Posted by Helen on: 02.12.2009 /
Last week David Kinnaman was speaking at Moody Bible Institute’s annual Bible conference (Founder’s Week).
One of the neat things about Founder’s Week, if you like conservative Christian Bible conferences, is that the sessions are open to anyone who wants to attend, free of charge, no tickets or registration required.
On the whole I’m not interested in conservative Christian Bible conferences any more but when I heard David was speaking in my hometown I decided to drive downtown to hear him. I very much enjoyed meeting David at Off The Map Live last year and I thought it would be fun to see him again. Also, I didn’t hear his whole talk at OTM Live because I was leading the Green Apron Team so I was in and out of sessions rather than sitting and listening. So even though he had told me in email that it would be a similar talk, it wasn’t as if I’d heard it from start to finish already.
David’s talk was based around the book he co-authored, UnChristian. Here’s some of it:
This is what young people really think of Christianity. Christians are
We tend to blame the media for the negative perceptions but in fact most people interviewed said these perceptions were based on their own personal experiences with Christians. 84% knew a Christian personally and only 15% believed their lifestyle was different in a good way.
We have a lot to account for in having been the dominant faith. We need to think about what Jesus would do in this changing culture. What if we have failed to understand the tension Scripture calls us to live in? Jesus says “Don’t judge” - he is clear about the consequences of judging as well as of sin. The tension is that of being perfectly bold (about what Christians believe) and perfectly sensitive.
Some Christians say “The gospel is supposed to be an offense”. Do you ever get the idea that people are using that as an excuse? Both Paul and Jesus criticized the hypocrisy of religious insiders. Jesus said “Your brand of [Christianity] is preventing people from entering heaven”.
Jesus said, “let your light shine so men will praise God”. And Jesus asks the world to hold Christians to account! In John 17:23 Jesus says “May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know you sent me.”
When Christians point the finger at outsiders, Paul says it’s your job to have love and be gracious and effective and let people see what God is doing in your lives.
Some Christians ask me “Why would you interview the unregenerate? How can they give good feedback?” That’s a perfect indication of where our hearts are at.
We can’t have a fear of the post-Christian, pluralist world. John said perfect love casts out fear. We’ve had a fearful not a godly response to the criticism. Our culture is changing – there’s more racial & religious diversity and we have to respond as salt and light rather than people who hole ourselves up in a fortress. Even if we get criticized for it by other Christians.
I’m encouraged by spiritual entrepreneurs. These young men and women have ideas and try to create programs and places to interface a broken world instead of being in our fortress. Like Catherine Rohr, who helps prisoners develop a business plan. She says “Prisoners are the most gifted entrepreneurs – they’ve just been directed the wrong way.” Instead of being judgmental let’s see people’s potential.
The next generation: I believe God will use young people to rescue us from our spiritual poverty so we need to invest in them. Just like Daniel – we want to raise a generation of Daniels. Do we realize what that means? Daniel was in Babylon for 3 years and even took on a Babylonian name. They will live in points of tension that we aren’t comfortable with, in media and medicine and science etc.
Conversations: if ours get us in trouble they can also get us out of trouble. Over and over again people would say Christians have talking points about their faith instead of being real and being friends. We can be an exception. People we interviewed told us “I know that most of the Christians I interact with are hypocritical etc…but there’s someone who is different.” How can we be the exception?
Outsiders: outsiders help us see our faith more clearly. We’re good at exporting our ideas but we aren’t very good listeners. We think we have all the right answers and we do have THE answer but if we don’t listen we’ll be out of touch with what’s going on in the world.
People say if we’re just more Christlike we can fix the perceptions; but what does ‘Christlike” mean?
Luke 7: a ’sinful’ woman anoints Jesus’ feet with oil and Simon comments “If he knew what sort of woman she was: offensive, damaged goods, flawed, sinner, prostitute…” How does Jesus reply? Not with a religious platitude like “love the sinner, hate the sin!” What did the woman think of Simon? Maybe “judgmental, anti-sinner, hypocritical, too political, out of touch, insincere?” Sound familiar?
Jesus said to Simon “the one who has been forgiven much loves much…the one who has been forgiven little loves little”.
At first we realize we’re forgiven much but after a while we get good at the Christian game and think we have less that needs forgiving than others.
I gave this talk one time and afterwards someone came up to me and said “That woman was repentant but most people in today’s culture aren’t repentant.” Really???
Being Christlike means every day we look for ways for God’s grace to flow through us because we’ve been forgiven much. At heart we have an attitude remembering we’ve been forgiven all the things we should be judged for.
From 1960 to today, unwed moms live births have increased from 5% to 38%. Will we judge and be disgusted or will we come alongside and rescue them and work with them?
Victoria is single mom who was in church for 4 years. “Everyone told me how to be a better parent but no-one bothered to really help me.” Jesus was just as concerned about unrighteousness as self-righteousness.
We’re dealing with an unrighteous generation but with a self-righteous church. How can we bridge the gap? How can we be a bridge not a barrier???
I was able to chat to David a little after the talk. He was just as friendly as when I’d seen him at OTM Live. The only difference was that he had to dress up more to speak at MBI :-). I was very glad I took time to go hear him last week. It was well worth it.
Comment by: Anisha
1I really like what he said too, Helen. Those are exactly some of the contentions I have with some Christian friends. I have even heard talk of some people “working on” their non-Christian friends, which I think is just not realizing the inherent value they have as human beings. I think I’d love to meet David, he seems really insightful about both perspectives, from both the inside and the outside.
Comment by: Helen
2Anisha, I think you’d love to meet him too! I hope you get the opportunity someday.
Comment by: Elaine
3Helen thanks for sharing. I, like you, missed David’s talks because of working the events. :)
David is delightful. Such a great sense of humor.
He really presents the message and the stats in an interesting and thought provoking way.
Comment by: Helen
4Elaine, as you say, he’s a great presenter.
I was hoping a recording of his talk would be available on Moody’s site but it isn’t even though almost all of the other Founder’s Week talks are. Maybe there’s a book/copyright issue - who knows.
After I went I realized he was speaking again the next day with Gabe Lyons, his co-author. It would have been interesting to hear them both but going on Thursday fit my schedule better anyway :).
Comment by: Bob
5I am keenly and painfully aware of these types of perceptions. If I’ve come across to any of you as that way please accept my apologies. Not for the things I believe, but for my failure to communicate them graciously. The unfortunate thing is that there are a lot of quiet, effective Christians going about there business in a humble way, but the ones that get remembered are the squeaky wheels or politically motivated ones.
The biggest question the church needs to ask is “how much do we look like Christ? and if we don’t, what needs to change?” I don’t know how radically the church will change in the ensuing decades but I believe that it will change. Not bigger screens or fancier music, but more transparency, more compassion, and more openness to care for people (not just far away missions but the people all around us in every day life) in the way that Christ does. That’s my hope anyway. We’ll see.
Comment by: Helen
6Bob, I haven’t felt like you came across in those ways online (which is the only way I know you). Thanks for apologizing, just in case. Just the fact that you’re so ready to apologize makes it unlikely you’re causing those perceptions.
David agreed that the church needs to be Christlike and then shared that story where Jesus says those who [continue to be aware they] are forgiven much love much.
Which ties in with your comment about more compassion and caring being the way to change things. I think many Christians agree with you and that gives me hope.
Comment by: Bob
7Thanks Helen. One of the things I really liked that he said was the we forget that we are in need of forgiveness just as much as (if not more so) than the next guy. People get busy doing church and get caught up in “Sunday mode”. If you want people to relate to you as a Christian person, they need to see that you are a regular flawed person, who happens to follow Christ.
People don’t like the notion that they need forgiveness but we all need it. You cannot navigate life without stepping on toes, making mistakes, and hurting people. So we all need to be gracious and thankful for the grace that we receive. Receiving grace from people is a great way to sample God’s grace as well. If we can’t give that to each other, what message are we sending? That it’s okay to take but not to give? That’s not so great.
Comment by: Helen
8I liked him saying that too, although it feels a bit negative to me - I’d rather frame it as, we need to remember that other people have as much value as we do.
I agree that we all make mistakes but it pushes my buttons too much to summarize people as ‘needing forgiveness’.
Comment by: trissa
9It’s been quite awhile since I’ve been to this site. I go through phases where I spend time on the internet and times when I don’t. Anyway, I popped by the site today and I was intrigued by this post. The talk that Mr. Kinnaman gave sounds interesting. Helen’s notes made me start thinking about how I perceive the church. As someone who grew up in the church, but now has no belief in God - although I wouldn’t necessarily call myself an atheist, because I don’t feel passion about my lack of belief - I often feel like I raised in one land, but now live in another. To my friends (those who were never Christians) I explain that I can still speak the language, but no longer understand the culture. Mostly, the longer and further I get from my Christian beliefs the more foreign they feel. Sometimes I think about things I did or said to “non-believers” or even other Christians and I start to laugh (although sometimes I want to cry). As a non- Christian I often find myself rolling my eyes at overly the religious things Christians say and do. I have several friends on Facebook who I either went to church with as a child or whom I worked with at a Christian summer camp. Sometimes I feel embarrassed for them, because what they post sounds either ridiculous or judgemental. Often when I am around people who knew me as a Christian they will say things about American culture as if I will simply agree with them. For example, my sister-in-law recently said, “Sometimes I feel like the world is going to end when I hear stuff like that.” She was referring to a silly pop song about a girl kissing another girl by accident. I did my best not to roll my eyes.
Anyway, my point is this: Many, if not most, of the Christians I know have absolutely no idea how to bridge the cultural gap. Many of them are simply trying to figure out how to wrap an old message into a pretty new package. Many of them simply want to argue their points and have little interest in listening or trying to put themselves in somebody else’s shoes. I wish they could step outside themselves and see the world in a different way. I wish that they could reconcile with the world instead of judge it. One cannot make serious changes in thinking in a short period time. My journey through and then away from Christianity consumed the whole of my twenties. If Christians want to reach out to the culture they have to stop preaching their message and instead live a life that speaks for them. They have to be friends, instead of walling themselves off. They have to listen and be willing to think critically about their beliefs. And most of all, they have to be willing to admit that they don’t have all the answers.
Comment by: Helen
10Thanks for your comment, Trissa.
I’m hoping that if people like David keep pointing the way for conservative Christians, it will make a difference.
Comment by: Bob
11Hi Helen — Apologies I’ve been absent for a few days. I don’t think needing forgiveness has to have a negative connotation or even a religious one. Humility is a needed thread in every belief structure. If we can’t ever say we’re wrong or acknowledge that we have wronged somebody at some point we’re not being honest.
Now you can say that it doesn’t matter to you and you don’t want or need that person’s forgiveness but in a sense you do. The person you cut off in traffic may not call you to forgive you, but by not retaliating or flying off (or ramming you) the handle in some small way they have. If it were just and correct to avenge every misstep we’d live in a pretty miserable world. So we forgive each other all the time — we let it go and move on. Sometimes we’re the one in need of forgiving other times we’re the forgiver.
Saying that we have the same amount of value doesn’t really say the same thing, although it’s an important thing to say too. Just my two cents though : )
Comment by: Bob
12Trissa wrote:
Well said. You’re quote should be required reading for Christians (or anyone really) looking to make a difference in peoples lives. Thanks for sharing.
Comment by: Helen
13Thanks for your comments, Bob.
I’m fine with all of this - I don’t claim to be perfect or someone who never does anything to others that requires forgiving.
The part which pushes my buttons is that the above means I deserve hell. Even though it’s the ‘normal’ human condition.
That’s the part about forgiveness which makes me want to reframe what it is to be human - the ‘requiring forgiveness makes us hell-bound’ part. It makes me want to avoid the whole issue of needing forgiveness because of that association. Not because I’m perfect but because of that doctrine.
Comment by: Bob
14Helen - I do understand that concern, I was just pointing out we can’t take it out the human equation just because we don’t like the ramifications or interpretations of the necessity of forgiveness through a specific religious lense.
For someone with no belief or need of God, forgiveness might be explained as a necessary cooperative evolutionary mechanism that evolved to preserve the species. For me a divine origin is more pleasing, for others it might not be. It’s not such a bad thing we need forgiveness, it’s part of being human.
You could take the same approach with “sinful” and the word “selfish”. Some belief systems state that we are sinful from birth. You can object to that but still say, if one believes in an evolutionary development of man, that we are selfish from birth. If our greatest inherent instinct is self preservation how can we not be? We learn through socialization to be unselfish as cooperation is necessary for survival.
So we can come up with natural explanations for our characteristics (good and bad) that some might feel have been commandeered by religion, but that doesn’t make them go away or change who we are as human beings. As to why or how we view our dichotomies, we all get to wrestle with that on our own. It taxes me sometimes too but I think it has to do with freedom and choice.
Comment by: Helen
15Thanks for your response, Bob.
See, I don’t think of the survival instinct we are born with ’selfish’ because to me, calling it that ascribes a negative moral quality to it, which I don’t believe belongs to it.
Once we are able to make moral choices then we are capable of being selfish. But just having a will to survive isn’t ’selfish’ imo, not in a negative moral sense.
I’m not trying to deny who we are as humans; it’s rather that I have problems with the negative spin on being human that (some branches of) Christianity put on it.
Comment by: Bob
16Hi Helen — I thought about that too, something along the lines of intent. If a tendency is inherent but not born of intentional thought is it really fair to convict? However it comes naturally to a child to hit another child when they’re mad, if an adult did that we’d say it was wrong so how is it different? It’s still wrong, perhaps it become more so when we realize it and do it anyway?
I think we’ve inherently got conflicting desires to do good and bad things from birth. It doesn’t mean that we’re bad per se, just capable of going either way at any given moment. What do you think?
Comment by: Helen
17Bob wrote:
I agree with all of this except I wouldn’t say ‘from birth’ because babies don’t have the ability to understand right and wrong yet.
It makes sense to me to have different expectations of humans based on their level of maturity. Children, for example, might do something because they discover it gets results but they might not realize that what they are doing hurts others. Because they haven’t learned that yet. And/or because their ability to understand is still developing.
Comment by: Bob
18Helen wrote:
Obviously a newborn can’t do too much damage, they’re not going to run out and buy a handgun. But as soon as they’re capable, they’ll probably shove another child without the full understanding that it’s wrong. I don’t think in most cases that’s environmental, just instinctive. Something is wrong whether we have the ability to understand it or not. It’s just our level of consequence that changes.