Posted by Helen on: 11.20.2008 /
I stopped going to church just over three years ago because church was no longer a meaningful experience for me. Just when I was thinking it was time to stop going the senior pastor resigned. I decided my last Sunday would be his last Sunday because I wanted to hear his last two sermons, but apart from that my decision to stop going didn’t have anything to do with him resigning.
Apparently it generally takes a church like my ex-church at least two years to find a new senior pastor. In this case it took almost three. In August this year I ran into a friend on the pastoral search committee who told me with excitement that they were very close to choosing a new senior pastor.
The congregation approved their choice and invited Todd to be their senior pastor. He and Katie and their three children moved here and Todd began actively serving as the pastor about a month ago.
I was happy for my ex-church that their search was over and that my friends were excited about the new pastor. I discovered Todd has a blog and started reading it.
I didn’t expect to meet Todd or Katie.That changed last week when I posted a comment on Todd’s blog. Todd responding by emailing me and inviting me to have coffee with him and Katie at his house this morning.
I was surprised and pleased that he actually wanted to meet me. Then I was nervous - mostly because thinking about my ex-church stirred up all sorts of memories. Not because I was seriously worried about meeting Todd and Katie, because Todd’s email was very friendly and respectful. He gave me nothing to be worried about. I think I was mostly worried about myself and what I would say. I didn’t want to come across as ‘a whiner’.
I probably did whine a bit but overall I had a wonderful time. Both Todd and Katie are as friendly as can be. I listened to some of Todd’s sermons online after he emailed me and appreciated his positive spirit and the careful gracious way he talked about the culture. What he said was refreshingly free of presenting the church as a persecuted minority and of painting the culture in the dire apocalyptic terms I’ve heard in some other conservative circles. After what I heard in the sermons and what I experienced with Todd and Katie this morning I’m excited about what them being at my ex-church will mean.
Todd was kind enough to ask me if I had any suggestions about the church. I suggested emphasizing opportunities to serve in the community. They both said I was welcome at the church, which I appreciated, but I don’t think church services would work for me any better than they did when I left.
I hope I’ll have another opportunity to chat with Katie. She had some time to talk but also was making sure the children got where they needed to be.
Comment by: benjamin ady
1I really hear you. Part of the reason I don’t go to church is that I don’t like the way I think/react when I’m there.
I’d love to hear more about what this means.
Comment by: Helen
2Benjamin, I’m excited because Todd and Katie share your delight in getting to know people. They’re clearly comfortable around people of other faiths, from other cultures and enjoy making friends with them. They’ve already made friends with some neighborhood families of other faiths and cultures. Just by being themselves they are great role models for other people at my ex-church.
I’m also excited because they were curious about my story even though it’s one of leaving my faith and leaving the church they just became part of and because they listened to it respectfully and with empathy.
I’m excited because they were down to earth and real. Todd writes about the Bible on his blog and preaches about it - he is clearly passionate about it - but with me he was ‘context sensitive’ - he didn’t use Christianese at all.
Katie referred to ‘the Lord’ and ‘a miracle’ occasionally as she was sharing some of her story but that doesn’t bother me at all - I would rather people share their stories in the way they experience them than feel they have to change what they say because of my beliefs/lack thereof.
I’m also excited because Todd referred to old school/new school in a way that indicated old school is the beliefism OTM wants Christians to move away from and new school is the focus on community involvement and social justice more commonly associated with the emerging church - but it needn’t be.
I’m excited because I know from talking to a number of friends at my ex-church while they were searching for a pastor, that they were ready for the church to go in the direction I think Todd and Katie will help it go - a more community-friendly one.
And I’m excited because I would love to see conservative Christians adopting some of what I think is best about the emerging church, and with Todd and Katie on board I think that’s going to happen at the church I used to go to, in my own neighborhood.
Does that help clarify? :)
Comment by: Joyce
3I would rather people share their stories in the way they experience them than feel they have to change what they say because of my beliefs/lack thereof.
Helen, you are more tolerant of Christians than they are taught to be of you as an agnostic (I presume). To them— however nice you are—you are “lost” and need God’s saving grace.
This is what disturbs me about religious faith: the certainty of ones “special” status—a superior status that denies alternative world views.
Comment by: Bob
4Hi Helen — That sounds like a cool experience. It’s always great to meet people with fresh perspectives and find what is unique and different about their approach. It was good of you to meet with them too and I bet you shared some really helpful things with them.
Joyce wrote:
Joyce — sometimes I have a hard time discerning whether I feel a certain way because I don’t “fit in” with someones’ beliefs, or if people are genuinely looking down on me because I don’t “fit in” with their beliefs. I can safely say I’ve felt the way you have in the company of people of faith and atheists alike. Within my own faith (I am a follower of Christ) I may not agree with certain interpretations of scripture or have the most fundamental viewpoint. If you don’t toe the line you can feel like an outsider. If you’re a believer among atheists you are inadvertently mocked with “fairy tale” comments and allusions to your intellectual inferiority. Sometimes it’s a function of people being insensitive to those that don’t share their beliefs, other times it’s prideful or mean spirited.
The one thing I will say is that if Christians behave in a Christ like manner there is no room for pride or entitlement. In other words, nobody is better than the next guy or more special, nobody deserves heaven more than the next guy. So it’s not a matter of anyone being superior. It’s simply a gift and a choice. When we remember that as followers of Christ our attitude should be grateful, accepting of others, and kind. So while we may have confidence in our belief system it should never be used to make anyone feel less important to God. Quite the opposite, we’re supposed to be letting people know that they all matter and are special to God.
Comment by: benjamin ady
5Yes. As usual, you’re awesome. =)
Comment by: Helen
6Joyce, some Christians (including Todd and Katie and many Christians I’ve met through Off The Map) are very respectful of where I’m at and don’t make me feel I’m not ok because of it. I enjoy being around them. It’s uncomfortable being around Christians who either feel they need to try to change my beliefs or can’t help being upset about my beliefs even if they aren’t actively trying to change them. I don’t necessarily perceive them as thinking they are superior - I understand where Bob is coming from - but I also see how it easily can come across as superiority when a Christian says “I’m acceptable to God and you aren’t”. It still can easily sound superior no matter how much the Christian says the basis of their acceptability to God is not their own worth or merit.
“I’m ok but you’re not” seems to speak louder than “I’m only ok because God has forgiven me”.
Bob as you mentioned it’s not just Christians who sometimes ‘have the gift’ of making others feel inferior/outsiders.
Benjamin I’m glad my clarification worked for you :)
Comment by: Bob
7Well once again I used too many words for what you concisely summed up. A Christian shouldn’t say I’m acceptable and you aren’t. They should say we’re both unacceptable relative to God’s perfection but are accepted anyway. God loves us regardless, it’s just what we decide to do with his offer of reconciliation.
I think anything we feel on the outside of can make us feel less than good in a lot of ways. Even if people don’t intend us to feel that way, sometime we just do and it can’t be helped.
Comment by: Helen
8Bob wrote:
Because we filter things through our own perspective and experiences we can hear things that weren’t intended. As you said, that ‘can’t be helped’ - it’s out of the control of the other person.
However if they are paying attention and have good people skills they can quickly clarify what they did and didn’t intend us to hear. Minimizing the hurt caused.
If they don’t have good people skills or don’t care or think it’s up to us not to hear things they never said, or to deal with it ourselves if we do, then they’re likely to perpetuate cycles of miscommunication and hurt. Possibly without even realizing it.
Comment by: benjamin ady
9Well it is a two way thing, though, isn’t it? I mean that’s relationship and communication–me trying to say it in a way that you can hear what I’m saying, and you trying to listen in a way that you hear what I said. And vice versa =)
Comment by: Bob
10Helen — Agreed. A little sensitivity to some one else’s viewpoint can go a long way. Unfortunately, sometimes the more comfortable people become in their own views, the less they remember that not everyone shares or is comfortable with their position. Especially in groups. This is a big failing in a lot of churches. Theological and moral interpretation takes precedence or an equal position with the gospel and hampers the effectiveness of both. People hear positions and may feel judged, but in reality it’s often a difference in the basis of belief. If that’s never explained or discussed you can’t make a connection.
Comment by: Helen
11Benjamin, I agree; if it’s two way the likelihood of miscommunication is minimized.
Bob, yes, I think that’s why it’s good to be friends with people with different beliefs.
Comment by: gecko
12Faith is something between God and me, and I don’t think anyone should judge it. And it’s the same for everybody else. But I had very good experiences talking with people of another church or from another faith. Sometimes they just see things where I have a filter and am blind. But I’ve stopped to justify my faith. If that’s necessary, I close up. That doesn’t make me a favorite for many , but life is much better this way.
Comment by: Helen
13gecko, I understand about closing up rather than justifying your faith. I’ve found that sometimes it works better to change the subject or end the conversation than a have a conversation that doesn’t seem to resolve anything and as best I can tell leaves us both frustrated.
Comment by: gecko
14And life has so many facettes! It’s always frustrating talking with somebody who has just one subject, even if this is faith and the Bible. Take any two Christians and you’ll find out that they disagree on something. I don’t know how it is in America, but here often Christians tend to look for differences and start trying to “convert” the other. I’d rather have a new nice idea for arts and crafts, cooking, furnishing, teaching, hiking, photographing, … you name it. Life could be so much nicer if people could respect the other and his/her opinions or viewpoints.