Posted by Helen on: 10.22.2008 /
I was pleased how my workshop went at Off The Map Live in Denver.
Jim said to expect about 10 people. I was happy that about 13 people showed up. All women except for the pastor of the host church, which he pointed out!
I wanted it to be friendly, informal and interactive. We arranged the chairs in a circle. The photo is of my workshop, except me and the two people next to me (you can see the three of us in this closer up photo; I’m on the right)
I briefly said how I used to love going to church and never thought that would change, but it did. Then I asked the question “Why have you left a church, or why do you think other people leave churches?”
At that point almost everyone shared about why they had left a church. Some of the reasons were: different priorities (like too much money going towards the building), they or others not fitting or not feeling welcome, lack of community. I loved the comment of the person who said she came back from being a missionary thinking “I hate people”.
Then I talked about my reasons for leaving church and also my belief system.
Relationships and behavior
- Christians not being there for me in a helpful way when I was going through a hard time (mental illness) led me to question my beliefs about the Holy Spirit; if what I had been taught was true why weren’t they more different from other people?
- my own behavior: the belief system I was in had encouraged me to become the ‘doctrine police’ rather than being encouraged more towards kindness and otherlyness: it seemed like I was going in the wrong direction
Personal crisis
- mental illness affected my conversations with God; it turned out that what I thought was God talking to me when I was ill was mostly delusions
- after that my priority became being well and connecting with what was demonstrably ‘real’
Problems with my beliefs
- As well as the Holy Spirit problem I had one with hell. I didn’t understand how God could be not eternally miserable about people being in hell. This made me question if I could relate to God, since I would be miserable about anyone I cared about at all being there.
- I realized Christians didn’t treat me like I hoped when I was ill because their Jesus was different from mine. Mine was generous and gracious to a fault but theirs was more controlling. Yet we were all reading the same Bible. This led me to question whether I could really know Jesus - who was I to say I was right and they were wrong?
I didn’t know how to relate to God anymore; it seemed like he was an unknowable stranger; and I also felt uncomfortable about conversations with God that could be delusions. So I decided to stop praying. And in time I left church.
I talked a little about how it felt very freeing to me to be connected with all of life again.
Then I asked, how can we connect with people who have left church?
In this part I talked about the relationship issues that people deal with who leave or have left church. First, maybe they left because of disappointing relationships. Second, maybe they are upset with people because when they tried to discuss questions about their faith, others weren’t willing/able to do that with them. Third, which I’ve noticed, I can’t be friends in the same way with some people I used to be friends with because my change in faith is too upsetting to them. They are wonderful people but it’s just too awkward.
The point of that was to say people who have left need new friends and community.
After that there were some general questions and dialog. I was glad someone raised the issue that if we leave and form a new group, how do we stop that becoming exclusive like the old one? I said, it seemed to me that Jesus was good at not forming insider groups.
One person said that she was different from others at the workshop because she was happy with her church and hadn’t left. She had a couple of questions for me which I can’t remember. I noticed that she hadn’t had some of the difficult experiences others in the group had had with churches. I was pleased she spoke up even though her experience and perspective was different from others there.
Near the end one person, who is very involved in ministry, said, I just want to point out that several people here are still regularly part of faith communities even though we may have left churches; so for us it’s not really ‘life after church’. Which I was fine with - she was right. For me it’s life after church but not for a number of people at the workshop. Or maybe not, because I think someone also said “this is church”, indicating what we were doing right there at the workshop. Maybe I haven’t got away from church after all!
What I liked best
What I liked best about the workshop was that people interacted and felt safe enough to talk about their own experiences. For me the ideal workshop is an interactive safe environment. Not one person giving a lecture. I think people feel more engaged if they get to say something and if the environment is safe then they also feel affirmed and validated. And I enjoyed hearing what others had to say. I know what I’m going to say but I don’t know what they’re going to say unless I give them an opportunity to say it.
I did talk more than everyone else but even so I felt like my workshop achieved some of my goals for it. I was glad to hear from Kathy Escobar that some people had said good things about my workshop to her.
Comment by: Bob
1 10/23/08 11:07 AM | Comment Link |Hi Helen — I’m glad to hear it went well. I’m curious, what specific goals did you have for the workshop when you set out? Was it primarily exploratory or did you hope pose solutions or new directions? Perhaps some of the problem with “church” is our limited perception of white steepled buildings and sunday school class. If we’re the body of Christ then the church should be everywhere all the time.
In my experience, all people, christian or otherwise, will disappoint you at one time or another. Even when they have good intentions, it’s bound to happen. If we judge God’s promises based on the way his people act we’ll usually be disappointed somewhere along the line. That’s why for me I have to be really careful about separating frustration with God’s people and frustration with God. I try to make the distinction where and when I can. Don’t get me wrong, people can be wonderful too, but we’re all a mixed bag.
Thanks for sharing your personal insights and experiences, it is helpful in understanding you better. Hope you are feeling better also.
Comment by: Randy
2 10/23/08 3:13 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for this write up, H. One of the downers of this schedule was that if you presented a workshop you didn’t get to go to anyone else’s workshop. So now I feel like I got to sit in on yours…through your eyes. Thanks for that gift!
Comment by: Helen
3 10/23/08 3:59 PM | Comment Link |Bob wrote:
That came up in the workshop.
I hear what you’re saying but that wasn’t the issue for me. The issue was, I couldn’t discern any difference between ‘God’s people’ and everyone else, so that made me question whether the Holy Spirit was real.
If everyone is behaving basically the same way it makes more sense to me to think they are all the same than that some are supernaturally empowered by an infinitely powerful Being.
You’re welcome and thanks.
Sometimes I feel fairly ok, sometimes I don’t - that’s about the best I can tell you. Thanks for hoping.
Comment by: Helen
4 10/23/08 4:17 PM | Comment Link |Thanks Randy - as you say, the downside of leading a workshop is not getting to go to the others. However the most we could go to is one even if we weren’t leading, I suppose. I’m glad you enjoyed my write-up!
Of course there’s more than one opportunity to hear a rock star like you who is presenting in one of the Main Venue sessions as well as a workshop :)
Comment by: Bob
5 10/23/08 8:20 PM | Comment Link |Helen — Thanks for getting back to me. I’m still curious about what you hoped to accomplish and what direction you think you’ll take it as time goes by. Where is the Helen movement headed?
You bring up an interesting point. I think is is a failure of modern christians. People need to be able to admit their fallibility, it’s part of our need for Christ. It’s arrogant to walk around with any sense of of entitlement at all but people do. I’m not so sure that all people are basically behaving the same way, but we’re all capable of behaving equally poorly and equally well. There’s always the question of motivation as we’ve talked about before, but if the result is good it’s hard to argue with.
The point is that we can’t do everything right, so we should be merciful to others and be thankful that there is mercy for us. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive to live to a more loving standard and a moral code. But we regularly need to remind ourselves we aren’t any more or less deserving than the next guy.
I know that doesn’t sync with where you are now, just explaining my point of view. I will keep hoping, I’m sorry you’re not feeling better than you are. Take care.
Comment by: Helen
6 10/24/08 4:55 AM | Comment Link |Bob, sorry, I forgot to answer that question about what I hoped to accomplish.
My main goal for workshops really is that they’re interactive. If that happens then people feel like they got something out of the experience no matter how it went.
In this one I also planned to tell some of my story.
I wasn’t sure how it would go because I thought there might be people there who personally identified with ‘life after church’ in some sense. Since there were that made it more of a shared experience situation than a ‘here’s how you can connect with people like me’ - which is how I thought it might go if people there had experiences very different from mine.
Although the other people there still believe in Jesus I’ve noticed before that people like them who’ve left churches similar to the ones I used to go to have a lot in common with me.
As for where the Helen movement is headed, I don’t know. One thing I remembered at this conference was how much safety matters to me. I want to be a safe person and I want people to have safe places they can share. My favorite thing about my workshop was that people evidently felt safe enough to share about their own experiences. When communities are unsafe it subverts the whole point of community, I think. Safety doesn’t mean everyone agrees - instead it means when they disagree they still respect each other and listen to each other. So if I have a movement maybe it’s creating safe space for dialog and respect.
What you said about Christians - I still think you’re talking about something different from me. The Christians I knew didn’t have a sense of entitlement; they weren’t making the mistakes you mentioned. It’s like a store charging twice as much for coffee because they say they use a special process; yet the coffee tastes the same to me. My conclusion will be “whatever you say, I can’t tell any difference so as far as I’m concerned this is the same as the cheaper stuff, no matter what you say about special processes’. The ’special process’ I was taught about, that Christians are empowered by the Holy Spirit, makes no difference I can discern. I know there are lots of things that do work, like motivational speaking, and being inspired by an excited friend - when people say what the Holy Spirit has done for them, to me there are psychological explanations and this is substantiated by seeing them work equally well in secular contexts.
That’s what I’ve observed, anyway. I don’t like to argue with Christians about their beliefs and experiences; that’s not part of ‘my movement’ :) When I do get specific about my own current beliefs it’s more that I’m trying to clarify where I’m at and why I’m not more Christian than I am - not that I’m trying to ’sell’ my own perspective to others.
I feel somewhat better today - again, thanks for hoping!
Comment by: Bob
7 10/24/08 1:02 PM | Comment Link |Hi Helen - Thanks for the insights. That sounds like a good plan, everyone has a different experience but the commonalities and differences can be shared to help people process where they are.
I was really thinking about two things you said when I wrote the last post. The first was regarding the lack of difference in behavior, the second was more specifically on how you were let down by the christian community. When we accept God’s graces but fail to pay them forward, that is a form of entitlement. You hoped people would respond in a Christ-like way and they did not. From what you said it sounds like it’s one of the things that made you start to question your faith in general.
Relative to the point you were making, you saw no better behavior from them than anyone else. Perhaps worse because you expected better. You didn’t see the holy spirit at work in the people the way you thought you should. I do understand what you mean, I see it in myself. I do think I see the spirit at work in people as well though. Things that you can explain away as you mentioned, but I still see differently.
Hey you’re not uninviting me to the party are you ;) We don’t argue we just discuss.
That is good new! I hope it persists and you have a good weekend.
Comment by: Bob
8 10/24/08 2:55 PM | Comment Link |Helen - I looked back at that third paragraph and my writing is so choppy it’s like I’m recapping a sporting event. Sorry about that, I was trying to summarize what I thought you were talking about but it’s a bit incomplete and fragmented. So please preface that paragraph with a “what I think you were describing relative to the point you were making was that you…” and fill in the gaps as best you can. Thanks.
Comment by: Helen
9 10/24/08 6:48 PM | Comment Link |Bob, no worries - I understood your third paragraph and yes that was what I was saying.
And I understand that you see it differently. I’d expect you to.
And you’re not uninvited - I agree that we’re discussing, not arguing :)
Comment by: gecko
10 10/25/08 2:44 AM | Comment Link |Hi - you two. Helen, you wrote that christians do work equally well than non-christians in a secular context. Here is something to think about: I’ve talked to people here in Switzerland who never would employ a christian anymore. They say christians are so unflexible and so taken up by their church that they cannot do their work properly. The urge to evangelizise is stronger than the interests of the firm, and it’s just impossible that the holy spirit makes good everything they leave out. We had similar experiences with our project, and it made me very sad.
Comment by: Helen
11 10/25/08 8:29 AM | Comment Link |gecko, actually I was talking about methods that work and saying secular methods work (i.e. help people) as much as Christian methods, in my experience.
I agree that what you heard is sad. I do believe some Christians are hard working and support the interests of the firm, as they should, since they are being paid to do so. I’m sorry that the people you’ve talked with have experienced other Christians who don’t take their work responsibilities seriously.
Comment by: Bob
12 10/25/08 9:32 AM | Comment Link |Hey Gecko — That’s interesting. Here in America people are less inclined to bring it up at work (in my experience) unless the workplace is somehow affiliated with ministry and then it becomes very public. People have all kinds of excuses for not doing their jobs, and ministry could be one, but I don’t think to the extent you were indicating. Is your country a very openly religious place? Here a lot of people are church goers on Sunday but that’s the extent of the outwardly public faith. I think we may have stumbled off topic a bit again though. Sorry Helen, my fault. Have a good weekend everyone!
Comment by: gecko
13 10/26/08 6:07 AM | Comment Link |I agree with you Helen, secular methods work about the same as Christian ones. According to the Bible this shouldn’t be so and I have thought a lot about it, but I haven’t found any solution. I just know that some people rather not go to any church-programm because they fear a hidden agenda, but this cannot be the main reason.
In our country there are not so many church goers anymore. A few churches like Roman Catholic and Reformed (founded by Luther, Calvin and Zwingli) are kind of official, but even there not more than 10% of the members appear on an average sunday. Others, like the pentecostals are known as “free” or “fundamental” churches. They have better rates. And they encourage their folks to wear their faith on the sleeve, to evangeligize much, to reach as many people as they can. And sometimes this takes weird forms…
I’m convinced that most christians really do hard work and take their responsabilities as they should. And it’s not bad intentions if some of them fail. For example I know several personally who did a great job and in their free time they served in church (they were elders, did counseling, did courses, lead groups, preached sometimes…) and then burned out. They could not work for several months. The insurance of their employer paid for the medical costs, but the company pays the insurance-fees. As it’s not allowed here to fire an ill person, they were reintegrated, sometimes at a lower level. As much as I appreciate this system, I do understand bosses who want to eliminate this risk.
And of course you have always the odd ones. Sayings like “I cannot do it, but with the help of the Holy Spirit I can” don’t substitute solid schooling. As well as it’s not o.k. to prolong the coffe-break to an hour or so with the reason to tell somebody the gospel. I mean, put yourself into the boss’ (of a secular company) position!
And I think the more fundamental a church is, the more of those both groups you have.
Comment by: marion
14 10/27/08 2:37 AM | Comment Link |thanks Helen
that was very helpful…
one comment reminded me that I began having problems fitting into congregational church after I had spent 2 years in mission [84-86], and always felt on the edge of things after that…having mixed more in the world with so many needs that many in the churches did not connect with, and peoples that many in the churches did not mix with or talk like or understand.
Plus I began to see that some fundamentalist evangelicals talk more about ‘them’ being a problem [or what 'they' i.e. 'the world' does, being a problem], [i.e. moralising], than seeing them as fellow human beings, or, maybe, a ‘target’ to be won for Christ, instead of simply loving people because they/we are made in God’s Image too and need love.
Comment by: gecko
15 10/29/08 1:07 PM | Comment Link |Thanks marion for putting it so clearly. It’s exactly what I see, too, and what makes me keep a bigger distance to our church at the moment.
Comment by: Helen
16 10/29/08 1:09 PM | Comment Link |Thanks for your comments, marion and gecko.
Comment by: Bob
17 10/29/08 7:37 PM | Comment Link |Hello H,G,and M — I think maybe you hit on one of the reasons we come here and talk. Church can be great but it can also feel more like a religious system. Now that’s probably all my fault and not the churches at all — but there’s a disconnect with what we should be and what we are. That makes me question the system. Not God, but the system in which we try to engage God and serve people. Does that make sense?
Comment by: Helen
18 10/30/08 9:43 AM | Comment Link |Hi Bob,
Some people in my workshop said that what we were doing was ‘church’ - and certainly I would like to think of church as a place where safe dialog can occur.
Hopefully it does in some churches.
Comment by: gecko
19 10/30/08 1:44 PM | Comment Link |Hi again!
I never questioned God, but the system. Having a system does NOT fulfill me. I want to have more. I mean, I have experienced God’s healing in my own body and in our children’s as well. We had God’s guidance in our project and in other things. But I have not experienced HIM as a person. I mean, I still feel a huge distance between HIM and me. His guidance was very accurate, but it felt as if He made phone-calls from the moon. His healing power was here, but that’s not the essence of Him. So where is HE? Sometimes I feel like this love-sick woman in the Song of Solomon.
When we were on holiday in the mountains I stood “on the edge”, just above a great glacier, only a very steep heap of boulders between it and me. Suddenly I felt all alone in the universe and a very important thought crashed in: I haven’t met God in church. I’ve met a system that I still think is a good one. A lifestyle after the Bible with all it’s blessings. I’ve experienced God stick to His promises. I’ve “heard” Him through Bible-verses. But I’ve not met HIM personally.
Could it be that today’s churches, at least most of them are the ones that call themselves after His name but deny His power? So many new questions again!
Comment by: Bob
20 10/30/08 9:12 PM | Comment Link |Helen — I agree, if you are caring for each other I think that is a part of church. You have a ministry and you feel a calling to serve people in that capacity. You want to help people. I love my church by the way –it does a lot of things right. The people are great and it’s huge blessing. It’s just the closed wall mentality of organized religion in general that has me thinking. How can we serve the world in that context?
Gecko — I do know what you mean! I think we do disregard God’s power some times and don’t seek his presence in the midst of our business. I do want more and I also feel that I’m missing out sometimes. Sometimes I see God at work in the service and the spirit of the congregation. Often times I don’t see or feel it in myself which makes me sad. I don’t think it’s about feeling all the time, but there are times of great feeling.
We have a yearning for God. We’re just searching through the best ways to draw closer. I still think church is one of them. Sometimes I just want to move beyond our set parameters and expectations of what church is to see if we can experience God even more.
Comment by: gecko
21 10/31/08 12:41 PM | Comment Link |Bob - it’s not about seeking God more often or more intensely, it’s not about seeing God at work or just feeling His presence. It’s about HIM revealing Himself to me. Eye to eye and heart to heart. I want to be able to speak with Job: I have only known you by hearsay, but now my eyes have seen you!
Helen - you really have the gift of making people feel comfortable and at ease. Respect, acceptance, and real concern make it possible to be completely honest and to reflect oneself without fear to be classified. I feel at home here with all my questions. Thank you for doing this blog.
Comment by: Bob
22 11/3/08 11:25 PM | Comment Link |Gecko — I think I’d like that too, I’m just not sure it works that way on this side. If you manage it somehow I’d definitely enjoy hearing about it. For me now, I want to be more like Christ than I am —be closer to God than I am. Face to face would be beyond my comprehension. Sometimes I just want to feel closer than I do now. So your goal sounds a bit better than mine but this is what I am pursuing now. If you think of it pray for me and I’ll do the same for you. Thanks.
Comment by: gecko
23 11/4/08 5:18 AM | Comment Link |Yes, Bob, it sounds amost haeretic, I know. But in the Bible it’s promised, that if we near God He’ll near us. I want to be more like Jesus, too. What did Jesus? He went around, preached, healed and had absolute dominion over demons and angels. O.k., He’s the Son of God, but I’m God’s child, too! I just cannot see how I should do greater works if I don’t even have the same relationship with the father. Jesus said, I don’t do nothing except I SEE the father doing it. So don’t you think we ought to see the Father at least sometimes? I know it sounds radical, but we life in a radical world!
Comment by: gecko
24 11/4/08 1:42 PM | Comment Link |And I’ll pray for you Bob, for sure.
Comment by: Bob
25 11/4/08 4:57 PM | Comment Link |Gecko — Well I certainly admire your zeal! I know I’ve been guilty of not expecting the full extent of God’s promises so perhaps I need to be a bit more like you. I’m just not sure that we can see God that way but maybe we can. Only God know for sure. Keep and trying and let me know.