Posted by Helen on: 01.28.2009 /
I just watched Ted Haggard on Oprah. I was expecting him to say things that annoyed me but he didn’t.
I liked him better in this than anything else I’ve ever seen of him. He seemed relaxed and like he was being himself and being honest. He didn’t want to go into specifics about his past but I’m ok with that.
He made bad choices for sure; but I felt sorry for him because I know what it’s like to be dealing with something your church community doesn’t respond well to. Or at least, a significant enough part of your church community that it’s difficult for you. I know what it’s like to have to leave when the last thing you want to do is lose your support network.
I’m glad he didn’t lose his family, that his wife stayed with him, especially since he had to leave his church community. His oldest two children were on the program and they said it was a relief to find out their father was human too. His wife and children also acknowledged the anger and betrayal they felt when the news broke.
He said he tried to talk to another church leader once about his same sex attraction thoughts and the other church leader’s solution was “work harder at the church”. Not very helpful!
Although I said in my last post he still seems to be in denial, I don’t think that now having watched him. I’m so glad he’s not saying part of him is dark and repulsive anymore. I don’t think he’s a ‘gay person in denial’ – his description that he’s happily married AND experiences same sex attraction makes sense to me. He believes God’s ideal is heterosexual monogamous marriage but that’s different from being in denial of his own feelings. And he didn’t say anything mean about gay people.
Now he’s back in his Colorado home again and he and his wife said people have been very supportive.
He said he used to seek Jesus but at his lowest point, after the news broke and he was contemplating suicide, Jesus found him. He said Jesus said to him (not audibly – it was an ‘internal knowing’) – NOW you’re ready to be saved.
And to me, he certainly does seem more saved now than he ever did before. Even though he may still have many things he’s working through (who doesn’t?)
Comment by: Jim Henderson
1You are very kind – of course I didnt see him but if I had I’m sure I would have felt some mercy as well.
Given the fact that he was in charge of the commuunity that didnt understand him I find it hard to feel sorry for him. Thats a much different position than someone at the other end of the food chain.
I still dont trust Clinton. I expect to see a book soon with this title
Comment by: Jim J
2The only thing I remember seeing about Haggard before was in Dawkins’ God Delusion documentary. He chased the old professor off the campus grounds, which I thought was a terrible witness. If he lost that self-righteousness, then he would be better off now than before.
Comment by: NG
3Having seen the show, did Oprah make any mention of the new controversy or Mike Jones?
Comment by: Helen
4Jim H wrote:
I hear what you’re saying and I hate to think how being a leader while in such denial affected the people under his leadership.
And he could have made the choice to be honest and step down before Mike Jones’ revelation forced him to.
Yet he did say he tried to seek help from peers and they didn’t have helpful answers. I was particularly referring to his peers/those over him as not being helpful/supportive. The Christian culture he was in, which isn’t just in his church, makes it hard to be honest about certain things. Which I think is unfortunate and goes against the whole point of, as Ted Haggard said, Jesus saying he came for the unrighteous, not the righteous. He said that was the verse that came to life for him once he started telling the truth and facing that his same sex attraction – and everything he’d done – was part of him.
Jim J, I didn’t like how he came across in that clip either. To me he came across as much less self-righteous on Oprah. And much more at peace.
NG, Oprah made reference to Mike Jones. Ted Haggard had apologized to him and Oprah read a written response from Mike saying how much he was hurt when he found out who Ted was. Ted said he appreciated Mike’s response.
The program seemed to have been taped before this week’s revelations; however it had a very short addition at the end mentioning them and giving a response from Ted Haggard which was that he apologized to Grant for his inappropriate behavior towards him two years ago and he apologizes again.
Comment by: jennifer
5i am a lesbian and a therapist who just watch ted on oprah. he is still in denial. why? because he played the word semantic game around how he defines himself. he spoke of not being gay or all straight then danced around where he fits (why not bisexual ted????? that’s the genetic profile you layout for yourself). yes, he can be bisexual and still faithful to his wife. but, by saying he’s bisexual he has to admit that our sexuality is natural and part of god’s design regardless of what sex one is oriented toward.
He also continues to use the “bible” as a definition as to how his “imperfection” of homosexual thoughts are wrong.
i feel sorry for people like this. doesn’t he know that the bible, even if inspired by divine inspiration, has been written and rewritten many times, over many languages, by men with many agendas. if god is real and perfect the surly he would know the genetic correlation with sexual orientation—after all didn’t he design it.
Comment by: Helen
6Thanks for your comment, Jennifer.
I see what you mean about his avoidance of saying he’s bisexual.
But I see that mostly due to disagreement rather than denial. He disagrees that same sex relationships are God’s ideal as much as heterosexual ones. Maybe he feels that the word bisexual is language which implies same sex relationships are as much God’s ideal as heterosexual relationships. So he doesn’t want to use it.
I do sympathize with his not wanting to be labelled or put in a box. Often the boxes are more limited than the range of human experience.
I suppose some Christians might play the denial card with regard to you – they might argue that you’re in denial of what God says about same sex relationships. I wouldn’t say that you are. Instead I’d say you disagree with those Christians’ beliefs.
I feel sorry for people who have beliefs about the Bible that make them feel bad about aspects of themselves that they can’t change.
Comment by: jennifer
7when i lived in colorado (just after amendment 2 passed) my jeep was set on fire right in front of our home. ted and all the other colorado springs “fundies” were hate mongering hard core at the time. what someone says about gay/straight/bi usually has an agenda beyond just ‘gay marriage’ (which, by the way, is a recruitment tool used more by right wing fundies than us gays).
anyone can ‘pretend’ to be attracted to the opposite sex (i did it for ten years and had two children). but, no matter how much i loved my ex-husband (we’re still good friends and i still ‘love’ him). nothing could change the fact that i was not, nor could i be, passionately ‘in love’ with him–it just wasn’t going to happen. i’ve been in the same lesbian relationship for 16 years. i’ve been completely monogamous (including her nearly dying in a motorcycle accident and neither of us being able to be intimate for over a year as a result). I am IN LOVE with her. she lights up my mind, body and soul. even if we never had sex again–i would still be a lesbian, i would still be attracted to her, i would still be in love with her, i would still lay down my life for her, i would still want her to be happy and do anything i could to help in her joy, and i would still remember the days when we made mad passionate love in a way that brought me closer to the divine!!!! this is romantic love. this is what it means to be a gay/straight/bi who do you fall made passionately in love with?
a person can take an oath of celibacy and never have sex again. this doesn’t change the fact that they may be oriented to gay/straight/or in-between. the reason this is so important to understand, is because people use the “gay is a choice” argument to abuse, and sometimes kill other people–this must be understood! for example, when the cops found out our next door neighbor lit my jeep on fire they also discovered the reason he did it: his daughter was playing with two barbie dolls as two mommies and he caught her. turns out (according to his now ex-wife) he was abusing his daughter and hitting his wife. his daughter was a friend with my daughter and saw that my daughter was not abused and loved by both of us. he needed to address his own stuff and not put it on us. this is exactly (it would seem) what ted was doing when he put down gays.
why can’t we just treat eachother with respect and worry about the ‘man in the mirror’ when it comes to beliefs?
Comment by: Helen
8Jennifer wrote:
It seems like Ted is in love with his wife and hasn’t been passionately in love with any men, so that approach would tend to back up his description that he’s heterosexual with some same sex attraction.
I’m so sorry about your neighbor. I don’t doubt that many same sex couples are better parents than many opposite sex ones.
Sounds good to me!
Comment by: Doreen
9“Same sex attraction” is the term the fundamental Christians bandy about to avoid using the terms gay, lesbian, or homosexual. It makes it seem more like a choice, and more about sex. I haven’t watched the whole show yet, but I noticed Ted used the SSA term from the get-go. It is the only term used by the “ex” Gay groups and by discredited psychiatrists & psychologists. They even call it SSAD for same sex attraction disorder.
SSA is not a legitimate medical word. It’s a made-up one.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
10I did watch the interview tonight and I agree with Jennifers first post word for word. That is my take exactly. I was not sophisticated enough to pick up on what Doreen heard but I bet she is right as well about the specific language Haggard used.
I’l bet the recovery community is saying “Why in the hell are you on TV – you need to be in groups and stay anonymous for 5 more years”
(IMHO)Ted is on TV for the following reasons
1) He is getting ready to write a book
2) He is getting ready to start a church
3) His wife wants the privileges of ministry back and is willing to trade her sanity for it.
Having worked closeldy with Sex addicts I have become attuned to when they are serious about recovery and when they aren’t
Ted isn’t there yet
Comment by: Jim Henderson
11One more thing- Ted did not divulge his “other affair” even though he appeared to be broken and could have done so on the Oprah show- I’m sure he knew it was going to break but he probably couldnt resist the thrill of trying to not get caught by Oprah just like he did with his own church.
I’m sure she was pissed aboout having to go back in Post Production and add the disclaimer and another (reluctant and fake) Haggard apology.
I get his brokeness and his sorrow.
I dont get why he has to go public about it (actually I do get it and it makes it harder to feel sorry for him)
Comment by: Helen
12Doreen, thanks for the language information – I didn’t know that.
Doreen, Jennifer and Jim, maybe I’m being naive about the extent of Ted’s recovery. I don’t know why he would have mentioned Grant in particular on Oprah since he had no way of knowing Grant was about to talk about his experience – especially given that Grant had been asked to keep quiet by the church. I didn’t hear Ted as denying there were other experiences; rather that he didn’t want to go into any details.
The clips Oprah played on HBO implied Ted was desperate for money. If he was being paid by Oprah and HBO that’s an obvious reason to do those shows. But it does also come across as rather narcissistic – a bid for sympathy. And Grant may well be right that Ted’s media appearances will reopen old wounds for all the people who were hurt by Ted.
I’m not willing to say that someone is in denial just because they’re a conservative Christian. I still say that’s disagreement not denial. But I understand why you are saying Ted still has a lot he needs to work on.
Comment by: Helen
13Here are a couple of links about Ted Haggard in the media:
Christianity Today interview with Alexandra Pelosi, who made the HBO documentary of Ted Haggard – Alexandra says Ted deserved what he got, and also that she was impressed by the power of the Bible in the lives of Ted, his wife and children.
USA Today article – in which the author quotes Alexandra as agreeing with Elaine that Ted’s wife is the unsung hero of this story. because she chose to forgive his betrayal.
Comment by: Helen
14Christianity Today’s reviews of the documentary:
by David Neff
by a former New Life Church staffer (I particularly liked this one – it seemed very balanced)
Comment by: benjamin ady
15could this be construed as unkind?
Comment by: David H
16Reading those articles stirred up some stuff for me. One of the things I have wished for my father was that he be quiet and stop trying to be a minister, stop trying to be a leader, stop trying to be the voice of God. But he can’t do it.
To not be those things is to cease-to-exist, in his view. But with those things comes access and temptation to the awful things he has done before. To him ministry is as much an enabler as service to God. Past evidence is he can’t separate the two things even though they seem utterly incompatible.
Part of me feels sorry for my father. Yet I think he would be a better person, better for himself certainly, if he would step away, disappear after a fashion, and realize that he isn’t being helped or really helping anyone else with ministry, public confession and all of the rigamarole of falling and being raised back up.
I’ve told my father (because I’ve heard him say it) that God needs janitors, too. But my father doesn’t want to sweep a church, he wants to lead it or, at the very least, be a leader in it.
I don’t know what to think of Haggard. He reminds in some way of Darryl Strawberry and all the times the former Mets star has fallen, then stood before the television cameras to proclaim how God has changed his life (for real, this time). Such displays are good for ratings, but I don’t really think they help Strawberry or any of the lost and confused people who may be listening to him.
I can’t help but wonder how Haggard’s life, and that of his family, would be different if he could just be a normal person for a while. That is a person with problems who has to deal with them without public scrutiny. But the lure of the spotlight is great and nobody loves a famous repentant sinner more than Americans it seems. Is it for any reason other than the hope they will fall again?
Comment by: Jim Henderson
17Per Grant – Why did the church ask him to be quiet? and didnt his affair with Haggard precede the male prostitute
Comment by: Helen
18When Mike (the male prostitute) came forward in 2006 he said Ted had been seeing him/buying drugs off him for three years.
Grant told the church about his experiences with Ted after Mike had spoken up. Grant met Ted in 2005, so what happened with him and Ted was concurrent with Ted’s dealings with Mike.
The church told Ted not to talk about his experiences so it’s not surprising they also said that to Grant – it sounds like they thought the church would recover more quickly if they weren’t continually hearing Ted’s escapades. That also fits with the current pastor’s statement expressing concern that Ted’s media appearances this week will reopen old wounds.
The church’s request to Grant could also have been because the church wanted to avoid further embarrassment and media attention on them. Who knows. At any rate the timing is that Mike spoke up before Grant, so the request for Grant to keep quiet came after Ted’s behavior with Mike was already known about and Ted was already sent away from the church.
Comment by: Jason Horton
19What were the mistakes he made? Marrying a woman when he is a gay man? Cheating on his wife? Lying? Acting the hypocrite?
Honestly I can see him driven to all these things by his circumstances and feel quite sorry for him. He seems to me to be trapped in a cage of his own making with no way to escape. Of course the story about him is all the way over there and I’m over here so perhaps much of the detail has escaped me but these are my impressions.
I wonder if he could be happier and what would allow him to seek that happiness?
Comment by: Helen
20Jason, he doesn’t think his marriage is a mistake – he and his wife both said they’re happily married. He regards himself as heterosexual ‘with complications’ (in his sexuality).
Certainly he cheated on his wife and lied about it; and he did drugs (I’m not sure how often – he said his counselor tested him and the results were that he wasn’t an addict) and lied about that too.
I feel sorry for him that he didn’t get good advice from his church about how to get help so he didn’t compulsively act out.
On the other hand once he was acting out he was the one making the choice to hide it until forced to admit it when Mike Jones came forward.
He came across as fairly happy now on Oprah and Larry King Live – and said he’s way happier than when he was acting out and lying. In the clips of the documentary he definitely was not feeling happy at times. On Larry King Live he said moving back to his own community a few months ago (I think that’s when?) and being welcomed and supported has helped a lot. The documentary was filmed while he was living elsewhere, which was what his church told him to do for a while.
On Larry King Live he said he realizes he’s going through process and he’s not done yet.
He said on both programs that he has thoughts about other men sometimes but he’s free from the compulsion to act out. To me he seems a little too certain about this. Usually once you’ve fallen into something there’s the possibility you could fall back into it and it’s better to be realistic about that than say “I’m completely free of that now”.
I don’t know how much interest you have in this – if you want to watch either interview, I think someone has put the Oprah program on YouTube and the Larry King Live interview is on Larry King’s site.
Comment by: Jason Horton
21I don’t want to sound too callous but Ted Haggard’s sexual exploits don’t really interest me. I’m more interested in what made him hide his peccadilloes. Was his motivation to hide systemic of high profile evangelicalism or peculiar to him?
Maybe some insight can be gained into what it is to be in the spotlight in a church community but “mere mortal” in all the normal ways that mere mortals are. Is there pressure to suppress natural failings and limitations and not let them out? Does this lead to a powder keg as an outlet for this is constantly denied.
Comment by: Jim Henderson
22I feel sorry for him that he didn’t get good advice from his church about how to get help so he didn’t compulsively act out.
Comment by: Helen
23He didn’t discuss his exploits in his interviews, for what it’s worth. He said he’s fully disclosed them to his family and therapist.
He would have had to step down as pastor for sure if his exploits had become known. The pastor is supposed to be a role model of good behavior. Of course no one is perfect but Ted’s activities definitely crossed the line into being something that would exclude him from qualifying to continue as a pastor.
He said in the interviews that he hid them because he was so ashamed of them and he was scared to lose everything – not just his job but his family. He thought his wife would leave him when she found out. She decided to stay with him but he couldn’t know that ahead of time.
Ted thinks the hiding and lying did have that powder keg effect of making it more and more of a compulsion. He thinks now he’s able to talk about his sexuality the compulsive part is gone.
I don’t think not doing something tends to turns it into a compulsion – it seems like trying not to do it and sometimes doing it and feeling bad about giving in is more likely to have that effect. I don’t think specific feelings necessarily need ‘outlets’ – if we’re living a balanced life we generally have choices and don’t have to do everything that we ever feel like doing. We can often say no to ourselves without any adverse effects happening. That’s how it seems to me, anyway. But if we feel terrible about something, struggle with it, sometimes give in and then feel even worse and beat ourselves up and hide that we’re doing it – then it’s likely to become more and more of a compulsion.
While I question Ted’s assurance that he’s completely free from the risk of falling into his former behavior ever again, I believe he feels much less compulsion now he’s stopped hiding it out of fear of losing everything and now he’s accepted that being attracted to men is part of who he is.
Comment by: Randy
24I wish I was more interested in Ted. But I’m not. And I think, as Jim has suggested, that Ted is probably wishing more of us would be interested/obsessed/addicted to his exploits and media appearances.
I’m going to try to avoid the voyeurism, personally (not that I think there’s anything wrong with being a voyeur, mind you…)
Comment by: Helen
25Why do you wish you were more interested in him, Randy?
Anyone voyeurs wanting to hear about Ted’s exploits from him will be disappointed because he wouldn’t discuss details.
He does seem somewhat narcissistic.
As I’ve thought about why I liked his interviews – I watched Larry King Live as well (online) – I think it’s because even if he’s still in some denial, the message comes across very strongly that it’s much better to get problems out in the open and get professional help than to hide them and just try not to act out by will power (or prayer). That dealing with problems is a process and takes a while and involves openness at least with those closest to you and the professional(s) helping you.
I think that message hasn’t permeated far enough into conservative Christian culture yet – Ted’s comments about how other Christian leaders at his church had no helpful advice, or were horrified at his hints of needing help underline that – and so I appreciate hearing it on TV. Even if at the same time it gives Ted more attention than is probably best for him. Because maybe it will encourage some other Christians hiding things to go get the help they need. I hope so.
Comment by: Eliza
26I can’t get too excited – it seems like the same old, fairly common, pattern. Charismatic guy gets into situation of power, starts thinking he can do things which would be forbidden to others, & get away with it. Does those things, hiding it with variable success. Ends up in downfall, contrite. Examples include Gary Hart, Bill Clinton, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, Elliott Spitzer, Bernard Madoff, Rod Blagojevich.
Seems like Haggard stands out because his extra-marital sexual activity was same-sex, and included drug use, and those features are more shocking – or titillating – to many. (And because he was an evangelical leader, but see above – prominence in religion has never been a barrier before.)
I agree that it’s better to get problems out in the open & get professional help, & churches may be more likely to try to hide the problems, but so does anyone who has something big to lose. The really interesting outcome would be to have a church leader “come out” as bisexual & confess that it’s been hard to come to this realization, but that he’s accepted who he is and will continue to serve as their minister – and to have the church hierarchy and the congregation support him through, and after, that. Now THAT would be an amazing thing to see!
Comment by: Jeff Eyges
27He’s still an evangelical. He still believes we’re all going to hell. That is all I need to know. Nothing he says after than is of any consequence. I’m really not interested in his voyage of self-discovery.
He was also one of Bush’s chief fundamentalist enablers, and bears a tremendous weight of responsibility for the mess in which we find ourselves. Has he “sought forgiveness” for that? Of course not – because he doesn’t believe he did anything wrong. It wouldn’t even occur to him.
He’s still a hateful tool. That hasn’t changed merely because he’s experienced a little of the suffering he inflicted upon others.
Comment by: Doreen
28Helen heard Ted say
I heard him say this also. If he has thoughts of other men, but enjoys being married to his wife, he bisexual. He may not want to use the word, but that’s what he is. I was a lesbian long before I ever was involved with a woman. In fact, I knew I was a lesbian long before I ever even thought about a woman “that” way.
I think the healthiest thing for him and his family right now would be for him to stop being a media whore, but I don’t see that happening. I think that’s his REAL attraction!
Comment by: jennifer
29ok it’s been a few days and i look back on this and wonder: why isn’t anyone addressing the methhead thing? why are people so titilated by their homophobia that they haven’t even looked at the more serious issue. i’ve lived three years in a border town and meth is a serious issue. people are dying as a result of this drug. not just from doing it but the crimes associated with the mex cartel are horrible. ted doing this drug demonstrates the true nature of his pathological narcissistic antisocial personality.
i just hope he isn’t making money from all this attention.
Comment by: Helen
30Jeff, as you say, Ted’s Christian beliefs have not changed.
Doreen, I expect you’re right that the media attention is not good for Ted.
Clearly Ted doesn’t want to say he’s bisexual, otherwise he would have said it in the interviews. I don’t know exactly why he’s avoiding that word. If all it means is, having some attraction to both sexes then clearly he is bisexual. But for him I suppose it must have connotations beyond that, since he’s so intent on avoiding that label.
Jennifer, that’s an excellent point – taking drugs is very serious, so why has so much more been made of Ted’s homosexual behavior than his drug use?
Comment by: Jeff Eyges
31Jennifer, that’s an excellent point – taking drugs is very serious, so why has so much more been made of Ted’s homosexual behavior than his drug use?
Because in their world, that’s the cardinal sin. They’ve spent twenty years railing against the “homosexual agenda”, positioning gay people as the embodiment of everything they’re against. When one of their own comes out of the closet, they regard it as the ultimate act of betrayal.
Frankly, I think there are a good deal more of them in the closet than anyone realizes. The ones who make the most noise about the “gay agenda” – those are the ones who harbor the most serious doubts about their own sexuality.
Comment by: Jason Horton
32Actually I find his drug use much less reprehensible than the way he lied to and treated the people who trusted him the most. The drug use, though illegal, really only harms him directly. Indirectly it funds those who harm others and enables others to harm themselves.
His sexual behaviour seems to have hurt no-one but his treatment of his sexual partners has certainly hurt them. The cycle of acting out and repressing his sexuality has hurt him and others an awful lot. Yet none of these betrayals have been on the same scale as the deceit of those who followed and trusted him within the church.
His sexual behaviour isn’t that bad, there are Catholic priests who have really caused harm with their sexual urges and been protected by their church. His drug use is essentially personal. He lied and lied and lied not just to his family and his parishioners (not sure if that term fits for mega churches) but to himself. He spiraled through self deceit, homosexual proclivity and drug use while condemning these very acts in others. Isn’t his dishonesty and hypocrisy the greater offence?
Comment by: Helen
33Jason his deceit bothers me a great deal too.