotion from every introspection is not a guarantee of an un-manipulated viewpoint. Intellectual bullying is just as wrong.
With logic or emotion you need to inspect the validity and make determination using both. I don’t think you’re implying that every christian is emotionally manipulated into their beliefs but if you are you need to give people a little more credit.
We agree that self-sacrifice is important. Probably for a lot of the same practical reasons, in terms of who it’s for and why we should do it, probably not. Either way I’m glad it happens.
Elizabeth, I’m glad you shared your story and I hope you keep that joy close to your heart. It’s a beautiful thing. Thanks.
Comment by: gecko
3Yep-it’s very important to help others. We as a couple and as single persons did that a lot, in big and small ways. We didn’t do any accounting, and we have forgottem most of what we did for whom. We figured that the church was one family, and if everybody or almost everybody gives in his or her talents, somehow all the needs are met. We did that for about ten years and had a good life doing so and we really liked it.
But then a time came, when we ourselves needed help. We were awaiting our third child, having health problems both of us and a house that needed some work, and all of a sudden we were all alone. Some wanted to help, but only if we gave them some money, but there was none left after buying the house. So they didn’t help. We were left exhausted, burned out and heartbroken. It’s a hard lesson when you learn who your real friends are!
As a result we stopped helping. We worked only for our own projects and spent time only with real friends and family. And this was a very, very good time in our lives, too. Now, as our youngest is almost four years old, our strength is almost back in full and the financial situation is not so tight anymore, we started helping again. But now we are looking very closely at whom we help how. And we’re not helping to keep up structures that would die without our time and strength. So whom do we help? Anybody who really needs help, be it the least or the best. And our help really must make a difference for him or her. Standing together whining is useless and only steals strenght.
From this point of wiew Barrington Bunny shouldn’t have waisted his strength to help the beavers and the squirrels who were quite comfortable without him. Then he would have had enough energy left to save this little mouse and himself, by bringing this little one to a warmer or at least a better sheltered place, for example. Or he would have been able to survive until the storm was over or the wolf was back with more advice…
Comment by: Helen
4Bob wrote:
When the better life begins doesn’t really affect the distinction I was trying to make - which is that atheists who sacrifice their life give up everything because nothing will follow, whereas Christians who ‘give up their lives’ are only giving up this particular phase of existence since they believe they will live on after death.
Right - I wasn’t implying that.
Comment by: Helen
5gecko, I agree - I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being careful how much you help so that you don’t end up giving away what you needed for your own survival.
I’d probably prefer a story like that to a story in which the helper died. Especially since as I said, for an atheist death is not the same choice as it is for a Christian who believes they live on after death.
Comment by: Bob
6Helen — Okay, thanks. So you weren’t really commenting on the quality of acts relevant to motivation, just the perception of the person acting.
Gecko - I’ve have experienced some of that feeling too. You do get a sense of who’s really there for you when you’re in trouble. Those who act versus those who “care”. I’m not sure I agree with your assessment on the bunny story though. It’s hard to know which person you may have helped more in the long run. Maybe one of the smaller gestures will ultimately bear more fruit. Sometime we think we’re making the grand gesture but it’s the one we barely know we made the resonates with someone.
We do have to consider ourselves sometimes too though. People will take advantage without setting out to do so. I’d be lying if I said I never felt burnt or resentful over helping someone that didn’t seem to appreciate it or took advantage. But that’s my choice, I can either feel good about doing the best I could, or I can keep score and feel sorry for myself. I’ve done both, I’m working on just trying to enjoy the positive.
Comment by: Helen
7Bob wrote:
I wasn’t saying Christian acts are of less value than atheist ones. I was saying dying for another is a different choice for atheists, because death ends everything for them, whereas for Christians it simply changes their existence somewhat and in ways that can only improve it.
The perception of the person acting, as you referred to it, is the truth as they best understand it to be, and makes a significant difference in what the personal consequences of dying for another are.
Comment by: Bob
8Helen wrote
But in a sense, in some people’s perception, the atheist is giving up more and the christian is cashing a check. I guess it could be a matter of the observers perception too, not just the one acting. For example a self-sacrifice for ideals that one person finds repugnant and another person finds noble. That’s kind of interesting, does our opinion matter, or is it ultimately whatever the person perceives their reward/sacrifice to be?
Comment by: Helen
9Bob wrote:
Exactly.
Yes, I can imagine the response of observers varying in that way.
I think people need to take responsibility for their own choices. If their choice is to do what will impress observers I suppose that’s up to them.
Comment by: Bob
10I think you know I don’t subscribe to the cashing a check perspective, I just was looking at if from someone else’s point of view.
If you hold to either there’s not an afterlife or there is, the sacrifice is equal. If there’s none, both people just gave up their one and only life, if there is both people just entered the afterlife. Whether knowingly or not both people made the same transaction. If you believe in hell that isn’t a good proposition for some but either person isn’t terminating their existence upon death.
We tend to judge people’s motives whether they take responsibility or not, but we really have no way of knowing whether their motives are pure or not. Sometimes I wonder if we can really have a pure motive at all. We try to do the right thing for what we think are the right reasons. You’d like to think people do things out of love for God and not fear of hell. Some probably do, for some it’s a mix, for some maybe not. I think if we’re honest with ourselves we realize our motives are more complicated than we’d like to admit.
So, let me ask you, would you sacrifice your life for the benefit of others and if so why?
Comment by: Helen
11Bob wrote:
I understand what you’re saying but that’s not what I’m talking about.
I’m saying that dying for someone is a huge sacrifice for an atheist to contemplate because it’s the end of everything from their perspective; whereas it’s not such a huge sacrifice for a Christian who believes they will live on.
Do you agree that dying for someone else is less of a big deal for a Christian than an atheist because of their beliefs? I’m not talking about what turns out to happen to them but what they believe they are giving up.
On the whole, no, I don’t think I would. Maybe if I was in a situation where my life could save the life of one of my children I would. Otherwise I don’t think I would.
As a Christian I was supposed to be willing to give up my life for Jesus’ sake, right? It was never put to the test whether I would actually go that far or not. So who knows if I would have.
Would you sacrifice your life for the benefit of others? If not, why not, since doing so will usher you into Jesus’ presence forever? (If that sounds confrontational it wasn’t meant to - I do wonder about the perspective of Christians on these issues)
Comment by: Bob
12Helen - I do understand what you mean. Relative to what we think we’re giving up it’s quite different. But even though I believe in an afterlife it’s still a frightening thought to die. Just the experience and the potential for pain. Philosophically it is different, even if the result can be equalized it’s still alot about what we think we’re giving up.
Honestly it’s hard to know unless you’re there and in the situation. I think if you do you’ve got to go into it with an unconditional love mindset like Christ did. Not whether or not one person is worthy of saving and the other isn’t. The things you mention, my children or my wife, that’s a lot easier than a stranger. Maybe I’m too much of a coward to do it for anyone else, or maybe I’d be able to. I don’t know. If I failed to do it it would be because I lack the courage, or am too selfish.
Would I like to leave this world and enter into a better one? Sometimes I sure would — I look forward to that peace. But I’m still clinging to this world too, I think there’s things God wants me to figure out in this life before I move on.
BTW It didn’t sound confrontational, I know it was a tough question to put out there and I wouldn’t ask it if I wasn’t willing to answer. I just appreciate hearing what you think about these sort of things.
Let me throw one more thing at you. When Jesus says “greater love has not the man who lays down his life for his brother” my interpretation (emphasis on my) may not be the same as someone else’s. I don’t think it’s just referring to physical death. We lay down a little bit of our lives with every unselfish act. When we deny ourselves for the good of others. Gestures big and small for the kingdom of God. When we put God first, we are laying down our lives and taking up part of his. That’s a beautiful and freeing thing, not a gaggle of methodical religious hoops to jump through. I may not have the courage to lay it all down at once, but I’m still laying it down bit by bit. That’s no less important. I can’t be exactly like Christ, but I can be more like him over the course of time.
Comment by: Helen
13That would never be the issue for me - who can make those decisions? It’s more whether this is a person I personally care about enough to exchange my life for theirs.
Couldn’t it also be because you don’t see why their life matters more than yours?
I agree that small doable acts done on behalf of others count as well as huge sacrifices. Off The Map refers to them as ‘otherlyness’. Otherlyness has been the focus of Off The Map from the beginning and will continue to be in the future.
I’m leaving for Denver today so I might not be able to comment again for a couple of days.
Comment by: gecko
14Hi - being on a holiday in the mountains, I’m not able to write everyday, sorry. What I meant is, that the ant-heap principle is not working, not even in church.There are always people who invest more and others who take more, and both sometimes at shocking rates. Helping means always giving away ones own time, sacrificing an evening, a week or just hours. What I mean is, that I’m not ready anymore to sacrifice a portion of my life to somebody who only takes, just to make their life more agreable. Very often they could do something themselves, but other things are more important to them - so why should I? One of our questions is: Is work for Church or for other believers always for free? Or are we entitled to wages, as we do a good job and the money is there? I refer to translating, cleaning, handycrafts etc. All work that can be done well by a lot of companies, believers or not.
Comment by: Bob
15Gecko — Believe me when I say I understand your frustration at having been burned. It’s happened to me too, investing time and energy in people only to have them dissappear or just use me. But isn’t this what we do to God all the time? Please forgive me God, while I hold a grudge against someone else. God please bless me with this even though I routinely forget to thank you for all the blessings I take for granted. God I need this, God I need that. Am I worthy of all the things I ask from God? Am I worthy of all that God has given me? Hardly. I can’t speak for you but I can certainly admit this about myself.
What if God decided to enact the same principle? How do we judge who’s worthy and not? We can’t. God could and we’d most likely not make the cut. If all our righteousness is like filthy rags then what are our odds?
Now, I’m not saying to intentionally let people use your or take advantage of you. But I am saying it’s hard to know who’s intentionally doing that versus someone who is in need but also consumed by their self preservation and needs to the point where they are not very gracious. Even though if feels like it didn’t work, perhaps you are planting seeds of change or the chance for that person to have the courage to bless someone else down the road. You’ve done the right thing regardless of the outcome. Unless it’s clear they are using you to enable them in unhealthy ways. I think we’ve got to pray about and see how we feel led in each case.
Maybe the solution, if this is where you feel you’re being led, is to focus on non-financial service for a while. Give your ear, your time, your encouragement instead of your money and see how that goes.
To answer your other question, I think there are situations where one can be paid for church work. I’m hesitant to enter into those because I think there are a lot of strings attached. Do you have any specific area you were thinking of?
Comment by: Bob
16Helen wrote:
That’s what I mean, you can’t make those kind of decisions, so if you were able to sacrifice for someone you didn’t know it would have to be unconditional. Regarding the ones we love you’re right, it’s an obvious proposition versus and unknown one. Much simpler.
I’ve looked at off the map and enjoyed some of the stories. I’ve been pondering coordinated efforts of the same nature. When you get back from Denver maybe I’ll run some ideas by you. Have a safe and great trip!
Comment by: Seren
17I’ve just spent a week on placement at a drug and alcohol community service and i’ve decided that the Barrington story would be a great community services 101 tool.
The first thing we all need to learn is that you can’t do anyone much good if you can’t look after yourself.
xx s.
Comment by: gecko
18Hi Bob-that’s exactly what I did for a while now (having three kids by now there’s not much money left at the end of the month). We (as acouple) translated a book and several songs, cooked meals, tended cildren, listened, helped moving, took people shopping, were shoulders to lean on or external backbones for people who were mourning, mounted lamps and other electrical stuff, took photos of several happenings, …you name it. All for free, because we thought, that’s the way it should be in a family. I’m NOT referring only to give money, that has always been the least in our point of wiew. But when we were so terribly in need for help, guess who helped us? Some neighbours (non-believers) whom we had neglected, because we were helping people in church all the time! It was very humiliating!
Now we try to hear from God BEFORE we roll up our sleeves, and life feels much more relaxed. And there are people we won’t help anymore unless God speeks very clearly to do so. I guess that’s what you wrote about not letting ourselves being used knowingly. At the moment we feel quite o.k. the way it is, but we’re making others angry again and again, as we keep saying NO.
And -no- I don’t compare myself to God. In comparison to Him we are all learners, and as long as we stay honest and improve what we learned to be wrong or imperfect I think it’s o.k. I’m so sure that God leads us a way where we can improve continually. And I’m not stressed about it anymore.
In this time of change in our lifes God gave us the idea for an email-service which we built up, not for the church, but for Him. It’s rooted in our deep conviction that everybody has a right to hear from God THEMSELVES and to have their own singular relationship with him, no strings attached, so to say. We couldn’t do all by ourselves, so we asked people to help us. Some were believers, others not. All did a great job, and all were paid according to the market-value of their work, because the Bible says that the worker is worth his pay. This is our principle, and only later on we noticed how good this was for us, too. This way now, there aren’t any strings attached for us! No emotional or social debts left. Good work for good money. And, as things go, for the subscribers there are no strings attached either, as they pay a small amount of money for our services. It’s all very anonymous and yet as personal as only the Bible can get. By the way - the name of our project is http://www.gods-promises.net. Would be nice to hear what you think about it.
Comment by: Bob
19Hi Gecko — Let me clear one thing up by saying I was suggesting that we look at God’s patience with us a model, not that we are expected to be on par with God or compare to the standard of perfection on our own. The though was more about that fact the God keeps on being good to us whether we always remember to thank him or not. His will is still done and his purposes served. The reason I brought it up was because even though you felt disappointed, you still did a lot of great things and you shouldn’t have to regret that. Jesus healed people and they walked away and never really thanked him. Some day it may hit these people that Gecko was really kind to them and they ought to do the same thing for someone else. You may never get a thank you but you’ve still done good things for the people that God cares about.
And I understand better than you think because I’ve done similar things in helping and then wound up in financial hardships as well. (I felt angry about it too, sometimes not just at the people but God as well) It is frustrating and I’m not disagreeing, I just don’t want you to regret doing the good things you did. You can’t give a gift with any real expectations, before or after the fact. It may be received in gratitude or it may appear to be unappreciated. We can’t control the receiver, but you can still be content in doing what you thought was right. Holding on to the ill feelings instead of feeling good about what you did is not the best outcome for you.
However, people have no business getting angry with you. You give as you are compelled to give by the spirit. If people are manipulating you with guilt disguised as spirituality then shame on them. Sometimes people do it out of need and don’t realize that the stress of their situation has made them handle it in an ugly way.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with getting paid for your talents if you choose. I just thing when you do it in the context of a congregation is has some potentially unpleasant strings attached. ie “Well my donations pay your salary so you should listen to me” type of stuff. So you have to be careful. I still believe in regular giving to support the church, including giving a portion of what you make from the church.
I like your site, I think it’s a good idea. You might want to consider mobile device delivery as well, that would be cool and you could do it through free mail gateways. Just athought. Kudos to you for having an idea and making it a reality, I’m sure it will bless many people.
Comment by: gecko
20Hi Bob-you’re right, perhaps we overdid it a bit. We were just so excited by the “big-family” thought. We now live much more relaxed and we don’t want to change that anymore. And we know that those people who are angry now never have been real friends anyway. Neither those who use stories like this Barrington Bunny to make us work. Maybe that’s why I triggered when I read this story. Probably the whole thing is about not laying strings on somebody and accepting no strings that others try to lay on you. But then there are people who don’t say what they really feel. What they say is according to some church-policy and not how really feel inside. And all of a sudden there are the strings you never wanted… Not so easy…
As for paying for church-work: In our church they pay the cleaning people, for example. They do a defined job for a defined salary. I should think this should be possible for other jobs as well, like running the restaurant, the bookstore, translating a book, whatever. I mean there IS money, and if somebody decides to donate his or her wages, so be it. I, too, believe in giving (money and time), but it should be out of free will. There’s a very subtile but strong pressure if somebody is only welcomed warmly if he works for free (otherwise he is only welcomed). At the moment to me it seems that in our church there was enough money and lots of free working-hours for a long time, so they started new projects all the time. The pastors were overworked, had heart-problems (more than one) and no time anymore for their sheep. Now money is less and people have to work more to keep their jobs, and many of these structures are really hard to keep alive. Some died already. That’s about my background.
Thanks for looking at our site. By mobile devices do you mean cell-phones? We thought they’re not so common in the States as here. And here in Switzerland there already is somebody who sends Bible-verses over cell-phones (yet without topics to chose from, without personal randomizer and without different languages). You see, we don’t know the American market and we did no advertising there. We concentrated on the German-speaking world, because that’s what we know and we have our networks here. But that does not mean we don’t want subscribers in the whole world! :) Thank you for thinking with us and letting me know.
Comment by: gecko
21Oh, I forgot, I don’t think I’m feeling bitter by now. But realistic. I’m not feeling bad about all what we did, not in the least. But we had to change something, otherwise we’d have been eaten up. And it’s realistic to analize and to act according to what we found out. I now think we have grown to know how to handle some people and situations. That’s all. I don’t wish anybody anything bad.
Comment by: Bob
22Hi Gecko - I am glad you don’t have bitterness about it. We all have to strike a balance sometimes so I’m glad you’ve found healthy ways to do that.
Churches are complicated organisms, you hope they are what they were intended to be but like any family sometimes they’re a little disfunctional and other times they work great.
I did mean cell phones. You can usually send email via cell carriers gateways for example 5555555555@tmomail.net would send an sms message the the phone number 555-555-5555 on the carrier tmobile. The receiver would still be charged whatever they are normally charged to receive the message, so you have to make sure and let them know that. Might be worth a look.
Comment by: gecko
23Hi Bob - thanks again. We do have this function in Switzerland, too, but I think theres a limit to the amount of letters per sms. And sometimes we use three or so Bible-verses in a row, so the promise makes sense, and they are defenitely too long then. But we will keep that option in mind, thanks a lot. We are really grateful for people thinking along with us, as the American market is probably very different from ours.
Comment by: Bob
24I didn’t even think about the character limit. That’s no good. Oh well. Most people have email capability on their phones if they really want it. Have a great weekend!
Comment by: gecko
25Yes - characters is the right word, Sorry for my English. For me it’s almost impossible to know all those specific words. But so far I’ve had a wonderful weekend and I hope the same for you.
Comment by: David QM
26And more for the story… I worked as a minister in a church in England in the early 80s. One Christmas I was passed a copy of The Way of the Wolf by a friend and read Barrington Bunny’s story to a family congregation. No comments or interpretation, just the story. I re-visited the church after more than 20 years a few weeks ago. The children from my time there are now grown adults with their own families. At one point I was chatting with five or six of them and one said “After all these years, what I most remember is that story about a rabbit who died in the snow.” Everyone immediately agreed, and with some clear,positive affection for the tale.
My own daughter has been ill for a year or so and is undergoing serious treatment in a Children’s Hospital. The physiotherapist member of the caring team, it turns out, was a young girl in that same congregation. I didn’t even know her then, and it was only by conversational coincidence that we connected our stories back to the church. She couldn’t remember me, but she did remember that story from a distant Christmas.
I can’t make claims for the story’s affect on their lives but the lasting and positive memories of the story for those children, now caring adults,is, like the story itself, thought-provoking.
Thanks, Martin Bell…
Comment by: Helen
27Thanks for sharing, David. I hope the treatment for your daughter is effective.
Comment by: Elizabeth
28Obviously, I don’t visit the Web very often, except for what I have to do for all the volunteer stuff I’m in! Thanks, Helen, for doing that posting of my message from last year. I’ve been reading everyone’s conversation and it’s very interesting, to say the least!
Oddly enough, I just came home from a church council retreat. We spent a half day learning about each other and how our individual talents can be utilized in accomplishing the goals of our church. Some of the conversations between Helen, Bob, Gecko & others about burn-out, giving til it hurts, etc. were EXACTLY what came up in the retreat today! We broke up into groups of 3 in one exercise we did, each of us having labeled ourselves with the one word talent we felt we brought to the table. My group was Involved, Inquisitive & Giving. In our group discussion, we said that all 3 traits are great traits to have in serving God and His church, but that all 3 can swing very easily to the other extreme where you’re pretty much giving up the farm in service to the church…as in not being able to pay the bills at home because you’ve given it all up in money and time at church. We have to keep reminding ourselves we’re not the only ones who have signed on to serve in the church; we are a team, and thank heavens & The Maker that my church in particular knows only too well that we ALL have a part, not just one or two of us.
There was tons more that happened this morning that relates to every comment that’s been posted here, but, well, my fingers are getting a cramp from all the typing. If any of you ever find yourselves in Richmond, VA, drop on by Ginter Park United Methodist, and you’ll see what I mean.
Happy Easter, all!
Comment by: Helen
29Thanks for your commments and the invite, Elizabeth!